More or Less

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

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Friday · 55 min
AI Agents Are Going Rogue. Should We Be Worried?
Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave 3:21 The recursive Sam loop 8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes 15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents? 19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off 22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money? 24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer 26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents? 28:46 Suds joins the podcast 33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars 39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow 42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck 46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva? 51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on Facebook We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
August 28 · 54 min
Meta’s $17B Reckoning & Why Parents Can’t Compete With Big Tech's Algorithm
Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era. Chapters: 0:00 Episode start 1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working 4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era 7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement 33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful? 38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate 43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell 49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy 57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-off We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/6HO6naKM8yE Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
August 21 · 56 min
Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash
Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:00 Episode start 4:00 This week in AI 5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter 8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions? 11:00 The agentic commerce bet 14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant 17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz 22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI 26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise 28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies? 30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history” 33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade? 36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism 37:30 Grok enters the AI race 41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable 45:00 The AI data center backlash 47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks” 48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure? 53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers 55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
August 14 · 58 min
Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng
A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters 0:00 Episode trailer 1:24 Episode start 1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital 5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon 7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents 8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust? 11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing 16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat 22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data 27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans 31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk? 34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute 35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates? 39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out? 42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving 47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook 49:14 What actually happened with Airtable 50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing 53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes 54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense 57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
August 7 · 55 min
Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era
Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 1:07 Episode Start 2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio 3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana 5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back 8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs 10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars 19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons 25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead 27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook 30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs 31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud 35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash 40:53 Why People Still Hate AI 43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem 45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big 48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X 50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma 53:40 Next Week on More or Less We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspod Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
July 31 · 59 min
Zuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down
New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:23 Episode start 9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers 11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands 13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money 15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals 17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic 18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI 21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire 22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company 24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi 26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology 27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance 28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit 29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War 32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started 39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now 46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI 53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning 54:57 Book The Conference Before You're Invited We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtM Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
July 24 · 1 hr 1 min
Did OpenAI Stage Its Own Cyber Incident? | Stripe Buying Paypal, Frontier Model Economics, Peptides
Deep summer check-in from the More or Less squad. Dave is back on Instagram after a year away (thanks to Stagecoach), Jessica reviews Benson Boone's Wanted Man tour, Chris Stapleton's Montana show gets a shoutout, and Sam is traveling with a Yeti cooler full of peptides. Don’t worry, this is still a tech podcast: OpenAI revealed an AI that escaped its testing sandbox and hacked Hugging Face. The crew's hot take is that OpenAI is leaning into the story to strengthen its narrative as revenue growth slows. Then, Stripe could be eyeing PayPal. Sam argues Stripe missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity by staying private instead of using public stock as acquisition currency the way Meta did with WhatsApp. They also explain why agentic commerce still isn't real, despite the hype. Plus, “Peptide Corner” returns with reports from the Hamptons, where peptides have officially gone mainstream, rich people inflation has reached $67 for two cappuccinos and sandwiches, and Sam shares an update on his recovering knee. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 2:07 Dave Returns to Instagram, Sam Turns 43, and More 8:41 OpenAI's AI Escaped Its Sandbox 16:43 The National Guard Analogy 31:57 Sam's Bot Rebellion Theory 37:44 Is Stripe Buying PayPal? 47:48 Why Agentic Commerce Isn't Here Yet 49:40 Peptide Corner 52:53 Rich People Inflation 54:03 Sam's Knee Recovery 56:47 The GLP-1 Playbook We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/460NqsdQm5A Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
July 17 · 50 min
AI Regulatory Capture Bet: Why OpenAI & Anthropic Stopped Competing on Tech
You know we're deep into summer when Jess leaves the pod early to catch Benson Boone... for the eighth time. This week, the More or Less squad revisits the Anthropic and OpenAI IPO speculation. Their views haven't changed, but their AI usage certainly has. Dave ditches Anthropic for GLM 5.2 on cost, while Sam argues the AI model wars are effectively over, and the frontier labs know it, which is why they're spending more time in Washington than competing on model quality. America also gets its first serious open weights model. The squad also unpacks OpenAI's hardware ambitions after its much-hyped device turns out to be... an Alexa speaker. Sam explains why Sam Altman's $8 billion Johnny Ive acquisition was effectively free, thanks to narrative capitalism. Plus: real-time voice AI, passive listening devices, peptides, Hinge's new social proof feature, Jay-Z turning New York into a festival, and why biological age tests are basically the clout score of your body. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Teaser 0:44 Episode Start 2:18 Anthropic IPO This September? 5:29 Dave Dumps Anthropic for GLM 5. 28:22 When Is Better AI Worth Paying For? 12:15 AGI Is Dead, AI Is Political Now 16:15 America's First Open Weights Model By Thinking Machines 21:22 Why Sam Is Depressed About AI 29:07 OpenAI Built... an Alexa? The $8B Johnny Ive Bet 31:38 Silicon Valley Goes Hollywood 36:03 Would You Wear an Always-On Mic? 37:08 OpenAI's Live Voice Model 41:14 Sam's Peptide Experiment 43:36 Hinge Launches “Friend’s Take” 46:11 Jay-Z's NYC Takeover 48:16 Biological Age Is Just a Clout Score We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/B6fO5V09xOc Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
July 10 · 55 min
OpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal?
The full quad is back, unpacking OpenAI's offer to give the U.S. government an equity stake. Sam's take: it's less a marketing win than a distress signal. The squad also debates whether Trump Accounts actually reach everyday Americans (Brit is skeptical), defends MacKenzie Scott from the internet's endless opinions about her philanthropy, and digs into Dave's argument that AI labs are slowly strangling the developer ecosystems that could save them.They also tackle Xbox's identity crisis and whether Microsoft should just sell it, the Nex Playground device (In Sam's words: non-VR Beat Saber for families), why 2026 is shaping up to be extreme nihilism wrapped in Silicon Valley optimism, Brit's take that AI has shifted from revolutionary to evolutionary, and, of course in pop culture corner, Brit claiming full credit for calling the Taylor Swift wedding strategy. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 0:47 Episode Begins 1:10 Fourth of July Recap, Bald Eagles & the No VC Summer 5:10 OpenAI Offered the U.S. Government Equity 11:15 Trump Accounts, Giving Every American Kid a Stake in Capitalism 15:02 Stop Judging MacKenzie Scott's Philanthropy 18:40 AI Labs Are Distressed and Destroying Their Ecosystems 21:50 AI Labs Are Competing With Their Own Developers 35:26 Xbox Is in Trouble, Should Microsoft Sell It? 37:52 Nex, the Quiet Wii Revival Nobody Saw Coming 41:49 Sam's 2026 Prediction: Extreme Nihilism Meets Silicon Valley Optimism 44:04 Vox Americanus Update 46:18 Brit Is Bored of AI. It's Evolution, Not Revolution 48:22 Post-AGI Funds Are a Bad Bet, Physical AI Could Be the Real Revolution 49:27 Going Long on Offline, World Cup, Concerts & Real Life 51:50 Pop Culture Corner: Brit Calls Taylor Swift's Wedding Strategy We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MoreorLessPod Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
July 3 · 54 min
Why Identity Verification Matters For The Internet | Vox Americanus, GLM 5.2, Claude Fable 5 Is Back
The full quad is back just before the Fourth of July. Dave and Sam explain why padel is just pickleball for fancy people, Sam vibe-coded an app to prove you’re actually American on the internet (Vox Americanus is real and you can use it: https://voxamericanus.com), and Dave even nominates Sam for office, even though Sam insists we should fix the job before electing anyone actually good for it. The crew also dives into why non-engineers are more capable than they think in the age of agentic coding, Claude Fable 5’s government clearance “drama” and return, how GLM 5.2 is quietly replacing Opus 4 on real agent stacks, why Anthropic is still printing revenue despite open source pressure, and the case for an open source router.. They wrap with pop culture corner: Taylor Swift wedding intel and Brit’s review of Alpha School. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 0:50 Episode start 1:12 Full Quad Pre-4th of July, Is There Such a Thing as VC Summer? 3:32 Padel Is the New VC Networking Sport, Pickleball Is for the Plebs 9:10 Vox Americanus, Can You Actually Prove You're American Online? 15:25 Should Sam Run for Office? Fix the Job Description First 29:30 Agentic Coding, You're Not Too Late 35:33 Claude Fable 5 Is Back, Government Clearance Drama Explained 41:08 GLM 5.2, Open Source Just Quietly Replaced Opus 4 46:16 Anthropic Still Printing Revenue, The Case for an Open Source Router 47:29 Taylor Swift's Wedding 49:36 Alpha School, Brit's Kids Try AI Education 52:12 America's 250th Birthday We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/zqmbW163QKQ Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
June 26 · 49 min
Chinese AI Model GLM 5.2 Beating Frontier Models | Meta Glasses, Polymarket Scandal, and More AI Talent War
