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Notice That

Jen Savage and Bridger Falkenstien

An EMDR Podcast

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  • 27 episodes
  • Avg 48 min
  • English

Episodes 27

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  • #158
    April 23 · 1 hr

    Attachment-Focused EMDR with Deb Wesselmann: Children, Families & Trauma Recovery

    In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we sit down with internationally respected clinician, trainer, and author Deb Wesselmann to explore the powerful intersection of EMDR therapy, attachment wounds, childhood trauma, parenting, and relational healing. Deb shares her decades of experience integrating attachment theory with EMDR therapy, including practical ways therapists can work with children, parents, families, and adults carrying unresolved developmental trauma. We discuss: Why attachment trauma often lives beneath symptoms How EMDR can help heal early relational wounds Working with children using EMDR Family therapy + EMDR integration Resourcing trust, safety, and connection Parents as part of the healing process Parts work / ego states in EMDR How therapists become corrective emotional experiences Why the therapeutic relationship still matters deeply in trauma work Deb also shares stories from training with Francine Shapiro in the early days of EMDR and how the field has evolved over time. If you're an EMDR therapist, trauma therapist, counselor, psychologist, or simply fascinated by healing relationships, this conversation is packed with wisdom. Learn more about Deb Wesselmann through her website: https://debrawesselmann.com/ Learn more about training and professional development opportunities with Beyond Healing through our website: connectbeyondhealing.com DETAILED SHOW NOTES Introduction Bridger and Jen open the episode by discussing their upcoming EMDR Basic Trainings, hybrid learning model, consultation opportunities, and their emphasis on relationship-centered EMDR training. Meet Deb Wesselmann Deb shares her background as: Former school teacher Therapist for 35+ years EMDR clinician since the mid-1990s Co-founder of the Attachment and Trauma Center in Nebraska Longtime specialist in attachment, trauma, adoption, children, and family healing Her journey into therapy began through witnessing the unmet emotional needs of children in school settings. Early EMDR with Francine Shapiro Deb reflects on training directly with Francine Shapiro when EMDR was still considered “experimental.” She discusses: Why she was initially skeptical Her powerful practicum experience How EMDR differed from hypnosis Why EMDR felt safer, gentler, and more effective for trauma treatment Why Attachment and EMDR Fit So Well Deb explains how EMDR naturally supports attachment healing because it helps process: mistrust abandonment wounds relational fear unresolved grief abuse memories developmental trauma She emphasizes that attachment styles are shaped through experience—not fixed identity. What Didn’t Happen Matters Too One of the most powerful moments of the episode: Healing is not only about processing what happened to clients... It is also about grieving and repairing what never happened: protection soothing attunement nurture safety emotional co-regulation Parts Work / Ego States in EMDR Deb and the hosts discuss: ego states parts language multiplicity of self internalized child parts wounded protector parts They explore how parts work deepens EMDR treatment, especially with complex trauma. Deb’s Integrative Family EMDR Model Deb outlines her step-by-step model for working with children and families: Phase 1: Parent psychoeducation and case conceptualization Helping parents understand: “This is not a bad child.” “This is a wounded child in survival mode.” Phase 2: Family preparation and regulation work Including: body regulation exercises window of tolerance education playful nervous system work emotional literacy Phase 3: Attachment-focused EMDR resourcing Examples: parent-child connection exercises messages of love soothing touch bilateral stimulation paired with relational safety healing the “little one inside” When Parents Are the Barrier Deb speaks honestly about difficult cases where caregivers are emotionally unsafe, resistant, or abusive. The hosts discuss how therapists may need to pivot toward: supporting the child directly grief work coping strategies becoming a safe relational template The Therapist as Attachment Resource A major theme of the conversation: The therapeutic relationship itself becomes healing data. Bridger discusses inviting clients to: “Take my voice with you.” Meaning: internalize compassion remember safety borrow regulation carry supportive relational memory into distress This is a beautiful section for therapists working with complex trauma. Why This Episode Matters This conversation reminds us that EMDR is not merely protocol. It is also: relational developmental embodied attachment-informed deeply human See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #157
    April 3 · 1 hr 1 min

