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Outlawed

Beverly Gray & Jonas Swartz

In the wild west of abortion bans and restrictions, patients, families, and their doctors are being treated like outlaws. OB-Gyns and abortion care providers Bev and Jonas embrace the American tradition of fighting injustice by sharing their direct line to what’s actually happening in our homes and medical offices.

Each episode’s powerful stories, experts, and resources help us grasp the aftermath of outlawing healthcare and how to talk about it with the people you know. Even with Uncle Bob. Especially with Uncle Bob.

Brought to you by Dr. Beverly Gray, Dr. Jonas Swartz, and Jane Marie’s Little Everywhere.

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20 episodes
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Avg 33 min
English

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S3 · E1
Today · 38 min
More than just a pinch
It’s no wonder that the podcast The Retrievals was launched by true crime favorites Serial Productions and the NYT. As host Susan Burton tells Bev and Jonas on Outlawed, the first season of the hit show underscored how women’s pain in IVF treatments intersected with a criminal investigation. The original perpetrator was stopped, but what was uncovered about how pain is perceived and treated or ignored affects every aspect of reproductive healthcare. In this two episode series on pain with IUD insertion, Bev and Jonas make full use of Susan Burton’s investigative journalist’s practiced lens to examine the complex dynamics between doctor and patient, pain and the perception of pain, and how doctors and patients can use language and take actions together for patient comfort. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: hello@outlawedpodcast.com or call out Outlawed hotline at 919-442-8101 Learn more about the podcast here: https://outlawedpodcast.com/outlawed/ For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our newsletter here.
August 27 · 3 min
Outlawed Season 3 Trailer!
Season 3 is coming your way with new episodes every week starting September 10th! We start the season talking about pain: interviewing Susan Burton (host and producer of The Retrievals) and Dr. Ghazeleh Moayedi, founder of Pegasus Health Justice center. Together we dive into the topic of pain and how we can better address it. We’ll have a series about the challenges of training Ob-Gyn’s in the wake of the Dobbs decision. We talk with trans rights super-hero - Chase Strangio of the ACLU- about the overlap between the attacks on trans health and abortion rights. And we’ll continue to interview folks telling us the stories and explaining the science of abortion bans in the US.
August 6 · 45 min
Feed drop: The fight for abortion training from Bodies
Enjoy today's guest episode from Bodies, produced and hosted by Allison Behringer. The overturning of Roe v. Wade has severely restricted how doctors can access training in abortion care and it's already having a devastating ripple effect on patients seeking all kinds of reproductive care. Two medical residents in abortion-restricted states fight for training and for the future health of their patients. Plus, the centuries-long battle over who gets access to abortion training in the first place. Transcript at kcrw.com/bodies. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com or call out Outlawed hotline at 919-442-8101 Learn more about the podcast here: https://outlawedpodcast.com/outlawed/ For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter outlawed.substack.com
July 25 · 33 min
Feed Drop - Pregnancy of unknown location with CREOGs over coffee
While we're taking a break this summer we're excited to share some re-runs and episodes from other podcast friends. Today's episode takes a deep dive into the common 1st trimester clinical conundrum of pregnancy of unknown location. Listen along as Nick and Fei talk with Dr. Erin Cleary about pregnancy of unknown location and ectopic pregnancy. Have an IUD story you want to share for the podcast? Call 919-442-8101. Leave a voicemail with your story and we might share it on one of our Season 3 IUD episodes. (The voicemail will cut you off at 3 min, just FYI. Feel free to leave a second message.) Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com Learn more about the podcast here: https://outlawedpodcast.com/outlawed/ For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter outlawed.substack.com
July 9 · 35 min
Everything's bigger in Texas, even abortion bans (re-run from Season 1)
The stories out of Texas are numerous and heartbreaking. In our third episode of Outlawed, we’ll meet two people from Texas. One is a high-risk OB-gyn physician who cares for some of the sickest patients and pregnancies. She talks about the impact of the Texas abortion ban (SB8) and Dobbs on the healthcare she can provide people and explains why these laws lead to substandard care. The second person we will meet is Lisa, a patient who had to flee Texas after receiving a devastating diagnosis during her routine second trimester ultrasound. Have an IUD story you want to share for the podcast? Call 919-442-8101. Leave a voicemail with your story and we might share it on one of our Season 3 IUD episodes. (The voicemail will cut you off at 3 min, just FYI. Feel free to leave a second message.) Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter outlawed.substack.com Learn more about the podcast here: https://outlawedpodcast.com/outlawed/
