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The Systemic Way

Sezer and Julie

The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities.

Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway

Music by Rena Paid

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23 episodes
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Avg 1 hr 18 min
English

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S11 · E108
Wednesday · 1 hr 2 min
The Story Lived and Told: Abbie VanMeter on her Journey to CMM
What happens when we stop asking, “Who is right?” and start asking, “What are we making here?” In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Abbie VanMeter from the CMM Institute and host of the wonderful podcast Stories Lived and Stories Told for a wide-ranging and deeply engaging conversation about Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM). The conversation explores Abbie's personal and professional journey into Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM), how she has come to embody the approach, and what CMM can offer systemic psychotherapy and everyday relationships. Abbie’s journey into CMM is an unexpected one. What began with discovering CMM during the pandemic led to her creating Stories Lived and Stories Told, a podcast now in its fifth season, and to a much deeper exploration of how we create meaning with one another. We talk about what CMM looks like beyond the theory. How does it change the way we listen, communicate and understand relationships? What happens when we begin to notice the meanings we are creating together in the moment? The conversation takes us into some big questions about curiosity, uncertainty, power and expertise. We explore what it means for therapists to hold professional knowledge while also recognising the knowledge and expertise of the people they work with. Abbie talks about curiosity as a “superpower” and the importance of “actually not knowing”. We consider what it means to meet people where they are, rather than assuming we need to bring them somewhere else. We also explore the relationship between lived, told and untold stories. What might become possible when we recognise that there are stories that have not yet been heard, understood or given space? Along the way, we talk about embodiment, improv, “yes and”, the LUUT Model, the complexity of CMM and the experience of learning a theory that becomes increasingly difficult to “unsee”. This is not simply a conversation about learning CMM. It is a conversation about how we live it. How we communicate. How we make meaning. How we relate to one another. And ultimately, what kind of social worlds we are creating together. This is Part One of a two-part conversation. In Part Two, Abbie turns the microphone on Julie and Sezer to explore their own journeys into systemic psychotherapy and the story behind The Systemic Way. Link to Part two https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2466190&post_id=215273874&utm_source=podcast-email&play_audio=true&r=3e6jkh&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMDUyMTg0NDksInBvc3RfaWQiOjIxNTI3Mzg3NCwiaWF0IjoxNzg5NTMxMzMxLCJleHAiOjE3OTIxMjMzMzEsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNDY2MTkwIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.l-mgXbg2Jf_S8uj4tXnySHyXnjkFoHVIiGgpGokdzTQ&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=play_card#play
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S10 · E107
August 28 · 1 hr 11 min
Neo-Liberalism, Mental Health and Resistance Within The Systems We Live In: In conversation with Mark Phillips
What happens when the systems designed to help us start shaping, limiting or even defining the problems we are trying to solve? In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Mark Phillips, a highly experienced systemic psychotherapist, mental health nurse and strategic leader who has worked across NHS, local authority and youth justice services for more than two decades. Mark is currently Strategic Health Lead for Youth Justice Services and Head of Family Therapy at Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust, and also works as a consultant systemic psychotherapist and supervisor. He qualified as a systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in 2005. Together, we explore neoliberalism and its impact on systemic practice, mental health and public services. We talk about the growing emphasis on individual responsibility, productivity, measurement and outcomes, and what can be lost when complex relational and social difficulties are reduced to individual problems. Mark shares reflections from his work in youth justice, CAMHS and local authority services, including the tensions between behavioural interventions and more contextual, relational approaches. We explore power, privilege, oppression, organisational culture, payment-by-results, professional identity and the politics of therapy. We also consider what it means for systemic practitioners to become agents of resistance and change: finding allies, learning to speak the language of organisations, challenging taken-for-granted assumptions and creating spaces for alternative ways of working. Ultimately, this is a conversation about how we understand the systems we work within—and what possibilities emerge when we become willing to question them. Chapters: 00:00 – Neoliberalism, Mental Health & Resistance Within The Systems We Live In 03:32 – Meet Mark Phillips 05:52 – An Accidental Journey into Systemic Psychotherapy 08:02 – Privilege, Marginalisation & Identity 20:31 – When Therapy Becomes Part of an Oppressive System 23:42 – Positivism, Relativism & Understanding People in Context 28:18 – What Is Neoliberalism? 