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The Pivot

Andrew Osenga

"What happens when life stops working?" Musician / Author Andrew Osenga talks with thinkers, artists, scientists and theologians about dealing with change, failure, and starting over again. Faith, health, career, family... No subject is off limits in this engaging and intimate series.

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#135
Yesterday · 1 hr 5 min
Jonathan Rogers: What Do You Do When Your Best Work Fails Completely?
Description: Sixteen years ago, Jonathan Rogers finished the novel he was proudest of — and watched it fail so completely that it never made it onto a single bookstore shelf. In this conversation with Andrew Osenga, Jonathan revisits that heartbreak as he re-releases The Charlatan's Boy with a new cover and new illustrations, and traces how the experience forced him to ask an uncomfortable question: why did he need strangers he'd never meet to tell him he mattered? That reckoning eventually pulled him out of a lonely writing life and into founding The Habit, a community built on the idea that writers don't need to compete to do good work — they just need someone in their corner. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Why is it so important to me that people I don't know admire me? Why do I need to be loved by people I can't love back?" - Jonathan Rogers "It's the loneliest thing in the world when the book comes out and the world doesn't stop and notice." - Jonathan Rogers "You don't have to prove yourself. You don't have to make a name for yourself. You've got a name and you've got an identity." - Jonathan Rogers "I'm not nearly as afraid of failure as I used to be." - Jonathan Rogers “Writing is a good thing to do whether you get published or not” - Jonathan Rogers Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Charlatan's Boy by Jonathan Rogers The Wilderking Trilogy by Jonathan Rogers The Habit — Jonathan's membership community/organization for writers The Habit's "Focus Retreat" *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: The Habit Facebook Instagram X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#134
September 1 · 1 hr 19 min
Doug McKelvey: What If Your Hardest Season Shaped You For the Better?
Description: Doug McKelvey is the author of “Every Moment Holy” a bestselling series of prayer books, and his newest volume, “Rites of Passage”, is written for the leap into adulthood. Writing it meant reliving a pattern he never once recognized in himself as a young man: getting close to someone, whether a friendship or a girlfriend, and then — almost on a dime — deciding he was done, with no explanation even to himself. But the real turn in this conversation comes when Douglas describes the year he wrote his very first prayer book; a year of financial trouble, strained friendships, and one bad break after another. The day before his manuscript was due, an editor asked him a simple question — did he think what he was going through was spiritual, a form of resistance — and something clicked into place so obviously that he burst into tears. He'd spent that entire year never once considering it. That shift in perspective has stuck with him ever since, shaping how he now thinks about the real cost paid by pastors, by missionary doctors he's met who lose a patient almost every week for lack of basic supplies, and by anyone doing work that matters. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Certainly through the two and a quarter years process of writing the prayers for this book, I had to wade through cringe-inducing memories of mistakes that I made... I was not very good at loving other people, even maintaining friendships." - Doug McKelvey "We are the mold. God has shaped us through our life experiences and the way he has directed and redeemed those things, so that when that season of life comes along... it takes on the shape of the way God has prepared us uniquely." - Doug McKelvey "That grief... does tender the heart and creates the space to say, okay, I've made a lot of mistakes, but I can bring these — even these mistakes and these failures — now that I recognize them, to you, God." - Doug McKelvey Andrew’s Prayer for Listeners Our dear Lord, You know the plans You’ve made for each of us, The works You have for us to do, Give us courage when the world feels against us, and the enemy seems all around us, and give us patience while the road is long and our efforts so often feel wasted, Help us remember the deepest reality: That You are the author and perfecter of whatever faith we hold, For You, Lord, are good and Your mercy is forever. Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Every Moment Holy: Rites of Passage by Douglas McKelvey Every Moment Holy: Prayer Songs Every Moment Holy: The Live Experience Anchor Hymns The Rabbit Room *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Doug McKelvey’s Website Doug McKelvey’s Facebook Doug McKelvey’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#133
August 18 · 1 hr 4 min
[ENCORE EPISODE] Sally Lloyd-Jones: Is It Too Late to Do the Thing You Love?
Description: This episode with Sally Lloyd-Jones originally aired on November 21, 2017, and it's one of Andrew's favorite conversations from the show. Sally spent years working as an editor for other people's books, certain that writing her own wasn't really an option — until, in her forties, everything changed. She and Andrew talk about the fear that kept her editing instead of writing, the moment she finally decided to find out if she could do it, and how that decision eventually led to books like The Jesus Storybook Bible, which has since sold millions of copies. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The idea was the seed. I already have the idea, and it’s up to God what the harvest is, but my job is to show up.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “We judge our stories halfway through our story... you never judge a novel halfway through a novel. It’s only in looking back that you can see the pattern.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “If you make it excellent, it will reach everyone. If you don’t make it excellent, you won’t, because that’s just how it works—excellence removes all the barriers.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “If you trust what makes you laugh or what moves you, that’s what you have to write... you’ll be original without trying, because you’ll be you.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “Find the thing that brings you alive, because the world needs someone who’s come alive.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “You break through the author barrier and you get out of the way, and it becomes about the story.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd-Jones Thoughts to Make Your Heart Sing by Sally Lloyd-Jones Baby Wren and the Great Gift by Sally Lloyd-Jones How to Be a Baby, by Me, the Big Sister by Sally Lloyd-Jones His Royal Highness, King Baby: A Terrible True Story by Sally Lloyd-Jones Handbag Friends by Sally Lloyd-Jones *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Sally Lloyd Jones’ website Sally Lloyd Jones’ YouTube Sally Lloyd Jones’ Facebook Sally Lloyd Jones’ Instagram Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#132
August 4 · 1 hr
[ENCORE EPISODE] Allen Levi: Can You Trade the Spotlight for a Front Porch?
