The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Vox Media Podcast Network

Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop features two of the world's most sought-after experts on connection, change, and leadership making the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities — she’s a qualitative researcher; he’s a quantitative researcher — they explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. New episodes drop every Thursday. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Subscribe Play latest Open in podnodRSS feed Show website

21 episodes
Updated Thursday

Episodes21

Newest first

Thursday · 1 hr 24 min
Leading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe
What does it take to stay calm when millions are watching? Rebecca Lowe, the host of NBC’s Premier League coverage and Fox’s record-breaking 2026 World Cup broadcast, joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant to explore why preparation—not confidence—is her real superpower; the weight of being one of the only women in the room; and what it really means to lead when things get chaotic. Together, they unpack the difference between presence and preparedness, the “permission slip” moment that defines great leadership, and why the loudest person in the room isn’t always the one in charge. Along the way, Rebecca reflects on breaking barriers in a male-dominated industry, how she earns trust from personalities like Zlatan Ibrahimović, and the teachable habit she uses to keep her co-hosts focused on live TV. The Return of Coach Lasso – NBC Sports, 2014, YouTube Nessun Dorma, Rome 1990 – Luciano Pavarotti, 1990, YouTube Double Standards for Competence – Martha Foschi, 2000, Annual Review of Sociology "Executive Presence" Is Overrated – Adam Grant & Brené Brown, 2025, Instagram Entrepreneur Passion and Preparedness in Business Plan Presentations – Xiao-Ping Chen, 2009, Academy of Management Journal Beyond Nine to Five – Lieke ten Brummelhuis, 2017, Academy of Management Discoveries Building atomic habits with James Clear – Adam Grant (Host), July 21, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant Can Your Employees Really Speak Freely? – James Detert, 2016, Harvard Business Review Trailblazing Motivation and Marginalized Group Members – Karren Knowlton, 2025, Organization Science Bullet Time Effect in "Sherlock" the BBC TV Series – Moffat & Gattiss, January 14, 2014, BBC/YouTube Conversational Style – Deborah Tannen, 2005, Oxford University Press Who Won't Shut Up in Meetings? – Adam Grant, 2021, The Washington Post Dare to Lead read-along workbook (Permission Slips) – Brené Brown, 2021, Brené Brown, LLC Tell Me What I Did Wrong – Stacey Finkelstein, 2012, Journal of Consumer Research Emotional Contagion – Elaine Hatfield, 1993, Current Directions in Psychological Science Huge If True – Cleo Abram, YouTube Range – David Epstein, 2019, Riverhead Books The science of performing under pressure with Sian Beilock – Adam Grant (Host), March 28, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant (“Twisties” discussion at 8:50) Hidden Potential – Adam Grant, 2023, Viking What Being Sober Has Meant to Me – Brené Brown, 2019, brenebrown.com The Gifts of Imperfection – Brené Brown, 2010, Hazelden Publishing Positive Conceptions of Perfectionism – Joachim Stoeber, 2006, Personality and Social Psychology Review The Queen Bee Phenomenon – Belle Derks, 2016, The Leadership Quarterly Some Effects of Proportions on Group Life: Skewed Sex Ratios and Responses to Token Women – Rosabeth Moss Kanter, 1977, American Journal of Sociology Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex – Kimberlé Crenshaw, 1989, University of Chicago Legal Forum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
July 30 · 1 hr 12 min
Why Sports Matter Even When the Game Doesn’t with Roger Bennett
Why do sports make us cry, unite strangers, and create memories that last a lifetime? In this episode, Men in Blazers founder and CEO Roger Bennett joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant fresh off a 39-day World Cup marathon to explore what the tournament revealed about identity, belonging, and the power of collective effervescence. Together, they unpack the difference between hero players and hero teams, what it means to be a true fan, the political complexities surrounding the World Cup, and how sports create shared experiences that shape our lives. Along the way, Roger shares stories from the road, reflects on the strange grief of “World Cup withdrawal,” and