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Beneath the Surface

Shannon Beer

What if the pressure to 'be better' is the very thing holding you back? On Beneath the Surface, we challenge the myth that self-compassion means lowering the bar — and show you how caring more, not less, is the secret to becoming the person you want to be.

Hosted by Shannon, registered nutritionist studying a diploma in Compassion Focused Therapy, this podcast is your space for honest conversations about self-worth, emotional eating, body image, and doing meaningful work without burning out. Whether you’re a coach, creative, or self-critical high-achiever, you’ll learn how to quiet your inner critic, commit with care, and finally feel like you're living a life that reflects your real values — not your fears.

Because the highest standard isn’t perfection. It’s treating yourself like someone who matters.

New episodes every week.
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  • 20 episodes
  • Avg 14 min
  • English
  • S3 · E9
    May 18 · 19 min

    Lessons from a week long mastermind

    I just got back from a week-long mastermind on the Camino de Santiago in Spain with a group of remarkable business owners — authors, TED speakers, retreat leaders — all gathered to get clear on the next 90 days of our businesses. In this episode, I'm sharing what I actually walked away with, including why knowing your strategy isn't your real problem, and what I finally gave myself permission to believe. 💬 Ready to start building the strengths you need to make you and your business stronger? Submit a coaching inquiry via this link 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 - Why I joined an in-person business mastermind 00:55 - How the mastermind worked 02:20 - Why I love not being the expert 03:05 - Getting clarity on my next big project 03:25 - Finding a business community 5:30 - What my hotseat revealed about me 08:40 - Questioning my approach to creating content 10:20 - The feedback from the group I finally let myself receive 12:10 - What changes when you build relationships with people who've done the inner work 16:50 - Getting my drive back but from a place of compassion instead of fear 18:05 - Takeaways for you and your business approach More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E8
    May 11 · 11 min

    Removing triggers vs building strength

    Are you removing triggers or actually building strength? In this episode I'm unpacking experiential avoidance: why we avoid uncomfortable emotions and experiences, why it feels so justified in the moment, and why it quietly keeps us stuck in the long run. Key takeaway: Avoidance offers short-term relief but long-term stagnation. Every time you approach something you've been avoiding, you prove to yourself that you have the capacity to handle it and that is how self-assurance is actually built. 💬 Ready to start building the strengths you need to approach what you've been avoiding? Submit a coaching inquiry via this link 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 - What is experiential avoidance? 00:55 - Why removing a trigger isn't the same as building a strength 02:30 - When removing triggers is actually okay, and the compassionate motive that makes the difference 03:45 - Why losing weight to build confidence is fragile 04:15 - The benefits we unknowingly give up when we avoid certain triggers 06:50 - How experiential avoidance showed up in my own life 07:55 - The risk log: a weekly practice from functional analytic psychotherapy that changed things for me 09:00 - Why things might get harder before they get easier when you start being more assertive 09:40 - How approaching what you've been avoiding actually builds self-assurance over time 10:00 - A question to sit with this week --- Enjoying Beneath the Surface? Leave a review and share it with someone who needs to hear this. More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E7
    May 4 · 12 min

    Intellectualising instead of feeling

    If you're someone who loves to understand the why behind everything — the science, the patterns, the theory — this episode is for you. Intellectualizing can be a genuine strength, but it can also become the very thing that keeps you stuck. I'm unpacking how to spot when you're explaining instead of feeling, and what to do about it. Key takeaway: Understanding is the beginning of the process, not the destination. At some point, the work stops being about learning more and starts being about being willing to feel more. If you've learned a lot and still feel stuck, you're not doing it wrong, you're simply ready for the next level. 💬 If you're ready to start integrating what you know and building up those lagging emotional muscle groups, I'd love to support you. Submit a coaching inquiry via this link 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 - What is intellectualisation? 02:20 - Why intellectualising develops in the first place 03:15 - The crucial difference between understanding something and actually doing something 04:00 - Where in your life are you explaining instead of feeling? 05:00 - The social dimension: why our culture prizes intellect over emotion 05:50 - What it actually looks like to interrupt the pattern 06:30 - Three questions to catch intellectualizing in the moment 07:30 - A practical body-based practice: describing sensations instead of explaining feelings 08:30 - Compassionate colour and other tools for sitting with discomfort rather than thinking your way out of it 10:40 - Putting these techniques into practice 11:15 - The shift from knowing more to being willing to feel more --- Enjoying Beneath the Surface? Leave a review and share it with someone who needs to hear this. More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E6
    April 27 · 10 min