June 24 · 29 min
4 years later: Why learn about abortion? (re-run from season 1)
As we reflect on the 4 year anniversary of the Dobbs decision, we wanted to go back and share our very first episode of the podcast from Fall of 2024. We introduce you to our hosts, Dr. Beverly Gray and Dr. Jonas Swartz, along with a woman named Sally, a nurse who answers the phone at an abortion clinic and is the first point of contact for those seeking care in North Carolina. Whether you’ve broached a topic like abortion with Uncle Bob or are about to, we want to hear from you! Call our new hotline: 919-442-8101. That’s 919-442-8101. Power on! (The voicemail will cut you off at 3 min, just FYI. Feel free to leave a second message.) Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter here.
S2 · E19
June 11 · 21 min
Conversation Mode: Power On!
Summer’s here and it’s time for Outlawed’s season 2 finale! Bev and Jonas reflect on the podcast’s original goals of making it easier to have those tough conversations about abortion, and highlight some of the best advice from show guests so far to spark your confidence at poolside gatherings and backyard barbecues. Plus, hear what we have in store for the September launch of season 3. Whether you’ve broached a topic like abortion with Uncle Bob or are about to, we want to hear from you! Call our new hotline: 919-442-8101. That’s 919-442-8101. Power on! (The voicemail will cut you off at 3 min, just FYI. Feel free to leave a second message.) Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter here.
S2 · E18
May 28 · 43 min
Is adoption an alternative to abortion?
Many people we know and love are adopted or have adopted, but where adoption fits into a reproductive justice framework is nuanced and complex. Dr. Gretchen Sisson, a researcher at Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH) at UCSF, has been studying adoption systems and interviewing birth mothers for over a decade. In this moving conversation she dispels myths about abortion, adoption, and the choice to parent, and advocates for an eyes-wide-open approach to positive change. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Sign up for our substack newsletter here.
S2 · E17
May 8 · 35 min
League of Mifepristone Defenders
Last week's rollercoaster of legal rulings and misinformation about mifepristone is enough to cause whiplash. Even Bev and Jonas are confused! So these two justice-seeking OB-Gyns activated the bat signal for all defenders of abortion pill access, and got three reproductive health superheroes into the studio, stat. Legal professor David Cohen, public health specialist Dr. Ushma Upahdyay, and abortion provider Dr. Robin Wallace break down the Louisiana case, bust mife myths, and share what’s next no matter what happens at the Supreme Court on Monday May 11th. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E16
April 23 · 38 min
Beyond Limits with Dr. Shelley Sella
It was nearly 17 years ago that Dr. George Tiller was assassinated in his church for providing abortion care. In this episode, Bev and Jonas speak with retired OB-Gyn Dr. Shelley Sella, who was trained by Dr. Tiller, and calls him “a midwife at heart.” She became one of the first women to openly provide third-trimester abortion care in the United States, and advocates for a midwifery model of care that centers the patient and prioritizes observation and patience. Her book, Beyond Limits: Stories of Third-Trimester Abortion Care (Beacon Press) is a testament to the critical importance of abortion without restrictions, and comes out in paperback on May 26th. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Link to donate here. Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E15
April 9 · 32 min
Under the Gynfluence With Dr. Fran
Wandering wombs? Terrifying tampons? After-birth abortions? Science keeps advancing, but peddlers of misinformation persist. In this episode, fact-wielding OB-Gyns Bev and Jonas become a myth-busting trio with the addition of OB-Gyn Dr. Fran, who went viral fighting shady claims with clarity and humor in the arenas of TikTok and Instagram. With tips on how to distinguish legitimate accounts, when to engage, and what works best in a medium too short for nuance, you might just be inspired to become a trusted source of facts about reproductive health in your own online communities. Find Dr. Fran on social media @PagingDrFran Want a cool contraception sweater? https://pagingdrfran-shop.fourthwall.com/ Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E14
March 26 · 33 min
About that new Guttmacher report
The who, where, when, and how of abortion in the United States is challenging to measure, yet understanding the healthcare landscape post-Dobbs remains important for meeting patient needs. The Guttmacher Institute is a trusted source for abortion data collection and analysis, and released full-year 2025 abortion incidence and travel data this week. Bev and Jonas ask all their nerdy questions and receive thoughtful answers from Guttmacher data scientist Isaac Maddow-Zimet. Together, they form a poignant picture of the lengths people will go to obtain care, and why the benefits of data collection outweigh the risks. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 Have an idea for a guest or a topic? Email us here: outlawedpodcast@gmail.com For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E13
March 11 · 35 min
Parenting is a serious business. Jamilah Lemieux can help.