revisits some of the tournament’s most memorable stories, including Erling Haaland’s taxidermy shop detour, the Cape Verde goalkeeper who became a global icon overnight, the controversial red card reversal, and more. Roger Bennett – Men in Blazers Media Network The Englishman Who Became America’s No. 1 Soccer Fan – David Waldstein, July 16, 2026, The New York Times Men in Blazers’ Roger Bennett Eats Two Dinners During the World Cup “Chicken-tinga burros are the Messi of burros.” – Ben Widdicombe, July 17, 2026, New York Magazine Brené Brown on Surrounding Yourself With People Who Take Pleasure in Your Joy (Schadenfreude vs. Freudenfreude) – Ellen DeGeneres, April 1, 2022, TheEllenShow Premier League to bring all 20 clubs to U.S. in activation after 2026 World Cup – Victoria Hernandez, July 23, 2026, Yahoo Sports The Kansas City fanwalk had us all like… – OnsOranje, Royal Dutch Football Association The Numbers Game: Why Everything You Know About Football Is Wrong – Anderson & Sally, 2013, Penguin Men in Blazers - “The Women’s Game” and “Vamos” (Platform links) – The Men in Blazers Media Network New Volume Edited by Phil Smith and Sébastien Tutenges: Collective Effervescence – 2026, Yale Center for Cultural Sociology ROG’s Heartbreaking Farewell and Stunning Comeback at Goodison Park (Everton) – Roger Bennett, 2026, YouTube Brené Brown: The Power of Vulnerability & Joy in Liverpool! – Roger Bennett, April, 2025, Men in Blazers (Interview) Anfield sings 'You'll Never Walk Alone' to kick off new season – NBC Sports, August 15, 2025, YouTube We Are the World (Cup): A Personal History of the World's Greatest Sporting Event – Roger Bennett, 2026, HarperCollins Who Belongs? Football and the Reinvention of the Modern Nation – Josh Wilson, 2026, TIME The definition of a true fan – Adam Grant, Instagram Folarin Balogun's lifted suspension – Roger Bennett, CBS Morning News, Instagram This is so awkward: Modern puberty explained – Cara Natterson & Vanessa Kroll Bennett, 2023, Rodale Books Human challenges in polar and space environments – Sandal et al., 2006, Springer Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
July 23 · 1 hr 3 min
The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability
This episode is a master class in coaching as Aiko Bethea, one of the most respected senior leadership coaches in the country, takes Brené through a current leadership conflict in real time, showing just how hard it is to slow down and lead from your values instead of your urgency. The coaching session is underpinned by Aiko's new "Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable" framework that focuses on why self-leadership is so critical in today's complex operating environment. Together, they dig into the difference between assuming good intent and believing someone is doing the best they can, and why that distinction changes what accountability actually looks like in practice. Aiko also introduces and models the powerful coaching practice of "three levels of listening" and how it's central to developing a coaching mindset. Aiko Bethea — Aiko Bethea, aikobethea.com Dare to Lead Hub — Brené Brown, brenebrown.com Audre Lorde — Mariana Brandman, 2021, National Women's History Museum bell hooks — Asami Robledo-Allen Yamamoto, 2025, National Women's History Museum RARE Coaching | Aiko Bethea (@rare_coach) — Aiko Bethea, n.d., Instagram Psychological Safety and Learning Behavior in Work Teams — Amy Edmondson, 1999, Administrative Science Quarterly This Is Our Reminder of What Courageous Leadership Looks Like — Brené Brown, 2026, LinkedIn One of the Greatest Joys of My Career Has Been… — Brené Brown, 2026, LinkedIn Futurist Amy Webb on What's Coming (and What's Here) — Brené Brown, 2024, Dare to Lead podcast Brené with Aiko Bethea on Inclusivity at Work: The Heart of Hard Conversations — Brené Brown, 2020, Dare to Lead podcast Rising Strong — Brené Brown, 2015, Random House Feeling Powerless at Work? Here's Where Your Agency Still Lives — Jessi Hempel, 2026, Hello Monday with Jessi Hempel Without Accountability, Just Throw It All Away — Aiko Bethea, 2023, LinkedIn (Street Lights newsletter) Post on Learning and Development (#learninganddevelopment) — Aiko Bethea, 2026, LinkedIn Dare to Lead — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House Stop Outsourcing Your Judgment: Brené Brown in Conversation with Leadership Coach Aiko Bethea — Brené Brown, 2026, Fast Company Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
July 16 · 38 min
You Don't Get an A for Effort
Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. Brené and Adam unpack the difference between effort and excellence, why coaching matters more than judgment, and how unclear priorities can quietly derail even the hardest-working teams. From there the conversation moves further into prioritization, a consequential 2x2 decision-making framework, and how leaders inadvertently signal the wrong priorities through their emotional reactions. Circling back to effort, they also discuss why the first question leaders should ask when results fall short is whether they set their team up for success in the first place. Plus, Brené has a real-time realization that her own team may not be aligned on what's actually consequential. Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know – Adam Grant, 2021, Viking Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House No, You Don't Get an A for Effort – Adam Grant, 2024, The New York Times Mindset: The New Psychology of Success – Carol Dweck, 2006, Random House Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation and Performance – Mueller & Dweck, 1998, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology What Having a “Growth Mindset” Actually Means – Carol Dweck, 2016, Harvard Business Review “Both/And” Leadership – Wendy Smith, 2016, Harvard Business Review Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., JimCollins.com Reversible and Irreversible Decisions – Shane Parrish, n.d., Farnam Street The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You – Elaine Aron, 1996, Broadway Books Sensory-Processing Sensitivity and Its Relation to Introversion and Emotionality – Elaine Aron, 1997, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Above/Below the Line Practice – Brené Brown, 2025, BrenéBrown.com Fairy Tales and Script Drama Analysis – Stephen Karpman, 1968, Transactional Analysis Bulletin (Origin paper for the villain/rescuer/victim model of conflict) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
July 9 · 37 min
Time Scarcity and Pocket Presence
Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. The conversation opens on time scarcity, the devaluation of future time, and whether hope is actually a strategy. From there they discuss how great leaders don't need all the right answers (just the right questions) and the difference between executive presence and pocket presence. While digging into how the five C's of delegation build the situational awareness and critical thinking that pocket presence requires, Adam has a breakthrough realization that pocket presence isn't just an individual skill, it's a collective capability. Executive presence, they agree, is "party of one." Resource Slack and Propensity to Discount Delayed Investments of Time Versus Money – Gal Zauberman, 2004, Journal of Experimental Psychology Time for Happiness – Ashley Whillans, 2019, Harvard Business Review Can We Afford to be Time Poor? The Hidden Tax of Time Poverty – Celestine Rosales, 2024, The Decision Lab The Will and the Ways – C. R. Snyder, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Hope Theory: Rainbows in the Mind – C. R. Snyder, 2002, Psychological Inquiry Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, The Quarterly Journal of Economics Some Empirical Evidence on Dynamic Inconsistency – Richard Thaler, 1981, Economics Letters Future Self-Continuity: How Conceptions of the Future Self Transform Intertemporal Choice – Hal Hershfield, 2011, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences The stranger within: Connecting with our future selves – Cynthia Lee April 9, 2015, UCLA Newsroom We normally think of a weakness as a strength you lack, but it can also be a strength you overuse – Adam Grant, July 10, 2018, LinkedIn Stop Overdoing Your Strengths – Robert Kaplan, 2009, Harvard Business Review Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Research: Vague Feedback Is Holding Women Back – Shelley Correll, 2016, Harvard Business Review The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, 2024, Harvard Business Review Pocket Presence (Video) – Emmanuel Acho, n.d., TikTok Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry – Flavell, 1979, American Psychologist Essential social work theories & models – Syracuse University, n.d., OnlineGrad@Syracuse The 5 Cs of strategic thinking, decision making, and delegating – Brené Brown, n.d., brenebrown.com Atomic Habits – James Clear, 2018, Avery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
July 2 · 42 min