34:57 – The Paradox of Payment by Results 36:35 – From Behavioural to Relational Practice 40:48 – Systemic Practice as Activism 42:00 – “Be With Us”: Co-Construction & Collaboration 43:51 – Learning to Speak the Language of the System 48:18 – Finding Allies Within the System 50:12 – Individual Responsibility & Systemic Inequality 51:54 – Neoliberalism & the Productivity Machine 58:19 – Systemic Practice as Resistance 1:00:49 – Taking Risks & Speaking Truth to Power 1:05:12 – Finding Pockets of Possibility 1:09:33 – Moving Beyond “This Is How We Do Things” 1:10:53 – Putting Systemic Theory Into Action
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S10 · E106
August 9 · 1 hr 4 min
Team Of Life - The Collective Power of Narrative Therapy: With Vicky Eames and Mariangels Ferrer-Duch
Who are the people, past and present, who have helped you become who you are? In this episode of The Systemic Way, we explore Team of Life, a creative narrative practice developed from the Tree of Life approach. We speak with Mariangels Ferrer-Duch and Vicky Eames from Riverbank Psychology as we discuss how to help people reconnect with stories of strength, courage and belonging. This is a reflective conversation about narrative practice, relational identity and the power of remembering that no one's story is written alone. Using the metaphor of a sporting team, Team of Life invites us to think about the people, relationships, communities, values, skills and experiences that have helped shape who we are and supported us through difficult times. Who are the people who have been in your corner? Who has passed you the ball when you needed it? Who helped you find your way when you were unsure where to go? And whose team are you a member of? Together, we explore how Team of Life can create opportunities to recognise skills, celebrate relationships and reconnect people with stories of strength, contribution and belonging that can easily become overshadowed by problems. From a systemic and narrative perspective, the episode asks what becomes possible when we move away from seeing resilience as an individual quality and instead locate it within relationships, histories, communities and collective experience. Because none of us gets through life entirely on our own. Sometimes, it takes a team. Who would be on your Team of Life? Dr Vicky Eames is a consultant clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience in adult and child and adolescent mental health. She offers psychological therapy in Cornwall and online with specialisms in narrative therapy, attachment and trauma focused therapy, EMDR as well as therapeutic work with neurodivergent people. Mariangels Ferrer-Duch is a clinical psychologist and systemic family therapist with over 30 years experience. She also holds a masters in narrative therapy and community work. Mariangels offers online supervision, consultation and training, helping practitioners develop their skills in narrative therapy,
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S10 · E105
July 27 · 1 hr 26 min
Five Dimensions of Change: Relational-Mindfulness, Mantra and Meaning - A Buddhist-Systemic Approach with Kunsang Yang Yang
Join us for a thought-provoking episode as we sit down with Kunsang Yang Yang , a pioneering voice in the integration of Buddhist philosophy and systemic family therapy. Drawing from years of personal spiritual practice, professional experience, and the teachings of his root guru, H.H. Yisie Vorle (as featured in the book Path Beyond Samsara), Yang Yang explores how Buddhist concepts like mindfulness, non-self, and wholesome aspirations can transform the way we understand and foster change within families and communities. Discover how Buddhist ideas—such as the five aggregates, relational mindfulness, and the power of mantra recitation—can broaden the systemic lens, offering new pathways for healing and connection. We’ll delve into practical techniques, including the innovative narrative-mantra group model, and hear insights from clinicians who have participated in these integrative practices. Whether you’re a therapist, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about the intersection of Eastern wisdom and modern psychology, this episode offers fresh perspectives and actionable ideas for cultivating compassion, resilience, and meaningful change. Tune in to explore the rich dialogue between Buddhism and systemic therapy, and learn how ancient wisdom is shaping the future of mental health and relational wellbeing. As a qualified Singaporean Systemic Family Psychotherapist, Counsellor and Social Worker for over 20 years, Yang Yang has worked with children, adolescents, individual adults, couples and families in the UK and Singapore. He lived in London for 13 years before relocating back to Singapore, where he continues to offer systemic therapy as a Buddhist monk. He just completed his PhD in Buddhist studies at Thailand during this interview.