The quad is back. Dave and Brit rejoin Sam and Jess fresh off a More or Less fan encounter at the Zurich airport. It was quite the week for Meta as the squad breaks down the company’s new line of glasses featuring Kylie Jenner (or, in Jess’ words, Kendall), and Brit makes the call that this is finally the watershed moment for women buying smart glasses ( The men seem to be the early adopters, Dave wore his in the Sistine Chapel, and Sam owns 10+ pairs.). Then they get into Meta’s prediction market: a genuinely interesting information machine or a very efficient way to addict twenty-somethings to fake gambling? In true MOL fashion, the squad is split. Sam is all in, Dave is worried it’ll work too well, and Brit thinks it’ll all click when you tie it to The Bachelor. Dave also ran GLM 5.2 on eight Nvidia B200s with some hacker friends and came away shaken. Open source is now matching, if not outperforming, frontier models at 10x the speed, raising uncomfortable questions about the enormous bets sitting on frontier labs today. Remember last year’s AI talent war? It’s back, and Jess argues it’s really an early indicator of investor insecurity. Finally, in pop culture corner: Cannes and Sam’s unsolicited review of The Information's new mobile app. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 0:50 Intro 1:12 MOL Got Recognized at the Zurich Airport 3:02 What’s on the Agenda Today 5:04 Meta Smart Glasses, The Moment Women Finally Buy In? 14:20 Meta’s Prediction Markets, Brilliant or Addictive? 19:39 Polymarket’s Influencer Problem 22:48 AI Talent Wars, Investors Are Reading the Wrong Signals 25:40 GLM 5.2 on Nvidia B200s, Open Source Catches Frontier Models 28:20 AI Token Spend, Sam’s $1,500/Month Experiment 31:04 Sam Reviews The Information App Live 36:17 Anthropic, Dell, and the Math Behind Generational Returns 43:30 Cannes Lions, Worth It or Corporate Boondoggle? We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/dbdH6dPMDxk Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
June 19 · 40 min
Elon Is the Best Financier of Our Generation
Sam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock. Chapters: 00:00 - Teaser 01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis 09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing 12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure 16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges 22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact 25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share 27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation 33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release 35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies 39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book Recommendation We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/ZVD3jS6Lexc Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
June 17 · 51 min
Teamshares IPO: $60M EBITDA, 92 Companies, Zero Exits
Seven years after Slow wrote its first check, Sam sits down with Teamshares CEO Mike Brown as the company prepares to go public. Mike’s core insight is simple: America has millions of durable, cash-flowing small businesses, but no great long-term owner. After buying and operating electrical contractors himself, he realized the opportunity wasn’t another marketplace or PE roll-up, it was building a permanent holding company that acquires great businesses, gives employees ownership, and never sells. Today, Teamshares owns 92 businesses generating roughly $60M in EBITDA. The conversation explores why most roll-ups fail, why capital allocation is the true operating system of the business, and why the traditional private equity model may be running out of steam. Mike closes with an ambitious goal: grow corporate EBITDA from $19M to $100M by 2027 and create a forever home for thousands of small businesses. Chapters: 00:00 Episode Teaser Featuring Mike Brown, Teamshares CEO 01:11 The Teamshares Origin Story 04:48 From Wall Street to Buying Small Businesses 10:47 Why Going Direct to Sellers Didn’t Work (The FSBO Problem) 13:18 Buying at Scale, The Teamshares Model 15:27 92 Acquisitions and $60M EBITDA, Lessons Learned 18:26 Why Generalist Hires Didn’t Work 19:08 Building a Leadership Pipeline 23:46 The Internal YC, Community Across Portfolio Companies 27:42 How Technology Powers 92 Businesses 28:08 “Will This Business Exist in 50 Years?” 