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What the REF?!

HiddenREF

Welcome What the REF - Our attempt at demystifying everyone's favourite national research assessment exercise!

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S1 · E28
Wednesday · 46 min
What the REF: GONE ROGUE!
Simon's away, so James and Gemma are going rogue. This week: two autumn predictions land, a £1bn devolution push and a new research data policy. Then the British Academy's report on dual support, which quietly admits UK research is funded by a tripartite system. Could QR money ever be audited after allocation? Next, the Meta Science Unit's AI-driven evaluation plans: do we really need more indicators, and would you rather be assessed by a bot or your peers? In REF folklore, do panels judge NTOs by proxies? Plus, a trail for our mid-November live reaction to the REF guidance. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie, and James Baker. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E27
October 14 · 38 min
What the REF is Michael reading?!
The REF 2029 guidance finally has a date... Sort of. James, Ola and Michael unpack what that means, then dig into UKRI’s reported plans to phase out QR funding for research culture and policy engagement, and Prof. Brian Cox’s argument that you can’t engineer growth by directing research. They explore CoARA’s guidance on recognising diverse research outputs, share lessons from non-traditional output workshops in Aberdeen and Loughborough, and bust some REF folklore about those mysterious 300-word statements. Plus: a book on Vatican II, a TV show about space policy, and a plea for clarity. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Ola Thomson and Michael Donnay. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E26
September 30 · 42 min
What the REF are we expecting this Autumn?!
REF rules are (probably) coming this autumn — but what else is heading the sector's way? James, Gemma and Simon (plus one uninvited chicken) map out the season ahead: the budget, UKRI funding fallout, open data policy, devolution, and the very real possibility a Russell Group university could collapse. They dig into the Hidden REF competition's record-breaking 222 entries, report back from an international research-evaluation conference in Antwerp, and tackle the sector's favourite rumour: is the REF finally getting cancelled? (Spoiler: probably not.) Sharp, funny, and essential listening for anyone navigating UK research policy. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker, and Simon Hettrick. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E25
August 25 · 46 min
What the REF do you get out of submitting to the Hidden REF Competition?!
The Hidden REF competition is back! Bigger, busier and more diverse than ever. But why should you enter? In this episode, the What the REF team hears from three previous winners about what they gained from taking part. Jenni Adams explains how winning a Hidden Role award recognised work that often goes unseen. Jamie Davies reveals how a competition win helped his team secure funding for a vital global database. And Professor Lynne Bianchi shares how entering helped her team reflect on, evidence and articulate their impact. Plus: why submitting might be valuable even if you do not win. Ready to enter? Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Michael Donney, Lyndsey Ballantyne, and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E24
July 22 · 1 hr 7 min
What the REF is it like to start the REF?!
How do you do your first REF when there is no instruction manual? In this episode of What the REF, we meet Arts University Plymouth as they prepare for their very first REF submission. Alexandra Murphy and Ian Hutchinson share the excitement, confusion and opportunities of building a REF culture from scratch at a specialist arts university. We explore practice-based research, "not-traditionally submitted outputs", creative portfolios and the relationship between art and research. Plus, we discuss the demise of Research Professional, REF and research integrity, and why REF 2029 might be a live experiment for the future of research assessment. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Ola Thomson and Simon Hettrick. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E23
June 24 · 35 min
What the REF did we learn at ARMA?!
Episode 23 of What the REF looks back at the recent ARMA Conference and the team’s take on various sessions there on the Research Excellence Framework. Gemma, Ola, and James discuss uncertainty around REF 2029, proposals to broaden what counts as research outputs, and gaps between policy language and what actually happens in institutions. They also dig into some of the bigger critiques of the REF — from Stefan Collini’s call to scrap it altogether, to counter-arguments that stress the need for accountability and a fair way of distributing research funding. Along the way, they share reflections from ARMA workshops, swap insights from creativity-focused university events, and dive into some REF folklore. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick – a self-confessed REF junkie – Ola Thomson, and James Baker.Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E22
June 10 · 43 min
What the REF: In conversation with Steven Hill
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E21
May 26 · 20 min
What the REF?! It's the 2026 Hidden REF Competition!
In this special episode of What the REF, the team officially launches the 2026 Hidden REF Competition and explores how it has evolved from a one-off initiative into a wider movement for research culture change. New co-host Michael Donnelly joins Lyndsey and Simon to discuss why the competition exists, who it supports, and how it helps spotlight overlooked research roles and outputs. They unpack this year’s REF-aligned submission process, share success stories from past entrants, and reflect on the morale boost, recognition and institutional change the competition has already inspired across the sector. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, Lyndsey Ballantyne and Michael Donnay, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E20
May 13 · 30 min
What the REF can be measured?
