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Zero Click Marketing

Amanda Natividad

Zero Click Marketing is a marketing strategy podcast about content marketing, audience research, and how brands grow when clicks matter less. Hosted by Amanda Natividad, Chief Evangelist at SparkToro and Co-Author of the book, "Zero Click Marketing," the show explores how marketers reach audiences, build influence, and earn attention in a zero-click internet. New to the show? Start with Episode 2: What Zero Click Marketing Actually Is.

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#43
Tuesday · 8 min
[Replay] Zero Click Marketing — Explained for the Normies!
Hi friend! Are ya new here? Fear not. In this short episode which was inspired by desire to explain my job to my mom, I break down all things zero-click for the non-marketers and non-chronically-online people. This episode originally aired in July as, “Zero Click Marketing for Your Mom.” I hope you enjoy it too! (My mom doesn’t know how to listen to podcasts.) In this episode: 00:00 — Zero-click marketing for the normies 01:09 — Paul Rudd and the zero click internet 02:41 — The broken bargain between platforms and publishers 03:50 — How AI accelerates the shift 06:00 — What my NPR/Planet Money interview reveals about influence 07:32 — Making ideas useful, clear, and memorable enough to travel Of course, you’ll learn all about this and more in my and Rand Fishkin’s book, Zero Click Marketing. You can order it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Walmart, and of course, through zeroclickmarketing.co/book. Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#42
November 3 · 39 min
Why PR Is the New SEO (Thanks to AI) (with Amanda Milligan)
What even is content marketing in the zero-click world? Spoiler: it looks a lot like PR, YouTube, and social media. Amanda Milligan, who leads YouTube strategy at Semrush, joins me to talk about what she's learned from working across SEO, digital PR, and content marketing. We discuss how/why PR practitioners have always been doing zero click marketing, how to build a smarter B2B YouTube strategy, and why the best-performing content isn't always the cleverest. Timestamps: 00:00 – Why great PR pitches require audience research (and a lot of work) 06:44 – What makes stories newsworthy? Lessons from earned media 08:34 – The digital PR principles that still work today 12:22 – Why AI is bringing SEO and PR closer together 18:14 – Building Semrush's YouTube strategy 21:51 – YouTube content for search vs. the recommendation algorithm 25:44 – Are creators withholding information to drive engagement? 31:42 – Will human-made content become a premium? Connect with Amanda Milligan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandamilligan/ Check out Semrush: https://www.semrush.com/ Check out Amanda and Semrush on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@semrush Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#41
October 27 · 34 min
Books Are the Ultimate Zero Click Marketing Strategy (with Ben Putano)
What makes a book worth reading, remembering, and recommending? Ben Putano, founder and CEO of Damn Gravity (and Rand’s and my publisher!), explains why books might be one of the most powerful marketing tools in a zero-click world. We get into why great books need one memorable idea, how to engineer word of mouth, why romance authors might be better at positioning than business authors, and how to market a book by starting with your biggest fans instead of chasing the broadest possible audience. Timestamps: 00:00 – Why books are powerful in a zero-click world 02:19 – What books can accomplish that other marketing assets can't 09:20 – Books that changed the way we think 17:00 – What business authors can learn from romance novels 19:29 – The dinner party test for communicating big ideas 23:06 – How to market a book before it's published 27:23 – Bestseller lists vs. actual influence Connect with Ben Putano: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-putano/ Check out Damn Gravity Media: https://www.damngravity.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#40
October 20 · 29 min
GEO Is the New CRO (with Ross Hudgens)
I tossed out the idea that “today GEO is CRO,” and it gave Ross Hudgens actual goosebumps, because he’d just written about the same thing. Ross argues that if you can convince a user to buy, you can convince an LLM to recommend you. Ross is the founder of Siege Media and author of Generative Engine Optimization, and we talked about what actually drives AI visibility. We discuss his research on more than 100 B2B websites, why comparison pages are associated with more AI referral traffic, and the limitations of AI attribution. Timestamps: 00:00 — Is GEO just SEO with a new name? 07:20 — Research: Why comparison pages are winning in AI search 09:23 — Is GEO the new CRO? 16:03 — Measuring AI influence when nobody clicks 22:37 — How smaller brands can compete in AI search Connect with Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/ Check out Siege Media: https://www.siegemedia.com Get Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#39
October 13 · 39 min
The Hardest Parts of Zero Click Marketing (Rand Fishkin returns!)
