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Messy Social Work

Rich and Tim

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges.


Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work.


Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure.


Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships.


Because social work isn't neat.


It's messy.



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  • 25 episodes
  • weekly
  • Avg 1 hr
  • English

Episodes 25

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  • Friday · 59 min

    "I call her my second mum" The extraordinary relationship between care leaver Shakira and her Personal Advisor, Sarah.

    What difference can one consistent relationship make in a young person's life? In this moving and deeply honest episode, Rich and Tim are joined by care leaver Shakira Peart and her Personal Advisor Sarah Fisher. Together, they reflect on a seven-year relationship that has endured through trauma, loss, domestic abuse, homelessness, mental health challenges, parenting struggles, and ultimately, remarkable personal growth. Shakira speaks candidly about losing her mum at 14, living with undiagnosed autism, ADHD and bipolar disorder, surviving abusive relationships, and the painful experience of having her first two children removed from her care. She also shares how becoming a mother to her daughter Aurora, who has significant additional needs, has helped her make sense of her own experiences and find new strength and purpose. At the heart of the conversation is Sarah's unwavering presence. This episode shines a light on the vital role Personal Advisors play in the lives of care-experienced young people: offering consistency, hope, practical support, and a relationship that doesn't disappear when life gets messy. As Shakira prepares to graduate with a first-class Psychology degree, accompanied by the Personal Advisor she affectionately calls her "second mum", this is a powerful story about resilience, recovery, and the transformative impact of someone refusing to give up on you. Content note: This episode contains discussions about bereavement, domestic abuse, mental health difficulties, self-harm, trauma, and child removal.

  • September 11 · 1 hr 11 min

    What social workers get wrong in court: Insights from family barrister Gemma Chapman

    In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy. Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court. The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children. We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court. A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families. Key themes: Family justice and advocacy Giving evidence in court What makes an effective social worker Social Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs) Disclosure versus allegations Working alongside legal professionals Supporting children and families Learning from practice and experience Guest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

  • September 3 · 55 min

    Rich and Tim relational skills, networks, theory and leadership in Family Group Decision Making

    In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making. The conversation explores: The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety. The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections. The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture. Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities. Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice. Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

  • August 30 · 53 min

    Rich and Tim on Family Group Decision Making: Power, participation and family leadership

    In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today. Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities. The conversation explores: The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them. How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life. The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making. The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation. A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair. Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

  • August 19 · 1 hr 2 min

    Peter Block: relationships, resistance and the relevance of 'Flawless Consulting'

    Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services? In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract. Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change. Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published. Topics include: Contracting for real accountability Leading change without direct authority Working with resistance rather than against it Internal versus external consulting Avoiding the "expert" trap Moving from compliance to commitment Embedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-Making A conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

  • July 17 · 54 min

    Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • July 13 · 36 min

    Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection

    Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

  • July 7 · 42 min

    Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice

    In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

  • June 26 · 1 hr 15 min

    Ex-undercover police officer on why the war on drugs is failing

    In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here: https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods https://www.neilwoods.net/ His book is available online and on audible

  • June 19 · 1 hr 9 min

    Gareth K Thomas, foster carer, on trauma informed parenting

    In this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice. Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about how trauma shows up in behaviour, how carers can make sense of what they’re seeing, and the importance of staying curious, compassionate, and regulated in the face of difficult moments. The conversation also explores: What trauma-informed care looks like day-to-day The importance of relationships, trust, and consistency Supporting children without losing sight of yourself The wider system around foster care - what helps and what gets in the way As ever, this is a grounded and thoughtful discussion that keeps the focus on real-life practice, not theory alone. Gareth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethkthomas/ Gareth's website: https://garethkthomas.com/ https://www.clrfd.com/48/ Gareth's forthcoming book https://a-z-book.com/

  • June 12 · 1 hr 2 min

    Headlines from Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • May 22 · 56 min

    Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work

    In this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families. Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their families, especially in contexts of risk, conflict, and uncertainty. She speaks candidly about the emotional demands of the work — including doubt, moral distress, and the cases that stay with you — and how this can shape thinking and practice under pressure. We also discuss what helps her stay relational when things are tough, what sustains her in the role, and the moments that remind her why the work matters. An honest conversation about learning on the job, staying human, and the emotional weight of social work. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • May 15 · 1 hr 10 min

    Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies

    In this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed. Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Ofsted. We explore the personal toll of that experience and the powerful social and political forces that demand accountability in the wake of tragedy. Drawing on psychoanalytic and social theory, the conversation moves beyond headlines to examine how society processes—and often avoids—the reality of harm to children. We discuss the idea of social workers as “containers” for collective anxiety, the “pain of knowing” about abuse, and why narratives of professional failure can feel easier to accept than confronting human cruelty within families. We also interrogate the enduring legacy of the Baby P case: the rise of “never event” thinking, the political promise of certainty, and how fear has shaped systems that prioritise compliance over meaningful risk management. Along the way, Sharon challenges assumptions about gender and harm, reflects on what remains unlearned, and offers a clear-eyed perspective on leadership in conditions defined by uncertainty. This is a thoughtful, at times uncomfortable conversation about blame, denial, grief, and what it really means to safeguard children in a complex world. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • May 8 · 1 hr 22 min

