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The Doctor's Art

Henry Bair and Tyler Johnson

The practice of medicine–filled with moments of joy, suffering, grace, sorrow, and hope–offers a window into the human condition. Though serving as guides and companions to patients’ illness experiences is profoundly meaningful work, the busy nature of modern medicine can blind its own practitioners to the reasons they entered it in the first place. Join resident physician Henry Bair and oncologist Tyler Johnson as they meet with doctors, patients, leaders, educators, and others in healthcare, to explore stories on finding and nourishing meaning in medicine. This podcast is for anyone striving for a deeper connection with their medical journey. Visit TheDoctorsArt.com for more information.

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#173
Tuesday · 1 hr 9 min
Where Is God in This?: Grappling with a Child’s Cancer | Grant Romoser-Claunch
When a child tragically gets cancer, parents and families often find themselves grasping for ways to make sense of their new reality. It is one thing to know abstractly that we live in a world where the innocent suffer, but it is another thing entirely to suffer alongside your own child. Such a life-altering experience can raise heavy questions for parents, at times forcing them to reassess their most closely held narratives and cherished beliefs. Our guest on this episode is Grant Romoser-Claunch. Grant is a Christian pastor at Newsong Fellowship in Illinois and a husband and a father. When his four-and-half month old son Simon was diagnosed with leukemia, Grant was confronted with the daunting question: Where is God in this? His 2025 book Bone of my Bone chronicles his journey with Simon and captures the spiritual challenges and growth he experienced along the way. Over the course of our conversation, Grant shares Simon’s cancer story from diagnosis all the way to remission. We explore how Grant’s faith was challenged and re-formed while caring for Simon and reflect on how deeper learning often requires a preceding process of unlearning. Finally, Grant reminds medical professionals of their moral duty to wield the power of their position with love. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:30 - Grant’s work as a pastor and the path that led him to his work 9:30 - The heart wrenching story of Grant’s son’s journey with leukemia 33:50 - How Grant’s experience with his son’s cancer challenged his faith and motivated him to write 41:50 - The ways in which Grant’s understanding of God transformed throughout his son’s journey 48:20 - How the concrete details of life can lead us to profound insights 1:00:30 - The impact of doctors who wield their power for their parents instead of over their patients If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#172
July 7 · 58 min
Weight and See: The Ongoing GLP-1 Revolution | Marilyn Tan MD, FACE, FACP
GLP-1s have taken the country by storm. Patients are losing and keeping off weight at levels previously only seen through bariatric surgery. Research trials have shown the drugs to be effective at reducing the risk of heart attack, stroke, and cardiovascular death. They protect the kidneys, reduce sleep apnea, and treat fatty liver and peripheral artery disease – all while being studied for a laundry-list of additional indications. The drugs originally designed for glucose control in diabetes are transforming lives — and raising big social questions. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Marilyn Tan, clinical professor of medicine at Stanford University and chief of the Endocrine Clinic at Stanford Health Care. Dr. Tan focuses on diabetes management in both her clinical practice and research, and she is on the front lines of using GLP1-1s in patient care. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Tan provides a brief history of the development of GLP-1s and describes just how large a leap forward these medications are in weight management. We discuss the patient experience of being on GLP-1s for weight loss – and the stunningly wide array of other uses for the drug beyond weight loss and diabetes. Finally, we discuss the curious effect these medications seem to have on cravings beyond food, and reflect on the use of GLP-1s in the context of an addiction-saturated society. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:37 - Dr. Tan’s path to endocrinology and her work in the field 7:45 - The challenges and rewards inherent in treating a disease like obesity or diabetes that is strongly affected by factors beyond the control of the patient but still requires behavioral interventions 15:45 - The landscape of obesity treatment prior to GLP-1s 22:45 - How GLP-1s function and how they differ from the drugs that came before them 28:10 - Common patient experiences and treatment courses with GLP-1s 35:30 - The growing evidence that GLP-1s can be effective in treating addiction, and the complexity of medicating individuals to address issues with systemic roots 49:00 - Improving your overall health while living a busy life If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#171
June 2 · 1 hr 5 min
Musical Rounds | Melanie Ambler
The hospital can be a harsh backdrop to many of life’s most pivotal events. Alarms blare at inopportune times, rounding doctors intrude on delicate conversations, and vigilant nurses disrupt rare periods of rest. All the chaos can add to the stress of a patient’s hospital stay and create an emotionally discordant experience — seemingly out of step with the profound grief, joy, or intimacy one might expect to accompany the weighty moments that happen in the hospital. In the face of this challenging environment, what can be done to connect patients to the emotional threads of their lives — to invite meaning during these critical times? The answer, at least in part, may lie in music. Our guest on this episode is Melanie Ambler, fourth-year medical student at Stanford and professional cellist. As an undergraduate at Brown, Melanie began researching the intersection of music and medicine. She then completed a Fulbright fellowship in France where her master’s work centered on