Sports as Leadership Theater and Recognizing Near Enemies
Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. They dig into the Buddhist concept of near and far enemies- and why the biggest threat to your values isn't the opposite of them, it's what masquerades as them. From there they move into discussion around the value of paradoxical thinking, why some tensions aren't meant to be resolved, and why sports are leadership theater. Plus a conversation about why future time is always undervalued. Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House The Near Enemies of the Heart – Jack Kornfield, n.d., jackkornfield.com Almost Everything: Notes on Hope – Anne Lamott, 2018, Riverhead Books (Chapter 2: “Inside Job”) 12 truths I learned from life and writing – Anne Lamott, July 13, 2017, TED (Video) Anne Lamott's thoughts on love, writing, and being judgy – Adam Grant (Host), April 16, 2024, ReThinking with Adam Grant, TED Audio Collective Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., jimcollins.com Exploration and Exploitation in Organizational Learning – James G. March, 1991, Organization Science Putting Feelings Into Words – Lieberman et al., 2007, Psychological Science How to Tame Reactive Emotions by Naming Them – Mitch Abblett, 2022, Psychology Today Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule – Paul Graham, 2009, paulgraham.com The Tush Push Explained – Kyle Brandt & Dr Neil DeGrasse Tyson, 2024, NFL (Video) Togethxr’s ‘Everyone Watches Women’s Sports’ T-shirts go viral – Callie Holtermann, June 28, 2024. The New York Times Dr. Linda Hill on leading with purpose in the digital age – Brené Brown (Host), April 18, 2022, In Dare to Lead, Vox Media The Pre-Mortem Method – Gary Klein, 2021, Psychology Today Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, Quarterly Journal of Economics (PDF) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
June 25 · 44 min
Courageous Leadership as a Daily Practice
In this Re:Thinking podcast episode recorded at Authors@Wharton, Brené joined Adam to dig into her book, Strong Ground. They explore why courage now has to mean being a learner instead of a knower, and why values aren't just what you care about-- they're what you sacrifice for. The conversation moves through the four skill sets of courage, why a value that isn't operationalized into behavior is just a poster with an eagle on it, and how to use the "story I'm making up" framework for hard conversations. They also get into executive presence, vulnerability, care, and why fake courage is easy to spot. Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Research – Brené Brown (n.d.). The discovery of grounded theory – Glaser & Strauss, 1967, Aldine Awareness of dying – Glaser & Strauss, 1965, Aldine De-tabooing dying control – Thulesius et al., 2013, BMC Palliative Care Never Split The Difference – Chris Voss, May 24, 2016, TEDx University of Nevada Expectancy Theory (Victor Vroom) – The Decision Lab, (n.d.) Dare to lead: List of values – Brené Brown, 2018 Dare to Lead Hub – Brené Brown Brené Brown brings Dare to Lead program to UT – University of Texas at Austin, 2020, UT News Neural processing of narratives – Jääskeläinen et al., 2020, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Jan-Feb 2024, Harvard Business Review The Gifts of Imperfection - Your Guide to a Wholehearted Life: 10th Anniversary Collection – Brené Brown, 2010 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
June 18 · 1 hr 21 min
The Highest Performance Strategy is Caring About People ft. Simon Sinek
In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant sit down with their first-ever guest, Simon Sinek. Together, they explore the state of organizations globally, including the chaos hitting C-suites, the human cost of misaligned incentives, AI-driven layoffs, and leaders playing defense when they should be playing offense. They dig into what makes teams high-performing, why caring deeply about the people you lead isn't soft but essential, and what the military's culture of love and loyalty teaches us about business. The conversation also moves through nervous system regulation, shame and guilt in parenting and leadership, and what AI can or cannot replace about human connection. This episode is a reminder that the things we've been told to leave out of business, such as love, care, and human connection, may be the most important things we can bring to it. The Old Order Is Dead. Do Not Resuscitate — Sven Beckert, November 4, 2025, The New York Times A