This episode of What the REF explores some of the biggest tensions shaping REF and the wider research sector. Gemma, Simon and Lyndsey discuss a criticism of the measurement of research culture, arguing that accountability and lived experience matter more than simplistic metrics. They then examine growing enthusiasm for AI in research assessment, questioning whether evaluation can ever be automated without losing human judgement, trust and responsibility. The conversation also unpacks the uncertainty surrounding non-traditional outputs in REF submissions, from software and databases to exhibitions and performances, highlighting confusion around portfolios, supplementary evidence and what information panels actually need to make fair assessments. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E19
May 6 · 58 min
What the REF do REF institutional leads do?!
Inside the REF machine: this episode of What the Ref lifts the lid on life as an institutional lead. Featuring Gemma Fitzsimmons and Julie Northam, we explore the realities of coordinating submissions, navigating ambiguous guidance, and building confidence across entire universities. From data security concerns to the challenge of representing diverse research outputs, the conversation blends practical insight with sector-wide reflection. Expect candid discussion on pressure, collaboration, and the surprisingly supportive REF community. If you have ever wondered how the REF really works behind the scenes – or how decisions get made – this episode offers a clear, human perspective on a complex national exercise. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E18
April 10 · 1 hr
What the REF is happening with books?!
This week on What the Ref, the team heads to Plymouth for a lively workshop on non-traditional outputs before diving into a fascinating interview with Gareth Cole on the future of open access books. From monographs to “long-form” research, they unpack the challenges of defining openness, funding models beyond book processing charges, and the tension between flexibility and REF policy. Is the system sidelining books—and entire disciplines? Plus, new REF folklore debunked: can novels and trade books really be submitted? A sharp, thought-provoking episode on where research publishing is heading next. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E17
March 18 · 34 min
What the REF is work/life balance?!
Dive into the latest episode of What the REF?, where the team unpacks shifting UK research funding, REF 2029 updates, and what an interim director could mean for the sector. From curiosity-driven research and “hidden roles” to the challenges of assessing non-traditional outputs, this episode explores how academia is evolving in real time. The conversation also tackles bigger cultural questions: joy in research, slow scholarship, and whether academia should just be ‘a job’. Plus, insights from NTO workshops, early career concerns, and the future of research assessment—practical, honest, and thought-provoking throughout. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Simon Hettrick, Ola Thomson and James Baker. Our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E16
March 5 · 34 min
What the REF is the Hidden REF Competition?!
Discover the story behind the Hidden REF Competition in this special episode of What the REF. James and Lindsay explain how the initiative celebrates the vital but often overlooked contributions that keep research running—from software and datasets to infrastructure, engagement, and the people behind the scenes. Learn how the competition works, who is involved, and why the research community’s submissions matter. With volunteer panels, community-driven categories, and real stories of recognition and impact, the Hidden REF shines a spotlight on the hidden roles and outputs that traditional research assessment often misses. Plus, hear what is new for the 2026 competition and how you can get involved. Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/ Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E15
February 18 · 39 min
What the REF do we do without Rebecca?!
Research culture, open access battles, and major REF leadership news — this episode of What the REF?! unpacks the forces reshaping UK academia. The team reflects on the resignation of REF 2029 director Rebecca Fairbairn, debates universities walking away from big publishing deals, and explores how journal prestige still drives pressure and toxic incentives in some disciplines. They also let producer Ben on camera for once to introduce the new Hidden REF expert groups, which are a way of getting YOU involved in shaping the assessment criteria for not-traditionally submitted research outputs. Finally, they mark International Women and Girls in Science Day. Expect candid discussion on publishing power, research assessment, and how culture change in universities might actually happen. Interested in joining an expert group? You can sign up here: https://hidden-ref.org/expert-groups/ Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E14
February 4 · 21 min
What the REF happened on our community call?!
This episode of What the Ref mixes REF chat with community energy as James returns, Researchfish’s impending closure sparks lively debate, and the team reflects on what meaningful research culture could look like next. Gemma, James and Lindsay unpack why Researchfish mattered, why few will mourn it, and what might replace it. The spotlight then turns to Hidden REF’s first-ever community call, which attracted over 60 participants keen to share experiences of non-traditional outputs, recognition and REF realities. With insights, humour and optimism, the episode celebrates collaboration, learning across institutions, and building a more supportive REF community. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - James Baker and Lyndsey Ballantyne, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E13
January 21 · 37 min
What the REF is needed to assess research outputs fairly?!