the effect of music on patients with dementia. Once she got to Stanford, Melanie and her cello Shelby got to work bringing music to hospitalized patients. In 2024, she founded Musical Rounds – a music and storytelling project for patients in palliative care. Over the course of our conversation, Melanie shares how her musical and medical journeys melded into one. We discuss the power of music to prompt reflection, draw out stories, and even transform the ugliness of the hospital into beauty. Best of all, Melanie plays for us live while sharing her early patient experiences that motivate her work at Musical Rounds — including the launch of her new Musical Rounds podcast. In this episode, you’ll hear: 3:00 - How playing the cello became a central part of Melanie’s life 13:45 - Melanie play a piece that showcases the beauty of the cello 18:10 - How Melanie became interested in medicine 27:10 - How Melanie merged music and medicine in her research and in the hospital 46:00 - Reflections on the power of music in the lives of physicians 52:00 - How Melanie’s non-profit organization Musical Rounds is working to provide patients moments of reflection through music and storytelling 55:22 - A patient story that exemplifies the power of music at a patient’s bedside If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#170
May 19 · 56 min
Medicine in the Narrow Place | Jonathan Weinkle MD, FAAP, FACP
Many patients interpret their illness through the lens of their religious tradition. Sometimes this process brings hope, comfort, or growth – but other times it compounds their suffering. What are patients supposed to do when they don’t see their lives reflected in the religious stories they cherish? And how can physicians recognize and respond to spiritual suffering that is layered on top of the physical? Our guest on this episode is Dr. Jonathan Weinkle, clinical assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. Dr. Weinkle practices Internal and Pediatric medicine at Squirrel Hill Health Center – a health center focused on overcoming economic, cultural, and logistical barriers to health care. He serves as a consultant to the Jewish Healthcare Foundation and as the medical director of the Physician Assistant Program at Chatham University. In 2025, he published his book From Illness to Exodus with the goal of helping patients and healers navigate illness – using one of the world’s oldest stories. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Weinkle shares insights from the story of the Jewish Exodus that may help patients feeling trapped in the “narrow place” of illness. We discuss the spiritual and emotional complexity faced by patients whose own illness stories don’t end with a miraculous escape. Finally, we reflect on the importance of healers who understand their patients’ “idioms of distress” and who can attune to their suffering. On this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:45 - How Dr. Weinkle found his way to a career in Med-Peds, and the many hats he wears in his current work 9:00 - Dr. Weinkle’s views on balancing faith and science in medicine 16:00 - The cultural importance and traditions of Passover in the Jewish faith 21:30 - How the lessons of the Passover can be connected to medicine and healing 28:45 - Why Dr. Weinkle chose to write a book for healers 40:00 - Dr. Weinkle’s advice for identifying and responding to a patient’s taxonomy of distress 47:30 - Attending to suffering when it cannot be ‘fixed’ 52:25 - How healers can use ritual to center themselves in their work If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#169
May 5 · 1 hr
Immigrant Physicians and American Healthcare | Eram Alam, PhD
The creation of Medicare and Medicaid in 1965 enabled millions of Americans to meaningfully access healthcare for the first time — and dramatically increased demand for doctors. The passage of the Hart-Celler Immigration and Nationality Act a few months later enabled tens of thousands of immigrant physicians to migrate to the US. Since then, immigrant physicians have comprised between 25 — 40% of the physician workforce. Our guest on this episode is Professor Eram Alam, associate professor of history at Harvard. Alam specializes in the history of medicine, race, migration, and health during the twentieth century. In 2025, she published The Care of Foreigners: How Immigrant Physicians Changed US Healthcare. Over the course of our conversation, Professor Alam traces the legal, economic, and geopolitical factors that led to the US depending on immigrant physicians to care for many of the country’s most vulnerable populations. We explore how American attitudes toward immigration have shifted over time and how the current state of politics has created a jarring disconnect: many patients depend on care from immigrant physicians and yet continue to view immigrants as un-American. Finally, Professor Alam reminds us how remembering everyone feels a little out of place, can help us see the person in front of us more fully. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:00 - Dr. Alam’s work as a professor and historian of healthcare and medicine 7:30 - The background for Dr. Alam’s book The Care of Foreigners. 13:00 - The story behind the 1965 legislation that led to the mass employment of physician immigrants in the US 22:10 - How the role of immigrant physicians in the US healthcare system complicates the idea of meritocracy in medicine 29:00 - The ways in which US immigration policy has changed the experience for foreign-born doctors over time 33:45 - Dr. Alam’s view of how current immigration crackdowns fit into the larger historical narrative of US immigration 45:36 - How dehumanizing political rhetoric surrounding immigrants can blind us to the humanity of those who care for us 53:26 - The unifying power in acknowledging discomfort in ourselves and others If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#168
April 14 · 57 min
Healing the Healers | Mary Brandt, MD