Rand Fishkin (my co-author!) is back on the show for a special episode about our new book, Zero Click Marketing. We talk about what surprised us while recording the audiobook, and some of the Zero Click Marketing ideas that marketers have pushed back on the most. We get especially fired up about attribution and post-purchase surveys and taking stronger positions in your content. Plus, learn how an expert like Rand is learning an entirely new kind of marketing as he builds his gaming company, Snack Bar Studios. In this episode: 00:00 — Why useful advice requires taking a position 03:55 — AI, gatekeeping, and the freedom to build things yourself 08:26 — Why Rand is deliberately making his content weirder and more human 12:00 — What marketers understand — and resist — about Zero-Click Marketing 14:24 — The problem with “How did you hear about us?” 18:50 — A surprise cameo 20:12 — Why free-text attribution surveys don't solve the problem 25:28 — The question to ask customers instead 30:09 — The opportunity cost of asking a bad question 31:23 — How Rand learned to market an indie video game from scratch 38:37 — Please buy our book. Or don't. We're very good at this. Buy our book, “Zero Click Marketing: How to Build Brands and Earn Customers on a Traffic-Starved Web,” at zeroclickmarketing.co/book or on Amazon! Connect with Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/?isSelfProfile=false Check out SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#38
October 6 · 27 min
The Marketing Skills AI Can’t Give You (with Sarah Stockdale)
Marketing keeps changing. But good marketing? Not so much. Sarah Stockdale, founder and CEO of Growclass, joins me to talk about what still matters as algorithms, AI, attribution, and the platforms change. We talk about what still wins, and one crucial skill you still need today. In this episode: 00:00 Why good marketing was never supposed to be easy 03:30 The fundamentals that still matter 07:15 Why changing user behavior is so hard 15:39 What “direct traffic” is hiding 16:15 When your marketing data is too good to be true 18:51 What still matters in the age of AI 20:09 Skepticism for… 22:47 How Growclass investigates direct traffic and dark social Connect with Sarah Stockdale: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahstockdale/ Check out Growclass: http://growclass.co Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#37
September 29 · 39 min
How Referral Rock Turns Customer Intel Into a Marketing Strategy (with Josh Ho)
Josh Ho, founder and CEO of ReferralRock, and I chit chat about marketing challenges and opportunities as of late. My fave part of this episode is when Josh explains how ReferralRock turns its existing customer conversations into an always-on source of audience research — using real customer language and anecdotes to shape strategy. (This happens about 15 minutes in!) We also get into why marketers need both audience data and anecdotes, what AI changes about qualitative research, and how the smallest, weirdest details can sometimes become the most memorable parts of a brand. Timestamps 00:00 — How Josh learned marketing through SEO and inbound 05:23 — How ReferralRock gets customers today 07:55 — When attribution is broken, what do you measure instead? 13:34 — AI search, prompts, and understanding buyer intent 15:10 — Turning customer calls into an audience research engine 20:47 — Creating content from what customers actually ask about 27:47 — Why marketers need “audiences + anecdotes” 30:02 — Blue spoons, memorable details, and creating word of mouth 35:29 — What does a “blue spoon” look like in B2B SaaS? Connect with Josh Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajho/ Check out Referral Rock: https://referralrock.com Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#36
September 22 · 52 min
Why You're Losing to AI and How to Fix It (with Wil Reynolds)