A new year of ‘REF-iness’ kicks off as the What the REF team unpack the fallout from December’s REF changes and look ahead to what 2026 holds. With the dust now settling, the conversation turns from reaction to reckoning: what do the new rules actually mean in practice, and who stands to gain or lose? The team highlight two must-read reflections on the reforms, including analysis of the removal of ‘culture’ from the former PCE and the disproportionate impact this may have on early career researchers, who often rely on less easily measurable contributions. While opinions differ on whether the shift from ‘culture’ to ‘strategy’ is substantive or merely semantic, there is consensus on one thing: the rules are set, and it is time to get on with it. Much of the episode focuses on findings from the Hidden REF’s recent ‘think-aloud’ experiment, where evaluators assessed non-traditionally submitted outputs (NTOs) in real time. Drawing on 68 detailed observations across outputs ranging from software and databases to music composition, the team explore how assessors actually operationalise significance, originality, and rigour when familiar academic heuristics fall away. The results expose recurring challenges: inconsistent 300-word descriptions, reliance on inappropriate proxies from traditional publishing, and the subtle creep of aesthetics and personal taste into judgement. The discussion moves from diagnosis to action. The team outline plans to translate these findings into practical assessment guidelines, to be tested and refined through workshops and the next Hidden REF competition. With submissions opening in March and an awards ceremony planned for November, the competition is positioned as both a low-risk testing ground and a rare source of joy in an otherwise anxiety-ridden REF cycle. The episode closes with a shared ambition: to shift non-traditional outputs from the margins to the mainstream through evidence, dialogue, and sustained collective effort. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E12
Dec 23, 2025 · 45 min
What the REF do HR have to do with the REF?!
This week on What the REF?!, Ola and James start to unpack the long-awaited REF announcement from December, sharing first reactions and a palpable sense of relief across the sector. While a full deep dive is parked until the new year, the episode offers an initial digest of what has landed, why certainty matters, and which debates are already bubbling up around outputs, narratives and research culture. The real highlight, though, is a fascinating interview with Sophie Crouchman from Universities Human Resources (UHR), conducted by Simon. Sophie lifts the lid on the often unseen role of HR in REF preparation and delivery, from staff data and equality impact assessments to promotion criteria, reward structures and institutional culture. She makes a compelling case that, despite the technical language and frameworks, REF is ultimately about people, and HR colleagues are central to making it work. The conversation explores workload, recognition, collaboration across professional services, and how HR teams support universities through constant policy change and uncertainty. It is a warm, insightful reminder that REF is a collective effort, powered by many roles that rarely get the spotlight. A cheerful, thought-provoking episode that celebrates the hidden work behind the headlines and sets the scene nicely for REF conversations in the year ahead. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Dec 11, 2025 · 11 min
Breaking News! The Pause is Over! What the REF is happening now?!
Simon and Ola are live at the 2025 Research & Innovation Conference, hearing Professor Dame Jessica Corner outline how REF2029 is moving forward - and we’ve got immediate reactions. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E11
Dec 8, 2025 · 34 min
What the REF do we want for Christmas?!
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
S1 · E10
Nov 26, 2025 · 45 min
What the REF do people want to know?!
In this lively episode of What the Ref, Gemma, James and Simon guide listeners through the endlessly surprising world of the Research Excellence Framework. Proceedings begin with Simon recounting the final NTO workshop of the year, held at the University of Exeter, which has become the national home of hyper-efficient scrutiny. The team is now preparing an expanded workshop programme for next year. From there, the conversation takes a dramatic turn. Mere minutes before recording, news dropped that the REF pause will end on 10 December, accompanied by major presentations from Dame Jessica Corner and the REF team. Cue excitement, mild panic, and the realisation that the next few weeks may involve emergency podcast episodes. Simon and Ola will be attending the Universities UK conference in person, and providing near-live commentary, possibly including gasps or cheers. The trio reflect on the sector’s peculiar ‘pause that was not a pause’. Although REF planning was officially frozen, universities have continued diligently preparing outputs, impacts and PCE statements. Everyone agrees that many colleagues deserve medals, naps or both. Listeners’ questions from the Hidden REF Festival prompt discussions about non-traditional outputs, the effort required to submit them, and the broader ambitions of the 5% manifesto. The team emphasises that the goal is not to create NTOs for the sake of it, but to recognise existing work fairly and transparently. The episode closes with an exploration of PCE, its long-overdue role in improving research culture, and a collective hope that, with REF 2029, meaningful change may finally be on the way. If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org. Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas. Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org 'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England. Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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