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S10 · E104
July 11 · 1 hr 27 min
From Bateson and Blake to Hugh Palmer: Fourfold Vision and the Art of Seeing Systemically
What does it mean to truly see in therapy? Not just to recognise a problem or follow a model, but to sense the subtle movements of relationship — the flicker of meaning between people, the quiet shifts that change the course of a conversation. In this episode, Dr. Hugh Palmer, systemic family psychotherapist, trainer and writer, invites us into the art of expanded vision. Drawing on Gregory Bateson, William Blake, and decades of systemic practice, Hugh explores Fourfold Vision as a way of perceiving that blends evidence, theory, intuition and imagination into something alive, relational and deeply human. Together, we wander through the landscapes of therapy where a clinician becomes scientist, theorist, humanist and artist all at once — noticing patterns, welcoming uncertainty, and allowing themselves to be changed by the families they meet. Hugh shows how widening our vision can open new possibilities for connection, creativity and transformation. For therapists, supervisors, trainees, and anyone fascinated by how people make meaning together, this conversation offers a gentle but powerful invitation: to see more, feel more, and meet the world with a fuller, more responsive imagination.
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S10 · E103
June 7 · 1 hr 18 min
Families at the Heart of Education: The Pears Family School How systemic practice in specialist provision creates lasting change: With Laura Lower and Maya Bell Kohli
In this episode, we shine a spotlight on the Pears Family School, a pioneering Alternative Provision school in the UK that is redefining how we support children with complex emotional, behavioral, and mental health needs. Facing a national crisis in child mental health and a lack of joined-up services, the Pears Family School bridges the gap between education and mental health through a unique, systemic, and family-focused approach. We are joined by Laura Lower and Maya Bell Kohli as we discover how the school’s founders, both experienced teachers and systemic family therapists, created a model that integrates therapeutic and educational practices. We’ll explore the origins of their innovative multi-family classroom, the five bridging themes that guide every aspect of school life—Active Warmth, Respectful Curiosity, Hopeful Motivation, Supportive Challenge, and Engendered Trust—and the theoretical foundations that underpin their work, from Attachment Theory to Mentalization. Hear how all staff, not just therapists, are trained in mental health principles, enabling them to make informed interventions throughout the school day. Learn about the school’s commitment to involving parents and carers in every step, from classroom activities to group discussions, building trust and solidarity among families who have often felt excluded or blamed. Maya and Laura share real stories of transformation, discuss the challenges of working with children at risk of exclusion, and examine how the Pears Family School helps students recover, regain confidence, and transition successfully back to mainstream education. Whether you’re an educator, mental health professional, or advocate for vulnerable children, this episode offers practical insights and inspiration for anyone interested in systemic change and holistic support for families. Laura is a family and systemic psychotherapist and supervisor with extensive experience in therapeutic education and safeguarding. For the past six years, she has been a senior leader at The Pears Family School, a specialist therapeutic alternative provision, where she works as Head of Therapy and Safeguarding Lead. Before joining the school, Laura worked in CAMHS as a Senior Mental Health Practitioner and spent seven years as a senior leader within a large SEMH Academy Trust. Prior to returning to the UK, she spent six years in Australia as a senior social worker and specialist forensic child interviewer. Across every setting, Laura has championed the belief that schools can be transformative spaces for children and families. She is passionate about systemic approaches and their power to create meaningful, sustainable change. Maya is a trainee family and systemic psychotherapist who has worked at Pears Family School since 2018, firstly as a Class Teacher and now as an Assistant Headteacher and SENCO. Her interest in systemic ideas has been growing steadily through her work with families in education and charity contexts over the last 15 years. At Pears Family School her favourite part of her role is working alongside families so that they are positioned more powerfully within school or societal systems that often contribute to how they might feel they are failing or powerless.