32:21 Why Most Roll-Ups Fail 37:30 The Road to $100M EBITDA 39:51 The Long-Term Vision 40:58 Capital Allocation as a Competitive Advantage 42:34 Decentralized Leadership, Centralized Capital 46:16 Why Private Equity Fails Small Businesses 49:25 Going Public, What Comes Next We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/3tV4wdtZBuk Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit Important Disclosures and Disclaimers: Teamshares has entered into a definitive agreement for a business combination with Live Oak Crest Acquisition Corp. (“Live Oak”), a special purpose acquisition company. In connection with the proposed transaction, a registration statement on Form S-4 (the “Registration Statement”) has been filed with, and been declared effective by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”). This podcast does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. For important information about the proposed transaction, including where to find the Registration Statement and other legal disclaimers, please refer to the press release available at https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20260527344175/en/Teamshares-Announces-S-4-Effectiveness-in-Anticipation-of-Nasdaq-Listing.Clarifications: Teamshares currently has 93 operating subsidiaries. Additionally, Teamshares has had documented revenue declines and business closures. A full reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures, as well as Teamshares’ audited GAAP financial statements, is available in the Registration Statement. Investors should review the full set of assumptions and risk factors accompanying these metrics in the Registration Statement.
June 12 · 44 min
Apple’s New Siri, SpaceX’s $300B IPO & the AI Company Killing Its Own Brand
Dave joins the squad from YC just ahead of WWDC, where the group breaks down Apple’s upgraded Siri and the surprising revelation that much of Apple’s AI capability is powered by Google’s Gemini models. It wouldn’t be a technology podcast without the squad expanding into the broader AI landscape, with Dave arguing that outside of OpenAI and Anthropic, most AI companies are becoming infrastructure providers rather than destination products. They continue to unpack the IPO frenzy around SpaceX and OpenAI, including SpaceX’s reportedly massive investor demand and OpenAI’s murky timeline to go public. Jess then shifts the conversation to the turmoil at 60 Minutes, where leadership shakeups, internal revolts, and a declining brand presence raise questions about the future of legacy media. Finally, in Pop Culture Corner, the pod closes with Disney’s $200 million bet on Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift’s outsized promotional impact. Chapters: 01:53 Apple WWDC: New Siri Breakdown 05:18 Google Gemini Powers Apple AI 07:06 WWDC Ignored Developers Entirely 10:21 Tim Cook’s Leadership Baton Pass 14:30 SpaceX IPO and OpenAI Filing 18:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI Narrative War 21:48 Dave Morin’s Two-Phone Redemption 26:52 60 Minutes Leadership Implosion 38:44 Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/Yvox4U_8u1w Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
June 5 · 45 min
Silicon Valley IPO Summer 2026: SpaceX, Anthropic, OpenAI Explained
Brit subs in for Jess as Sam and Dave unpack the AI IPO boom, including SpaceX, Anthropic, and Cerebras, debate whether AI agents can actually replace employees, and react live to the discovery that Slow’s @slow Instagram account was stolen through a Meta AI support exploit. The conversation spans OpenClaw’s enterprise push, recent AI funding rounds, the AI wrapper debate, and Sam’s latest investing thesis that startup pitches should look more like movie trailers than decks, before ending with a pop culture corner into Taylor Swift, AI-generated podcasts for kids, and the future of TBPN after the OpenAI deal. Chapters: 02:53 AI IPO Season: SpaceX, Anthropic & Cerebras 05:29 Narrative Capitalism: Storing Value in Stories 11:34 What the AI IPO Wave Means for Silicon Valley 15:02 Microsoft Build: OpenClaw Goes Enterprise 17:38 Would You Trade Your Employee for an AI Agent? 25:19 LIVE: Slow Ventures’ Instagram Gets Hacked via Meta AI 30:04 Are AI Harnesses Just Fancy PDFs? 31:49 Recent AI Raises & the SaaS Comeback 33:01 The New Pitch: Movie Trailers Over Decks 41:17 AI-Generated Podcasts, Voice Cloning & Consumer AI 42:54 TBPN Update: Post-OpenAI Deal We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/oYmxx8ElGHk Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
May 29 · 50 min
Did Anthropic Use the Pope as a Marketing Stunt? Ft. Amir Efrati