    "Cognitive" Interweaves in EMDR: From Scripts to Relational Process

    In this return to our Back to Basics series, we’re diving into one of the most misunderstood—and often over-scripted—parts of EMDR therapy: interweaves. If you were trained to think of interweaves as something you “pull out of a list” when a client gets stuck, you’re not alone. But what if interweaves aren’t about saying the right thing… and instead about understanding what the system needs next? In this episode, we explore: What interweaves are actually doing in the brain and nervous system Why “cognitive interweaves” are only part of the story How stuckness in EMDR often reflects deeper relational and developmental patterns The difference between interrupting processing vs. supporting movement How to move from rigid scripts to relational, somatic, and intuitive interweaves Why some interweaves increase distress—and why that’s not a failure We walk through core categories from Francine Shapiro's EMDR: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (responsibility, safety, and choice), while also expanding into a more integrative framework that includes: Somatic interweaves Affective interweaves Relational and resource-based interweaves You’ll also hear real clinical reflections on: Why “I’m confused…” doesn’t always land How metaphor, imagery, and even humor can unlock stuck processing When to stay out of the way… and when your presence matters most Ultimately, this conversation reframes interweaves not as a technique—but as a relational intervention grounded in attunement, timing, and case conceptualization. If you’ve ever found yourself thinking: “What do I say right now?” This episode will help you shift toward: “What does my client’s system need right now?” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #156
    April 2 · 1 hr 5 min

    Can You Use EMDR During Pregnancy? Debunking the Biggest Myths with Beth Warren

    What happens when one of the most meaningful seasons of life—pregnancy and early parenthood—collides with trauma, grief, and attachment wounds? In this episode of Notice That, we sit down with perinatal mental health specialist Bethany Warren to explore how EMDR therapy can be used safely and effectively with pregnant and postpartum clients—and why so many clinicians have been taught otherwise. Together, we unpack: The most common myths about EMDR in pregnancy (and what the research actually says) Why “just resourcing” may unintentionally limit healing How attachment wounds, identity shifts, and grief show up in the perinatal period The difference between trauma and the deeper layers of loss How EMDR helps untangle both present-day distress and long-standing relational patterns We also explore the emotional reality of becoming a parent—the unexpected grief, the vulnerability of attachment, and the ways our own histories come alive in this stage of life. This conversation is both clinically rich and deeply human—an invitation to rethink how we approach trauma, healing, and development in one of the most transformative seasons of life. Whether you’re an EMDR clinician or simply someone navigating parenthood, this episode offers a powerful lens into what it means to heal while becoming. Connect with Bethany Warren: Website: https://bethanywarrenlcsw.com/ Perinatal EMDR Training (HAP): https://www.traumarecoveryhap.org/course/warren-perinatal-clients See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #155
    March 12 · 1 hr

    The Perinatal Window: Trauma, Matrescence, and EMDR with Dr. Nirit Gordon

    Becoming a parent is often described as one of life’s most joyful milestones. But what happens psychologically, relationally, and neurologically during the transition into parenthood is far more complex — and far less discussed — than many clinicians realize. In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger and Jen sit down with psychologist and EMDR consultant Dr. Nirit Gordon to explore the profound developmental, attachment-based, and trauma-related shifts that occur during the perinatal period. Drawing from feminist theory, attachment research, evolutionary anthropology, and clinical EMDR practice, this conversation reframes the transition to parenthood as a sensitive developmental stage comparable to adolescence — a time marked by identity reorganization, heightened emotional activation, relational stress, and the resurfacing of unresolved attachment wounds. Together, we explore: Why perinatal mental health is one of the most under-recognized areas in trauma treatment How attachment memories and developmental trauma networks reactivate during pregnancy and early parenting The concept of matrescence and its implications for case conceptualization Why fathers and partners undergo neurobiological and hormonal shifts during early parenting How modern parenting culture conflicts with evolutionary caregiving needs The myth of constant parental attunement and what attachment research actually shows Birth trauma and systemic gaps in trauma-informed obstetric care Using babies as resources in EMDR therapy The clinical importance of including perinatal experiences in Phase 1 history taking How therapists can support identity transformation during early parenthood This episode invites clinicians to expand their understanding of trauma, development, and relational memory — and to consider the perinatal period not simply as a life event, but as a critical neurobiological and psychological window for therapeutic intervention. Whether you work directly with parents or not, this conversation offers a powerful lens for understanding how attachment, trauma, and identity evolve across the lifespan. To follow Nirit's work, check out her website at niritgordonphd.com and her training offerings at touchstoneinstitute.org See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #154
    February 19 · 1 hr 3 min

    Collecting the Bones: Ego States, Self-Work, and the Therapist’s Inner World with Jessica Downs