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S10 · E102
May 17 · 1 hr 19 min
Reflexive Inquiry and Meaning-Making in Organisations: In conversation with Christine Oliver
In this episode, we are joined by pioneering systemic psychotherapist, organisational consultant, and author Christine Oliver for a rich conversation exploring systemic approaches to organisational life, leadership, and change. Drawing from over 30 years of experience across the NHS, charities, international organisations, faith communities, and private consultancy, Christine reflects on how systemic and social constructionist ideas can help organisations navigate complexity, conflict, hierarchy, and uncertainty. Together, we explore reflexive inquiry, relational leadership, organisational culture, moral story-making, appreciative inquiry, and the power of conversation in shaping teams and systems. Christine shares insights from her influential work in consultancy and psychotherapy, including how organisations can create spaces where people think together with greater clarity, accountability, and respect. We also discuss power and positionality in organisations, the challenges of leadership, and how systemic practitioners can work collaboratively in ways that move beyond expert-driven models of change. This episode will be valuable for therapists, leaders, consultants, coaches, educators, and anyone interested in applying systemic thinking beyond the therapy room. Christine brings warmth, wisdom, and decades of experience to this thoughtful and deeply practical conversation. http://www.christineoliver.net/
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S10 · E101
April 26 · 1 hr 3 min
From Modalities to Relational Meaning: A Systemic Turn in Integrative Counselling - With Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz.
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we speak with Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz about their book A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (2024) and the growing need to bring relational thinking into everyday therapeutic practice. Together, we explore how familiar counselling models such as person-centred, psychodynamic, CBT, Gestalt, and action-based approaches can be reworked through systemic ideas of context, relationships, patterns, and meaning. Rather than locating distress solely within the individual, Rick and Lisa invite us to consider how problems are shaped and sustained through interaction, culture, family histories, and wider social systems. We discuss what this means for therapists working one-to-one, how counsellors can develop systemic thinking without abandoning their core model, and why integration needs more than simply combining techniques. This is a rich conversation about practice, ethics, creativity, and the future of counselling. Essential listening for counsellors, psychotherapists, family therapists, trainees, supervisors, and anyone interested in moving beyond individualised understandings of human struggle. A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (Amazon) https://amzn.eu/d/02FDlcHh
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S10 · E100
March 27 · 1 hr 32 min
Inside EFTA-RELATES 2025: Challenging Indifference, Creating Connection, Shaping the Future of the Systemic Field
Celebrating our 100th episode of The Systemic Way Podcast. We took The Systemic Way to @EFTA-RELATES 2025 Congress in Lyon and stepped into a space shaped by change, tension, and possibility. Across four days, we spoke with therapists, researchers, and practitioners working at the edges of systemic practice. You hear their reflections, their challenges, and the moments that stayed with them. From conversations on migration, trauma, and social justice, to explorations of family therapy, organisational work, and community resilience, this episode captures what it felt like to be in the room. This congress brought together voices from across the European Family Therapy Association and Red Europea y Latinoamericana de Escuelas Sistémicas. It created dialogue across difference. It held both innovation and uncertainty. It asked what systemic practice can offer in a world shaped by rapid scientific change and ongoing violence. In this episode, you hear how people are responding. How they are working with complexity. How they are holding onto hope. Real conversations. Lived experiences. Systemic thinking in action. A massive thank you to Umberta Telfener, Parveen Kaur, Yvonne Rose, Ana Draper (she/her), Poppy Thorn, @Karen Franco; Matej Vajda, Carol Jolliffe, Jennifer McKinney, Francesca Balestra<
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S10 · E99
March 20 · 1 hr 24 min
Felt Sense Polyvagal Dialogue in Family Therapy: With Jan Winhall
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we sit down with renowned psychotherapist, author, and educator Jan Winhall to explore the transformative power of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM). With over four decades of clinical experience, Jan invites us into a radically compassionate, body‑based understanding of trauma, addiction, and healing. Together, we unpack how the body’s survival responses are not signs of pathology but intelligent adaptations—messages that deserve curiosity rather than shame. Jan shares the origins of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model, how it integrates polyvagal theory with focusing-oriented therapy, and why shifting from “What’s wrong with you?” to “What happened in you?” can reshape therapeutic practice. We also dive into the practical: embodied exercises, the role of safety and co-regulation, and how therapists can create spaces where clients reconnect with their felt sense and reclaim agency. Whether you’re a clinician, educator, or simply someone interested in the intersection of neuroscience and compassion, this conversation offers a grounded, hopeful reframe of what it means to heal. A rich, generous dialogue with one of the leading voices in embodied trauma work—this is an episode you won’t want to miss. Jan Winhall, M.S.W., R.S.W., F.O.T., is a psychotherapist, author, and educator with more than 40 years of experience working at the intersection of trauma, addiction, and embodied healing. She is the developer of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM), an innovative framework that integrates polyvagal theory with focusing‑oriented therapy to offer a compassionate, non‑pathologizing understanding of human suffering and resilience. Jan is an Adjunct Lecturer at the University of Toronto, an Educational Partner with the Polyvagal Institute, and the Founder and Director of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Institute, where she trains practitioners around the world. Her influential book, Treating Trauma and Addiction with the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model, has become a touchstone for clinicians seeking embodied, relational approaches to healing. Across her teaching, writing, and clinical work, Jan invites us to listen to the body’s wisdom, honour survival responses as adaptive, and create therapeutic spaces rooted in safety, curiosity, and connection. She is widely recognised for bridging neuroscience with systemic, relational practice in ways that are accessible, hopeful, and deeply human.