What does a life spent practicing law have to do with crafting a blockbuster novel? For Allen Levi, the answer lies in the power of storytelling. Before the acclaim of his novel, Theo of Golden, Allen spent 13 years honing his skills as a lawyer—a profession where words were his primary tool for persuasion. In this encore episode, we explore how those years of legal practice—combined with his pivot into music and his dedication to observing the beauty in small, everyday things—laid the foundation for the deep, resonant narrative of Theo of Golden. Join us as we look back at the journey that brought this powerful book to life, proving that the stories we tell are defined by the experiences that shape us. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “As a lawyer, my tool was words. My goal was to persuade. And so after 13 years of law practice, when I ventured into music, it just dawned on me—my tool is words with melody or music and rhythm. My job is to tell stories.” - Allen Levi “To do small things well over a long period of time in the same place is how the kingdom seems to move forward.” - Allen Levi “I see the crop that I’m responsible for as beauty. That’s what I farm.” - Allen Levi Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: allenlevi.com — Allen Levi’s website Theo of Golden by Allen Levi The Last Sweet Mile by Allen Levi Oliviatown by Allen Levi Change for the Better by Allen Levi “Bucket List” by Allen Levi Young Life Louis L’Amour George MacDonald *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Allen Levi’s website Allen Levi’s Facebook Allen Levi’s Instagram Allen Levi’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#131
July 21 · 1 hr 6 min
David French: Can We Handle Criticism Without Breaking?
It started with a dare. David French had his whole life planned out as a teenager — Air Force, fighter jets, the whole thing — until eyesight issues and a friend's bet rerouted him toward the LSAT, and somehow, Harvard Law School. From there, nothing about his career went the way he expected: over a decade defending free speech cases for people on the right and the left, then a writing habit that started as a hobby and eventually carried him to the National Review, the founding of The Dispatch, and a column at the New York Times. David talks with Andrew about what it means to “write with regret instead of outrage” — and what it actually looks like to let real criticism in without letting the bad-faith kind wreck you. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I would just summarize my life or my professional life as I'll just call it the accidental career. Like all the way through.” - David French "It was literally my experience with people trying to censor me that got me interested in free speech and the First Amendment.” - David French "My goal is to be a person with thick skin and a soft heart." - David French "We're not God. We're wrong about a bunch of stuff. And we don't know what we're wrong about, obviously, because if we knew we were wrong, we'd change. So to learn that we're wrong, somebody has to show us." - David French "A revival usually begins with, 'I have sinned.' A revolution begins with, 'you have sinned.'" - David French "Write with regret, not outrage." - David French Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The New York Times — where David is currently an opinion columnist The Dispatch — outlet David helped launch in 2019, home of his newsletter National Review — where David wrote from 2015–2019 FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights and Education) — where David served as president Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) — First Amendment work American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) — First Amendment work Mere Orthodoxy — publication David mentioned reading a thoughtful critique of his Respect for Marriage Act position in The After Party — the church-focused project David works on with Russell Moore and Curtis Chang *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: David French’s Column with the New York Times David French’s Facebook David French’s Instagram David French’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#130
July 7 · 1 hr 31 min
Jason Gray: Do You Need All the Answers?
Jason Gray has spent decades writing the songs that shaped Christian radio, but don't expect this conversation with Andrew Osenga to stay on the hits for long. It winds through Jason's theory of what actually makes a song great versus just successful, and into heavier territory: the childhood speech impediment he once believed God would heal as proof of faith, and what he learned instead when the healing never came. He talks candidly about his divorce, and how years of praying harder than he'd ever prayed for anything didn't save his marriage — and how that experience quietly took apart everything he used to believe about how God shows up for people. What's left, he says, is a faith that's less certain but somehow requires more trust. Along the way, Jason opens up about a stretch of years, brought on by the stress of the divorce, when he lost the ability to concentrate enough to read — and how getting a record player recently brought his love of music and reading back to life. It's an honest, unhurried conversation about growing up, letting go of certainty, and learning to be more suspicious of your own self-righteousness than anyone else's. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "It wasn't the things I said, it wasn't the songs I sang that spoke the loudest to people. It was the fact that I was broken and I got up and I did it anyway." - Jason Gray "Maybe God doesn't want to heal me of my speech impediment, maybe he wants to bring healing to others through it. And maybe it's an example of God's spendthrift economy, where nothing is wasted and everything gets used." - Jason Gray "The most radically transformational thing that I could do is just allow myself to be loved by God and to allow that to become the fundamental piece of my identity — that I'm God's beloved." - Jason Gray "I'm interested in not being self-righteous, you know. And so much of the religious conversation is about being right, and I have the truth and I stand on the word of truth." - Jason Gray "When my life broke in the middle, all of my answers turned into riddles." - Jason Gray "How do I pursue truth but resist my need to be right?" - Jason Gray "If I'm hearing a voice that is telling me something I didn't see before and is asking me to do something I don't want to do, I don't think I'm generating that. I think that is someone else." - Jason Gray "Dear God, bust apart my ideas of you so I can keep growing deeper into intimacy with you." - Jason Gray Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “Roaring Lambs” by Bob Briner “Surprised by Hope” by N.T. Wright (source for "With Every Act of Love") “Pilgrim at Tinker Creek” by Annie Dillard (source for "Nothing Is Wasted") “Theo of Golden” by Allen Levi “Everyday Life” by Coldplay (album) Acoustic Greatest Hits by Jason Gray Acoustic Storytime (Jason's radio show, SiriusXM) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Jason Gray’s website Jason Gray’s Facebook Jason Gray’s Instagram Jason Gray’s X Jason Gray’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#129
June 23 · 59 min
Joey Lankford: Can Digging in the Dirt Change Your Life?