    What happens when therapy stops being about techniques — and starts becoming about you? In this deeply reflective episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by therapist and trainer Jessica Downs for an intimate conversation exploring the inner life of therapists, professional identity, and the personal work that inevitably emerges beneath clinical practice. Together, they explore the hidden motivations that draw people into helping professions, the illusion of the “next training” as a solution to therapeutic stuckness, and the moment many therapists encounter when professional development turns into personal reckoning. This episode moves beyond theory into experience, as Jessica guides a live experiential exercise inviting listeners to connect with younger parts of themselves — demonstrating how EMDR principles, ego state work, and imagination can foster integration and self-compassion. Themes explored include: Why therapists often chase new modalities or trainings The relationship between burnout and unresolved inner dynamics Countertransference and the therapist’s personal history Ego states and parts work through an EMDR lens The role of suffering in human experience Individuation, identity, and professional evolution Healing as wholeness rather than symptom elimination This conversation is slower, more inward, and intentionally reflective — an invitation to pause, notice, and reconnect with the parts of yourself that brought you into this work in the first place. In This Episode, We Discuss The unconscious reasons therapists become therapists When “helping people” isn’t the whole story Capitalism, continuing education culture, and therapist insecurity Internal imagery and symbolic work in healing Parenting, therapy, and mirrors of the self Jessica’s “spotlighting” ego state exercise (follow along included) The La Loba myth and reclaiming lost parts of self About Our Guest — Jessica Downs Jessica Downs is a trauma therapist, EMDR clinician, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Her work integrates EMDR, ego state approaches, symbolism, and depth psychology to help therapists reconnect with authenticity and wholeness in both personal and professional development. Resources & Links Iris Training Collective Live Well Counseling Center (Grand Junction, CO) Notice That Podcast Beyond Healing trainings and consultation opportunities See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #153
    February 5 · 1 hr 5 min

    Fostering Resilience in EMDR: Neuroplasticity, Meaning, and Healing

    What if resilience isn’t about “bouncing back,” but about the brain’s ongoing ability to adapt—moment by moment, across a lifetime? In this episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by Laurel O’Neal Thornton, EMDR clinician, consultant, and educator, for a rich conversation on the neuroscience of resilience and what it actually looks like in EMDR therapy. Drawing from neuroscience, EMDR, and years of clinical experience, Laurel reframes resilience as an innate human capacity—one that exists even in the presence of trauma, depression, neurodivergence, and chronic stress. Together, we explore how shame disrupts resilience, why meaning-making matters, and how EMDR can foster regulation, integration, and adaptability without chasing perfection or symptom elimination. This episode is especially resonant for clinicians working with complex trauma, neurodivergent clients, chronic depression, or anyone feeling stuck in rigid models of “healing.” ✨ In This Episode, We Explore: Why resilience is adaptation, not toughness or “bouncing back” How EMDR naturally supports resilience through plasticity, regulation, and integration The role of shame as a major disruptor of innate resilience Why healing doesn’t mean never being triggered again How meaning, purpose, and relational connection show up in resilience research Working creatively within the EMDR protocol—especially Phase 2 and Phase 8 Supporting neurodivergent and highly intelligent clients in EMDR Why spontaneity, play, and pattern-breaking matter in therapy What it really means to “trust the brain” in EMDR 🧩 Key Takeaways for Clinicians Resilience exists before healing—and therapy helps clients reconnect to it EMDR doesn’t fix broken brains; it helps glitching systems reintegrate Decreasing shame may be one of the most powerful therapeutic interventions Creativity and flexibility are not deviations from EMDR—they’re part of its design Healing is about faster recognition, quicker recovery, and greater self-understanding 👩‍🏫 About Our Guest Laurel O’Neal Thornton is an EMDR clinician, consultant, educator, and practice owner who specializes in the neuroscience of trauma, resilience, and neurodivergence. She trains and consults clinicians internationally and is passionate about helping therapists integrate neuroscience in ways that are practical, humane, and deeply respectful of the client’s nervous system. Learn more about Laurel’s work at Whole Brain Solutions See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

  • #152
    January 29 · 57 min

    Sex Therapy Meets EMDR: Healing Shame, Reclaiming Pleasure, and Sexual Health with Cassie Krajewski

    In this episode of Notice That, we dive into one of the most avoided—and most essential—topics in mental health: sex, pleasure, and sexual health. We’re joined by Cassie Krajewski, LCSW, AASECT-certified sex therapist, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Cassie brings a deeply integrative lens to sexuality—one that moves far beyond technique and into conceptualization, embodiment, and healing. Together, we explore how sexual health is not a “specialty concern,” but a core dimension of human wellness—and how EMDR therapy offers a powerful, attuned framework for addressing sexual shame, desire, pleasure, and trauma. In this conversation, we explore: Why sexual health is a birthright, not a performance metric How culture, religion, and shame disrupt embodiment and desire The role of pleasure as a healing mechanism, not a reward Why many therapists avoid sex—and how that avoidance shows up clinically Integrating sex therapy principles into EMDR case conceptualization Creative and embodied resourcing for sexual trauma and low desire Consent, curiosity, and reclaiming agency in sexuality How therapists can reflect on their own relationship to sex and pleasure This episode is an invitation—to therapists and humans alike—to pause, notice, and gently question the stories we’ve inherited about sexuality… and to consider what healing might look like if pleasure were allowed back into the room. Free Resources on Cassie's website at inneratlastherapy.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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