This week on More or Less, Amir Efrati of The Information joins Jessica, Brit, and Dave to unpack the growing intersection of AI, government, and national security, from the rumored stalled executive AI order to why frontier model companies may soon face deeper U.S. oversight and pre-release access demands. The group debates whether slowing AI adoption is really a pricing and UX problem, why AI agents are causing token consumption to explode, and whether most consumers even want an always-on personal agent. They also dive into the geopolitical implications of data centers and open-source software, AI’s impact on entertainment and voice cloning, Hollywood’s anxiety over originality, and the strange new world where even papal writings prompt questions about whether AI had a hand in shaping the message. Chapters: 1:57 — AI Predictions, Whispering to Models & Forecasting the Future 4:37 — AI, National Security & the Trump Administration 6:52 — The Pope’s AI Document, Closed Models & Security Risks 11:56 — AI Regulation, Job Fears & Public Sentiment 15:45 — Is AI Adoption Slowing Down? Pricing, ROI & Enterprise Reality 21:00 — Agents, CIOs & Whether Mainstream Users Will Ever Embrace AI 36:00 — AI Entertainment, Voice Cloning & Hollywood’s Future 41:52 — Going Off-Grid, Book Recommendations & Digital Detoxes 47:00 — Mark Rober, CrunchLabs & the $10,000 Bullseye Story We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/OyC7N42o36s Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
May 22 · 52 min
SpaceX IPO Date Talk + OpenAI Confidential Filing Rumors
This week on More or Less, the crew unpacks IPO speculation around OpenAI and SpaceX, debates whether AI’s economics ultimately favor recurring API spend or owning infrastructure outright, questions if Google’s distribution advantage is enough to win the AI race despite muddled product execution, and wrestles with whether today’s AI valuations are driven by real fundamentals or pure mimetic momentum, alongside broader debates on broken AI user experience, data center concentration risk, agentic search killing SEO, and whether skilled trades like plumbing may ultimately prove more durable than many white-collar jobs in the AI era. Chapters: 01:35 — Brit’s fish disaster story + the fish microbiome economy 04:50 — Dell World, AI PCs, and the tokenomics debate (API spend vs. owning infrastructure) 11:00 — Google I/O recap: agentic search, generative UI, Android glasses, and whether Google is actually back 16:30 — Google’s UX problem: why AI still feels broken for normal users 20:00 — Anthropic vs. Google: focused monolith vs. sprawling empire 22:10 — OpenAI IPO speculation + Anthropic’s mega-round: what do you have to believe at $1T valuations? 29:30 — The “hate invest” thesis: public sentiment, retail risk, and crypto déjà vu 34:20 — Portfolio debate: SpaceX vs. Anthropic vs. OpenAI 35:00 — Sam builds an AI token pricing dashboard live + how companies actually burn $30K/month on tokens 37:00 — What’s next in AI research? Memory, world models, and where infra plays went 42:30 — White House AI model oversight rumors + OpenAI’s Elon legal update 50:10 — AI side projects, kids learning to code, and why plumbers may win the AI era We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspod Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
May 15 · 45 min
Google's AI-First Laptop, Meta's Spy Games, AI Monks in Middle America
The squad is complete again, and Sam arrives with a NeuroPod, cold plunge updates, red light therapy, Oura stats, and enough supplements to start a wellness startup. Then into the week’s biggest tech stories: Google’s new AI device and whether it’s the Chromebook of the AI era or another doomed health-tech experiment, Meta’s keystroke logging controversy, Microsoft’s increasingly awkward OpenAI bet, why OpenAI and Anthropic are now sending engineers directly into enterprises to drive adoption, and what tools like OpenClaw, Py, and Codex actually do. Plus, Anthropic’s eye-watering latest valuation, the clean girl aesthetic discourse, Brian Johnson chaos, and Sam personally buying Jackson Hole ski passes like it’s 1997 Chapters: 00:46 Sam’s NeuroPod, Oura Results & Biohacking Spiral 03:33 Sam vs. Brian Johnson + The Female Biohacker Opportunity 05:09 Oura Ring vs. Whoop + Google’s Wearables Ambition 07:00 Google’s AI-First “Book” Laptop + DeepMind’s Health Push 10:30 Why Local AI Changes Everything (Speed, Cost & Compute) 15:00 Where Is the OpenAI Consumer Device? 16:00 Voice AI, Recording & the Future of Human-Computer Input 20:30 Sam Built His Own Voice-to-AI App 22:31 Meta’s Keystroke Logging: Spy Games or Honeypot? 24:00 Fake AI Jobs + Sam’s “Fin Analytics” Prediction 27:02 OpenAI & Anthropic’s Enterprise Conversion Strategy 29:31 The AI Backlash Is Real (Including UCF’s Commencement Revolt) 31:30 Microsoft’s $100B OpenAI Problem 39:31 Anthropic’s Massive Raise + SF Real Estate Absurdity 41:30 OpenClaw, Py & Codex: What Is a Harness? We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Youtube: https://youtu.be/-O3zyxR-wS0 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
May 8 · 59 min
Why the Met Gala Hates Tech, Elon vs OpenAI Drama, and the Rise of Chinese AI Models