Joey Lankford’s journey is anything but predictable. He went from running a 10-location healthcare company in his early 30s to selling everything he owned and moving his family to the tip of South Africa. When he eventually returned home to Tennessee, he started something totally different: a workforce development farm on state land. In this episode, Joey traces the thread connecting those wild shifts. It all started with adopting a baby girl from Ethiopia, which completely changed how his family viewed their purpose in life. He shares what he found living in the townships outside Cape Town—the unexpected joy, the friendships that reshaped him, and a simple greenhouse of tomatoes that eventually inspired his farm, Cul2vate. Now, that same vision is helping previously incarcerated men and women across Middle Tennessee build new careers. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "What we thought was the adoption of a baby girl to save her from the plights of Africa actually ended up being God's upside-down story of her redeeming our lives and giving us purpose and mission." - Joey Lankford "It was harder to move back from Africa than it was to move to Africa — because I knew what I was coming back to." - Joey Lankford "There's something about putting your hands in the dirt with somebody that makes it not matter if you just got out of jail or if you drove a Bentley up to the barn. The dirt just sort of equalizes it." - Joey Lankford "We all have addictions — yours are just socially disapproved of. Mine just don't create the need for anyone to put me in a cage. But they take me to the same end: separation from the Lord." - Joey Lankford "When people talk about doom and gloom, I'm like — no. The kingdom is moving at warp speed. There are people doing some really cool stuff, using their resources to redeem a lot of broken things." - Joey Lankford Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Cultivate — Joey's workforce development farm ministry; farms behind churches across Tennessee employing previously incarcerated individuals. Men of Valor — Nashville-based reentry ministry Joey named as a key source of Cultivate workers. Goodwill Industries — Partner organization providing life skills training for Cultivate graduates on a monthly basis. Second Harvest Food Bank of Middle Tennessee — Early distribution partner mentioned in building out Cultivate's food-giving model. Tennessee Farm Bureau — Partner that helped establish the Meet the Need foundation, which supplies protein for Cultivate food boxes. *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Cul2vate’s website Joey Lankford’s Facebook Joey Lankford’s Instagram Joey Lankford’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#128
June 9 · 1 hr 3 min
Sara Groves: Are You a 'Mom and Pop' or a Walmart?
Sara Groves is on the Mount Rushmore of Christian singer-songwriters, but this conversation is less about the catalog and more about the life she's been quietly building offstage. Sara joins Andrew to talk about trading a 4,000-square-foot suburban house for a 700-square-foot home down the street from an old church, and what it's taken to keep Art House North — a community arts space in Minnesota — running for fifteen years. Sara also reflects on creativity as a practice for everyone, not just artists, stating her belief that "Beauty will save us," — and why the second half of life might be when you finally start making your most honest work. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "When you're young, you look ahead and think 'if I want to head there, I probably should turn in that direction.’ And then so much happens that you're like — ‘some of it happened because you turned that way, but a lot of it happened because of just, yeah, this isn't doing it anymore.’" - Sara Groves "If you make community the point, you'll kill it. You have to be in mission together to some end." - Sara Groves "The people who already had a thing going are not coming to your thing because they're already tending a fire. So you're gathering people who were looking for a fire." - Sara Groves "God is the ocean and we keep writing about a cup of water. I started writing about the ocean with ‘Add to the Beauty.’" - Sara Groves "My songs used to be weaponized belief system songs. And now they're not. They're just bearing witness songs. I'm just bearing witness to what it means to be human." - Sara Groves "You're always invited to the party that you throw. So throw a party. Play to the room you can fill. If you have 50 friends, play in a room for 45 and have five standing at the back. That's gonna be a really fun night." - Sara Groves "I think everyone should have a creative habit in the same way they have a fitness habit — whether they're a doctor or whoever they are. Beauty will save us." - Sara Groves Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Sara Groves’ website Sara Groves Patreon Art House North IJM (International Justice Mission) Add to the Beauty — Sara Groves Fireflies and Songs — Sara Groves Invisible Empires — Sara Groves "Obsolete" — Sara Groves "Mystery" — Sara Groves "Take It All In" — Sara Groves *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Sara Groves’ website Sara Groves’ Facebook Sara Groves’ Instagram Sara Groves’ X Sara Groves’ YouTube Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media .
#127
May 26 · 53 min
Who Is Amy Grant Now?
Thirteen years is a long time to be quiet, especially when music has been your whole life. Amy Grant joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot to talk about what it took to come back: a bike wreck in the summer of 2022, hours of neurological testing at Vanderbilt, and a doctor who gave her two words of advice — lean in. What followed was a new album, The Me That Remains, built not from a record deal or a producer contract, but from a poem Amy wrote to herself about who she was now, on the other side of everything. They talk about the song she wrote with Tom Douglas the morning after her mother passed, why she calls her daily movement routine "child's play," and what it actually feels like to make music in your sixties — without pressure, without pretending, and with something that sounds a lot like peace. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Everyone is always in some state of recovery. You can't live life and not be." - Amy Grant "Everything is the result of incremental change over the long haul. That just has been the beautiful lesson of a long season of recovery." - Amy Grant "Most mornings I wake up and I just feel like — I woke up. I got another day." - Amy Grant "It's a noisy world, it's a busy world. What everybody probably needs is a little more silence, space, peace. But as a creative, I hope I create something, anything, that somebody wants to return to." - Amy Grant "Caring for something — a person or something — is a big part of loving it." - Amy Grant Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “The Me That Remains” — Amy Grant “The Hits” (compilation) — Amy Grant “The Journey” (compilation) — Amy Grant Wayne Brzenka — artist who created the album cover artwork *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Amy Grant’s website Amy Grant’s Facebook Amy Grant’s X Amy Grant’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media .