    Emotional reasoning in business

    When your coaching business isn't where you want it to be, it's tempting to overhaul your website, revisit your ideal client, or build out new resources. But what if those urges are being driven by emotion rather than evidence? In this episode, I'm breaking down emotional reasoning in business — what it is, how to spot it, and how to make clearer, steadier decisions that actually move things forward. Key takeaway: When business feels stuck, the instinct is to fix something visible. But often what needs addressing first is what's happening underneath. Data gives you an objective reference point; emotional awareness stops you wasting time solving the wrong problem. 💬 Want support working through the emotions that are getting in the way of running your business with clarity? Submit a coaching inquiry via this link 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 – Why emotional reasoning is one of the biggest things holding coaches back 01:10 – What emotional reasoning is, and how it shows up in business 02:50 – The confidence myth in coaching — why doubt is normal, and what to address instead 03:00 – Helpful vs. fear-driven motives 04:00 – Trigger #1: Comparison 05:10 – Trigger #2: Making decisions from a place of uncertainty 07:20 – Trigger #3: Endlessly refining 08:15 – How to use data as an objective anchor when emotions are driving your decisions 09:20 – The one question to ask first when your coaching isn't selling 10:00 – Separating the emotional work from the practical next steps --- Enjoying Beneath the Surface? Leave a review and share the episode with a fellow coach who needs to hear this. More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E5
    April 20 · 14 min

    Emotional regulation vs integration

    If you've tried breathing techniques, journaling, or urge surfing and the emotions just keep coming back — this episode is for you. I'm breaking down the difference between managing emotions in the moment and actually changing how you feel long-term, and why that distinction could be the missing piece in your progress. Key takeaway: Emotion regulation helps you cope in the moment. Emotion integration is what actually changes your emotional landscape over time, and it works by finding and building tolerance for the emotion you've been avoiding, not the one that's loudest. 💬 Ready to go beyond the in-the-moment tools and work on the deeper patterns? Submit a coaching inquiry through the link below, I'd love to support you through this process. 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 – Why your go-to coping tools might only be scratching the surface 00:55 – How I define emotion regulation 02:00 – When emotion regulation *is* useful 02:50 – What emotion integration actually means 03:45 – A deep dive example: social anxiety, and the hidden emotion that's actually driving it 05:20 – Why blocked anger can show up as anxiety — and what healthy anger is really there to do 06:30 – What this looks like in practice 07:45 – My personal experience getting in touch with my own anger, and why it changed everything 08:40 – The Steady Mind: why we build this first before turning towards difficult emotions 09:20 – Two questions to get you started on your own emotion integration journey --- Found this helpful? Share it with someone who might need to hear it, and leave a review to help more people find the show. More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E4
    April 13 · 11 min

    Why do I always blame myself? Unpacking self blame

    Have you ever caught yourself thinking "I should be able to do this, why can't I just get it together?" In this episode, I'm unpacking self-blame: where it comes from, why we developed it, and how to take responsibility for our lives without turning on ourselves. 💬 If you'd like deeper, more long-term support working through these patterns I'd love to hear from you. Submit a coaching inquiry via the link below. 🔗 Coaching --- Timestamps: 00:00 – The inner critic's greatest hits — and why they're keeping you stuck 01:15 – What self-blame actually is, and when it can be constructive vs. destructive 02:30 – Why self-blame developed as a learned safety strategy 04:20 – How blaming yourself protects you from anger, sadness, and feelings of helplessness 06:00 – My real-life illustration of self-blame vs. responsibility in action 08:45 – The crucial difference between fault and responsibility — and why it changes everything 09:50 – Practical steps to begin noticing your self-blame patterns 10:40 – The fear beneath the pattern and why that's where your compassion needs to go --- Enjoyed this episode? Leave a review and share it with someone who needs to hear it. More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E3
    April 6 · 9 min

    It's not resistance, it's fear

    In this episode of Beneath the Surface I challenge the common coaching assumption that struggling to follow through automatically means “resistance” and I introduce a clearer framework of blocks, resistance, and fears. With rest (or lack of it) as an example, I unpack how understanding the root cause of our limitations can help us to shift our mentality and be more compassionate towards ourselves. Timestamps: 00:25 – Why “resistance” is oversimplified 01:30 – Blocks: external limits on rest 03:20 - Resistance: not seeing the benefit of rest 04:55 - Fears: knowing it helps but still can’t rest 07:55 - Compassion, courage, and origins of overworking/rest guilt More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E2
    March 30 · 13 min

    Working through performance anxiety

    I’m kicking off the self-sabotage series of Beneath the Surface with a real-time example of how I worked through performance anxiety before running my first ever half marathon. In this episode, I walk through the exact tools I used, including an approach from Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy (REBT), reframing perfectionist thinking, and the self-talk that helped me stay focused during the race. If you’ve ever felt pressure around a goal you really care about, this episode will help you hold high standards without letting anxiety sabotage you. Timestamps: 00:00 – Performance anxiety before my first half marathon 02:30 – The hidden belief driving the pressure 04:15 – Reframing goals: preference vs demand 06:00 – Perfectionism, social pressure, and self-compassion 08:30 – Returning to the why 10:00 – Self-talk and mindset during the race 12:15 – A question to reflect on for your own goals More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S3 · E1
    March 23 · 10 min

    Reframing self sabotage

    Welcome to season 3 of my newly renamed podcast Beneath the Surface. In this episode I explore safety strategies — the hidden drivers behind behaviours like emotional eating, procrastination, overworking, doom scrolling, and people-pleasing. I explain the science behind these behaviours, and why, when our threat system is activated it is harder to access logical thinking and choose differently. I also introduce the soothe system and the idea of developing a “steady self” — an observing part of the mind that helps you respond to these patterns with awareness rather than being driven by them. Timestamps: 00:00 – Season 3 introduction 00:38 – What safety strategies are 01:45 – Why all behaviors serve a function 02:35 – The brain’s threat system 03:45 – Amygdala, stress hormones & reactivity 05:20 – Why change feels hard in the moment 06:10 – The soothe system 07:10 – Why soothing can feel difficult 08:00 – Developing the “steady self” 09:00 – Understanding emotional parts 09:40 – Reflecting on your safety patterns 10:27 – Wrap up More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E11
    March 16 · 10 min

    Changes are coming

    More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E10
    March 9 · 21 min

    How coaching works

    In this episode of Stronger Standards, I break down how coaching actually works. I share how my work has evolved from nutrition and body image into Compassion Focused approaches, and why self-compassion alone isn’t enough. I explore why receiving support can feel harder than giving it — and why that flow of compassion is often the missing piece. I explain: Why insight doesn’t automatically create emotional change The difference between rigid, tick-box coaching and skill-based transformation How we build what I call a “steady self” (your inner secure base) Why pacing matters (you don’t have to feel everything all at once) How Compassionate Mind Training strengthens your soothing system How to sign up for coaching with me and my team If you’re smart, self-aware, and know exactly what to do… but still find yourself stuck when it comes to real, lasting change, then coaching could definitely be for you. If you have any questions or thoughts I would love to hear from you. 🔗 Links mentioned: – Coaching waitlist --- Timestamps: 00:00 – Why change feels confusing (even when you “know better”) 02:15 – My evolution into compassion-focused coaching 04:30 – Why self-compassion isn’t the whole picture 06:10 – Insight vs. emotional change: the real block 08:05 – Therapy vs. rigid coaching: what’s missing 09:40 – Building your “steady self” and secure inner base 12:00 – The core psychological skills we train 14:15 – Pacing emotional work (like progressive overload) 16:00 – How Compassionate Mind Training regulates emotion 17:45 – What working together actually looks like 19:00 – What changes when you cultivate strong (not harsh) standards More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E9
    March 2 · 12 min

    Take more risks

    This episode drops on my birthday 🎂 and as I step into a new decade, I’m reflecting on the risks that shaped my life, and why playing it safe might actually be the biggest risk of all. In this episode, I share: How taking risks built my resilience Why your brain defaults to safety How to stop letting fear make your decisions The role of social support in building courage 🔗 Links mentioned: – Coaching waitlist Timestamps: 00:00 – Why risk matters 02:00 – The one-way flight that changed my life 06:00 – Why fear keeps us stuck 08:00 – The “fear tax” & the real cost of comfort 09:30 – The question: *If I wasn’t afraid, what would I do?* 11:00 – Compassion, courage & the science of support 12:30 – Coaching & next steps More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E8
    February 23 · 13 min

    The three Cs of change

    In this episode of Stronger Standards I talk about the simple framework I come back to whenever I feel stuck: The 3 Cs of Change. If you’re feeling stuck in your growth, whether it’s with food, your body, your business, or your confidence, this episode is for you. I cover: What the 3 Cs of change are How missing one or more of the Cs can impact your life How to use this framework to focus your energy where you need it most 🔗 Links mentioned: – Coaching waitlist Timestamps: 00:00 - Why feeling stuck doesn’t mean change isn’t possible 02:10 - Why “clarity” isn’t actually what you need (and how action creates clarity) 04:00 - C #1 - Curiosity 06:30 - How understanding your patterns builds self-compassion 08:00 - C #2 - Courage 09:30 - Building your internal secure base + safe haven 10:45 - C #3 - Commitment 12:00 - The question to ask when you feel stuck 12:30 - Coaching waitlist + how to support yourself if you’re doing this alone More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E7
    February 16 · 13 min

    Rethinking Distress Tolerance

    In this episode of Stronger Standards I unpack what distress tolerance actually means, and why pushing through isn’t always beneficial. I explain: The impact of learned association on emotions Why slowing down can feel threatening for high achievers How to cultivate a compassionate brain state so you can regulate instead of react 🔗 Links mentioned: – Coaching waitlist Timestamps: 00:00 – The myth of pushing through 02:30 – High functioning vs. thriving 05:00 – Emotional differentiation explained 08:00 – Why slowing down feels hard 11:00 – Compassion as real resilience More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E6
    February 9 · 19 min

    Building self trust after setbacks

    You’re intelligent, capable, and deeply self-aware — so why do you keep starting things and not finishing them? In this episode, I’m breaking down self-efficacy, your confidence in your ability to follow through, and why it quietly erodes when you keep letting yourself down. Rather than repeating the same surface-level advice, we look at what actually gets in the way — including self-criticism, unrealistic standards, and emotional barriers that sabotage consistency. In this episode, I cover: What self-efficacy really is — and how low self-efficacy keeps you stuck in stop–start cycles Why setting goals for your “ideal self” backfires (and how to meet yourself where you are) How small, realistic wins build confidence more effectively than big plans The four key facilitators of self-efficacy Why mindset alone isn’t enough — and the emotional skills required to stay consistent How coaching helps you unlearn self-defeating patterns and build real trust in yourself 🔗 Links mentioned: – Motivated Masterclass – Coaching waitlist (NOW OPEN!) I’ll see you in the next episode. Timestamps: 00:00 - Why you start strong but don’t follow through 02:00 - What self-efficacy actually is 04:00 - How low self-efficacy keeps you stuck 06:00 - The mistake of setting goals for your ideal self 08:30 - Building confidence with small, realistic wins 11:00 - What actually facilitates self-efficacy 13:30 - Why reflecting on success matters 15:30 - How self-criticism and comparison undermine progress 17:30 - The emotional skills needed to stay consistent 19:00 - How coaching helps you break self-defeating cycles More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E5
    January 26 · 20 min

    Embodying your steady self

    We all have patterns that once kept us safe but now keep us stuck. In this episode of Stronger Standards, I explore how compassion isn’t about being “soft,” but about building the inner strength and steadiness needed to work with those patterns—without being driven by them. I talk about: Why old safety strategies keep us stuck Compassion as a trainable brain state Reflection vs. rumination (and venting) Why self-compassion creates stronger boundaries Key compassionate qualities: wisdom, strength, commitment The role of play, posture, and embodiment Using the body to support mindset change Choosing small, daily actions that create lasting change This episode is about becoming the version of yourself who can meet challenges with steadiness, intention, and aliveness—one small, embodied choice at a time. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction: Understanding Patterns and Compassion 00:42 - The Role of Compassion in Change 01:30 - Journaling and Self-Reflection 02:30 - Misconceptions About Compassion 03:05 - Qualities of Compassionate Minds 06:00 - Embodying Compassionate Qualities 10:30 - Using Body Posture to Support the Mind 13:51 - Starting the Day with Compassion 15:31 - Practical Actions to Embody Qualities 20:16 - Conclusion: Building Capacity to Show Up Differently More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E4
    January 19 · 12 min

    Question your values

    What if the values you’re most proud of are also the ones keeping you stuck? In this episode of Stronger Standards, I explore how “good” standards like reliability, resilience, discipline, and independence can quietly become fear-based safety strategies. I talk about: When “good” values quietly keep you stuck The 'Cage of Unquestioned Standards' Values shaped by safety, not authenticity Same actions, different motives: toward vs. away What your values are costing you Recalibrating values with compassion, not fear This episode invites you to notice how you relate to your values and whether they’re serving you, or keeping you stuck — and how to recalibrate your values with compassion. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction: The cage of unquestioned standards 01:00 - Safety strategies and identity formation 02:25 - Examples of limiting standards 04:06 - Intellectualization as a safety strategy 04:44 - Resilience and overcoming tolerance 05:57 - The impact of discipline on body image 06:43 - Reevaluating your relationship with values 10:18 - Practical steps to recalibrate your values 12:25 - Conclusion: building a better relationship with values More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E3
    January 12 · 12 min

    Recalibration over reinvention

    In this episode of Stronger Standards, I talk about why the pressure to reinvent yourself at the start of a new year can actually keep you stuck — especially if you struggle with all-or-nothing patterns. Instead, I share why recalibration is a more compassionate, sustainable way to create real change by working with your mind and body, not against them. I cover: Why New Year reinvention often keeps us stuck Recalibration vs. starting over The 'Fresh Start Effect' and self-pressure Where safety behaviors (perfectionism, overworking, people-pleasing) come from Why “just stop” goals don’t work Using awareness instead of force to create change Noticing thoughts, feelings, and body cues in real time Compassion as the foundation for sustainable growth If you’re tired of starting over every January, this episode is your invitation to slow down, get curious, and build change that actually sticks. Timestamps: 00:00 - New year, new you? 01:00 - The fresh start effect 01:47 - The problem with wiping the slate clean 03:47 - Recalibration over reinvention 04:33 - Practical steps for recalibration 06:20 - Understanding safety behaviors 08:15 - Building awareness and compassion 11:48 - Final thoughts and next steps More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E2
    January 5 · 23 min

    Courage to try again

    In this episode of Stronger Standards, I break down why change feels so hard—especially when part of you wants to grow and another part is scared to try again. I explain how our brains and nervous systems are wired for safety, how old coping strategies can keep us stuck, and what actually helps change become sustainable. I also share personal reflections, practical exercises, and an invitation to think differently about the year ahead. I cover: Why change feels scary even when you want it How the brain’s need for safety keeps us stuck The role of people-pleasing, perfectionism, and overthinking Why forcing change doesn’t last How sustainable change comes from safety, not pressure A reflection on how you want to feel in one year Practicing new beliefs with compassion, not force Keep an eye out for more Stronger Standards episodes, focused on small, meaningful changes that support a more fulfilling life. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction: overcoming the fear of change 01:24 - Understanding the brain's role in change 02:49 - Social threats and safety behaviors 03:50 - Implicit learnings and emotional regulation 04:55 - Safety strategies and their impact 07:09 - Challenges in making changes 09:14 - Building capacity for change 12:28 - Reflecting on future goals 15:22 - Practical tips for cultivating change 22:42 - Conclusion: embracing change with compassion More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

  • S2 · E1
    Dec 29, 2025 · 15 min

    End of year reflection

    In this episode of Stronger Standards, I explore how to reflect on the past year in a way that supports growth rather than self-criticism. Looking back can bring pride, pressure, frustration — or all of it at once. This episode offers a more compassionate approach to reflection that helps you learn from the year without getting stuck in shame or defeat. I cover: The difference between healthy self-critique and self-attacking Why reflection needs compassion, and how avoidance or frustration can be useful information Why focusing on experiences (not just achievements) helps us access contentment and fulfilment What experiences stood out for me this year and what I learned from them How to carry those lessons forward into the new year Keep an eye out for more Stronger Standards episodes, focused on small, meaningful changes that support a more fulfilling life. Timestamps 00:00 – Welcome & introduction 00:43 – Why reflection matters 01:26 – The difference between healthy self-critique and self-criticism 03:20 – A new approach: focusing on experiences, not achievements 05:08 – Experience 1: Greece trip and lessons in kindness 08:19 – Experience 2: The power of live music for well-being 11:55 – Experience 3: Recognizing and overcoming self-minimization 14:52 – Encouragement for your own reflection 15:23 – Final thoughts and what’s next More Resources: Grab the free mini-course: Emotion Systems Audit – Download here Connect with Shannon on Instagram: @coachshannonbeer Learn more about compassion coaching: get the details here

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