The epidemic of physician burnout isn’t just a personal problem. Burned out doctors are more likely to make mistakes, less likely to follow preventative care guidelines, and more likely to have dissatisfied patients. When a burned out physician leaves an institution or quits all together, it can cost north of a million dollars to replace them. Unwell doctors lead to unwell patients — and an unwell health care system. The toll that the burnout epidemic has taken on physicians, patients, and even the bottom-line requires more than individual adaptation on the part of physicians. It requires a grass-roots movement to heal the healers. Our guest on this episode is Mary Brandt, MD — pediatric surgeon and Distinguished Emeritus Professor of Surgery, Pediatrics, and Medical Ethics at Baylor College of Medicine. Over the course of her clinical career, Dr. Brandt published over 245 peer reviewed publications, 26 chapters, and 2 books. She became particularly attuned to the suffering of trainees and physicians while serving as General Surgery Program Director and Dean of Student Affairs at Baylor, and she subsequently obtained a Master of Divinity Degree to better understand and articulate what she was observing. Dr. Brandt is a persistent advocate for physician wellness and correcting systemic issues in medicine. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Brandt describes the moment she felt called to surgery, her fruitless efforts to resist this calling, and how the combination of competence and humility allowed her to manage the pressure of operating on children. We explore the evolution of the physician-wellness movement and why the health care system cannot afford to ignore the wellness of its physicians. Finally, Dr. Brandt posits that the hard work of compassion is what can sustain physicians long term. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:00 - Dr. Brandt’s unexpected path to becoming a pediatric surgeon 11:00 - Dr. Brandt’s mental approach to the high stakes work of pediatric surgery 27:49 - The disconnect between the work of healing and the business side of medicine 38:15 - How Dr. Brandt’s studies in liberation theology have influenced her vision for the healthcare system and medical practice 42:00 - The three shifts healers can make to collectively change medicine 48:20 - The ‘practice’ of compassion and how it can protect physicians from burnout If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#167
April 7 · 59 min
AI and the Biggest Experiment in Medicine | Robert Wachter, MD
The electronic medical record (EMR) has become an unwelcome interloper in the exam room. Too often, patients find themselves answering questions delivered from behind a monitor by physicians hurriedly typing away. This isn’t the kind of care anyone wants — but it’s what the system demands. Thankfully, change may be on the horizon. AI scribes are now being rolled out in EMRs across the country, capable of listening to a visit, generating a clinic note, and freeing the physician to be present with their patient. But these scribes are only an opening act of a much larger experiment — one that asks not merely whether AI can redeem the medical record, but whether it can usher in something closer to a Golden Age of medicine. Our guest on this episode is Bob Wachter, MD, professor and chair of medicine at UCSF and a leading voice in hospital medicine and administration. In 1996, he and his colleague Lee Goldman coined the term “hospitalist,” giving rise to what has become the fastest growing specialty in the history of modern medicine. He has authored over 300 articles and 6 books, including the New York Times bestseller The Digital Doctor (2015) and A Giant Leap: How AI is Transforming Healthcare and What That Means for Our Future (2026). Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Wachter traces how a long-held fascination with systems drew him into studying medicine's digital transformation over the past 15 years — a period spanning the turbulent rollout of electronic medical records and now the arrival of AI. We explore the bumpy history of adopting powerful but general-purpose technologies, how such technologies force complex industries to reshape themselves, and humanity's humbling track record of predicting what comes next. Dr. Wachter makes the case that AI's integration into medicine constitutes the biggest experiment the field has ever undertaken, and explains why he believes it will ultimately resolve many of the health care system's deepest problems and elevate the practice of medicine itself. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:46 - Dr. Watcher’s path to medicine and to his study of digital transformation 8:06 - The wins and losses of the transition to electronic medical records 26:45 - Why Dr. Watcher is optimistic that AI will deliver a “golden age” for medicine 37:30 - Contending with the potential dangers of AI in the revenue-focused medical industry 50:30 - Dr. Watcher’s view on if there will always be an important place for doctors in the future If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#166
March 17 · 52 min
What is Medicine For? | Devan Stahl, PhD
In recent years, Silicon Valley has imagined for us a new way of life – one where almost anyone can be a twenty or thirty-something-year-old with a supernatural glow, toned physique, understated intelligence, and a superabundance of vitality. This is not reality for most people, even for the twenty or thirty-something-year-olds, but medicine and technology originally intended to help people achieve baseline health are increasingly being leveraged to close the gap. This raises the question: what is medicine for? Is medicine about restoring people to some definition of “normal” health? And if so, what about all the people contentedly living in bodies considered medically abnormal? Our guest is Devan Stahl, author, clinical ethicist, and professor of bioethics and religion at Baylor University. Professor Stahl received her PhD in Health Care Ethics from St. Louis University, before completing her Master of Divinity at Vanderbilt University. Her scholarship focuses on disability theology and bioethics, and her most recent books include Disability's Challenge to Theology (2022) and Bioenhancement Technologies and the Vulnerable Body (2023). In addition to her scholarly work, Stahl volunteers as a clinical ethicist with the Supportive and Palliative Care Team at her local hospital. Over the course of our conversation, we discuss whether it is the role of a clinical ethicist to determine what is “right” in a given situation – and if so, how that is accomplished. We explore how Silicon Valley’s promotion of the “optimized” human raises questions about the purpose of medicine, and the various ways medicine defines the idea of “normal” health. Stahl shares her experience in the healthcare system as someone with multiple sclerosis, cautioning that some providers are more comfortable focusing on the digitized version of someone’s disability than on the person themselves. Together, we imagine a doctor’s role not just in restoring patients to normality, but guiding them to flourish. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:19 - The questions that have driven Stahl’s academic career as a professor of bioethics and religion. 5:00 - The types of requests Stahl receives as a bioethicist at her local hospital. 12:51 - How Silicon Valley is skewing public perception of “health” — and the questions this raises about the purpose of medicine. 20:12 - Stahl’s experience navigating uncomfortable and confusing medical encounters as a person with disability herself. 25:24 - Stahl’s take on the “purpose” of modern medicine. 29:48 - Ways in which our society tends to value certain kinds of bodies over others. 39:36 - Imagining the role of physicians in helping patients flourish. 44:55 - How health care professionals can find deeper meaning in their work and lives. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#165
March 10 · 53 min
The Promise of Value-Based Medicine | Farzad Mostashari, MD
Electronic Medical Records have transformed the way we practice health care, making patient data readily accessible to health care providers, facilitating collaboration within and across large medical teams, increasing transparency, and drastically improving the legibility of patient charts and prescriptions. But despite these benefits, many physicians cite the electronic medical record as a primary driver of burnout, pointing to the overwhelming volume of documentation it requires. In this episode, we explore how the launch of EMRs within the context of America’s predominantly fee-for-service health care system led to the technology falling short of its promise — and how transitioning to value-based care models might redeem the technology, revitalize physicians, and recenter public health. Our guest on this episode is Farzad Mostashari, MD. After completing a degree in public health at Harvard, medical school at Yale, and residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, Dr. Mostashari spent over a decade working in public health: first for the CDC’s Epidemic Intelligence Service and then for the New York City Department of Health. From 2009 to 2011, he served as the National Coordinator for Health IT at the Department of Health and Human Services where he helped oversee the nationwide transition from paper to electronic medical records. In 2014, he founded Aledade, a company that helps primary care physicians form value-based care networks in the US. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Mostashari shares how his childhood in Iran pushed him towards public health, how his experience watching his father being cared for in the hospital drove him towards medicine, and how he has spent his career in the liminal space between public health and medicine. We discuss the rollout of EMRs, and how fee-for-service payment models led to EMRs being optimized for documentation rather than patient care. We explore how value-based care not only solves the problem of over-documentation, but also better aligns the goals of patients, physicians, and even insurance companies. Dr. Mostashari maps out the progress we have made toward this kind of model and the hurdles we have to clear before we have a system that incentivizes preventing stroke as much as treating stroke. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:35 - How Dr. Mostashari became drawn to the intersection between the intimate work of doctoring and the wide lens work of public health. 12:12 - Dr. Mostashari’s experiences modernizing health IT systems and learning to optimize for the number of lives saved rather than the number of technological solutions implemented. 16:05 - Dr. Mostashari’s assessment of the rollout of the electronic medical record in the US. 25:09 - How Aledade frees primary care physicians to prioritize patient outcomes and reduces the burden of EMR documentation. 38:57 - What the US can learn from international health care systems. 41:00 - Challenges in transitioning to outcome-based models of primary care. 50:30 - How Dr. Mostashari’s medical training has shaped his career in public health. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#164
February 3 · 1 hr 7 min
Technology, Medicine, and the Erasure of Suffering | A Doctor’s Art Roundtable
Over the past 160 episodes, two themes that have appeared repeatedly feel as relevant and urgent as ever are 1) the pros and dehumanizing cons of technology and 2) approaching suffering in the human experience. In this episode, we are excited to bring back a panel of notable past guests to discuss the interplay between medicine, suffering, technology, and the human experience. We are joined by historian Christine Rosen, PhD, philosopher Mikolaj Slawkowski-Rode, PhD, and palliative care physician Sunita Puri, MD. Rosen is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute whose work is focused on American history, society and culture, technology and culture, and feminism. Slawkowski-Rode is an assistant professor of philosophy at the University of Warsaw and research fellow at the University of Oxford with a current emphasis on the philosophy of science and religion. Dr. Puri is a palliative care physician, associate professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Medicine, and author of the critically acclaimed book That Good Night (2019). As a panel, we consider a prominent aspect of the unwritten curriculum of medicine: how medicine often considers suffering and sorrow to be fixable and their eradication to be a metric of medical success. We explore ways digital technology can make our lives easier without making them better, and the pressing need to define and defend the (non-digital) human experience. We propose that the goal is not to eradicate all suffering, but to reduce needless suffering without denying the forms that accompany love, growth, and moral responsibility. When suffering is treated as an intolerable defect, we can become preoccupied with self-protection and less available to one another. The first and most important gift a caregiver can give is their undivided attention and the biggest mistake we can make in medicine is turning away from suffering. Finally, we ponder if for both patients and physicians, life, in the end, is meant to be a mystery. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 6:37 – Unlearning preconceived perspectives on suffering, technology, and human experience. 13:08 – Engaging with digital technology critically instead of presuming that technological progress is inherently good. 19:28 – Suffering as an irradicable and sometimes necessary element of the human condition. 27:50 – Helping young terminal patients grapple with their diagnosis as a palliative care doctor. 36:36 – How the pursuit of immortality can lead to moral sickness. 47:08 – How digital technologies are inciting a collective disembodiment from reality. 53:15 – Practices that will positively impact the modern lived experience. Explore our guests’ past episodes on The Doctor’s Art: Human Experience in A Digital World | Christine Rosen, PhD A Philosophy of Grief | Mikolaj Slawkowski-Rode, PhD The Beauty of Impermanence | Sunita Puri, MD If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
#163
January 27 · 53 min
Reclaiming Narrative in Medicine | Suzanne Koven, MD, MFA
Most medical encounters are structured as transactions. The patient comes in with a specific complaint, the medical expert identifies a discrete problem, and a specific intervention is prescribed. But at the heart of a medical encounter is a story. When a patient comes in with a medical problem, the problem cannot be disentangled from their life’s narrative — doing so risks hollowing out the essence of what it means to care for another person. Our guest on this episode is award-winning author, and primary care physician Suzanne Koven, MD. Following the completion of her residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital, Dr. Koven joined the faculty at Harvard Medical School and practiced primary care medicine at Massachusetts General for 32 years. In 2019, she became the inaugural Writer in Residence at Mass General. Her writings have been published broadly—including in The Boston Globe, The New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, and The New Yorker. As a teacher and public speaker, she highlights the relationship between literature and medicine, and is a powerful advocate for female medical trainees. In this episode, Dr. Koven shares her journey to medicine at a time when few women were represented in the field and why she finds her undergraduate English classes to be more relevant to her clinical work than her science classes. We discuss narrative medicine, its value to patients and physicians alike, and how the modern healthcare system struggles to value the patient story. Finally, Dr. Koven leaves us with her advice for up-and-coming trainees: find a place in medicine where you can be yourself – for your own good and for your patients’. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:00 - Dr. Koven’s motivations for going into primary care medicine 15:49 - The impact that Dr. Koven’s English degree has had on her approach to medicine 19:36 - What narrative medicine is 24:34 - What is lost when human connection and human story are deprioritized within the practice of medicine 31:15 - The benefits doctors experience when cultivating an appreciation for the arts 37:21 - How gender representation in medicine has shaped Dr. Koven’s experience as a physician 42:54 - The need for the culture of medicine to adapt to changing demographics in the medical workforce If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
January 13 · 55 min
The Physician and His Doctor | Bryant Lin, MD & Heather Wakelee, MD
Dr. Bryant Lin is a primary care physician, educator, and researcher at Stanford University. In 2018, he founded CARE – the Center for Asian Health Research and Education. In 2023, CARE began a focused research effort investigating lung cancer in non-smoking Asians. In 2024, Dr. Lin was diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, having never smoked in his life. After his diagnosis, Dr. Lin sprung into action. He began receiving care from Dr. Heather Wakelee – a Stanford oncologist specializing in lung cancer. Dr Wakelee is the Deputy Director of the Stanford Cancer Institute, the Division Chief of Medical Oncology, and a leader in the International Association for the Study of Lung Cancer. In this episode, we are privileged to be joined by both Dr. Lin and his oncologist, Dr. Wakelee. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Lin describes the experience of receiving and living with a diagnosis that has been life changing for both him and his family. He details his remarkable efforts to leverage his diagnosis for the good of patients and rising medical professionals — and explains how spiritual practices have helped sustain him through this difficult time. Dr. Wakelee shares her approach to first visits with patients facing daunting cancer diagnoses, how she approaches grief, and the unique privilege and challenge of treating a colleague. Together, the doctor and his physician explore the value of hope in cancer, the dangers of false hope, and the importance of maximizing meaning in life — however much time is left. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:50 - Dr. Lin’s experience of being diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer despite having never smoked 14:20 - Dr. Wakelee’s approach to first visits with newly diagnosed lung cancer patients 25:35 - Dr. Lin’s experience of shifting from the mindset of “doctor” to the mindset of “patient” 30:30 - How a doctor’s messaging can affect the patient’s outlook on their diagnosis 43:00 - The common themes prevalent across religions and spiritual orientations that support patients in the navigation of serious illness 50:24 - Advice to doctors for finding deeper meaning in medicine Listen to Dr. Lin’s first appearance on The Doctor’s Art. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2026