Jess, Britt, and Dave unpack everything from Home Depot runs and closet “re-jiggers” to the internet’s growing backlash against tech wealth, AI, and Silicon Valley culture. The squad debates whether the Met Gala became a symbol of “techlash,” how layoffs and AI anxiety are reshaping public sentiment, and whether AI will actually democratize opportunity or simply concentrate power faster. They also dive into the wild new AI alliances between Anthropic, Elon, and hyperscalers, the latest OpenAI vs Elon trial drama, and why product adoption, not regulation, will decide the future of AI. Plus, Dave shares major OpenClaw updates, real-world AI workflow automations, Meta fork rumors, and the surprisingly relatable use case of turning meeting transcripts into family “receipt printer” briefings. Rounded out with solo movie dates, Taylor Swift theories, Star Wars discourse, and the state of flake culture. Chapters: 00:58 Jess' Home Renovation Project While Sam is Out 03:54 Met Gala: When the Bezoses Became the Story 07:13 Techlash, Wealthlash, and the AI Jobs Backlash 09:36 Trump’s Surprise Pivot Toward AI Regulation 11:51 China, Open-Source Models, and Dave’s $5K Blackwell Desktop 14:13 The Optimistic Case: AI as the Great Wealth Equalizer 17:55 The Pessimistic Case: Tools Democratize, Economics Consolidate 19:43 What Changes Public Sentiment: Better Products, Not Better Arguments 22:42 Layoffs: Pandemic Hangover or AI Substitution? 27:56 Why Almost No One Is Actually Using AI Yet 33:15 Anthropic’s Compute Scramble and the SpaceX/Colossus Deal 36:27 Dario vs. Elon: Two Very Different Operators 39:55 The OpenAI vs. Musk Trial: TMZ or Substance? 45:33 Polymarket, Twitter-Mention Betting, and ChatGPT Comeback 46:42 OpenClaw Update: Foundation, Plugin Architecture, China Forks 50:08 Granola + Claude Code: Replacing Salesforce in 30 Minutes 53:36 Devil Wears Prada, Solo Movie Dates, and the Death of Journalism 55:01 Music & Pop Culture: Ella Langley, Teddy Swims, Toy Story 5 56:36 Why Star Wars Keeps Missing We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/138ne91NkiQ Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
May 1 · 1 hr 1 min
Elon Musk vs OpenAI Trial, Google Cloud Surge, Meta’s Blocked Acquisition, Anthropic Winning
This week on More or Less, the crew kicks off with a very on-brand derail—Stagecoach turning into a wind-blown 90s reunion-turned-half-capacity vibe, segueing into a chaotic trend report of “booty shorts vs. jorts” before Jessica reframes it as “OpenAI or jorts.” From there, it’s into the real storylines: the Musk v. OpenAI trial in Oakland (Altman and Brockman showing up, Musk posturing, and the judge shutting down theatrics), and whether it’s substance or just WWE for tech. The AI race heats up with reports of ChatGPT missing targets while Anthropic pulls ahead, sparking a broader debate on whether frontier models are sliding into commodity territory—Sam argues narrative over fundamentals while Dave pushes on open-source pressure and who actually foots the data center bill. The conversation expands into geopolitics (regulatory capture, China’s open-source momentum, Meta’s blocked agent play) and earnings (Google Cloud riding Anthropic demand), landing on a sneaky insight: AI’s real cost explosion might be storage, not tokens. They close with a rapid-fire culture sweep—Maria Sharapova’s podcast, NYT rankings, Elon’s Mars comp fantasy, Met Gala backlash, and the final punchline: YouTube growth is way more gameable than anyone wants to admit. Chapters: 00:34 — Stagecoach Chaos: Tornado Winds & Half-Crowd Vibes 01:43 — Summer Trend Report: Booty Shorts vs. Jorts 02:56 — “OpenAI or Jorts?” The Hard Pivot 04:15 — Musk vs OpenAI Trial Begins (And It’s Already Messy) 06:40 — Gag Orders, Jury Drama & Musk’s Opening Stunt 09:03 — Is This Lawsuit Just WWE for Tech? 11:46 — Anthropic Passes OpenAI?! The AI Power Shift 13:57 — AI Is Becoming a Commodity (Sam’s Take) 15:24 — The Real Cost of AI: Tokens vs Labor 18:53 — Open Source Is Eating Everything 21:08 — Outcome-Based Pricing: Fix or Race to Zero? 23:16 — “This Is a Bad Business” (But Everyone Uses It) 26:04 — The Only AI Moat: Regulation or Narrative 29:02 — Why Frontier Models Still Matter 32:04 — China, Open Source & AI Geopolitics 35:06 — Meta’s Blocked AI Deal (Spy Game Energy) 38:07 — Google Wins the AI Race (For Now) 41:23 — The $5B Opportunity Nobody’s Talking About 43:34 — The Real AI Trade: Storage > Tokens 46:58 — Investing Is Dead, Long Live Narrative We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/EkpYTFmS4Ak Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

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