Wil Reynolds joins me to chop it up over what AI is changing — and what it’s revealing — about marketing, expertise, and trust. We talk about using AI without losing your voice, why accountability may matter more than “taste,” and how AI search is making it harder for brands to simply optimize their way into credibility. Wil also explains why he’d rather measure human trust than algorithmic visibility, how an intern exposed gaps in his own 25+ years of SEO experience, and why this moment in AI has rekindled the way he wants to build Seer Interactive. Chapters 00:00 — Human trust vs. algorithmic proxies 03:14 — Spotting AI slop on LinkedIn 06:23 — The upside of competition in AI 08:15 — AI, creativity, and owning your work 25:49 — Taste vs. accountability in an AI world 27:58 — AI search is forcing brands to bring receipts 34:21 — Why SEO and AI visibility aren’t the same 38:42 — Measuring human trust instead of algorithmic traffic 46:29 — Hiring for a world that’s changing again Connect with Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/ Check out Seer Interactive: https://www.seerinteractive.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#35
September 15 · 36 min
A CEO On Marketing in a Clickless, AI-Driven World (with Chris Savage)
Wistia CEO Chris Savage joins me to talk about how marketing has evolved in recent years, especially now as attribution keeps getting harder. We also dig into building sustainable content programs, finding opportunities in saturated channels, making the case for creative risks, and why some of the ideas that are hardest to green-light are actually the most valuable. Timestamps 00:00 — Why the hardest ideas end up being the most valuable 01:31 — Wistia’s sustainable approach building its podcast 06:38 — Let the audience choose the format 10:19 — Marketing in a zero-click world 14:02 — Massive opportunities in untrackable marketing 16:36 — How to pitch bold ideas to leadership 20:42 — Where Chris would invest if he were starting from scratch 28:19 — Brand search as a leading marketing indicator 31:05 — How marketers can manage up more effectively Connect with Chris Savage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjsavage/ Check out Talking Too Loud: https://wistia.com/series/talking-too-loud Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#34
September 8 · 28 min
The Most Human Marketing Channel Left (with Erica Bonser)
As AI makes it easier to produce more content, podcasting offers something increasingly valuable: unmistakable evidence of a real person behind those ideas. Erica Bonser, co-founder of Fan Club, joins me to talk about what success should actually look like for a new show, and how marketers can turn a podcast into a sustainable engine — without expecting immediate business results. Chapters 00:00 — Why podcasting feels distinctly human in the AI era 00:41 — What fitness brands teach us about identity and marketing 09:53 — Starting a podcast makes you a better communicator 11:34 — What should a podcast actually accomplish? 15:45 — Defining success and overcoming the “podcast graveyard” 19:10 — Why Erica isn’t worried about business outcomes yet 22:12 — The reality of sustaining a podcast 23:47 — Erica’s podcasting cheat sheet for 2026 Connect with Erica Bonser: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bonser/ Check out Fan Club Brands: https://fanclubbrands.co/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#33
September 1 · 12 min
As Content Gets Cheap, Credibility Gets Expensive
It’s never been easier to create content — which means simply making content isn’t much of an advantage anymore. Today, I talk about what AI changes about the creator economy, why credibility is becoming more valuable as content gets cheaper, and how marketers should evaluate creator partnerships beyond clicks and impressions. Chapters 00:00 — It has never been easier to create mediocre content 00:45 — How the creator economy has grown up 02:14 — As content gets cheaper, credibility gets more valuable 03:15 — Why creator marketing *is* Zero Click Marketing 04:08 — The prerequisite: authority with the right audience 05:01 — #1: Message transfer 06:24 — #2: Audience saturation 08:02 — #3: Asset value 10:01 — What the creator economy rewards now Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#32
August 25 · 57 min
What If You Can’t Prove Your Marketing Worked?
