Amazon, Google, ChatGPT: When Do Products Start Gaming Their Users?

Bing Gordon co-founded Electronic Arts, spent 18 years at Kleiner Perkins, sat on Amazon's board for 15 and is credited by John Doerr and Jeff Wilke with the idea for Prime. He also sat on Zynga's board, which is why it lands when he says players felt relief when they quit Farmville while retention and revenue were still climbing. So where's the line between good game design and gaming your users? Bing's answer takes in TikTok doom scrolling, WhatsApp as the rare product nobody complains about overusing, the sponsored products Amazon still shows Prime members, and ChatGPT ending every answer with one more question. Then Dave asks what the whole agent era keeps circling: what gets worse if your AI wins for you? Friction is what makes pearls, says Bing, and the next frictions will come from edge conditions nobody tested. Plus the wow/WTF scale he used to judge EA's Hall of Fame games, and the bet-your-job letter he kept in a drawer. Everybody Wins by Bing Gordon and Chloe Gordon: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/797436/everybody-wins-by-bing-gordon-and-chloe-gordon/ Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:02 No Lessins This Week: Brit and Dave Bring In Bing Gordon 02:42 Amazon's Board, Prime, and 18 Years at Kleiner Perkins 05:03 Disneyland Inside the Computer 06:51 The Classroom Question That Led to Electronic Arts 09:44 Raising $2M in 1982, Then Atari Collapsed 10:56 Vision, and Why People Think You're Stupid 11:37 Bathroom OKRs and Why Goals Beat Perfection 13:13 Word of Mouth, and Why Coin-Operated Hires Leave 14:44 "Can a Computer Make You Cry?" and Hiring on Mission 16:53 Why Games Retain: Where Everybody Knows Your Name 17:34 Which Social Network Did It Best? 18:36 LinkedIn Endorsements and Getting People to Come Back 20:19 Farmville: Players Felt Relief When They Quit 21:18 Growth Hacking Is Human Growth Hormone 23:04 Amazon, TikTok, ChatGPT: Who's Gaming Their Users Today? 24:21 What Gets Worse If Your AI Agent Wins for You? 25:03 Friction Is What Makes Pearls 26:30 Hugging Face, Cruise, and the Edge Conditions Nobody Tests 29:04 Writing Everybody Wins With His Daughter Chloe 32:19 The Visionary and the Operator 33:20 The Wow/WTF Scale, and How to Manufacture a Wow 36:08 Wow Moments in Games, Facebook, Instagram and Amazon 38:42 Creating Wow Moments as a Parent 41:28 The Bet Your Job Moment 42:23 You Only Got Fired for Blaming Someone Else 43:19 Good Risk vs Bad Risk 43:53 Invest and Express: Twitch, Chat, and Kids' Art on the Wall 45:59 Dave's Favorite Bing-ism: The Airplane Aisle Test 47:30 The Best Retention Hack Ever Made Is a Wedding Ring 48:01 Session Economics, Novelty, and Leveling Up 51:51 How to Gamify a Board Meeting 54:03 Why a Founder Who Loses the Board Twice Gets Replaced 55:23 Family Board Meetings and the Vice President of Fun 56:17 Lightning Round: Books, Heroes, Best Investment 58:41 Bing's P(doom): Boomers Are Gonna Doom 59:36 The Three Things That Make a Good Day 1:01:59 Dave's iPhone Duo Verdict We're also on: X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckC Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Connect with our guest: Bing Gordon, author of Everybody Wins (with Chloe Gordon), available everywhere including Amazon. Bing narrated the audiobook. X: https://x.com/bingfish Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.