    An introduction to Systemic Ideas in Social Work with student Natasha Dube and author Liz Bosanquet

    In this episode of the Messy Social Work podcast, we begin with a conversation with Natasha Dube, before Rich and Tim discuss Liz Bosanquet’s new book, Systemic Social Work Practice. The discussion explores how systemic ideas can move beyond theory and into everyday practice, helping practitioners think relationally about families, organisations and the wider systems shaping people’s lives. A conversation about curiosity, context, relationships and what systemic practice looks like in the reality of social work. Link to Book https://uk.jkp.com/products/systemic-social-work-practice Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • May 6 · 45 min

    BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss time management (Part 2)

    In this second bonus episode, Rich, Tim and Charlotte build directly on Part 1, turning their attention to the four remaining ideas from Rich’s blog on resilience in social work and exploring how these play out in practice. The conversation moves beyond individual productivity and into the ethical and emotional costs of working under sustained pressure. Drawing on Vikki Reynolds’ work, the episode explores burnout not as a personal failing, but as a response to spiritual pain, moral distress and ethical trespassing – the harm that occurs when social workers are repeatedly required to act against their values within constrained systems. Together, they reflect on how time pressure, risk management and organisational demands can quietly erode meaning, solidarity and hope, and why self‑care alone is never enough. Instead, the focus shifts to collective ethics, justice‑doing, and mutual accountability, asking what helps social workers remain human, connected and sustainable in the work. The episode closes with a reframing of resilience – not as coping better alone, but as finding ways to work in solidarity, uphold shared values, and resist the pull towards isolation, cynicism or burnout in systems that are often set up to make ethical practice hard. Vicki Reynolds: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Doing-Intersections-Power-Vikki-Reynolds/dp/0648154521/ref=asc_df_0648154521?mcid=4f50e58863e23cc9bff9cd708bb93084&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697323391178&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3967307359554161200&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006502&hvtargid=pla-716807874168&psc=1&hvocijid=3967307359554161200-0648154521-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1 Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • May 1 · 1 hr

    Time management ideas that DEFINITELY & FINALLY allow you to get on top of your work

    This episode explores time management as both a practical challenge and a lived experience in social work. Rich shares techniques such as Stephen Covey’s urgent and important quadrants, Cal Newport’s time blocking and the difference between deep and shallow work, while also being honest about how difficult these are to sustain in real practice. The conversation moves into presence, stress and pragmatism, recognising that social workers are often pulled between statutory timelines, emotional labour, family needs and constant interruptions. Tim brings in Barbara Adam’s work on time and temporality, alongside Shakespeare’s “time is out of joint”, to describe how stress can alter our experience of time. The episode ends with the idea that time management is not only about productivity, but about how we remain present, realistic and human in demanding systems. Drawing Futures Barbara Adam and Seth Oliver https://graffeg.com/products/drawing-futures?srsltid=AfmBOorYwNJGBZKMmdWO1VEy2_b7YP2ZiTSzlXNqHfxBM8byjHNQAJVb ............... Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  • April 27 · 46 min

    BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling (Part Two)

    This bonus episode picks up where the previous conversation left off. Rich and Tim return to six years of journals to explore the next three themes that emerged — the ones that didn’t fit neatly, resolve cleanly, or offer easy lessons. They begin with work and purpose, tracing how Rich’s journals reveal a constant back‑and‑forth: ambition and exhaustion, pride and resentment, meaning and burnout. They talk about the pressure to have impact, the cost of carrying work into every corner of life, and what it’s like to slowly admit that a role you can do well may no longer be one you want — or can — sustain. The conversation then shifts to habits, routines, and distraction. Rich reflects on years spent building systems to hold himself together — morning routines, fasting windows, time‑blocking, strict rules around focus — and how fragile those systems were in the face of poor sleep, stress, or emotional overload. Together they explore the pull of distraction, the fantasy that the “right” routine will finally work, and the fatigue that comes from constantly trying to out‑discipline your own mind. Finally, they turn to gratitude and meaning, and the complicated way both appear in the journals. Rather than gratitude as calm or resolved, Rich describes it as something tangled up with anxiety, guilt, fear of time passing, and the effort to notice life while struggling inside it. They talk about how meaning shows up not as insight or philosophy, but in ordinary, fleeting moments — often noticed only because they feel at risk of being lost. As with the first episode, this isn’t a story about transformation or self‑improvement. It’s about repetition, negotiation, softening, and the slow realism that comes from paying attention over time. A conversation about work that matters and costs something, habits that don’t hold, gratitude that isn’t peaceful, and the ongoing effort to live alongside yourself rather than fix yourself. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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