Friedman Doctrine — Milton Friedman, September 13, 1970, The New York Times Magazine The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America—and How to Undo His Legacy — David Gelles, 2022, Simon & Schuster ‘Take a simple idea and take it seriously’: Charlie Munger in his own words — Financial Times Jack Dorsey Blamed AI for 4,000 Layoffs. A Former Block Exec Says That’s Not the Real Story — Leila Sheridan, 2026, Inc. Brené Brown on values, vulnerability, and playing to win — Adam Grant, December 22, 2025, Knowledge at Wharton (Interview) Threat-Rigidity Effects in Organizational Behavior: A Multilevel Analysis — Barry M. Staw, 1981, Administrative Science Quarterly Finding our strong ground, part 1 of 6 [w guest Adam Grant] — Brené Brown, September 17, 2025, In Dare to Lead. Vox Media Podcast Network Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action — Simon Sinek, 2009, Portfolio/Penguin The mental game of tennis: A scoping review and the introduction of the Resilience Racket Model — Konstantinou, G et al., 2025, Sports The Inner Game of Tennis — W. Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Random House Suppose We Took Groups Seriously… — Harold J. Leavitt, 1975, in Man and Work in Society Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t — Simon Sinek, 2014, Portfolio/Penguin Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization — Peter M. Senge, 1990, Doubleday/Currency Developing Brave Leaders and Courageous Cultures — Brené Brown, Dare to Lead hub The Infinite Game — Simon Sinek, 2019, Portfolio/Penguin Brené Brown: Focus on guilt instead of shame — 60 Minutes, March 29, 2020, YouTube Children’s Proneness to Shame and Guilt Predict Risky and Illegal Behaviors in Young Adulthood — Jeffrey Stuewig (lead), 2015, Child Psychiatry and Human Development The Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe — Samuel P. Oliner & Pearl M. Oliner, 1988, Free Press The Toxic Handler: Organizational Hero—and Casualty — Frost & Robinson, 1999, Harvard Business Review Jensen Huang Says an Incorrect Nine-Year-Old Prediction About AI Shows Why It Won’t Destroy Jobs — CNBC, 2025, CNBC Relational Job Design and the Motivation to Make a Prosocial Difference — Adam M. Grant, 2007, Academy of Management Review Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
June 11 · 1 hr 23 min
AI, Commencement Speeches, and Why Human Thinking Still Matters | The Curiosity Shop
In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant use this year’s booed commencement speeches as a launching pad to explore the role of AI in our lives. They dig into what some of those commencement addresses were missing: moral imagination, emotional honesty, and real empathy for the graduates. Brené introduces the concept of being “smitten with what’s written,” the trap of polished AI output that looks good but fails to move anything forward, and unpacks why writing is a tool for thinking, not just communicating. Adam proposes that signing your name on AI-generated content is an integrity violation, and together they work through how to give feedback, set expectations, and stay human in the middle of a technological transformation. Show Notes: George Saunders Reflects on his Famous Convocation Address at Syracuse University (2013) - George Saunders, 2023, Syracuse University College of Arts and Sciences Values and Messages Conveyed in College Commencement Speeches - Jenifer Partch & Richard Kinnier, 2011, Current Psychology Don’t Be Afraid to Fall - Brené Brown, 2020 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address) Make Your Bed – Admiral William H. McRaven, 2014 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address) Through Disappointment You Can Gain Clarity - Conan O'Brien, 2011, Dartmouth College (Commencement Address ) Be True to Yourself - Ellen DeGeneres, 2009 Tulane University (Commencement Address)) The Importance of Kindness - Steve Carell, 2025 Northwestern University (Commencement Address) Make Failure Your Fuel - Abby Wambach, 2018 Barnard College (Commencement Address) Wolfpack: How to Come Together, Unleash Our Power, and Change the Game – Abby Wambach, 2019, Celadon Books 2026 graduates boo commencement speeches on AI - Eric Schmidt (Former Google CEO) University of Arizona; Gloria Caulfield (Real estate executive) University of Central Florida: Scott Borchetta (Big Machine Records CEO) Middle Tennessee State University, May 2026, PBS NewsHour Exploring the Paradoxes of Human Nature: The Stockdale Paradox Explained, Brené Brown