#126
May 12 · 55 min
N.T. Wright: What If Christianity Got Heaven Completely Wrong?
What if the goal of the Christian life isn't to escape this world — but to welcome the next one into it? N.T. Wright, one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars and author of 87 books, joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot for a conversation as warm and wide-ranging as it is theologically rich. Tom traces the arc of a life shaped by choir stalls in northeast England, Scripture Union camps in the Scottish Highlands, and a decades-long love affair with the Bible that has never stopped surprising him. He unpacks the central argument of his new book, God's Homecoming — that Christianity was never about souls escaping to heaven, but about heaven coming down to earth. Along the way, he reflects on what it means to hold your convictions with both conviction and humility, why personal transformation and theological understanding are more connected than we think. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Most people today imagine that the point of Christianity is to go to heaven when you die. They are all wrong. The point of Christianity is not that we should go to heaven. The point of Christianity is that heaven should come to us." - N.T. Wright "That's always been a sign for me that Christian maturity has, as one of its markers, the moment when texts you couldn't figure out before suddenly make sense — and you realize there's probably a lot more out there still waiting for us to grow into." - N.T. Wright "I think I'm a writer who happens to be in love with the Bible and theology." - N.T. Wright "But so I grew up in that atmosphere and the mantra really was, I will disagree like anything with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say what you say and to see the stuff like you see it." - N.T. Wright "You can't rush things as a theologian. You're working on a problem — and then gradually, gradually, you come around a corner, see things from a different light." - N.T. Wright Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “God's Homecoming” — N.T. Wright “Surprised by Hope” — N.T. Wright “The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions” — N.T. Wright & Marcus Borg “Spellbound” — Molly Worthen “Democracy and Solidarity” — James Davison Hunter “Jesus and John Wayne” — Kristin Kobes Du Mez “The Samurai” — Shusaku Endo "Genesis" (Yesterday parody) — N.T. & Francis Collins Ask N.T. Wright Anything — N.T. Wright's podcast Biologos Lanier Theological Library Yarntan Manor — theological library outside Oxford *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: N.T. Wright’s website N.T Wright’s Facebook N.T. Wright’s Instagram God’s Homecoming by N.T. Wright Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#125
April 28 · 54 min
Sissy Goff & David Thomas: The Five Skills Every Kid Needs
What if the thing we're most trying to protect our kids from is exactly what they need? Sissy Goff and David Thomas — children's therapists, co-hosts of Raising Boys and Girls, and founders of Daystar Counseling — join Andrew Osenga on The Pivot to talk about their new book Capable and the growing crisis of capability they're seeing in kids and teens. From the rise of anxiety and depression to kids who won't get their driver's license or text a new friend, Sissy and David break down what's going wrong, and more importantly, what parents can do about it. They talk about the five skills every kid needs, why stress and discomfort can be growth-giving, and how parents can stop getting in the way of the independence their kids are desperately craving. This is one of those conversations that will change how you parent starting today. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Kids learn that they're capable by experience." - Sissy Goff "When I exercise, I don't get stronger unless I stress my muscles. The exact same thing is true of our souls." - David Thomas "You will experience some really, really hard things and loss will knock the wind out of you. And there will be something transformative on the other side if you allow that to happen." - David Thomas "The more connected kids are with their parents, the more healthy adults they grow into." - David Thomas "Parenting is so hard, and it is so important that we are encouraging each other, that we're cheering each other on." - Sissy Goff Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: www.RaisingBoysAndGirls.com — Sissy and David's website “Capable” by Sissy Goff and David Thomas “I Am Capable” — the companion workbook for “Capable” “The Daystar Dogs” book series by David Thomas and Sissy Goff “Raising Boys and Girls” podcast by David Thomas and Sissy Goff Daystar Counseling Center, Sissy and David's counseling practice in Nashville Hope Heals — the organization run by Jay and Katherine Wolf, who wrote the foreword to “Capable” Hopetown — Daystar's summer retreat program on Kentucky Lake *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Raising Boys & Girls Website Raising Boys & Girls Facebook Raising Boys & Girls Instagram Raising Boys & Girls YouTube Raising Boys & Girls TikTok Raising Boys & Girls Podcast Capable by Sissy Goff & David Thomas I Am Capable workbook by Sissy Goff & David Thomas Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media .
#124
April 14 · 1 hr 9 min
Tim Timmons: Stop Working for God and Start Joining Him
Tim Timmons is a singer/songwriter, author, podcaster, pastor, cancer survivor, and—as of this year—the subject of a major motion picture. But this conversation isn’t really about the movie. It's about what it’s like to be Tim Timmons right now, in the middle of one of the busiest and most surreal seasons of his life. Andrew and Tim talk about what it means to stop working for God and start joining Him, why sorrow is a lot like manure (seriously), how Tim thinks about holding grief and gratitude at the same time, and what years of practicing obscurity have to do with the doors that are opening now. This one’s honest, funny, and surprisingly freeing—for anyone who’s ever tried to build their own little suburb in the kingdom of God. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quit working for God and I said I'll never open a door again.” - Tim Timmons "Sorrow sobers us and gives us a perspective we've never had before." - Tim Timmons “My ministry is just being a re-presenter of the heart of God everywhere I am in the mundane and in the freaking awesome.” - Tim Timmons "Once I stop working for [God] and just start hanging out with Him, I just become more beautiful." - Tim Timmons Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Waking Up Again by Tim Timmons and Hilary Timmons Tim's website "I Can Only Imagine 2" — the movie Tim is featured in *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Tim Timmons’ website Tim Timmons’ Facebook Tim Timmons’ Instagram Tim Timmons’ X Tim Timmons’ YouTube channel Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#123
March 31 · 43 min
Dr. Curt Thompson: Overcoming Anxiety Through Connection
What if the problem isn’t that you don’t know enough, but that you’re trying to change alone? In this episode of The Pivot Podcast, Andrew sits down with psychiatrist and author Dr. Curt Thompson to explore the intersection of neuroscience, faith, and emotional healing. Together, they unpack why anxiety is often rooted in the feeling of being alone in our suffering and how real transformation happens through connection, not just information. Drawing from interpersonal neurobiology, Curt explains how relationships shape the brain and why healing from trauma, shame, and painful memories requires safe, consistent community. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Anxiety is ultimately about my perception that I am being left alone with myself in my suffering.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “We think information will transform us, but that’s not how the brain works.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “The brain becomes less anxious when it is connected to other people.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “It takes about less than three seconds for shame to encode… a remembered event of joy takes 60 to 90 seconds.” - Dr. Curt Thompson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Soul of Shame by Dr. Curt Thompson The Soul of Desire by Dr. Curt Thompson Center for Being Known, Dr. Curt Thompson’s organization New Story Behavioral Health, Dr. Curt Thompson’s clinical practice *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Curt Thompson’s Website Curt Thompson’s Facebook Curt Thompson’s Instagram Curt Thompson’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#122
March 17 · 44 min
The Art of Dying with Dr. Lydia Dugdale
In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew Osenga sits down with physician and author Lydia Dugdale to explore the surprising wisdom found in confronting mortality. Drawing from her book The Lost Art of Dying, Lydia shares what centuries-old traditions, modern medicine, and her experiences as a doctor in New York City have taught her about death, dignity, and living well. From pandemic hospital tents to ancient reflections on the “art of dying,” this conversation wrestles with life’s biggest questions and invites listeners to consider how an awareness of our finite days can lead to a richer, more meaningful life. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you actually live your life aware of your finitude—aware that your days are numbered—then you live into the fullness of life in a different way.” - Lydia Dugdale “The idea is there’s an art of dying. There’s a way that we think about living well to the end so that we die well, but that doesn’t just happen right at the end.” - Lydia Dugdale “I thought that normal people talked about death because there’s nothing you can do about it. We’re all going to die, so you might as well anticipate it.” - Lydia Dugdale "It's just a fact of life. We're all gonna die—get over it—[so how] are you gonna lean into the fullness of life with that reality?" - Lydia Dugdale “I have taken care of enough patients who reach the end of their lives and they are scared out of their wits because they have never wrestled with these questions.” - Lydia Dugdale Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Lost Art of Dying by Lydia Dugdale *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Lydia Dugdale’s Website Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#121
March 3 · 54 min
From Wall Street to the Jesuits: Father James Martin on Prayer & Pivoting with Peace
In this episode of The Pivot Podcast, Andrew sits down with James Martin—Jesuit priest, bestselling author, and editor-at-large at America Media—to talk about calling, career pivots, and learning to pray in the middle of uncertainty. Before joining the Jesuits, Father Jim worked in corporate finance after graduating from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, but a growing restlessness, and the writings of Thomas Merton, led him to a radically different path. Together they explore discernment, suffering, spiritual dryness, and how ancient prayer practices can steady us during seasons of change. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “God not only wants you to make good decisions, good and healthy and life-giving and faithful decisions, but God will help you make those good decisions.” - Father James Martin “We say in the Jesuits: trust your heart, but use your head too, or trust your head and use your heart too.” - Father James Martin “I think many people believe that everyone else has an easier time praying than they do.” - Father James Martin “Imagine saying you’re friends with someone, but you never spend any time with them. Sometimes that’s how we treat our relationship with God.” - Father James Martin “Fame certainly doesn’t solve everything, right? It doesn’t solve your problems. And in fact, it can sometimes make them worse.” - Father James Martin “I really don’t think God sends us suffering to test us or to punish us. But I do think suffering is just part of the human condition.” - Father James Martin Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Work in Progress by Father James Martin Learning to Pray by Father James Martin In All Seasons, For All Reasons (Volume 1) by Father James Martin In All Seasons, For All Reasons (Volume 2) by Father James Martin Give Us This Day daily prayer and reflection resource *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Father James Martin’s Facebook Father James Martin’s Instagram Father James Martin’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#120
February 17 · 1 hr 17 min
Kelsey McGinnis: When the Detour Becomes the Destination
In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew talks with Kelsey McGinnis—a musicologist, educator, and writer/editor for Christianity Today—about embracing life’s detours and letting go of the pressure to be perfect. Kelsey shares how she found her unexpected career by following her heart when her original plans fell apart, and how becoming a parent taught her to hold her goals loosely. She and Andrew dive into the messy reality of having multiple creative interests, exploring whether it’s better to focus on one thing or dabble in many, regardless of how others try to put you in a box. Finally, they discuss how to honestly critique parts of evangelical culture while keeping your faith and creativity intact, and the freedom that comes with choosing moderation over extremes. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There were a number of years of just kind of, Well, whatever happens happens. And then after undergrad, things kind of went off the rails. I developed a pretty severe eating disorder. And in the process of my life blowing up, I decided, I am gonna go to grad school. I had no grand plan with all of this, I just knew this was something I loved to do.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I needed to be doing something that I loved that was helping take up more space in my brain than an eating disorder. Doing a PhD did it.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I started getting more of a vision for what a career could look like, got married, had kids, and that messes things up in all kinds of ways and makes you hold all your plans really loosely.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I was a little blindsided by how much I liked being a mom. I had not spent a lot of time thinking about what it would be like to be a parent. That experience as a graduate student sort of forced me to say, ‘I love what I’m doing, I would do this for the rest of my life, but I also love being a mom. So if there’s no way for me to do these things at the same time, that’s okay.’” - Kelsey McGinnis “When I read Christian parenting books, the framework that is used for everything is that any form of child resistance to what a parent wants to do is sin and rebellion. And I just remember thinking, I don’t think my one year old is manipulating me.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I keep learning that when I try to do something that’s not in the lane that other people think I’m in, that nobody knows what to do with that. There are a bunch of things I would have done differently in my career—I could have made the same art, made the projects differently—had I had a better understanding of how people view me.” - Andrew Osenga “I kept hopping between things, and there came to be a point where having a bit of skill in all those things became its own skill. And I’m just now starting to step into cases where the fact that I can do six things puts me in a different category than the guy who can do one thing really well.” - Andrew Osenga “Writing, for me, is a constant self-examination and self-questioning. I send things off to my editors with so many apologies.” - Kelsey McGinnis “If you have no other life, no other set of knowledge, you actually are kind of crippled. We are not meant to be siloed creatures, even in areas where you need to be an expert. Like, I don’t want a surgeon who’s not done their 10,000 hours, but you also want a surgeon who’s had a life outside that. I think that’s really helpful.” - Andrew Osenga “Christian women get all kinds of mixed messages about what our bodies are for, what our value is, what we’re supposed to be doing in our relationships and in our families. And so I’ve been looking at the different ways that faith language gets used to convince people that they need to do this or that with their body.” - Kelsey McGinnis “We’re really bad at moderation, humans in general. Everyone wants to do a cold plunge or eat a thousand grams of protein. Nothing is moderate, nothing is measured. I will stand by that diet culture as a phenomenon is destructive. But I can’t turn around and tell people their bodies don’t matter.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I want to spend a lot of time around quietly faithful people, actually be one of those quietly faithful people and take that version of lived faith more seriously than what I see online.” - Kelsey McGinnis “One trend of the past fifteen years that I find troubling is the discomfort with imperfection or roughness in any way. We want everything to be so smooth, so seamless. That’s my number one advice right now for people who are looking to engage with art, a sacred thing is being present for the creativity of another person and entering in if you can.” - Kelsey McGinnis Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Christianity Today Belmont University “Good News” feat. Andrew Osenga and Josh Wilson Brandon Lake The Myth of Good Christian Parenting by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey McGinnis Rolling Stone Shane Claiborne HM Magazine University of Iowa Campus Crusade for Christ (Cru) AmeriCorps Rick Warren Dr. Oz *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Kelsey McGinnis’ website Kelsey McGinnis’ Facebook Kelsey McGinnis’ Instagram Kelsey McGinnis’ X Kelsey McGinnis’ YouTube Kelsey McGinnis’ Substack Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#119
February 10 · 1 hr 21 min
Jason & Rhonda Halbert: Let Go and See What Happens
Miracles! Cancer! Kelly Clarkson! Floods! Family! Oh yeah, and a book, too! On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by married couple Jason (Kelly Clarkson’s music director and former member of Sonicflood) and Rhonda Halbert, who have been through way more than their fair share of trauma—including shifting careers, three separate cancer diagnoses, a destroyed home, and loss after loss—and how they have used their creative outlets to process their experiences. They share what happens when you learn to let go and why it’s okay to ask big questions as you wade through complicated feelings. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Jason and Rhonda have been through trauma after trauma after trauma and yet when you talk to them, they are just so full of life and joy.” - Andrew Osenga “The touring industry is not made for families, so we found ourselves maybe four years into our marriage having completely grown apart. And Rhonda was going to leave, she was done.” - Jason Halbert “It’s a consistent theme for us: go passionately into something and then it fails spectacularly. You can believe with all your heart either God has led you or you’re following something you feel is right, and then it falls apart and you’re like, Where did I mess up?” - Jason Halbert “[I did not want to] make money off the church, and I can trace those steps all the way to Kelly Clarkson and now a 22-year career with her, which is unheard of. None of this would’ve happened if we had fought to hold onto Sonicflood, all that came from letting go of it.” - Jason Halbert “You would think that having experienced your precious thing and letting go of it, you’d think; Wow, look what came out of