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S10 · E98
February 4 · 1 hr 23 min
Adolescence: Toxic Masculinity, Online Radicalisation, and Systemic Responsibility. Systemic Lens ep. 4.
In this episode, we’re turning our attention to the UK drama Adolescence — a series that begins with a single, shocking event but quickly reveals a much wider web of responsibility. Rather than focusing solely on the actions of one young person, the drama draws us into the interconnected systems surrounding him: family, school, peer culture, mental health services, and the criminal justice system. Using a systemic psychotherapy lens, we’ll explore how meaning, behaviour, and risk are produced within relationships — and how patterns of communication, power, silence, and inaction shape what unfolds. We’ll look at not just what happens on screen, but what fails to happen: where systems don’t speak to each other, where responsibility is displaced, and where intervention comes too late. Adolescence invites us to move away from simple narratives of blame and instead ask more complex questions about how distress is held — or missed — across the wider system. We are joined by the regular Systemic Lens Team of Becky Midlane, Anokh Goodman, Danilen Nursigadoo, Nafeesa Nizami (Naz).
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S10 · E97
January 16 · 46 min
Once Upon A Time In Grandmotherland: Myths, Meanings and Cultural Discourses with Dr Judith Edwards
In Grandmotherland, Dr Judith Edwards offers an exploration of Grandmotherhood as an intergenerational, relational, and socially constructed position. Drawing on myth, fairy tales, family narratives, and contemporary lived experience, she examines how dominant cultural discourses shape expectations of grandmothers and organise family roles, boundaries, and power across generations. Judith attends to patterns of transmission, alliance, exclusion, and care, situating Grandmotherhood within wider socio-economic and cultural contexts—including the increasing reliance on grandmothers for childcare. Grandmotherland invites systemic practitioners and scholars to rethink grannyhood not as a fixed role, but as a dynamic position shaped by relationships, histories, and social structures. Judith Edwards is a child and adolescent psychotherapist who has worked for over thirty years at the Tavistock Clinic in London. Love the Wild Swan: The Selected Works of Judith Edwards was published by Routledge in their World Library of Mental Health series, and her edited book, Psychoanalysis and Other Matters: Where Are We Now? was also published by Routledge. From 1996 to 2000, she was joint editor of the Journal of Child Psychotherapy. Apart from her clinical experience, one of her principal interests is in the links between psychoanalysis, culture, and the arts, as well as making psychoanalytic ideas accessible to a wider audience. She has an international academic publishing record and in 2010 was awarded the Jan Lee memorial prize for the best paper linking psychoanalysis and the arts during that year: ‘Teaching & Learning about Psychoanalysis: Film as a teaching tool’.
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S10 · E96
Dec 21, 2025 · 1 hr 20 min
On Age-in-Therapy: In Conversation with Carole Hunt, Daniel Blake and Polly Kaiser of the DWP Age Group
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we talk about age in the room—listening for it not as decline, but as presence, memory, and becoming. Drawing inspiration from Maya Angelou’s On Aging, where she writes of being “old as the hills, and far from done,” we explore lifecycle transitions, working with older people, and how a therapist’s age is read, misread, and positioned in the therapeutic relationship. We reflect on age as a cultural and systemic story: how wisdom, power, invisibility, authority, and expectation are shaped across generations and communities. This is a conversation about the assumptions we inherit, the vitality that persists, and what age—spoken and unspoken—brings into systemic practice.