and Adam Grant, May 28, 2026, The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House A Whole New Mind – Daniel Pink, 2005, Riverhead Books (source of 'Symphony') AI-Generated “Workslop” Is Destroying Productivity – Kate Niederhoffer et al. (BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab), 2025, Harvard Business Review The Biggest Tell That Something Was Written by AI – Eve Fairbanks, 2026, The Atlantic Quote Origin: I Do Not Know What I Think Until I Read What I’m Writing - Quoteresearch, 2023, Quote Investigator Dare to lead glossary: Key language, skills, tools, and practices (including “Paint Done”) - Brené Brown, Pilots and Passengers – BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab 2025, BetterUp The Ghost in the Machine’s Memory: A Teacher’s Lament - Hudson Mathew, 2026, AI & Society (A Socrates warning, voiced by Plato) The Enhanced Games – inaugural event May 24, 2026, Las Vegas (founder Aron D'Souza; doping-permitted competition) Atlas of AI – Kate Crawford, 2021, Yale University Press Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
June 4 · 1 hr 9 min
Why Toughness and Kindness Need Each Other | The Curiosity Shop
In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant explore what happens when trust, vulnerability, grief, and performance collide. Using insights from the San Antonio Spurs and Gregg Popovich's leadership philosophy, they examine why caring deeply is an act of courage, how shame quietly undermines teams, families, and organizations, and how psychological safety fuels excellence. The conversation moves through ambition and rejection, miscarriage and loss, community, emotional intelligence and empathy, and the ways people show up for one another through life's hardest moments. This episode explores how strength and kindness are not opposites and why building cultures of trust may be one of the most important things we do. Victor Wembanyama on having Spurs legend David Robinson and Tim Duncan in the building - 2026, Yahoo Sports Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast) Victor Wembanyama Emotional After Spurs Advance to the NBA Finals - 2026, Bleacher Report Goals research summary - Gail Matthews, 2015, Dominican University of California Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, Gotham Books Ring Theory Helps Us Bring Comfort In - Elena Sandler, 2025, Psychology Today Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book) U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy & Adam Grant on Loneliness - Murthy & Grant, Authors@Wharton, 2024, YouTube Andrew Garfield on grief and the loss of his mother – CBS, 2021, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert National Survey of Gun Policy - Center for Gun Violence Solutions, 2025, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Empathic Joy and the Empathy-Altruism Hypothesis - Batson et al, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1992-05357-001 Human empathy through the lens of social neuroscience - Decety & Lamm, 2006, The Scientific World Journal The Making of an American – Jacob Riis, 1901, Macmillan The Coach–Athlete Relationship Questionnaire (CART-Q) – Sophia Jowett, 2004, Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports Bad Is Stronger Than Good – Roy Baumeister, 2001, Review of General Psychology Scarred for the Rest of My Career? – Erica Carleton (with Julian Barling), 2016, Journal of Sport and Exercise Psychology The evolution of shame and its display - Landers & Sznycer, 2022, Evolutionary human sciences Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior – June Tangney, 2007, Annual Review of Psychology The Inside Story of the Ever-Changing Brain - Brené Brown and David Eagleman, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast Unlocking the Mysteries of our Brain - Chris Anderson with David Eagleman, 2022, The TED Interview Winning coaches’ locker room secret - Blanding on the research of Barry Staw, 2019, UC Berkeley Haas School of Business Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
May 28 · 1 hr 17 min
Exploring the Paradoxes of Human Nature