What happens when your marketing is clearly doing something — but attribution can’t tell you exactly what? In this conversation with Wistia’s Talking Too Loud, we dig into zero click marketing, branded search, word of mouth, recall, and the growing gap between what marketers can measure and what actually influences people. It’s a conversation about learning to work with evidence instead of expecting perfect proof — and it feels even more relevant now than when we recorded it. This episode was originally published on Talking Too Loud, Wistia's podcast about the brands, products, and marketing moves people can’t stop thinking — and talking — about. Watch the original episode: https://wi.st/TTLNatividad Explore more Talking Too Loud: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMCL9HnQdLDHx8xxzeorzmQ Learn more about Wistia: https://wistia.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#31
August 20 · 10 min
Field Notes: Reddit Citations Drop 80% in ChatGPT (Don't Care)
This is me reacting in real time to news from Promptwatch and Petra Labs that Reddit just lost about 80% of citations in ChatGPT. TL;DR: chasing platform behavior is not a good strategy. Other sources: Axios Semrush Profound Timestamps: 00:00 Reddit citations fell off a cliff. So what? 00:59 Your strategy shouldn’t depend on one platform 01:54 If your audience uses Reddit, Reddit still matters 03:10 ChatGPT citation behavior is wildly unstable 04:26 The boring winner: brand-owned websites 05:32 Build useful homes across the internet 06:36 AI visibility is a benefit of good marketing ZCM Field Notes are short reactions to news or observations of what’s happening in the field. Edits can be a little messy 'cause I'm doing them with my bare hands. Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads
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#30
August 18 · 11 min
[Replay] The LinkedIn Algorithm Is Basically a Party
LinkedIn’s feed has changed since I first published this episode — but the core idea holds up: the platform is trying to understand what you talk about, who should care, and what deserves distribution. In this refreshed Field Note, I revisit LinkedIn’s retrieval-and-ranking system, clarify what topical consistency actually means, touch on the new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature, and explain why the best LinkedIn strategy still looks a lot like behaving normally at a party. Timestamps 00:00 — What’s changed since the original episode 01:05 — Retrieval vs. ranking: the “two algorithms” caveat 01:28 — Why topical consistency still matters 02:20 — LinkedIn’s new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature 03:20 — Stop chasing algorithm hacks; become understandable 05:02 — How LinkedIn’s retrieval and ranking stages work 06:20 — Why LinkedIn is like a party 10:03 — The real LinkedIn strategy: predictable relevance Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#29
August 11 · 35 min
[Replay] Tell Your Execs: AI Rankings Are BS (with Rand Fishkin)
AI is new, yet somehow it’s already exhausting. Marketers are under constant pressure to adopt more tools, track more things, rethink their strategies, figure out AI visibility, and generally become smarter about a technology that keeps changing underneath them. So this week, we’re resurfacing a conversation with my co-author Rand Fishkin because it feels even more useful now than when we recorded it. We talk about how to make smart marketing bets when perfect attribution is impossible, what AI visibility can and can’t actually tell you, why “rank tracking” inside LLMs is mostly the wrong mental model, and where AI genuinely helps marketers — provided you know enough to recognize when it’s wrong. Most importantly, this is a conversation about keeping your head while everyone else is telling you to do more. In this episode: 04:20 — How to measure marketing when you can’t prove causation 07:11 — Why executives accept fuzzy measurement for traditional advertising but demand perfect attribution from digital 08:45 — Leading and lagging indicators for zero-click marketing 14:07 — Why AI actually makes zero-click marketing easier to understand 19:49 — Rand’s skepticism about AI visibility tracking — and the research that changed his mind 27:02 — What Rand learned about real versus synthetic prompts 30:52 — Using AI to analyze marketing data without outsourcing your judgment 33:45 — Zero Click Marketing does not mean zero sales Of course, you’ll learn all about this and more in our forthcoming book, Zero Click Marketing. It comes out this October, and you can preorder today at zeroclickmarketing.co/book. Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#28
August 4 · 13 min
5 Things That Make an Idea Stick