As abortion providers with families of their own, Bev and Jonas know that abortion is an essential part of many parenting stories. There is no right way to have a family, though today’s guest Jamilah Lemieux will offer great advice and insight if you ask. Jamilah is an author and cultural critic, and pens the Care and Feeding advice column for Slate. She chose both motherhood and abortion as a single parent, and her experiences inspired her to talk to other Black single mothers for her new book, “Black. Single. Mother. Real Life Tales of Longing and Belonging (Penguin Random House 2026), which just came out! Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here. For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Email us at outlawedpodcast@gmail.com.
S2 · E12
February 26 · 48 min
Meet the abortion pill revolution
Bev and Jonas leave their white coats and their egos behind to better understand the existing network of abortion care outside the clinic. Science journalist Rebecca Kelliher, author of the book Just Pills: The Extraordinary Story of A Revolution in Abortion Care (Beacon Press 2025), provides global context to the like-minded outlaws and heroes making medication abortion accessible. Public health specialist and Plan C co-founder Elisa Wells (plancpills.org) offers a first-hand account of the innovative research transforming how you get pills by mail in all 50 states, despite the bans. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 Check out our substack newsletter here: outlawed.substack.com
S2 · E11
February 12 · 50 min
The Pregnancy Police State
We’re doctors, not cops. But as more and more miscarriages and self-managed abortions lead to arrests and prosecution, the medical system and law enforcement have become entwined in unsettling ways. Kim Mutcherson, a law professor at Rutgers and expert on reproductive justice, helps us understand the new reality of medical providers reporting patients for essential healthcare, and the biases that influence whose care is criminalized.
S2 · E10
January 28 · 34 min
Lessons from the underground
Heather Booth is an original outlaw who provided access to abortion care before Roe, as a founding member of the Jane Collective. Bev and Jonas are thrilled to get a masterclass from 80-year-old Booth this week in how word-of-mouth networks, resolve, and hope can fuel the fight against injustice right now. Saddle up and join us.
S2 · E9
January 14 · 33 min
"After Dobbs": A conversation with authors David Cohen and Carole Joffe
Who is your favorite dynamic duo? Batman and Robin? He-man and She-ra? You probably don’t have a sociologist and lawyer pair on your list, but we would argue that you should! This week Bev and Jonas have a conversation with an amazing duo - law Professor David Cohen and sociologist Dr. Carole Joffe. They wrote a book last year called "After Dobbs: How the Supreme Court ended Roe but not abortion." Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/ Email us at outlawedpodcast@gmail.com.
Dec 30, 2025 · 29 min
Re-run from Season 1: Are women people?
We're replaying one of our favorites from season 1 - an interview with Professor Katie Watson from Northwestern. She is the author of Scarlet A: The ethics, law, and politics of ordinary abortion and has been widely published in the medical literature regarding the ethics of reproductive health care. We discuss a variety of topics on today’s show including: myths about abortion after birth, the impact of abortion bans on other aspects of reproductive health care (like IVF), and Katie’s thoughts about the Dobbs decision. Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E8
Dec 18, 2025 · 29 min
The Helpers Part 2: Planes, trains, and automobiles
Traveling during the holidays is full of unexpected mishaps due to the sheer numbers of fellow travelers. Travelling for an abortion is challenging all year round — because lawmakers have designed it that way. In front of every obstacle, people who care are there to help others through it with dignity. Bev and Jonas meet Mike Bonanza of Elevated Access, a pilot flying people privately for free to states with abortion care. Amanda Rich, executive director of Faith Roots Reproduction Action, then shares what a difference abortion fund volunteers can make in arranging secure transit and accommodations as well as covering costs like gas money and child care. Support these great organizations on their websites! https://www.elevatedaccess.org/ https://www.faithrootsrepro.org/ Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053 For Outlawed merch: https://outlawedpodcast.com/merch/
S2 · E7
Dec 10, 2025 · 24 min
The Helpers Part 1: Finding room at the inn
You’ve driven hundreds of miles to get an abortion. Took off work (unpaid), and so did your partner, who’s home with the kids. Staying overnight is a necessity but too expensive, and will it even be safe and comfortable enough for you to rest? Around two hundred thousand abortion patients make long journeys each year in search of care. Toshiko of With Gloria matches abortion travelers to last-minute vacancies in donated Airbnbs from everyday sidekicks like Persephone. Over the next two episodes, Bev and Jonas meet the helpers who are reducing the harm of Dobbs in unexpected and uplifting ways. Support With Gloria: https://withgloria.org/ Want to make a tax-deductible donation to support our work and keep us ad-free? Go here: https://www.gifts.duke.edu/dukehealth?designation=391001053

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