In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant unpack the paradoxes that shape our lives, relationships, leadership, and decision-making. They explore the Abilene Paradox, the Stockdale Paradox, why groups often make decisions nobody actually wants, and how people balance gritty facts with gritty faith. The conversation moves through spirituality, teamwork, family dynamics, optimism, creativity, and even unexpected debates about Twilight and Pitch Perfect. Funny, thoughtful, and deeply human, this episode examines why two opposite truths can exist at the same time and why learning to live inside that tension may be one of the most important skills we have. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 00:00 Intro: Paradoxes, Dad Jokes & Big Questions 04:20 What Is a Paradox? 10:15 The Grace Paradox 19:02 The Abilene Paradox 27:04 How to Avoid the Abilene Paradox 30:45 Guilty Pleasures: Twilight, Pitch Perfect & Eurovision 38:38 Aesthetic Chills & The Big Five 43:08 The Stockdale Paradox Explained 46:48 Gritty Facts vs. Gritty Faith 49:47 Why Leaders Need Paradoxical Thinking 51:04 MLK’s “I Have a Dream” Speech 55:39 Candor Over Consensus 57:32 Comfort vs. Courage 1:02:06 Jim Collins & The Genius of the And 1:06:48 Harvard's Anti-Grade Inflation Policy 1:09:21 How Brené Grades Group Projects 1:13:19 Building the Muscle to Hold Paradox 1:14:54 Personal Paradoxes & The Grace of Getting It Wrong Lump - Allison Sweet Grant, September 2026, Little, Brown and Co. (Forthcoming book) Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems - Smith & Lewis, 2022, Harvard Business Review Press (Book) Toward A Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing - Smith & Lewis, 2011, Academy of Management Review Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World - Adam Grant, October 2026, Vking (Forthcoming book) Holding the Tension, The Wisdom of Paradox - Adapted, 2024, from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, 2009, Center for Action and Contemplation, Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House SmartLess (Guest: Stephen Colbert) - Arnett, Bateman & Hayes, SiriusXM/Wondery (Podcast) The Abilene Paradox: The Management of Agreement - Harvey, 1974, Organizational Dynamics Eurovision Song-Along: Story of Fire Saga: "Song-Along" - Dobking, D. (Director), 2020, Netflix (Movie clip) Grease: "You're The One That I Want" - Kleiser, R. (Director) 1978, Paramount Pictures (Movie clip) Brain Connectivity Reflects Human Aesthetic Responses to Music - Sachs, Ellis, Schlaug & Loui, 2016, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience Aesthetic Chills as a Universal Marker of Openness to Experience - McCrae, 2007, Motivation and Emotion The Stockdale Paradox - Jim Collins, 2017, jimcollins.com Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't - Jim Collins, 2001, HarperBusiness (Book) Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts - Brené Brown, 2018, Random House (Book) The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research - Barney Glaser and Anselm Strauss, 1967, Aldine (Book) It's 2020, Stop Saying 'Negative Nancy' - Sexist colloquialisms to avoid - Eskreis-Winkler, 2020, An Injustice! (Magazine) https://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2008/07/nervous-nellie-was-not-a-woman/ The Will and the Ways: Development and Validation of an Individual-Differences Measure of Hope - Snyder et al., 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology An analysis of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" public speech - Duarte, 2011 BE 2.0 (Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0): Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company - Collins and Lazier, 2020, Portfolio/Penguin (Book) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
May 21 · 1 hr 2 min
Sober AF, Michael Scott Phobia, and How to Politely End a Conversation
Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can’t tolerate the cringe of The Office —and Adam’s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great! You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today? 5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety 16:30 - Grieving for Joy 28:22 - Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office? 43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules 49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully 1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit 1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996) The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast) Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book) Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series) Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series) Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book) Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
May 14 · 1 hr 1 min
Are You a Preacher, Prosecutor, Scientist, or Politician?
