Night Science

Itai Yanai & Martin Lercher

Where do ideas come from? In each episode, scientists Itai Yanai and Martin Lercher explore science's creative side with a leading colleague. New episodes come out every second Monday.

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20 episodes
Updated July 13

Episodes20

Newest first

87 | On the joys of being a young scientist
What can early-career scientists teach us about creativity? For this special episode, we talked to PhD students and postdocs about their creative processes. They told us about finding scientific ideas in art museums, sketching on whiteboards, borrowing concepts from other disciplines, going to unrelated seminars, swimming, hiking, talking in pubs, and deliberately letting ideas lie fallow like in a crop rotation system. Through this diversity, a few themes kept coming back: openness, play, visual thinking, talking, and incubation. This episode is also a reminder of something that is easy to forget amid the frustrations of academic life: science gives us the extraordinary freedom to think without bounds, ask questions, and spend our lives solving puzzles. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
July 13 · 38 min
86 | From punchlines to discovery – Sarah Adelman
What can comedy teach us about scientific discovery? With stand-up comedian and former research scientist Sarah Adelman, we discuss the surprising parallels between jokes and discoveries. Sarah shares her path from public health research to comedy, and we explore how the willingness to bomb on stage, searching for punchlines, and creating a playful “writer’s room” atmosphere have close analogies in the creative scientific process. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
June 22 · 48 min
85 | How laziness invites discovery – Robert Root-Bernstein
Professor Robert Root-Bernstein has not only made many scientific discoveries, but has also written extensively about the creative process, including in Sparks of Genius (with Michele Root-Bernstein) and in his latest book, The Arts of Eminent Scientists. Bob found that successful scientists do not treat their “lazy” creative pursuits, such as painting, music, or writing, as distractions from science, but integrate them into one coherent life. Among other things, we also explore problem finding and how artistic practices can sharpen observation and generate powerful analogies. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
June 8 · 39 min
84 | Every scientist is an artist – Lois Hetland
Professor Lois Hetland, the former chair of art education at the Massachusetts College of Art, joins us to ask: what do artists and scientists truly share? We explore the striking parallels between artistic practice and scientific discovery – between Night Science, the messy and playful mental state where ideas are formed, and her “Studio Habits of Mind”, such as observing closely, envisioning possibilities, and exploring at the edge of the unknown. We converge on a central point: how frustration and insecurity are inherent in the creative process wherever it unfolds. And Lois argues that we can cultivate creativity through the right environment, one that embraces experimentation, mistakes, and sustained engagement – the same topics that many of our scientist guests have brought up. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
April 13 · 40 min
83 | How science is secretly driven by analogy – Melanie Mitchell
Melanie Mitchell is a professor at the Santa Fe Institute and a leading thinker on artificial intelligence, analogy, and abstraction. She reflects on how analogy quietly drives creativity and scientific discovery even in the most rigorous fields. Analogies often emerge during moments of mental rest and don’t need to be accurate to nudge you into new avenues of thinking. We discuss how many core scientific concepts began as metaphors, how analogies can both illuminate and mislead, and whether large language models truly grasp abstraction. The conversation ranges from the role of analogies in Einstein’s thought process to evolutionary “landscapes” and the balance between generative night science and critical day science. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
February 16 · 33 min
82 | On being alone together – Amy Shyer & Alan Rodrigues
Amy Shyer & Alan Rodrigues co-direct the Laboratory of Morphogenesis at Rockefeller University. They are also married. Together, we reflect on what it means to think creatively in biology. Amy and Alan discuss the importance of challenging established frameworks, cultivating a “feeling for the organism,” and balancing conceptual imagination with close attention to observable phenomena. They are true science buddies, with their complementarity and partnership allowing them to challenge each other by diving deeper into the ambiguity and loneliness of research. Join our Train-the-Trainer Event to learn how to teach Night Science, April 24th at the New York Academy of Sciences! https://night-science.org/train-the-trainer-workshop/ The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
February 2 · 36 min
81 | How to find your way by getting lost – Marina Dubova
It’s surprising that for centuries, scientists have left the study of how to do science largely to non-scientists. Not anymore – thanks to the young field of cognitive epistemology. In this episode, we discuss the exciting – and surprising – science of doing science with Marina Dubova, a postdoc at the Santa Fe Institute and soon a professor at UC Berkeley. Marina found, for example, that to get the most powerful theories, you should not plan the collection of data with a view to falsify or validate existing hypotheses; instead, try to get as diverse a dataset as possible. It adds a new angle to an idea that we discussed in many previous episodes: that discoveries often arise from exploratory data collection. Based on Marina’s research and her own process, we also discuss how science thrives on diversity at all levels – data, ideas, questions, scientists – and on the use of analogies and metaphors. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
January 12 · 45 min
80 | Why greatness cannot be planned with Kenneth Stanley
Ken Stanley is a highly regarded researcher in machine learning and artificial intelligence. After leaving his professorship at the University of Central Florida, he cofounded Geometric Intelligence (now Uber AI Labs), and he is now Senior Vice President of Open-Endedness at LilaSciences. In this episode, Ken explains why ambitious objectives often backfire: the real stepping stones to breakthrough discoveries rarely look like progress toward the goal, so a direct pursuit can blind us to the opportunities that matter most. Together, we connect these ideas to night science, scientific intuition, and the pressure to justify research with hypotheses and deliverables, and we argue for a healthier system that funds exploration, curiosity, and the creation of new “playgrounds” for discovery. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
Dec 29, 2025 · 31 min
79 | Maria Leptin and creativity in grant writing
Maria Leptin is the President of the ERC, the European Research Council, and Professor of genetics at the University of Cologne. In this episode, Maria describes her own path as one driven by observation and curiosity rather than long-term planning, and discusses why small, intellectually vibrant institutes often outperform large labs. We discuss how funding agencies can better support bold ideas, and we explore how to evaluate creativity in grant proposals and why a focus on feasibility can stifle innovation. We also consider the role of grant writing in shaping ideas, the differences between academia and industry, and the importance of stable yet non-complacent careers. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .®
Dec 8, 2025 · 30 min
78 | Stephen Nachmanovitch on free play and chivalry
Stephen Nachmanovitch is a musician celebrated for his free improvisations, and an educator whose books Free Play and The Art of Is have become classics on the creative process. With his training as an ecologist and his PhD in the history of consciousness, Stephen brings a unique philosophical view on art, science, and life to the podcast. In our discussion, Stephen reflects on how creativity is not a thing but a living process: the art of IS. He draws connections between artistic and scientific practice, emphasizing how both depend on careful attention to the world, openness to mistakes, and dialogue across perspectives. We discuss how fear of error inhibits creativity, and how improvisation can free us from perfectionism. We also touch upon the importance of chivalry in dialogue, the art of advancing each other’s ideas rather than blocking them. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
Nov 10, 2025 · 38 min
77 | Akiko Iwasaki and the art of creativity maintenance
Akiko Iwasaki, a Yale professor and Howard Hughes Investigator, was named one of Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people in 2024. Together, we reflect on how diverse backgrounds enrich research, allowing people to discover different things in the same data. Akiko explains how leading large collaborations requires managing expectations, not micromanaging the research. She compares her work of studying complex conditions to solving multilayered puzzles: each new piece of evidence must be placed in the right layer for the bigger picture to emerge. And she jokes about her own “terrible hairball analogy” and how, at the center of that mess, she searches for hidden gems. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute. For more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
Sep 22, 2025 · 40 min
76 | Can Google’s Co-scientist project give scientists superpowers?
To answer this question, we speak with Dr. Alan Karthikesalingam and Vivek Natarajan from Google DeepMind about their groundbreaking AI co-scientist project. Beyond their work at Google, Alan is an honorary lecturer in vascular surgery at Imperial College London, and Vivek teaches at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Together, we discuss how their system has evolved to mirror parts of human hypothesis generation while also diverging in fascinating ways. We talk about its internal “tournaments” of ideas, its ability to be prompted to “think out of the box,” and whether it becomes too constrained by the need to align with every published “fact”. And we discuss how we still seem far away from a time when AI can not only answer our questions, but can ask new and exciting research questions itself. The Night Science Podcast is produced by the Night Science Institute – for more information on Night Science, visit night-science.org .
Sep 8, 2025 · 39 min
75 | Eve Marder and how Recipe Science ruins creativity
Professor Eve Marder is a pioneering neuroscientist at Brandeis University. Drawing on decades of work with a small neural circuit in lobsters, she describes how discovery often emerges from intuition, puzzlement, and the courage to follow unexpected observations. Eve highlights the central role of personal tolerance for ambiguity in shaping a scientist’s questions and methods. She discusses the fine line between idiosyncrasies and general principles, and how deep familiarity with the literature shaped her scientific intuition – something hard to replicate in today’s information-saturated world. We also discuss how reading is a prerequisite for clear writing, and how rigid publishing norms led to “recipe science”, suppressing creativity. For more information on Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
May 26, 2025 · 33 min
74 | Martin Schwartz and the importance of stupidity in science
Martin Schwartz, a professor at Yale, is known for his work on integrins and his influential essay “The importance of stupidity in scientific research”. He emphasizes that while learning science makes you feel smart, true scientific discovery often involves feeling stupid, because it means venturing into the unknown. We discuss how the ego can obstruct creativity, and how resilience, self-discovery, and the cultivation of "passionate indifference" – being deeply engaged but unattached to outcomes – are key to sustaining a productive and fulfilling life in science.
Apr 21, 2025 · 29 min
73 | Ethan Mollick and a million Einsteins in a server
With Ethan Mollick, professor at Wharton and author of the bestselling “Co-Intelligence”, we explore how generative AI tools like ChatGPT can enhance scientific creativity. Ethan emphasizes that AI excels at idea generation through sheer volume and recombination, outperforming most humans in many creativity tasks – though it does have odd obsessions with VR and crypto. However, AI is most effective when integrated into a collaborative human–machine workflow rather than used as a replacement. Ethan describes AI as your tireless science buddy that never gets bored or judgmental during brainstorming. We discuss how AI’s "hallucinations" can be used for creativity, how AI can bridge disciplines by revealing hidden connections across fields, and how prompting strategies – such as chain-of-thought or playful personas – can guide AI toward more original outputs. Ethan stresses the need for scientists to actively experiment with these tools, share their methods openly, and reconsider scientific workflows in light of rapid AI progress. For more information on Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Apr 7, 2025 · 38 min
72 | David Baker and the lab's communal brain
David Baker, who was awarded the 2024 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for designing novel proteins with AI, is a professor at the University of Washington. In this episode, he explains how he socially engineers his lab’s "communal brain", where all individuals function like neurons, densely interconnected to maximize idea generation. We explore the role of AI in science, discussing whether AI can be truly creative. Finally, we discuss the current funding crisis in science, which disproportionately affects young researchers. For more information about Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Mar 24, 2025 · 24 min
71 | Victor Ambros and the unique ways we perceive wonder
Victor Ambros, newly awarded the Nobel Prize for his discovery of microRNA, is a developmental biologist at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. In this episode, we explore improvisational science – the dynamic, collaborative process where researchers build on each other’s ideas using a "yes, and…" approach. We discuss the constant need to reframe and refine scientific questions, and the challenge of helping young researchers build the confidence to question established ideas. Victor underscores the power of curiosity-driven research, emphasizing how each scientist’s unique perspective can lead to discoveries others might miss. We also examine AI’s evolving role in scientific discovery – particularly in synthesizing knowledge across disciplines – and how it can complement the cross-pollination of ideas at scientific conferences. For more information about Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Mar 10, 2025 · 35 min
70 | Meghan O’Rourke on being the artist and their caretaker
Meghan O'Rourke, acclaimed author of The Invisible Kingdom, poet, and Yale professor, joins us to explore the parallels between creative writing and scientific discovery. She describes how deep immersion in a project attracts unexpected insights, and she introduces Night Poetry and Day Poetry, inspired by our concepts of Night Science and Day Science—where night represents raw creation and day embodies refinement. We discuss how scientists and writers face similar challenges: questioning assumptions, balancing structure with spontaneity, and finding meaning in unexpected connections. Through Meghan's insights, we discover how creativity manifests similarly across disciplines, and how being an outsider can often lead to fresh perspectives. For more information about Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Feb 17, 2025 · 45 min
69 | Keith Yamamoto and the freedom to fail
Keith Yamamoto, professor and science policy leader at UCSF, discusses with us how modern science became trapped in a system that discourages creative risk-taking. Keith contrasts academia's fear of failure with Silicon Valley's acceptance of it as just another day at the office. We also talk about Keith’s introduction of a new NIH grant category specifically for paradigm-challenging ideas, where he deliberately chose generalist reviewers rather than domain experts who might reject ideas threatening their own paradigms. For more information about Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Jan 27, 2025 · 40 min
68 | Peter Godfrey-Smith and middle class science
Peter Godfrey-Smith, a Professor of the Philosophy of Science at the University of Sydney, explores with us the differences between creativity in science and philosophy. While philosophers speculate unconstrainedly, scientists must balance creative thinking with the need for empirical testing and within our fields’ paradigms – if you mention the “Lamarck” word at a bar full of geneticists, don’t be surprised if the piano suddenly stops and everybody looks at you in disbelief. We also talk about Thomas Kuhn’s tension between normal and revolutionary science, the risks and rewards of disruptive ideas, and the importance of "middle-class science"—independent labs driving innovation. Peter ends by drawing a parallel between the night science / day science transition and Händel's aria "As Steals the Morn," which describes the transition from dream state to wakefulness. This episode was supported by Research Theory (researchtheory.org). For more information about Night Science, visit https://www.biomedcentral.com/collections/night-science .
Jan 14, 2025 · 33 min

Night Science

87 | On the joys of being a young scientist

86 | From punchlines to discovery – Sarah Adelman

85 | How laziness invites discovery – Robert Root-Bernstein

84 | Every scientist is an artist – Lois Hetland

83 | How science is secretly driven by analogy – Melanie Mitchell

82 | On being alone together – Amy Shyer & Alan Rodrigues

81 | How to find your way by getting lost – Marina Dubova

80 | Why greatness cannot be planned with Kenneth Stanley

79 | Maria Leptin and creativity in grant writing

78 | Stephen Nachmanovitch on free play and chivalry

77 | Akiko Iwasaki and the art of creativity maintenance

76 | Can Google’s Co-scientist project give scientists superpowers?

75 | Eve Marder and how Recipe Science ruins creativity

74 | Martin Schwartz and the importance of stupidity in science

73 | Ethan Mollick and a million Einsteins in a server

72 | David Baker and the lab's communal brain

71 | Victor Ambros and the unique ways we perceive wonder

70 | Meghan O’Rourke on being the artist and their caretaker

69 | Keith Yamamoto and the freedom to fail

68 | Peter Godfrey-Smith and middle class science