that… you would think as humans, we would get good at doing that. But every single time that happens, it’s like the first time it’s ever happened.” - Jason Halbert “Sometimes, hanging on to something too long chokes the life out of you, and that’s why you have to learn to let go.” - Rhonda Halbert “Miracles happen in multiple ways, we just have to be willing to see them and we have to be willing to walk through the hard journey to get to the other side, whatever that looks like.” - Rhonda Halbert “You have to hang on to whatever God is saying, doing, promising, giving. You’ve got to pursue Him in the hardest, longest, depleting of your life journey to get to the end, because it’s on the other side where you start to say, ‘God is moving and God is doing something miraculous.’” - Rhonda Halbert “Human nature is just to come back around to doubt, it’s just how we’re wired. I hit rock bottom, there were a few days when I woke up and I was so angry at God that I was like, ‘Why’d you have to wake me up today?’” - Rhonda Halbert “We’re still in the thick of our trauma. We’re not completely out. We didn’t come out of the story going, ‘See, you can do it too!’ We’re in the middle of it and we’re still struggling, but we’re working it out as we’re continuing to walk forward.” - Rhonda Halbert “Our faith is stronger than ever, but the questions we’re asking about it are bigger than ever. Everything’s layered and threaded.” - Jason Halbert Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Kelly Clarkson DC Talk Sonicflood Brownsville Revival Caretaker by Jason & Rhonda Halbert Lost Amy Grant Belmont University Sparrow Records Steven Curtis Chapman Twila Paris True Artist Management Michael W. Smith Backstreet Boys Blessed Be Your Name by Matt Redman Here I Am to Worship by Tim Hughes Vanderbilt Children’s Hospital Justin Guarini American Idol Stage Wives organization Dave Ramsey The Kelly Clarkson Show Tiger King Colbie Calliat The Chosen Nashville Outer Banks *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Jason & Rhonda’s website Jason & Rhonda’s Facebook Jason’s Instagram Jason’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#118
February 3 · 1 hr 2 min
Fred Bahnson: Challenging Christian Stereotypes
Fred Bahnson is a writer, essayist, and ordained minister whose work explores the intersection of faith, nature, and community. In this profound and far-ranging conversation, Fred and Andrew discuss the adventurous spirit of Thomas Merton, wrestling with the notion of original sin, and finding an “embodied experience” of faith rooted in the natural world. Fred shares how his work—from his book Soil and Sacrament to his recent films and essays for Emergence Magazine—is an effort to present a vision of Christian faith that challenges common stereotypes, focusing instead on the larger story of what God is doing and how we live as people of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Thomas Merton] had this real adventuresome spirit that I really resonate with. And that’s very much how I conceive of my own faith journey, is it’s this unfolding adventure.” - Fred Bahnson “So much of what you’re wrestling with are things that I’m wrestling with. Even deep, theological ideas of, What is your faith?” - Andrew Osenga “The theology that I grew up with, at least as I received it, was all about original sin and sort of, ‘You are stained to the core. You are rotten to the core of your being.’ And it never really resonated, it just didn’t ring true to me. I knew I was sinful, but I kept thinking, If we’re created in the image of God, how can that be true that we’re also rotten to the core?” - Fred Bahnson “I think [boarding school] was where I had an early imitation of God’s presence, that sense of, Okay, I’m on my own. I had to learn how to become self-sufficient and a lot of that was learning to pray, just kind of crying out in pain to God and feeling the love come back at me.” - Fred Bahnson “I didn’t have this ‘calling’ to be a pastor, it was more just wanting to understand this faith that had shaped me and that I sort of couldn’t get away from.” - Fred Bahnson “I learned about other faith communities who were starting farms and growing their own food and reconnecting with the land, but in a very faith-focused way. And I was really fascinated by that whole growing movement.” - Fred Bahnson “This is where language doesn’t really get at our experience. I’ve sought all my life to get beyond the isms and get to the pure drop, the direct experience. That’s a lot of what I do as a writer, just place the reader there with me in the moment. To me, that is so much more powerful than ideas or argument or diatribe.” - Fred Bahnson “We’re nature looking back at itself. The environment is constantly moving in and out of us. We are nature and there’s no dividing line.” - Fred Bahnson “The faith I’m drawn to is very much an embodied experience. You’re doing things, you’re smelling things, you’re watching and hearing and all of your senses are engaged. I think that’s the faith we need if we’re going to have any chance of surviving.” - Fred Bahnson “It’s a writerly urge to use your own story as a window through which the reader can look onto some larger vista behind. Ultimately, you want to be the clear pane of glass that the reader looks through. You’re not. You’re not the final destination of the reader’s gaze. If at the end of the day, the story is just about what happened to Fred Bahnson, then I failed. It’s about the larger story you’re trying to tell.” - Fred Bahnson “I want to present a vision of the faith that maybe challenges some stereotypes of what a Christian is. For me, that larger story is almost always about what God is doing in our lives and how we live as people of faith.” - Fred Bahnson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Thomas Merton “On the Road with Thomas Merton” by Fred Bahnson, film by Jeremy Siefert Wilbur Awards The Live You Save May Be Your Own by Paul Elie The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton Boris Pasternak James Baldwin Monastery of Christ in the Desert Redwoods Monastery Annie Dillard City Lights Bookstore (San Francisco) Laurence Ferlinghetti Emergence Magazine Jeremy Siefert Montana State University Duke Divinity School Wendell Berry Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell Berry Soil and Sacrament by Fred Bahnson Anathoth Community Garden (North Carolina) Orion Magazine Michael Pollan W.K. Kellogg Foundation Wake Forest University School of Divinity Hannah Coulter by Wendell Berry Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry Barry Lopez The Wisdom of the Desert by Thomas Merton The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology compiled by Igumen Chariton of Valamo “Guardians of Memory” by Fred Bahnson (Harper’s Magazine) The Forest Beyond film by Jeremy Siefert and Fred Bahnson The Church Forests of Ethiopia film by Jeremy Siefert Thoughts In Solitude by Thomas Merton Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Fred Bahnson’s website Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#117
January 27 · 1 hr 8 min
Matt Markins: Mentorship for Gen G-Z
In this week’s episode, we sit down with Matt Markins, president and COO of Awana, a global organization dedicated to guiding children toward a meaningful life through mentorship and community partnership. Matt shares the poignant childhood experiences—including the day his father left—that set him on a path defined by the powerful influence of caring mentors. He discusses how those early connections shaped his deep-seated passion for helping kids discover lasting values and a strong inner compass. Matt offers practical ways for adults to foster deep, meaningful connections with the next generation, underscoring the critical role of intentional presence and open dialogue in a world where anxiety and isolation feel increasingly universal. He shares his vision for a global community built on shared positive principles, where compassionate guidance helps young people navigate the “counterfeit narratives” of modern life to find authentic peace and connection. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “My earliest memory is the day that my dad walked out on our family. In the days, weeks, months after that, my mom finds her way to a local church. I’m probably four years old and I remember this moment with great crystal clarity something in my heart saying, ‘I want this. This is better.’ That was the moment I took my first step of faith and trusted Jesus as Savior.” - Matt Markins “It is funny how God can direct your steps, sometimes in very crooked paths, but somehow He straightens it out.” - Matt Markins “We have pivots, right, chapters that come to an end. I literally picked up a phone and called somebody I knew, David, and said ‘Hey, do you think Awana could ever use me?’ And David got up from that call and went to the president’s desk and booked a meeting, and the rest is history.” - Matt Markins “Discipleship is relational. No matter how much we try to AI discipleship, human-on-human interaction and mentoring and coaching and consulting… if we don’t control the calendar, the calendar will control you.” - Matt Markins “Start putting blocks of time way out in advance on [your] calendar. You have to buy the real estate of your time well in advance. Then when you begin to approach it, you can say, ‘Oh year, I want to use my time differently. What is it that I need to build into that space?’” - Matt Markins “The cultural gap between us as global citizens is really narrowing. When it comes to anxiety or depression or isolation, we’re all kind of at a similar spot.” - Matt Markins “Kids need adults around them that have God on their heart, that are open to being redeemed and shaped by God.” - Matt Markins “If I can talk to my kids about ballet, about the latest pop artists, about what’s happening in their school, and that’s natural for me, then I have built the infrastructure. The conduit is in place for me to do discipleship. The number one thing we need in our homes is dialog.” - Matt Markins “There’s all kinds of things in life that are holding us captive. We’re allowing our hearts to be open for something else to come in and that something else is counterfeit. There are counterfeit narratives coming at our children, at you and me, and we let them sink into our story, into our minds, into our hearts.” - Matt Markins “Christianity is good, but the danger is to say that secular culture is bad and to say, ‘But there’s no problems in our culture.’ Christian culture has all kinds of problems because there’s sin inside of us.” - Matt Markins “All the heroes of the faith were pretty jacked up people. It’s because of grace that we’re saved, because of grace that God can change us sometimes in a moment, sometimes in a lifetime.” - Matt Markins “Peace is available to me because of Jesus. So I am really working on how to be cognizant of that, how to spiritually be sitting in God’s presence and be connected to that, but also how to make sure that my life is wired to where I can set aside time to cultivate that even more.” - Matt Markins Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Awana Mikhail Gorbachev Oprah Winfrey Young Life Anchor Hymns Samford University Inside Out Welch College John Mark Comer Pastor Mark Sayers The Hunger Games Emotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter Scazzaro Immanuel Nashville The Story We Tell Our Children by Matt Markins *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Matt Markins’ website Matt Markins’ Facebook Matt Markins’ Instagram Matt Markins’ X Matt Markins’ YouTube Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.
#116
January 20 · 1 hr 6 min
Emerging from the Numb: Josh Wilson Embraces Life “Unmuted”
In this week’s episode, Andrew Osenga sits down with friend and musician Josh Wilson to discuss his journey of personal and professional change. Josh shares why his answer to “What have you changed your mind about and why?” is profoundly different now than it would have been four years ago. He opens up about his past struggles with alcohol addiction and anxiety, and how his decision to speak publicly about these experiences became a significant pivot in his life and career. Discover how embracing vulnerability and seeking help transformed his songwriting and approach to his artistry, leading to his latest album, “Mental Help.” Thought-Provoking Quotes: “When I started drinking, I drank in moderation. It wasn’t a problem for a number of years. But when it became a problem, I was drinking to turn down those questions, to turn down the volume on the anxiety and sort of the existential hum that was always there. I didn’t realize this until I quit, because when I quit they came back.” - Josh Wilson “I realized it’s just more fun to be honest and tell the truth in my songwriting and in my own personal life with friends and family. It’s not that I air all my dirty laundry. I’m the Venn diagram of who people think I am and who I actually am. I’m trying to close that as much as possible in an appropriate way.” - Josh Wilson “I hope when someone hears me talk about these things honestly—anxiety, depression, and addiction—I hope it’s disarming in the sense that if someone hears it, whether in conversation or in a song, they think, Okay, yeah, it's normal to deal with these kinds of things.” - Josh Wilson “I’ve released so many songs that I’ve already said so many things about subject A, B, and C. It’s like, Well, I could write another song, or I could try and dig even deeper and find something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable to talk about and hopefully makes people lean in, like, God’s not mad at you. I want to hear that.” - Josh Wilson “I had a mental breakdown in 2022, and thankfully I’m so much better. Now I’m to the point where I have the mental capacity. I’m sort of rebuilding it all and picking up where I left off back in 2019, and taking multiple instruments out. I want to connect on a human level with people.” - Josh Wilson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Radnor Lake State Park The Painted Desert album by Andrew Osenga Mental Help album by Josh Wilson “Jesus and Therapy” song by Josh Wilson “God’s Not Mad at You” song by Josh Wilson Jubilee YouTube channel The Russell Moore Show Phil Keaggy Ed Sheeran Jason Gray *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Josh Wilson’s website Josh Wilson’ Instagram Josh Wilson’s Facebook Josh Wilson’s YouTube Josh Wilson’s TikTok Josh Wilson’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

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