Do you find yourself defaulting to “Preacher” mode when you’re under pressure, or starting to act like a “Prosecutor” when someone challenges your ideas? Brené and Adam unpack four mental modes – Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, and Scientist – to explore why we often cling to being right rather than getting it right. In this episode, they discuss how these defensive stances are shaping our response to AI, Brené’s “bounce” method for emotional hypothesis-testing, Adam’s go-to “strategy of small losses,” and ways to stay curious when the stakes are high. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Emoting 3:00 - Thinking Under Thread 11:00 - Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments 22:30 - The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast 27:15 - Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician 33:57 - When Opinions Become Beliefs 42:48 - The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds 51:30 - A Missing Mental Model: Teacher 59:30 - Wrap up Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book Eric Ries on ‘The Lean Startup’ - Eric Ries, 2011, Knowledge at Wharton Learning Through Failure: The Strategy of Small Losses - Sitkin, 1992, Research in Organizational Behavior Affective Forecasting - Wilson & Gilbert, 2003, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book) The Science of the Deal - Adam Grant, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2011, TED The Surprising Habits of Original Thinkers - Adam Grant, 2016, TED Beliefs Are Like Possessions - Abelson, 2007, Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour We Need to Talk about Astrology - Adam Grant, 2024, Substack The Diplomat - Cahn et al., 2023-present, Let's Not Turn This Into a Whole Big Production & Well Red, Netflix (TV series) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
May 7 · 1 hr 8 min
BS Disclaimers, Invisible Armies, and the Importance of the Words We Choose
Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction 1:10 - The Invisible Army 15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus 21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability? 40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability 46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity 1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast) Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series) Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? - Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
April 30 · 49 min
What the Return-to-Office Debate Gets Wrong
In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?” They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 1:49 - Return to Office 22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model 34:15 - Birth Order 40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077 https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/ https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401 https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/ https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000 https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866 https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
April 23 · 59 min
The Emotion Few Talk About, But Many Feel
From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). Chapter Titles + Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame 8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation 14:04 - What Is Humiliation? 18:30 - Why Don’t People Outgrow Shame? 29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame? 38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame 42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome? 50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg) Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self‑conscious emotions: Theory and research Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & Development Shame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It’s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik) Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths) Listening to shame, Brené Brown, 2012, TED The Power of Vulnerability, Brené Brown, 2011, TED Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
April 16 · 1 hr 8 min
Uncertainty is Not the Enemy
Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions 3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal 13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships? 22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair 32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders? 40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty 52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty 59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty 1:05:00 - Closing Show Notes: Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study) The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States - Albert Hirschman,1970, Book The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
April 9 · 59 min
Overconfidence and the Art of Knowing Yourself
What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning–Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we’re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how “I’ve got this” energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way. You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube⁠ and Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introductions 3:45 - Eileen Gu’s Metacognition 12:22 - What is Metacognition? 25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger? 38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy 44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts 58:17 - Wrap up Shownotes: I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979 Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023, Re:Thinking with Adam Grant The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018 The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018 Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book Charlotte Harpur and Eileen Gu, Final Press Conference, 2026 Winter Olympics, Milano, Italy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
April 2 · 1 hr 2 min
Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership
This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego. You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders 12:21 - Shame-Based Fear 18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong? 19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader 26:00 - Mission Over Ego 29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss 39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism 47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement 1:02:20 - Closing Show Notes: Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025. O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021. Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16) Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame) Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022 We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013 Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance) How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25) Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
March 26 · 1 hr 10 min
How This Podcast Could Fail
Brené and Adam have a bracingly honest conversation about what could go wrong in their collaboration, and how to set new teams, partnerships, and friendships up for success. They discuss the science of avoiding failure and building alignment, and practical strategies for navigating differences—including their own clashing instincts around minimalism vs. maximalism and sarcasm vs. trashtalk. The episode closes with what each of them is listening to, watching, and reading right now. You can also find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 00:00 - How Brené Inadvertently Launched Adam into Podcasting 02:57 - Interpreting Sarcasm 16:08 - How to Prevent Failure 28:57 - How Could This Partnership Could Go Wrong 38:42 - Learning From Differences 52:05 - How to Align Teams 1:02:00 - Closing Questions Show Notes: Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On - The Curiosity Shop Episode 1 Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown 2016 LinkedIn How to Love Criticism - Adam Grant 2018 WorkLife with Adam Grant Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective Hypervigilance in Mary Poppins (1964) The art and science of trash talk with Rafi Kohan - Adam Grant 2024 Work Life With Adam Grant Performing a Project Premortem - Gary Klein 2007 HBR Evaluating the Effectiveness of the PreMortem Technique on Plan Confidence - Veinot, Klein, & Wiggins 2010 ISCRAM Conference The Economics of Gender Differences in Employment Outcomes in Academia - Donna Ginther 2006 National Library of Medicine Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System - Donnella Meadows 1999 The Donella Meadows Project Academy for Systems Change Narcissists: Are We Surrounded? On Science Vs: - Wendy Zukerman 2024 Science VS Podcast Human Raised: Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, & Lifelong Learning in the Age - Dana Suskind, MD 2026 Book The Killing Stones A Detective Jimmy Perez Novel - Ann Cleeves 2025 Book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices