The Systemic Way

Sezer and Julie

The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities.

Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway

Music by Rena Paid

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106 episodes
Updated July 27

Episodes106

Newest first

Feb 4, 2023 · 1 hr 16 min
History and Development of Family Therapy at the Tavistock Clinic: Working from the Margins with Charlotte Burck
In this episode we talk to systemic psychotherapist, consultant and filmmaker Charlotte Burck about her inspiration and process of making this personal film about the development of systemic family psychotherapy at the Tavistock Clinic, UK. Charlotte shares professional and personal stories about this unique time and the joys and challenges of bringing this story to film. The film Working from the Margins. The development of systemic psychotherapy at the Tavistock Clinic can be viewed for free here: https://youtu.be/wMSX_PJSgb0 Charlotte Burck's Bio (taken from The Taos Institute): Charlotte is an honorary consultant systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, and is director of the Family Therapy and Systemic Research Centre, a resource for systemic, social constructionist, narrative, dialogical therapists and researchers and the public. The FTSRC website, which is hosted on the Tavistock & Portman website, holds a database of research references pertinent to the field, of qualitative and process research, of effectiveness and outcome research, and of links to researchers and their websites. Charlotte worked for 25 years as a consultant systemic psychotherapist, trainer, supervisor and researcher in the child and adolescent mental health department of the Tavistock Clinic, where she did clinical work, carried out research and trained systemic clinicians at all levels. With David Campbell, she designed and then ran the Professional Doctorate in Systemic Psychotherapy, a research programme for systemic psychotherapists to explore clinical and organisational questions close to their heart. She had a special clinical interest in working with families who have experienced violence or high parental conflict. With her colleague Gillian Hughes, Charlotte set up a small team, Refugee Resilience Collective in March 2016, offering weekly narrative-systemic psychosocial and political resilience-based support to refugees and volunteers, in the Calais area, which continues offering weekly support to volunteers in Calais and to voluntary organisations working with refugees in Greece. Charlotte is the author of Multilingual Living. Explorations of Language and Subjectivity, based on her Phd research, and is co-author (with Gwyn Daniel) of Gender and Family Therapy, co-editor (with Gwyn Daniel) of Mirrors and Reflections: Processes in Systemic Supervision, co-editor (with Ellie Kavner & Sara Barratt) of Positions and Polarities in Contemporary Systemic Practice. The legacy of David Campbell, co-editor (with Bebe Speed) of Gender, Power and Relationships, She is the series editor (with Gwyn Daniel) of the Routledge Systemic Thinking and Practice Series, which commissions books from systemic and narrative psychotherapists, organisational consultants and others, relevant to the systemic, narrative and dialogical fields. Other publications can be located at: repository.tavistockandportman.ac.uk/view/creators/Burck Charlotte recently trained as a documentary film-maker, and to date has made two films featuring refugees. It remains crucial to her to develop and sustain connections with other systemic, social constructionist, narrative, and dialogical professionals, as well as to critical theorists and psychosocial colleagues, in order to sustain solidarity and creativit
Jan 21, 2023 · 1 hr 19 min
CMM with Vernon Cronen: A life in communications and meaning making.
In this episode Professor Vernon Cronen shares his journey in developing CMM. Professor Cronen talks about his relationship with Barnet Pearce, introducing the ideas in the UK and the current developments of CMM theory and practice. Vernon weaves his experiences with stories from his life giving us a colourful and intricate walk through his relationship with CMM. Prof. Vernon Cronen has been a member of the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Department of Communication since 1970. He was for many years Senior Consultant at the KCC Foundation (Kensington Consultation Centre, London). He is also an Associate of CMM Institute for Personal and Social Evolution. Professor Cronen is best known for his work on the communication theory Coordinated Management of Meaning which he co-authored with Barnett Pearce. He has lectured and presented workshop in many places in the US and through Europe. Vernon Cronen is Co-author with Barnett Pearce of the book Communication, Action and Meaning: The Creation of Social realities . Cronen describes CMM as a “practical theory” that can also be put to critical purposes. As a practical theory it provides a grammar of action for joining with others to create new possibilities for joint action. He is author or co-author of numerous articles and book chapters in communication, psychology, and consultation.
Dec 18, 2022 · 1 hr 4 min
Just Therapy - sacred stories, belonging and social justice as guides for liberating practice: In conversation with Carol Halliwell
In this episode we meet with Consultant systemic psychotherapist Carol Halliwell as she shares her personal and professional connections with the Just Therapy team at the Family Centre in New Zealand. We explore the Just Therapy approach and hear how the guiding principles that underpin their work has influenced and guided Carol's practice for over 20 years.
Dec 10, 2022 · 1 hr 28 min
Using Genograms: A Systemic Therapeutic Tool. In conversation with Monica McGoldrick
In this episode we meet with the one and only Monica McGoldrick as she takes us through her career and journey in using family genograms in her clinical work. We hear how Monica has developed her ideas throughout the years and the use of symbols, patterns and the importance of exploring life cycles. This is a unique opportunity of hearing a master therapist share her insights into the application of this integral tool in systemic family therapy. Monica McGoldrick, MSW, PhD (h.c.), Director of the Multicultural Family Institute Teacher, author and family therapist. She has an international reputation as a trainer and author. She is on the Clinical Faculty of the Psychiatry Department of the Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. Her books include Ethnicity and Family Therapy (3rd ed), The Expanded Family Life Cycle (5th ed. 2017), Genograms (3rd ed), Living Beyond Loss (2nd ed), Re-Visioning Family Therapy: Race, Culture and Gender in Clinical Practice (2nd ed), Women in Families, and The Genogram Journey: Reconnecting with Your Family (2nd ed of You Can Go Home Again, 2011). Her newest book the Genogram Casebook was published by W.W. Norton in 2016. She is also the author of a number of clinical videos available through www.psychotherapy.net. See more of Monica's work at: https://multiculturalfamily.org
Nov 20, 2022 · 1 hr 4 min
The Mother & Daughter Puzzle - Attachment, history mapping and the impact of societal and generational stories: In conversation with Rosjke Hasseldine
In this episode we discuss the mother and daughter relationship with Rosjke Hasseldine. Rosjke has spent almost 30 years working therapeutically with mothers and daughters and researching the factors that contribute to the complexity of this relationship. Rosjke has trained over1000 therapists and coaches from 20 different countries in her Mother-Daughter Attachment training. In this conversation, Rosjke some of her experiences, therapeutic interventions and the model she has developed (the mother and daughter attachment model) which is a very important contribution to this often ignored area of clinical research. Find out more about Rosjke;'s work at https://www.rosjke.com
Nov 6, 2022 · 1 hr 7 min
Systemic Supervision: Improvisation, Creativity and the use of Metaphors with Karen Partridge
In this episode we talk with systemic psychotherapist, supervisor and trainer Karen Partridge about the role of creativity and improvisation in systemic supervision. Karen takes us on a journey of metaphors through "swampy lowlands", "constructive awkwardness", "positioning compass" and her "rememberall". Karen shares her ideas of connecting to our creative selves and how to embrace it within the supervision process.
Oct 29, 2022 · 1 hr 31 min
AFT conference 2022 - Reflections, appreciations and resonances - Old Wisdoms and New Truths.
Welcome back after a short summer break. In this episode we reflect on the wonderful AFT 2022 Conference entitled: Transgenerational stories of hope across cultures; old wisdoms and new truths which was host by the West Yorkshire AFT at the Queens Hotel in Leeds. We share our reflections, highlights and the experience of the conference and also speak to attendees, presenters and organisers about their favourite moments and what the conference meant to them. Massive thank you for everyone who took their time to speak with us and in this episode we feature: Carole Hunt Hugh Palmer Paul Walton Diane Holdsworth Kevin Simmons Diane Morrison Michaela Wickham-Hills Marian Dixon Hannah Sherbersky Apologies for those we spoke with at the conference but could not include due to some audio issues.
Sep 10, 2022 · 1 hr 17 min
Stories Lived and Stories Told: Discussing the legacy and documentary film of the KCC
In this episode we meet with the filmmakers of the documentary film "KCC Stories Lived and Stories Told" which was premiered at the AFT conference 2021. We meet with the creators, Rick Murphy, Helen Mahaffey, Ayesha Aslam, Mark Chidgey and Karen Partridge as they share their reflections on key moments from the film, their thoughts on making the film and their memories of the KCC and what it means to them. We invite you to all watch the film (if you haven't already) and share in reflecting about the memory and legacy of the KCC. You can watch the full film here: https://youtu.be/j48EfTVsJoo Please do share with us your reflections, memories and thoughts about the KCC, the documentary and this episode at https://www.instagram.com/thesystemicway/
Aug 20, 2022 · 1 hr 15 min
Discovering The Mythical Land of Ireland's Fifth Province - With Dr Imelda McCarthy
Dr Imelda McCarthy PhD. joins us to share the story, development and practice of the Fifth Province. Imelda talk with us about how the Fifth Province evolved within the context of Ireland, the wider systemic community and the connections it has with spirituality. She gives us examples of using the myth in practice and how the model invites space into the therapy room. We also hear about thematic diamonds and to work with oppositional positions. Dr Imelda McCarthy, PhD. is a systemic/social constructionist therapist, supervisor and consultant. She has affiliations with School of Applied Social Science at University College Dublin where she was a director of the PhD program in families and systemic therapies and a senior university lecturer. She currently works in private practice while she teaches and consults nationally and internationally. Imelda is also affiliated with Kensington Consultation Centre (London, UK), is on the faculty of the TAOS institute PhD programme. She has written and presented both nationally and internationally in over 20 countries on the topics of Women, Child Sexualised Abuse, Poverty and Spirituality and Therapy. From 1981 – 1995 Imelda was a member of a clinical team, the Fifth Province Associates whose work along with her own has been translated into eight languages. She is also a co-founder of the Irish Family Therapy Association and Ireland’s first professional training programme in family therapy at the Mater Misericordiae Hospital in Dublin. Check out Imelda's website: www.imeldamccarthy.com
Aug 17, 2022 · 1 hr 47 min
The Systemic Lens Episode 1: The Wizard of Oz and Systemic Stories of Gender, Power and the Discovery of Self Through Relational Means
Introducing our new podcast adventure - The Systemic Lens. We are a group of systemic therapist with a love for film, TV, music, literature and theatre and will be using systemic theory to share our reflections, thoughts and resonances on some our our favourites. Through these podcast we hope to expand the bounds of systemic application and offer alternative forms of analysis to film, TV, Music, literature etc. We also hope to provide new ways for people to connect with systemic ideas. We begin with an a systemic exploration of the classic Wizard of Oz and discuss issues of gender, power and the discovery of self through relationships. Enjoy.
Jul 30, 2022 · 58 min
The 1.5 Order Position: An exploration of "knowing" and "not-knowing" in therapy with Ged Smith.
In this episode we talk with Dr Ged Smith about his ideas on taking a 1.5 order position in therapy. Ged introduces us to the meaning of the 1.5 order position and shows us ways to operate within and between first and second order positions from his own experience. In this podcast we discuss the therapeutic conundrums and tensions between the therapists position as expert and collaborator; having certainty and exploring and knowing and not-knowing.
Jul 11, 2022 · 1 hr 9 min
Nick Pendry on Embedding Conversations about Race and Racism into our Everyday Practice.
Nick Pendry is a social worker and family therapist. He is currently employed as the deputy director of children's services at the London Borough of Wandsworth. He identifies as a Brown-Indian man. Nick has worked in various roles in the NHS and local authority children’s services. He is particularly interested in embedding systemic ideas and practices into children’s social care and in the construction of race and racism. In this conversation Nick Pendry shares his thoughts and reflections on race and racism and how they inform and shape his practice. Nick invites us to consider our own positions and how together we can open the door to more authentic, meaningful and transformative conversations about race and racism.
Jun 25, 2022 · 1 hr 12 min
Inga-Britt Krause on the Complexity of Teaching Race and Equity
In this episode we hear about Inga-Britt Krause's professional life with a focus on race and equity - the importance of teaching it and the nuances that need to be held in mind. The conversation is framed around her paper "Can we teach race and equity? (2022)" and we hope it invites a lens of curiosity and reflection on where we are at with race and equity as a systemic community. Inga-Britt Krause is Training and Development Consultant with special reference to race and equity at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust where she also worked as a Consultant Systemic Psychotherapist in a Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service. She first trained as a Social Anthropologist at the London School of Economics and Political Science and teaches widely, nationally and internationally, on the subject of social science and psychotherapy and about the place of culture and race in clinical practice and theory. Paper discussed in this episode: Krause, I. B. (2022). Can we teach race and equity?. Journal of Family Therapy, 44(1), 157-170. New publication: Barbetta, P., Cavagnis, M. E., Krause, I. B., & Telfener, U. (2022). Ethical and aesthetic explorations of systemic practice: New critical reflections. Taylor & Francis.
Jun 4, 2022 · 1 hr 21 min
Becoming Your Best Therapeutic Self: In Conversation with Dr Victor Yalom
Dr Victor Yalom, founder of Psychotherapy.net joins the Systemic Way in a conversation about developing your best therapeutic self. We hear about his experiences of becoming a therapist, creating Psychotherapy.net and also tips on developing a more dynamic, authentic self so that you can better connect with and support your clients along their therapeutic journey. Being self-aware, comfortable sitting with difficult emotions, and truly present for our clients are essential skills that cannot be learned from books and classes. Yet these are key to forming strong therapeutic alliances and promoting meaningful growth and change. Dr Victor Yalom shares his ideas on continuing professional development beyond the books whether you’re an established clinician with years of experience or a new practitioner just starting out. www.psychotherapy.net
May 22, 2022 · 1 hr 6 min
Applying Systemic Concepts to Politics: In conversation with Gwyn Daniel
In this episode, Julie and Sezer speak with Gwyn Daniel about her connection to politics and systemic thinking and how she navigates the two in the systemic community. Gwyn talks about gender, power, class and geography in this rich and insightful episode. Gwyn Daniel is a Systemic Family Therapist, Trainer, Clinical Supervisor and co-founder of the Oxford Family Institute. She has authored or co-authored many professional books and articles and we welcome Gwyn back to talk to us about this important topic.
May 1, 2022 · 1 hr 3 min
Contextual Equine Therapy - The Experiential Power of Bringing Together Horses, Families and Therapy: In conversation with Hesther Selbeck
In this episode we explore the personal and professional journey of Hesther Selbeck, a Dutch Systemic Psychotherapist and developer of Contextual Equine Therapy. Hesther takes us on a ride through the development, theory and practice that underpins her model. Contextual Equine Therapy is a form of systemic therapy in which horses are used as co-therapists. The interaction with the horses provides a (deep) experiential form of therapy in which clients come into contact with their emotions and are mirrored in their behavior. During the treatment, two psychotherapeutic methods are united: equine therapy (Eagala Model) and systemic therapy. The Eagala Model sees the horse as a sensitive co-therapist, the team facilitates. Equine therapy focuses on the emotional experience and giving meaning to the behavior of the animals in response to client(s). Hesther Selbeck has developed this treatment based on her background and expertise as a systems therapist in Child and Youth Mental Health Care. There she encountered a challenge in changing patterns between family members and generating hope and perspective. She questioned the context of the clinic on the psychiatric behavior of young people. While traveling on horseback through Mongolia, she discovered a process of interaction between her and the horse. There was an interaction going on. These insights and experiences became the basis for the approach. www.hestherselbeck.nl
Apr 10, 2022 · 1 hr 6 min
COURRAGE - Healing Communities with Narrative Therapy: An interview with Ncazelo Ncube-Mlilo
In this episode we are honoured to speak with Ncazelo Ncube-Mlilo, where we discuss her work with a focus on the COURRAGE approach that she has developed with women who have experienced trauma. COURRAGE is a collective narrative way of working that privileges the alternative stories of women who have faced significant hardships. It honours the strengths, skills and courage women show and use in the face of sorrow and grief. Ncazelo talks us through the different stages of the model and shares stories about how it was co-created and reflections in the women's experiences. This is an inspiring and insightful talk with a practitioner who takes us into the heart of her practice. Ncazelo Ncube-Mlilo, the pioneer of Tree of Life through her organisation PHOLA provides training and supervision in many countries where the methodology is used to support practitioners to remain rooted to the values and principles that inform it. The trainings offered seek to ensure fidelity in the use, application and adaptation of the methodology and contribute towards promoting culturally sensitive therapies. She developed other culturally sensitive counselling tools namely; COURRAGE Methodology and NARRATIVES IN THE SUITCASE Project. Find out more about Ncazelo and PHOLA at: https://phola.org
Mar 26, 2022 · 56 min
Exploring EcoTherapy with Chiara Santin
In this episode, Julie and Sezer speak with Chiara Santin who is a Systemic and Family Psychotherapist, supervisor, trainer and Director of Rainbow Family Therapy Services and Rainbow Community Projects CIC. Chiara has worked with children and families for more than 30 years, in Italy as a community-based youth worker and in UK as a professional. She is passionate about promoting affordable family therapy, activity-based therapy and EcoTherapy. EcoTherapy is a form of therapy which uses nature as the context for change, self-growth and healing. It is the application of Ecopsychology, a well-developed field to claim people’s need to reconnect to nature for their own benefit as well as promoting a renewed awareness and commitment to caring and protecting the environment of which we are part of. Chiara talks to us about her projects in applying EcoTherapy to systemic family therapy. For more information about Chiara's work and EcoTherapy, visit her website on: www.familytherapyservicesrainbow.org
Mar 13, 2022 · 51 min
The Handbook of Systemic Family Therapy - In conversation with editors Reenee Singh, Mudita Rastogi and Adrian Blow
In this episode we hear about the ground-breaking Handbook of Systemic Family Therapy (Wampler, 2020) from three contributing editors. We discuss it's creation, the process of its development and get a deeper dive into some of the chapters. This handbook is a magnificent resource for family therapist as its sets to redefine the profession and practice of systemic therapy and it was a real pleasure and privilege to speak with Reenee, Mudita and Adrian about their role in creating this international handbook The Handbook integrates the scholarly literature on systemic interventions focused on children, couples, and families into a single resource. Volume 1 includes critical information on the theoretical, practice, research, and policy foundations of the profession of systemic family therapy and its roles in an integrated health care system. Topics in Volume 2 (children and adolescents), Volume 3 (couples), and Volume 4 (family over the lifespan) reflect established and emerging interventions for the core difficulties in relationships that impact the mental and physical health of individuals, couples, and families. Adrian J. Blow, PhD, works as a couple and family therapy intervention researcher and educator at Michigan State University. Adrian is a Professor and Chair in the Human Development and Family Studies department and a core faculty member of the Couple and Family Therapy program. He studies families and trauma, military families, resilience processes in couples, and change processes (common factors) in interventions pertaining to Systemic Family Therapy. . He has mentored many students and in 2017 was awarded the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy Training Award, which recognizes excellence in family therapy education. Mudita Rastogi, PhD, practices at Aspire Consulting and Therapy as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, grant consultant, coach, and educator. She is an AAMFT Approved Supervisor and Clinical Fellow, having practiced in both India and the US. She is a former Professor at the Illinois School of Professional Psychology, Program Director for the SAMHSA-funded Minority Fellowship Program at AAMFT, Associate Editor for the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, Editor of Multicultural Couple Therapy and Voices of Color, and Associate Editor for the Encyclopedia of Couple and Family Therapy. She is a founding member of the Indian Association for Family Therapy, with interest in diversity, inclusion, global mental health, parenting, and child-free couples. Reenee Singh, DSysPsych, is the former Chief Executive of the Association of Family Therapy and Systemic Practice in the UK. She is a Consultant Family and Systemic Psychotherapist, currently working at the Child and Family Practice, where she founded the London Intercultural Couples Centre and serves as a Director. Reenee is a Visiting Professor in the School of Psychology, University of Bergamo, Italy, and is the past editor of the Journal of Family Therapy. She is the author of three books and numerous academic publications in the areas of "race," culture, and qualitative research. Reenee has taught worldwide and presents her research at national and international conferences. Special Mention: Karen S. Wampler, PhD, retired as Professor and Chair of the Human Development and Family Studies department at Michigan State University. She previously served as Department Chair, Marriage and Family Therapy (MFT) Program Director, and the C. R. and Virginia Hutcheson Professor at Texas Tech University. Prior to that, she developed and directed the MFT Program at the University of Georgia. Her research focused on applying attachment theory to couple interaction, family therapy process research, and observational measures of relationships. A past editor of the Journal of M
Feb 26, 2022 · 39 min
Superhero Therapy Unleashed and Explained: In Conversation with Dr Janina Scarlet
In this episode we meet with the founder of Superhero Therapy, the amazing Dr Janina Scarlet! We talk about her work, career and the development of Superhero Therapy. As ever, we explore how this approach can be used within systemic therapy and think about ways in which we can incorporate the use of Superheroes in our work with families. Dr. Janina Scarlet, based in San Diego, CA, is a Clinical Psychologist, award-winning author, podcaster and a full-time geek! Dr Scarlet is a Ukrainian-born refugee who survived Chernobyl radiation and persecution. She immigrated to the United States at the age of 12 with her family and later, inspired by the X-Men, developed Superhero Therapy. We hear her story of how she developed the approach. Superhero Therapy is a clinical method of incorporating characters from popular culture, including Superheroes and other characters from books, movies, TV shows and video games into evidence-based therapy (such as cognitive-behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy) to help us to learn to become our own version of a superhero in real life. It is intended for all ages and has been utilised to reshape narratives, build rapport, and manage an array of psychological issues such as anxiety, depression, PTSD, chronic pain and chronic illness, substance abuse disorders, eating disorders, and other difficulties. Please do share your thoughts with us at: https://www.instagram.com/thesystemicway/