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S10 · E95
Nov 30, 2025 · 1 hr 19 min
Why Dialogue Cures: In Conversation with Dr Jaako Seikkula
In this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest bookWhy Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power of Open Dialogue, a radically humanistic approach to mental health care developed in Western Lapland. This episode unpacks why dialogic practice—where clinicians, clients, families, and networks meet in shared conversation—can lead to recoveries unimaginable in conventional psychiatry. Together we discuss the history, development and discovery of how Open Dialogue redefined care: not by aiming to eliminate symptoms, but by meeting the full human through transparent, team-based dialogue. Dr. Seikkula argues that the widening gap between humanistic and conventional approaches must be bridged—and that dialogue itself can be curative. This episode is essential listening for psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and anyone interested in meeting the full human in therapeutic practice. Seikkula, J. (2025). Why dialogue does cure: explaining what makes dialogue unprecedentedly effective in difficult crises.
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Oct 26, 2025 · 1 hr 29 min
White Nanny, Black Child: Systems of Care, Silence and Survival - in conversation with Micheal Henry
In this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995. Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belonging, and survival. We listen to the echoes of care and silence that continue to shape lives long after childhood — and we explore how systems of care can become systems of control when infused with colonial legacies and racialised assumptions. We speak with Micheal Henry, the systemic therapist who facilitated the Tree of Life work featured in the film. Himself care-experienced, he shares his personal and professional reflections on holding space for these stories — the tensions of being both witness and participant — and the power of collective narrative practices in reconnecting people with identity, community, and pride. Together, we consider what this story teaches us about how care systems remember, forget, and repair. How do we, as systemic practitioners, listen to what was once unspeakable? How do we make space for histories that live inside the present? And what might healing look like — for individuals, families, and the systems that raised them? An invitation to think, feel, and reflect systemically on survival, silence, and the enduring search for belonging. Film Reference: White Nanny Black Child. Directed by Andy Mundy-Castle, Doc Hearts and Tigerlily Productions, Channel 5, 2023. Micheal Henry Bio: Michael Henry, is an African-centred Systemic Family and Couples Psychotherapist based in North London. With over 30 years of experience supporting individuals, families, and organisations, Michael brings deep insight into complex trauma, relationships, and identity. A UKCP and AFT-accredited clinician, Michael’s approach blends Systemic Psychotherapy, African Psychology, and Integrative practice, drawing on training in Narrative Therapy, Gottman Method, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), EMDR, and Brainspotting. Born and raised in East London to Jamaican parents, Michael’s work is grounded in cultural awareness, compassion, and wisdom. His journey—from youth work and child protection to psychotherapy and organisational consulting—reflects a lifelong commitment to understanding how people grow, heal, and connect.
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S10 · E94
Oct 12, 2025 · 1 hr 49 min
Still We Listen - Where Whispers Move: Systemic Reverberations of Tracy Chapman's Music with DWP Race Group
In this very special episode we sit down with members of the DWP - Race Group (Shakira Nkanang, Calvin Malcom and John Burnham) as we turn our systemic lens on the iconic album by Tracy Chapman (Tracy Chapman 1988). We ask, how does Tracy Chapman's album provide a soundtrack for confronting race, power, and privilege in therapeutic practice? What do the anthems of our lives reveal about the systems we live in? We unpack how "Talkin' 'bout a Revolution" isn't just a protest song, but a sharp analysis of how power maintains itself by dismissing dissent as a "whisper." We explore "Fast Car" as a devastating map of intergenerational poverty and the gendered family roles that keep people trapped in cycles of false hope. And we listen closely to "Baby Can I Hold You," hearing the profound relational miscommunication and emotional withdrawal that can microcosm the failures of larger systems to truly hear and respond. This episode connects the political, the economic, and the intimately personal, revealing how Chapman's work gives us a language to explore the systems that shape our clients' worlds—and our own. This conversation is more than an analysis of music; it's a living example of how to grapple with systemic themes to transform training, therapeutic practice, and organisations themselves. Join us for a session that bridges art and action, and discover how Chapman’s revolutionary whispers can continue to inspire our own. Calvin Malcolm is a Principal Family and Systemic Psychotherapist working in Devon Partnership Trust Adult Mental Health Services, he is also a Systemic Family Psychotherapist with 26 years of CAMHS experience. He is a Guest Lecturer on the DClinPsy Systemic Teaching at The University