Dec 23, 2025 · 53 min
Joyspan and Aging | Kerry Burnight, MD
Many of us quietly accept the idea that our best self lives somewhere in the past — that youth is the ideal and aging is a slow erosion of who we really are. But what if getting older isn’t about losing our identity, but deepening it? What if the second half of life could be defined not by decline, but by “joyspan”—our capacity for meaning, connection, and contentment as we age? Our guest on this episode is gerontologist and author Kerry Burnight, PhD. As a professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Medicine, Dr. Burnight spent 16 years caring for older adults suffering neglect and abuse. She co-founded the nation’s first Elder Abuse Forensic Center, bringing together medicine, adult protective services, and law enforcement to protect vulnerable older adults. Her search for how to help people not just avoid harm, but truly thrive into their later decades led to her work on joyspan, culminating in her New York Times best-selling book Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life’s Second Half (2025). Her work has been featured in outlets including The New York Times, The Guardian, BBC News, and Forbes Health. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Burnight details the experience of working with older adults suffering from neglect and abuse, the importance of team camaraderie for getting through dark moments, and the need to humanize people going through dehumanizing situations. We discuss joyspan as well-being and fulfillment combined with longevity; how focusing on growing, connecting, adapting, and giving can increase joyspan; how the internalized belief that we have less to offer as we age threatens joyspan; and how older adults are uniquely positioned to contribute to society. Dr. Burnight reminds us that joyspan is a health habit, and the best time to start focusing on this health habit is today. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:00 - The story behind the first Elder Abuse Forensics Center 11:45 - Dr. Burnight’s advice for frontline workers navigating cases of elder abuse 15:05 - How social connection improves health outcomes 24:00 - Defining joy and how joy can coexist with aging 33:15 - How our personal outlook on aging can impact our aging experience 44:30 - The four elements of joyspan 48:30 - Ways to build meaning into your life If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#160
Dec 16, 2025 · 53 min
Don’t Just Do Something, Stand There | Brewer Eberly, MD
Many of the world’s best physicians find it surprisingly difficult to answer the question: Why are you in medicine? In the long, arduous journey of medical training or within the technocratically-minded healthcare system, one can easily get lost in the life of the mind—and become estranged from the life of the heart. Our guest on this episode is Brewer Eberly, MD, a third-generation family physician and a fellow at Duke Divinity School’s Theology, Medicine, and Culture Initiative. Dr. Eberly grew up listening to physicians in his family discuss their work and was drawn to how life’s biggest questions are present in medicine. Now, his research focuses on the intersections of medicine, aesthetics, and theology — with a special focus on the “nourishment of weary clinicians.” Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Eberly shares how his early interests in art and literature continue to shape his life and work, and how the privilege of accompanying patients in all stages of life motivates his practice. We discuss how family medicine requires practitioners to have something to say about the well-lived life, and how this kind of wisdom is forged in silent contemplation. Finally, Dr. Eberly concludes with a profound and personal reflection on the question: What does it mean to willingly receive the suffering of someone that you cannot fix? In this episode, you’ll learn about: 2:36 - Dr. Eberly’s medical and creative origin stories 10:45 - What makes family medicine unique, and Dr. Eberly’s approach to his work 22:30 - How Dr. Eberly tries to stay connected to the meaning of medicine 29:00 - The “Good Surgeon Project” 37:45 - Dr. Eberly’s view of the limitations of artificial intelligence in medicine 43:30 - Ways of engaging with and being present for the suffering of patients If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#159
Nov 19, 2025 · 56 min
The Three Dimensions of a Fulfilling Life | Shigehiro Oishi, PhD
We often confuse happiness with the absence of sadness, or a meaningful life with a productive one. The result might be a life that runs smoothly, but feels strangely flat — as if something essential is missing from the story. What if a truly good life isn’t just happy and meaningful, but also interesting? Our guest today is Shige Oishi, PhD, professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and author of Life in Three Dimensions (2025). Oishi pioneered the idea of psychological richness — the notion that a good life requires a diverse set of interesting, even disorienting experiences. As an expert in social ecology and well-being, his work spans more than 200 scientific articles and has been featured in outlets such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal. Over the course of our conversation, professor Oishi traces his own journey from an undergraduate in booming-economy Tokyo — surrounded by overworked, unhappy adults — to a career in psychology in the United States, where seeing professors live differently opened his eyes to alternative ways of being. We explore how cultures like Japan, the United States, Finland, and Denmark differ in what they chase and expect from life; why small, everyday joys and high-quality relationships matter more than grand achievements; and how “success” and “ambition” can quietly shape our sense of happiness. We then dive into psychological richness as a third dimension of the good life alongside happiness and meaning — one defined by variety, newness, and memorable stories, often colored by both positive and negative emotions. We discuss the risks of chasing only stability and efficiency; the importance of spontaneity; and the surprisingly simple ways we can cultivate psychological richness by staying curious and saying “yes” more often. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 3:00 - Oishi’s path to studying the psychology of wellbeing 8:45 - Rising competitiveness in American culture and how it is affecting lifelong happiness 13:30 - Why Finland and Denmark are regularly rated the happiest countries 15:55 - Whether there is a “correct” way to find meaning and happiness 19:15 - What it means to be “psychologically rich” 28:00 - Balancing positive and negative emotions in a happy, meaningful, and psychologically rich life 41:30 - Developing psychological richness 45:45 - How psychological richness can help address physician burnout If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#158
Nov 4, 2025 · 58 min
A Humanist Approach to Chaplaincy | Greg Epstein
When a religious person is isolated from their community, whether due to hospitalization or military service, they can often rely on a chaplain for spiritual support. But where does a non-religious person turn when facing the same circumstances? And what tools do they have for meaning making? Our guest is Greg Epstein, humanist chaplain at Harvard and MIT and author of the New York Times bestselling book Good Without God. As a humanist chaplain, Greg has spent his career building ethical communities that are united around the idea that human sociality and interdependence are a sufficient foundation for a meaningful life. Greg’s writings have been published widely, including in TIME magazine and The Washington Post, and he is a prominent public speaker in humanist and interfaith communities. In our conversation, Greg explains the role of a humanist chaplain, why a humanist chaplain is not necessarily an oxymoron, and how he guides individuals on their meaning-making journey. We discuss Greg’s candidate for the world’s most powerful word and a humanist’s argument for pursuing the work of healing over wealth. And finally, Greg walks us through the thesis of his most recent book Tech Agnostic – how technology has become a religion of its own, with a particular set of downsides. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:30 - Mr Epstein’s personal definitions of ‘chaplain’ and ‘religion’ 8:23 - How Mr. Epstein uses a humanist framework to guide meaning-making 24:35 - Is there an absolute ‘good’? 33:25 - The risks of technology as a religion 45:30 - Advice for medical professionals engaged in the work of healing while operating within a system built for profit Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#157
Oct 28, 2025 · 1 hr 1 min
The Morals and Morale of Healthcare Providers | Farr Curlin, MD
Many medical trainees are driven to medicine by their moral or religious principles — only to find that they are expected to check their principles at the patient’s door. When this happens, physicians and patients may lose the opportunity for deeper, more healing relationships. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Farr Curlin, a hospitalist and palliative care physician at Duke University School of Medicine. Dr. Curlin holds joint appointments in the Trent Center for Bioethics, Humanities & History of Medicine and Duke Divinity School, where he studies the intersection of medicine, ethics, and religion. From a young age, Dr. Curlin was intrigued by the moral dimensions of medicine. As a medical trainee, he began to study how the religious backgrounds of physicians inform their practice. He is the co-author of The Way of Medicine, in which he challenges the modern “provider of services” model and calls for a recovery of medicine’s spiritual foundations as a healing profession. Now, at Duke Divinity School, he spends significant time helping physicians re-center their practice around the question: “What is Good?” Over the course of our conversation, we discuss attitudes toward religion in the medical profession and how many medical professionals worry that being openly religious may make them seem retrograde — or worse. We explore striking the balance between offering physician wisdom while respecting patient autonomy, consider whether the project of medicine makes sense when viewed through the lens of secular humanism, and reflect on how the physician attributes of humility and respect enable physicians to productively bring their full selves to the bedside, all while practicing medicine within a morally pluralistic society. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:48 - Dr. Curlin’s path to medicine and what drew him to a career at the intersection of religion and medicine 19:30 - Dr. Curlin’s thoughts on why doctors often feel they cannot be openly religious 35:45 - How Dr. Curlin would change medical training to create a deeper focus on personal commitments and moral conviction 41:15 - Exploring the limitations of artificial agnosticism at the patient’s bedside 51:50 - How fostering a spiritual connection to the work of healing can mitigate burnout Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#156
Oct 7, 2025 · 52 min
The Mandate of Medicine | Jessica Zitter, MD
Medical trainees spend years mastering what to do when biology fails — countless protocols, procedures, and split-second decisions. By the end, they’re primed to fix what’s broken. But what if the mandate of medicine is simpler — and more human? Our guest on this episode is Dr. Jessica Zitter — a physician, author, and filmmaker who has spent her career at the fault line between intensive care and palliative care. Dr. Zitter was initially drawn to the technical choreography in the ICU: numbers to chase, procedures to perform. Yet, along the way, she began to notice the danger we rarely name — that in our devotion to protocol, we might drift away from the person in front of us. Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Zitter shares personal experiences that have shaped her approach to medicine. We talk about moral injury and how it compounds: when systems push us to act against our values, care gets worse, and the hurt deepens. We talk about how bias slips in when power meets prejudice at the bedside and why chaplains — so often sidelined — can be essential guides back to the human being we’re treating. Her prescription is simple: treat patients as you’d want your own loved ones to be treated. Ask for the story. Reconstruct the person we’ve taken apart into smaller pieces. Dr. Zitter is the author of her memoir Extreme Measures, appears in the Academy Award-nominated short film Extremis, and is the director of several documentaries, including 2025’s The Chaplain & the Doctor. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:45 - Dr. Zitter’s path to a career in intensive care medicine 4:52 - A day in the life of an intensivist 17:42 - Dr. Zitter’s unexpected pivot to prioritizing palliative care in her work 26:41 - The inspiration for Dr. Zitter’s film The Chaplain and the Doctor 38:36 - How chaplaincy attends to the soul of the patient and what doctors can learn from this perspective 42:51 - Navigating internalized bias as a doctor 49:42 - Dr. Zitter’s advice for her younger self Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#155
Sep 18, 2025 · 59 min
The Power of Data Driven Narrative in Public Health | David Agus, MD
Editorial Note: This episode was recorded in December 2024, after the nomination of Robert F Kennedy Jr as Secretary of Health and Human Services had been announced but prior to his confirmation. Some comments by the podcast hosts and our guest will reflect this timing. Elephants rarely get cancer, ants quarantine when sick, and altruistic pigs have a higher pain tolerance. In this episode, we discuss insights from the animal world that shed light on human health and wellness, as well as the power of data driven narratives in effective public health education. Our guest is Dr. David Agus, founding CEO of the Ellison Medical Institute and professor of medicine and engineering at the University of Southern California. As a CBS news contributor and author of three New York Times best selling books on health, Dr. Agus emphasizes the need for experts who are willing to explain rather than tell. Having experienced the politicization of public health during the pandemic, he highlights the importance of data transparency and the urgency for more physician leaders. With technological advances making data collection and analysis ever more accessible, Dr. Agus shares a vision for the future of medicine, where patients bring their own health data to the clinic and physicians act as educators guided by the values of their patients. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:30 - Dr. Agus’s journey to medicine and how he found his way to focusing on preventative health and public education 6:50 - Navigating the politicized nature of public health as a public health educator 14:17 - Dr. Agus’s viewpoint on the controversial nominations of RFK Jr. and Dr. Oz 19:51 - How the education of doctor needs to change to adapt to our newly data driven world 24:20 - The current state of nutrition science and how people can make the best choices with the current data available on the topic 32:12 - The potential benefits of making big data in electronic medical records available to physicians 32:48 - The inspiration behind Dr. Agus’s new book, The Book of Animal Secrets, and what the animal kingdom can teach us as humans about living a more fulfilling and healthy life 52:11 - A vision for empowering patients with their personal medical data in the age of AI 54:31 - Dr. Agus’s advice to clinicians on supporting patients with their preventative health Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025
#154
Jul 25, 2025 · 1 hr
Medicine at the Margins of Society | James O’Connell, MD
Imagine practicing medicine not within the sterile confines of a hospital, but in the unpredictable world of city streets and shelters, where every patient encounter challenges conventional notions of care, empathy, and human dignity. We explore this reality through the extraordinary journey of Jim O'Connell, MD, whose groundbreaking work with Boston's homeless population has profoundly reshaped health care for society's most marginalized individuals. Dr. O'Connell is the founding president of the Boston Healthcare for the Homeless Program and an assistant professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. In this episode, Dr. O’Connell shares stories from his extensive frontline experience, detailing the unique challenges of treating patients facing complex medical and psychiatric conditions exacerbated by unstable living conditions. From addressing devastating public health crises such as AIDS and tuberculosis to establishing consistent mental health care, he provides profound insights into what makes healthcare effective for homeless populations. He also reflects on a formative early experience — being asked by nurses to wash patients feet — that deeply influenced his understanding of empathy and the essence of medical service. Through these reflections, we gain a powerful appreciation for the depth of patience, relational care, and respect required in caring for vulnerable communities. In this episode, you’ll hear about: 2:00 - Dr. O’Connell’s unexpected path to medicine 11:34 - The distinction between a “country doctor” and a doctor who works in an academic setting 13:42 - How Dr. O’Connell began working with homeless populations 20:30 - The difficulties doctors faced in the early years of the HIV/AIDS epidemic 29:14 - Navigating the compounding challenges of access and continuity among the homeless population 37:12 - What has kept Dr. O’Connell dedicated to treating this population for 30+ years 51:24 - Dr. O’Connell’s recommendations to clinicians on how to compassionately serve the homeless Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com. Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025

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