Marketers know how to distribute content. But getting a post, podcast, or report in front of people doesn’t guarantee that its central idea will stick. Today, we dive into the difference between content performance and idea portability — and I offer five qualities that help an idea travel beyond its original container: immediate usefulness, a memorable handle, and oh… guess you’ll have to listen to find out the rest. Timestamps 00:00 — Moving content vs. making ideas portable 02:07 — How the Paul Rudd example traveled 03:18 — Make it useful without the click 07:15 — Find the smallest complete version 08:51 — Make the idea applicable 10:21 — Give up control of the route 12:14 — Influence is bigger than attribution Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#27
July 28 · 8 min
Zero Click Marketing for Your Mom
The zero click internet sounds like marketing jargon, but the idea is simple: platforms increasingly give people answers without sending them to the original source. Citing my recent NPR appearance and using Paul Rudd as the leading example, I explain the zero click web… for your mom. Well, for my mom. Both, really. I also break down why the shift is convenient for users, difficult for publishers, and impossible for marketers to ignore. In this episode: 00:00 — Zero-click marketing for the normies 01:09 — Paul Rudd and the zero click internet 02:41 — The broken bargain between platforms and publishers 03:50 — How AI accelerates the shift 05:14 — Creating value without holding it behind a click 06:00 — What my NPR/Planet Money interview reveals about influence 07:32 — Making ideas useful, clear, and memorable enough to travel Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#26
July 21 · 7 min
Why You (Probably) Don’t Need Another Marketing Channel
Good marketing is not about doing more. I explain why every channel creates an ongoing obligation, how opportunity cost shapes modern marketing, and the three filters to decide what deserves time, energy, and attention. Timestamps 00:00 — Why doing more is not the answer 01:39 — What should you stop doing? 02:04 — Marketing channels are recurring obligations 02:56 — How maintenance overwhelms strategy 03:21 — The question to ask before saying yes 05:13 — When metrics should change your plans 06:47 — What can you stop feeling guilty about? 07:11 — You do not have to show up everywhere Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#25
July 14 · 25 min
How Smart Small Businesses Measure Marketing (with Rachel Elsts Downey)
This is what marketing looks like when perfect attribution isn't possible — and why that may actually be freeing. I chat with Rachel Elsts Downey, founder of Share Your Genius, to discuss podcasting as a business strategy, measuring what actually matters, choosing marketing channels intentionally, and why trust compounds faster than dashboards. Timestamps 00:00 Why podcast partnerships created six-figure pipelines 03:31 Why podcasting worked faster than traditional lead generation 04:10 Is launching a podcast easier today than 10 years ago? 08:46 How Share Your Genius measures marketing success 10:05 The question every marketer should ask before tracking another KPI 13:29 A partnership experiment that paid off (and where it went too far) 16:22 Defining qualified leads and knowing your ideal customer 21:37 How founders can accidentally hold back their own marketing 24:15 Letting data guide decisions without overreacting Connect with Rachel Elsts Downey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelelstsdowney Learn more about Share Your Genius: http://www.shareyourgenius.com Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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#24
July 7 · 30 min
Trust Is the New SEO: Marketing in the AI Era (with Kevin Indig)
I chat with my buddy Kevin Indig about what he’s learning in his AI research, along with generative engine optimization, and user behavior in tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, Perplexity, and Google AI Mode. Kevin explains why clicks are disappearing, why citations may matter less than brand mentions, and why trust is becoming one of the most important assets a brand can build in the AI era. He also explains “ghost citations,” how AI systems seem to read content, and why customer research is becoming newly essential. Links to some of Kevin’s recent research: The Fan-Out Effect: What Happens Between a Query and a Citation Timestamps: 00:00 Kevin on why trust matters more in an AI world 00:32 Why GEO/AEO may be forcing executives to care about better marketing 01:39 Kevin’s research: fewer clicks, more variance, and trust as the key ingredient 05:11 What “ghost citations” are and why they matter 14:09 The risk of AI slop and how synthetic content erodes trust 19:24 Tools and approaches for tracking AI visibility 22:03 What user behavior research reveals about AI search habits 24:50 What brands should measure in their first 90 days of AI search tracking 27:03 Why old-school PR metrics like share of voice and sentiment are back 29:05 Best way to stay in the know on all things GEO Connect with Kevin Indig: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinindig/ Sign up for Kevin’s Newsletter, Growth Memo: https://www.growth-memo.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius www.shareyourgenius.com
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