of Exeter, and Guest lecturer on the Plymouth University Intermediate level in Family Therapy Course. He is a Systemic Psychotherapy Tutor for doctors in training in Devon. He is also a Systemic Supervisor and a member of The Association of Family Therapy organisation that supports Family and Systemic Psychotherapy training and practice standards John Burnham trained as a Social Worker in 1974 and went on to become Consultant Family and Systemic Psychotherapist in the Inpatient Service for Eating Disorders at Parkview Clinic, Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital, Birmingham. John’s approach to therapy and supervision is under the influence of systemic, narrative, and social construction theories and my working class roots. His professional passions include ‘thinking theory and talking ordinary’; ‘turning practice into theory’ , ‘creating self and relationally reflexive practices’; ‘creating solidarity between young people, parents and professionals through multiple family therapy’, and using social and personal GgRRAAAACCEEEESSSS….S to enable clients and practitioners to conceptualise and influence their experiences. Shakira Nkanang is a Systemic Psychotherapist working for an Independent Fostering Agency, where she conducts therapy sessions with foster carers and social workers. She also delivers foster care and trauma-informed training, as well as systemic training to support supervising social workers. Shakira incorporates an embodied systemic approach in her work and maintains a private practice, working with culturally diverse clients. She is the facilitator of the AFT 'Race' and Diversity Working Party Group. Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman is an American singer-songwriter known for her soulful voice and thought-provoking lyrics. Rising to fame in the late 1980s with hits like "Fast Car" and "Give Me One Reason," her music blends folk, rock, and pop with themes of social justice, personal struggle, and hope. With a career spanning decades, Chapman has become an iconic figure in the music world for her powerful storytelling and timeless sound.
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S10 · E93
Aug 31, 2025 · 1 hr 18 min
An Ocean of Meaning in Speech Melody: Accent, identity and Power in Therapy with Jordan Makmihe
In systemic psychotherapy we often focus on the words we use, but what about the sound of them? In this episode, we meet with systemic psychotherapist and social worker Jordan Makmihe to explore the subtle yet significant role of accent in therapeutic practice. Our conversation considers how the nuances of our speech—the melody, the rhythm, the inflection—carry unspoken stories about identity, belonging, and power. We discuss how these vocal cues quietly influence the relationship between therapist and client, shaping perceptions and dynamics in ways that often go unexamined. We gently unpack the concept of the "standard" accent and its quiet authority, and reflect on the experience of speaking—or listening—with a "non-standard" one. This isn't about grand pronouncements, but about the quiet practice of noticing: noticing our assumptions, our reactions, and the small moments of connection or misunderstanding that accent can bring. Join us for a thoughtful discussion on discovering ways to make space for this often overlooked dimension of human difference, and on the simple yet profound, act of listening more closely to how we speak and hear each other. Jordan Bio: Jordan Makmihe is a qualified systemic psychotherapist, systemic supervisor, and social worker. He trains and supervises other therapists, and has had research published. Jordan works in the NHS, social care, education, and independent practice. Paper reference: The forgotten piece of the orchestra: Raising awareness of accent as a key dimension of identity and experience, and ideas for aesthetic explorations in practice – Jordan Makmihe Context 188, August 2023
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S10 · E92
Aug 2, 2025 · 1 hr 3 min
Reading as Reflexive and Mindful Practice: A Conversation with Desa Markovic
In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with therapist, trainer, supervisor and author Desa Markovic to explore her compelling paper on the Aspects of Reading (2021) - a model that invites practitioners, students, and educators into a deeper, more layered relationship with texts. Desa guides us through a nuanced framework that separates and then interweaves four key reading positions: The Author’s View, The Reader’s Personal Response, Critique, and Self-Reflexivity. Together, we unpack how this model encourages readers to momentarily suspend judgment, identify personal biases, engage ethically, and reflect on the multiple contextual influences that shape meaning. We also discuss the limitations of reading, the intersections of culture, identity, and professional formation, and how this model challenges both passive consumption and systemic echo chambers in training. Whether you're a systemic practitioner, academic, or lifelong learner, this episode offers a powerful invitation to slow down, ask better questions, and develop a more intentional relationship with what we read—and how we read it. “When I feel this way, what does it allow me to learn from this particular paper?” — a question that might just transform your reading practice. Markovic, D. (2021). Aspects of Reading. Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice, 3(2), 129-136.
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S10 · E91
Jul 6, 2025 · 59 min
The Love Revolution: Soul, Soil & Society with Satish Kumar
In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, we sit down with peace activist, former Jain monk, and ecological visionary Satish Kumar to explore the profound power of Radical Love—the focus of his latest book. Together, we dive into how love can be understood not just as a personal feeling, but as a systemic force capable of transforming families, communities, and entire societies. Satish shares his reflections on how love can shape education, economics, politics, healthcare, and environmental action—offering a bold invitation to reimagine social systems rooted in compassion, care, and connection. From his early life in India to walking thousands of miles for peace, Satish brings rich personal stories and deep wisdom about how love, empathy, and interdependence can heal both people and the planet. Tune in for an exploration of: The role of love in shaping resilient families and communities How Radical Love challenges dominant systems of power, economics, and politics Practical ways to cultivate love in social action, education, and daily life The intersection of love, justice, and sustainability Why love must become a guiding principle for systemic change Prepare to be moved, challenged, and inspired. Radical Love (2023) https://shop.resurgence.org/product/view/REBK111/radical-love To see peace in our lifetimes, we have to practise love. This is the radical message of this inspirational book of pithy advice from environmental activist Satish Kumar, which helps us find ways to love ourselves, others, and all beings on planet Earth—even those we may find unlovable. Satish Kumar is well known for his epic walk for world peace in his youth in the 1960s from India to the nuclear capitals of Moscow, Paris, London, and Washington, DC. Wherever he traveled, he found that human beings were capable of a love that could overcome hatred and division. Settling down in the UK, he married his wife, June Mitchell, and founded eco-university Schumacher College in Devon, eventually becoming a leading figure in the UK green movement. Radical Love distills the author’s lifetime of experience as a lover, parent, activist, and educator into simple lessons on transforming our time of ecological crisis, conflict, and scarcity into one in which we experience harmony with nature, safety, and abundance. It is an exploration of the transformative power of love in all its forms, from romantic love to love for one’s family and community to love for the planet and all beings. Kumar’s approach is founded on simplicity (including the Jain principle of aparigraha), generosity, and continuous learning. Like an unfolding metta meditation, the book expands our notions of love to its most sublime universal state and makes a great gift to share with those we love.
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S9 · E90
Jun 1, 2025 · 1 hr 28 min
"In the Nest of Relational Process" - Nora Bateson on Warm Data, Ecology of Connection, and The Systems That Shape Us
What if our biggest crises – from climate collapse to mental health – demand not simpler solutions, but a deeper embrace of complexity? Join us for a profound conversation with Nora Bateson, award-winning filmmaker, writer, and systems thinker. Nora takes us inside the rich ecology of ideas explored in her groundbreaking book, Combining. Nora challenges us to see the world as a web of inseparable relationships, where every action ripples with incalculable consequences. She argues compellingly that tackling our "Polycrisis" requires understanding interdependence, sitting with ambiguity, and nurturing the vital, often unseen, connections she calls "Warm Data" – the lifeblood of complex systems. Discover how "Combining" uniquely blends intellectual rigor, emotional vulnerability, storytelling, poetry, and art to invite us into "Aphanipoiesis" – the mysterious processes by which life collaboratively fosters vitality and evolution. Nora urges us beyond the illusion of "fitting in," towards a practice of "uncutness" and radical interconnectedness. We delve into the real-world application of these ideas through her pioneering Warm Data Labs. Learn how these immersive, transcontextual gatherings foster new ways of knowing and relating, moving beyond isolated data points to grasp living, relational patterns. Crucially, we explore Nora's deep connection to systemic psychotherapy. How does her work, rooted in the legacy of her father, Gregory Bateson, resonate with therapeutic practices? How does understanding systems at multiple levels – from the personal psyche to the global ecosystem – inform healing, relationships, and our collective responsibility for humanity's future? Prepare for a mind-expanding journey where love, humour, curiosity, and the courage to be vulnerable collide with the urgent trials of our time. Nora Bateson doesn't just offer analysis; she beckons us towards revelation and revolution in how we perceive ourselves, our communities, and our place in the intricate tapestry of life.
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