Duck Tales: 32% of AI users tell AI things they've kept from other people. Our new study on AI's privacy problem (Ep.42)
In this episode, Zac (SVP, User Insights) and Mario (Marketing) discuss our study on the AI privacy problem: from stats and surprises, to AI hot takes, and how DuckDuckGo can help. Show notes: Learn more about the study and our findings here If you have feedback on Duck Tales, or episode ideas, email us at podcast@duckduckgo.com. Disclaimers: (1) The audio, video (above), and transcript (below) are unedited and may contain minor inaccuracies or transcription errors. (2) This website is operated by Substack. This is their privacy policy. Mario: Okay, there we go. Hey everyone. Welcome to Duck Tales, where we go behind the scenes at DuckDuckGo and discuss the stories, the technology, and the people that help build the privacy tools for everyone. In each episode, you will hear from employees about our vision, product updates, engineering, marketing, but also our approach to AI. Today you’re going to hear about some brand new research, very fresh, that we ran about what Americans actually think about privacy and AI. And I’m here today with someone who happens to have the exact same haircut as me. And that means luscious locks, of course. Zac, do you want to introduce yourself? Zac: Yeah, hey everybody, I’m Zac Pappas, SVP of User Insights. I’ve been at DuckDuckGo for 14 wonderful years, and I’ll be talking to you about this study today. Mario: Wow, fourteen years. Yeah, we’re we’re very lucky to to have you here. you’ve been, you know, working in Insights for a long time. You’re one of the first, very first DuckDuckGo employees, is this correct? Yeah. Zac: Yeah, I think it was technically the second employee back when we were just a few people around the Paoli office here in Pennsylvania. So it’s yeah, it’s been a long fourteen years. but I think it’s been really exciting and things changed so so frequently that it doesn’t really feel like we’re doing the, you know, same insights or kind of same research over and over again. Mario: Yeah. Well that’s that that’s pretty good. But it’s also useful because it means you also have about as long as a view as anyone on how people feel and think about privacy, you know, what they want protected, what they say versus what they do. So I think this is gonna be an interesting conversation. And yeah, by the way, you’ve introduced yourself. I’ve been talking, I have been rude, I haven’t introduced myself. My name is Mario, I’m in the on the marketing team. I’ve been here for almost four years now. a fun fact about myself is that I like to tell people I once came in fourth in the Eurovision Song Contest. For those who don’t know, it’s like it’s big music kind of song festival and competition in Europe. So yeah, I like to say I once came in fourth, but kind of. So not exactly. And I’ll just leave it at that. what about you, Zac? Do you have any fun facts you want to share? Or obnoxious facts? Also loud. Zac: nothing that interesting or stand out. I guess y like most people, when I have the time I will go out to my garage, fire up the forge, and do a bit of blacksmithing. so pretty standard stuff. Mario: Wow, okay, that’s that’s quite cool. I mean, this is this is Duck Tales, not Zac Tales. If it was Zac Tales, I would ask you a lot more questions, maybe put in a request. So Zac: Next episode, yeah. Mario: yeah, next time. Okay, let’s let’s jump in. So we as a company and you particularly, since you’ve been here for so long, we’ve been studying how people think about privacy for close to, I know, in this case like 15 years or more. You know, what’s what’s new is doing that specifically for AI. in June, our user insights team surveyed 1944 US adults, all quota balanced to census on age, gender, region, et cetera, about their AI privacy concerns, what they know, what they don’t know, what they actually do about it. you’ll find the methodology on the show notes if you’re interested. And this is this is what we want to talk about today. So, Zac, let’s let’s start with the juicy stuff. To you, what was the most surprising thing in this study? Zac: I think given the fact that AI has been so pervasive and around for so long, most surprising thing was that I think forty-three percent of everyone knew none of six basic facts about how how AI chats are handled. So that includes a third of active AI users who can’t, you know, recall or kind of signal what basic data privacy and data handling practices that the AI services that they’re using are actually adherent to. Mario: Well— well, can you tell us a little more like what facts you’re talking about? Zac: Yeah, I actually wrote them down so I can get them correct for you. So the facts we asked people about were AI chats can be subpoenaed by courts and law enforcement. AI chats can be made public in a lawsuit. Employers can access work or enterprise AI accounts. Settings to delete or stop storage vary by provider. Free accounts often have weaker privacy than paid accounts, and humans can review your chats. Some of these maybe you would expect most people who haven’t dug too far into AI or privacy policies, they maybe wouldn’t think of those things first, but certainly human employees. Employees can review your chats. We’ve seen instances of this in the past with other companies in data collection when there’s a breach or when there’s a mishandling of data. Those are some pretty basic things that I would have assumed people at least had some suspicions about, but it’s surprising that they didn’t. Mario: Yeah, this is this is a little yeah, it was a little unexpected the the level of of at least to me, you know, listening to this. I I was looking like looking a little bit here at the at the details. Like I saw, for example, on the that the AI chats can be subpoenaed by the government, for example, which means they could then made accessible in public because there were a lot of news about this, about some cases about AI companies. It was about only twenty five percent of people knew this. So why do you think people don’t know these facts given it has been you know, so much on the news. I know this isn’t in the study, but just curious about what you would you Zac: Yeah, I I mean i it it’s definitely a different technology. I think it’s been a lot more opaque, the way that it’s been integrated and with the speed that it’s been rolled out, and the kind of the breadth that it’s been rolled out to most products that people are using. I think they get a different flavor and a different version of AI everywhere that they look with, you know, incomplete data practices, meaning they haven’t, you know, execute at the executive level, most companies haven’t really figured out how to deploy AI safely. So what they’re getting is say a rushed experience, but something that probably wasn’t built in the best interests of data privacy or kind of long-term sustainability in that regard. so here, yeah, it’s a it’s a maybe a combination of it being kind of a pervasive, like broad applic broad applied technology as well as how fast it has risen. and maybe my own personal experiences, there isn’t that that much useful information for a mainstream person, maybe who’s not a developer or a coder who’s you know gonna be really in the weeds of the technology. It’s kind of hard to find some of the better, you know, more mainstream or general approaches than how to use it safely. Mario: Yeah, yeah, I can s I can see that. Thanks for that. So yeah, we know what’s the most surprising thing about the study for you, but like asking the bigger question, like, are people worried about privacy in AI in the AI context? Zac: Yeah, absolutely. Seventy-five percent of people are worried about privacy when using AI. And that has been consistent for years as we’ve been running these studies. And we’ve seen this with external research as well. invasion of privacy, just the discomfort and uneasiness of using it and not knowing how the data’s being handled, and surveillance are usually around like 50% of what worries people the most when it comes to AI, and usually something privacy specific is in like the top two factors among those that are concerned about or like withholding use and not using it at all as a c it’s a contributing factor to why they’re not. Mario: Yeah, and and yeah, and I I remember some of these studies that are published, like outside of our own, and it’s always like main concerns about AI and there’s usually one that’s like, you know, economic impact or job losses and then privacy is usually hanging there on the top. So I I definitely review myself. Zac: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I I think that gets lumped in with a lot of things. particularly the thing that I think most people do end up worrying about is that it’s going to have some impact on their financial situation down the line. That’s your personal details being involved in a breach, credit card details, somebody getting into or unfreezing your credit account and trying to open a new line of credit, like a lot of these things at the end of the day, I think, get back to the comfort and stability that people have with either their finances or their way of life. is it gonna jeopardize you know a job application that I have in the future to find something that you know I’ve put publicly online or didn’t know that I was putting publicly online through use of a service? So I think that we should expect that it’s going to be a top issue, especially as we kind of continue into the future as we integrate AI with all of these other services that are being used, whether it’s other apps or subscriptions. Mario: Yeah. Yeah. And and I also remember other studies that that you guys have run and where it isn’t like there’s a one single thing about privacy that that people are worried about. There’s a broad concern about privacy. And and for some people it’s generic on like I don’t like the surveillance. I I just I don’t it’s an invasion of privacy. It can be a little a little more amorphous. For others it’s a bit more concrete, but it’s it’s the main thing is that there’s a broad general concern on this on this topic. And Zac: Absolutely. Yeah. Mario: So there’s a big concern about privacy. Seventy-five percent of people worry about it when using AI. What are they doing about it? Zac: It’s a tough story to tell. not tough because we don’t have the data or that we don’t understand it. It’s just like kinda hard to to piece through. So about forty percent have taken no action at all to protect themselves. but what that means is sixty percent have, and about half of them of that sixty percent, have like just either, you know, avoided using AI or maybe toned down a question because of privacy concerns. And so that kind of nets out to about one in three of the US adults that we polled at least have held back from using AI in cases where they’ve had a privacy concern. You can imagine, given the volume, the number of people using AI, that is a lot of potential interactions every day that people are either withholding or kind of transforming into a way that they feel more safe in using it. Others are actually seeking out the privacy options that exist. So there are some things like temporary library chats, switching between multiple accounts or services so that you’re not, you know, contaminating, so to speak, one AI with some context that you might not want it to have. But where there aren’t strong defaults, we can expect that to be an uphill battle as we saw this with search privacy and browser privacy, is that people tend to default to whatever the first thing is that they see in the search that they’re using. So it’s no surprise that the number isn’t higher because it’s not easy for people to find, even though they are demonstrating a lot of pent-up demand and action on it. Mario: Yeah, I I this is interesting. I I I remember once being in like a a qualitative study and I’m we’re just talking to people and you know they’re talking about their concerns. And and I remember there were a few people that they were saying they would, for example, they would often when they’re asking something to AI, they’ll even change what they’re writing. So they will not write what they want to ask, they will use some code words for example. So there’s there’s people are are are kind of editing themselves, even when they’re Zac: Yeah, for sure. Another big part of this that we didn’t study specifically here, but that I can imagine plays a large part in the psychology behind this is not having a very clear policy even on the like work-administered AI or if there’s an organization that you’re a part of, if they’ve given you access to a you know company tool, usually there’s some concern there about what the admin of that tool can see, what you know, how the company is collecting all of that data even from their own employees. So it kind of goes back to the idea that they’re not given the the right instruction or the right success setup to get them started with AI in a way that’s actually going to help them long term and abate this issue of them having a concern about their privacy the whole time that they’re using it. Mario: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course. so yeah, people have these concerns. Do they trust the AI company? Zac: Yeah. No, I knew you were gonna ask that. No, it’s fourteen percent of respondents say that they mostly or completely trust AI companies. I think it’s thirty-nine percent have no trust at all. and that’s been, you know, so one of the more consistent findings. especially I think it gets worse as companies continue to demonstrate some pretty poor handling of the rollout of AI, both from a privacy perspective and also just a UX perspective. I think it it contributes a lot to the mistrust that people have in the tool when they can’t really understand why it’s being integrated into their product experience. but if you look at something, you know, different than that, a place where AI hasn’t really been integrated that much, at least in a salient way, you can look at a stat, this US government trust in AI was even worse. It was 48% have no trust at all in the US government to mostly or completely or to to prep protect their data. Mario: Hmm. Okay. well. Yeah. I’m I’m I can imagine it’s not just US government specific, I can see and being generalized even in other places, even though this is just a US study. Wow, okay. Zac: Yeah, I mean maybe my o my my other personal take on this is there really aren’t a whole lot of good actors or, you know, role models in the space. I hope DuckDuckGo can can really stand for that and show people how to do it well. But if you think about people who are doing, you know, good AI rollouts, particularly the way that they’re handling, you know, user data or other types of data, there aren’t that many great examples. I can’t, you know, even think of any right now. Mario: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we have three quarters of people that are, you know, of people that are concerned about privacy when using AI. We have about two-thirds of the US using AI in some way, shape, or form. So how do you kind of, you know, how do you how do you think about these two, you know, similarly contradicting, you know, stats if folks don’t trust AI with their data? Like how do you how do you explain that? Zac: question. That’s the classic privacy paradox. But as with the past, I think it’s kind of a a load of BS in the sense that people still use things that they don’t trust, especially when they don’t have another choice. So a good example might be like your cable company. I don’t think most people you know have a really high affection for their cable company, yet they are forced to use it. They, you know, use it in mass. So oftentimes there aren’t other options. And if DuckDuckGo is an example, like people would rather use something that you know doesn’t feel like they’re paying for it with their data. And I think it was just the stat in our study that said 58% of AI users agree that like privacy keeps them from doing more with AI than they currently do. And goes back to that stat of the one third of Americans kind of like preventing themselves from putting something into AI in one of those cases. Like that’s a lot of this pent-up demand and uneasiness that shows you people are still using the tool, but they could be using it, say more more happily or in a more delightful way that doesn’t come with that that trade-off to their concern. Mario: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I I can see that. And so okay, clear. There’s concerns. you know, there’s a privacy paradox. Is there anything like when you looked at this broad data about concerns trust, is there any pattern when you look at specific segments? Is there you know, are these are these concerns like common across, you know, different segments or Zac: Yeah, it’s funny, is this was a question that was asked a long time ago when I first started because we we used to look you know at the same thing with regards to search privacy or browser privacy. Is privacy you know more pernicious or a greater care for certain demographics or certain segments? and and no, at least here, like same thing with with broad privacy, it stretches across gender and political affiliation, urban versus rural, psychographics, demographics, and really something that I think everybody’s concerned about. If you you know apply some some basic rigor to that. I think you could say, you know, people who are less technically inclined, maybe older folks, or people who are less, you know, educated might have more of an aversion to it in certain cases or for certain applications. But broadly it is something that stretches across all walks of life that we that we’ve at least that we’ve studied. Mario: Thank you. Thank you for that. So, okay, moving from this this this area. was there like when you go through the data in this study, was there any other facts that you think would like surprise people if they would hear about it, anything that came out of the study, any insight that would surprise anyone, you know, reading through it? Zac: Yes, and we are gonna put something up on our Spread Privacy blog about this. the stat that I thought was most surprising was 32% of all AI users have shared something with AI that they have not shared with a family member, friend, or like a doctor. so that just kind of goes to tell you that there is this large contingent of people who are kind of giving away more to AI than they would even to the most trusted confidants that they have. Mario: Yeah, so so in a way they are using AI as a confidant more than humans, sometimes. So Zac: Yes. Mario: yeah, it’s not surprising. I mean, you know, just you know, just the talking to people and and and seeing the news and I c I can see that, but is this something again I’m gonna ask you the segment question, is this something that is more prevalent on certain groups and less so on others? Zac: well earlier you were asking about privacy concerns, or privacy concerns are are prevalent. Across pretty much every psychographic and demographic, and like I said, something I think everybody feels. On usage and the way that they’re using it, the interesting thing that we found was that parents are actually confiding in AI almost twice as much as non-parents. So among parents that use AI, 43% have told them something that they would have never shared with another person, and that number is only 25% for non-parents. So there’s this you know large gap, and you can kind of think through some of the reasons why that parents would versus non-parents would be kind of confiding more in it or giving it more you know lucrative information from them. partly I think because you know there’s a a lot of certain life stages where that level of expertise is both like expensive or inaccessible. So parents probably are asking a lot of questions that might be a little bit embarrassing or a little bit too difficult to reach out to somebody about, maybe requires a lot of context. And so here you see this behavior with parents kind of confiding more in AI compared to non-parents. And I do expect that if we— So, Mario: Yeah, and and and that is a very interesting stat. And it reminds me once when I was talking with a few let’s let’s say AI users who were were parents from another study, and I remember them talking about the tension of sharing things with AI because it’s useful in many ways, but at the same time there’s also concern. So that’s it’s just interesting to have this one. Thank you. Thank you for this one. So you mentioned also before AI training, like AI chats being used to train AI. So i y you mentioned that. you mentioned that in general people didn’t know didn’t know about all o any of these facts about AI, but specifically about this one, about training. Like do people how many people know about it? How do people feel about it? Because this is something that’s talked about a lot. Zac: Yeah. Yeah, so the earlier stat was, you know, forty percent of people can’t name even like one of the six basic stats about how the data is handled. but if you look specifically at the stat or the the the criteria of like whether or not people are aware that AI services can train based on your data, 53% of people didn’t know that. Or or they weren’t sure that their conversations were used for AI training. And when they learn about it, of that 58%, it’s, you know, about half of them or more than half of them are really uncomfortable with it. And I think 30% are very uncomfortable. So it’s something that I think as people do realize it or find out how it’s being applied, and learn that these, you know, that if you take that group of people who had no idea about any of these six concerns, the more exposure that they get to it, the more that they learn about it, the more concerned that they’re likely to develop. Mario: Yeah, yeah, and my awareness of the of the issue and it’s it’s so important. Okay, that’s that’s interesting but also good good to to understand. so we’ve been talking a lot like about the study and like I think we can almost finish the start finishing the conversation here on on the study. But I’m just curious, especially with your you know, long experience studying privacy and technology, how is studying AI privacy different from studying privacy in other technology or studying the the consumers and users’ opinion about it. Like what’s what’s different from what you’ve been studying for for many, many years? Zac: that’s such a great question, Mario. there’s a lot that’s different. There’s also a lot that’s similar. I guess one of the hard things is there’s all there’s always a background rate of people’s misunderstanding between where certain products and and others begin. So search to browse was historically one of the kind of boundaries that I think people had a hard time with. Where does Google Chrome stop and Google search start would be kind of something that we would kind of try to get our heads around. Here at the simplest level, people just give AI more. It is a, you know, chat box with a lot of text entry. It makes it very easy to just give it kind of more information. And they also do that through voice prompting and being able to use your microphone, connecting services through either MCP or other kind of connectors and just giving it tons and tons of context that I think lead people to providing more deeply personal information, a richer set of data. So if you think about what the AI company sees on the other side of that, they’re just getting a lot more. And so if you can kind of go back to the risk that people are rightly concerned about, they’re giving a ton of data. There’s a ton of interpolation on top of that about what that data means. It’s very opaque, if not completely unknown, how the the AI companies themselves are handling or storing that data. And then you come back to that risk. If there is a breach, if there is some bad actor or an employee who has access to this, what they have access to is a completely different level of detail and context than than prior. So in researching this, something that we try to take into account is one, this this kind of background rate of people who, you know, share either a deep cons like share a deep concern as well as a like low understanding of exactly— exactly what the concern should be about. And like that, sussing that out a little bit more, I think, is something that we’re gonna have to get a lot better at over time because the products are gonna get more complicated and, in my opinion, more homogenous. almost every app that I use today has some kind of a chat box in it. They all look very similar, they all act somewhat similar. and at the end of the day, I think what people are really trying to get back to is a solid understanding that their lives are getting better and they’re not trading off something extreme like their privacy or their— yeah, their wellbeing as a result of that. Mario: Yeah, the the black box. you know, this is this reminds me of like I remember once watching Chanel, one of our researchers, and and she was talking to to someone and this person was was saying that with with AI, it’s it they were saying if if someone sees what I’m typing on a search box or on my browser, they’ll know what I do. But if they know what my AI chats are, they know how I think. So there is this feeling of a lot more intimacy and sensitivity and exposing your putting your brain on a paper, like it was even an expression I’ve heard someone use. That yeah, I think it it connects well to what you to what you just said. Zac: Yeah. Yeah, exactly that. Mario: Yeah. well, cool. Well, Zac, I think this ends the study discussion. You know, it’s good you give us this context, but you know, this is a little it’s a little it’s a little dire. Like where does this leave, you know, internet users and and people, you know, who just want to use it to, you know, improve their lives and and and you know and yeah, essentially. What’s do you have any words for us on that? Zac: Yeah, hopefully these people end up finding out about DuckDuckGo. because we’ve made AI optional and private by default. So this is something that, you know, because this is our bread and butter, we’ve tried to understand it and really make a product that serves the interests of of you know mainstream people looking for useful AI that doesn’t come with all of these privacy trade-offs. More so though, like this is about trust. And we’ve built our products around raising the standard of trust online. And I think a lot of companies are going to have to meet users in the middle. Otherwise people, as they normally do, will vote with their dollars or kind of walk out of these products in search of something better. Mario: Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, that’s it’s good to to end on this on on a trust and hope. And I’m glad we’re you know as a company that we’re trying to help in in making things better for for everyone. So okay, so my you know, I think like if I could summarize this, people are worried and check me and check if I’m saying something wrong. People are worried about AI and privacy. they’re worried, but they still use AI, even often as a confidant that they’ll say things that they don’t say to others. when you do inform people about the specifics of how they are at risk, they don’t like it at all. people that are already concerned about privacy, many are taking action. For example, by not asking certain questions or using AI less. and this is kind of like what I’m what I’m taking from it. And again, it’s good to know that, you know, companies like DuckDuckGo, but others as well are building tools, are building tools to solve this this issue. And this is a better place to be than, you know, nobody cares that there’s there’s people acting on it and that people are also taking action for it. and yeah, so Zac, I thank you for this, thank you for this overview, but I don’t wanna, you know, I don’t want to end on this on this note. So we’re gonna try to do something we have never done on Duck Tales. Are you willing? Zac: yeah, this is this is not my first Duck Tales. I don’t know what you’re prepared for. So let’s let’s do it. I’m excited. Mario: Okay. Well that’s okay, very good. So you’ve heard about Subway Takes, like popular online series. A lot of fun. Yeah, Subway Takes, hot takes. Yeah, yeah, or hot takes. Yeah, that Zac: Like hot takes, set of things like hot takes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mario: that works, that works well. So yeah, so we’re we’re gonna adapt this format a little bit. I’m gonna give you a topic. You’re gonna give me your hot take, and then I’ll tell you if I agree with it or I disagree with it. Okay. The most important that’s honestly the most relevant part. So we’re gonna Zac: The most important part. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Mario: call this Zac Takes. Okay, it’s a new segment. Very good. Ready? Okay, Zac: Love it. Yes. Mario: so what’s the most overrated thing in AI right now? Zac: frontier models. Do I have to explain these by the or should I explain them? Lightly. Mario: Slightly, just slightly. Zac: Frontier, I just think if what you were using yesterday was now all of a sudden invalidated by something that was released today, then we kind of lost the point. And I understand this is a little bit of a loaded question and I don’t get enough time to respond to it, but I’m gonna say frontier models. I don’t think they’re as big of a deal in terms of my experience. Mario: Yeah. Very good. Fifty percent agree. Fifty percent agree. That’s where I’ll leave it. What’s what’s the most underrated thing in AI right now? Zac: Yeah. same this is where I was turning— task completion. I think that is the thing that we should be talking about and whether or not people are actually getting something better than they were getting before. Can they order pizza faster or better, more consistently? Can they converse with their family about things that they couldn’t do before? I think we kind of lost sight of the basics of building good product is satisfying task completion. Mario: Well, I’m gonna give you a I’m gonna give you a another fifty percent agree on this one. I would counterpoint with I think giving people control of if, how and when they use AI. For me, that’s like an underrated feature, let’s put it like that, that I think we could all we could all benefit. Zac: That is good. Yeah. Mario: So in five years, another one. In five years, do you think private AI is gonna be its own category? It’s gonna be a checkbox inside every big AI product. Zac: I I would say both. I think even I mean now it is a table stakes feature I think that people are are expecting, even though most companies aren’t delivering it or delivering it transparently. so I would say that it’s both. And I do think before long we’ll see a lot more vertical integrated AI where somebody’s gonna try to make a play either for privacy or some level of trust, which is the big differentiator. Mario: Okay. I can’t not say a hundred percent agree on that one. So final two, what’s an everyday object that most deserves a privacy policy? Zac: the easy answer would have been like mirror or something, but I’m gonna say hotel key card because and this is just a personal thing. Every time I have a hotel key card, it is I I don’t know if I should throw it away. Do I return it to the desk? Should I shred it? I’ve heard that there’s nothing on there. It’s just my I d I don’t know, but at this point I would just like to know when I receive one. Yeah, if there’s just maybe a little disclaimer on the back of the card that could just tell me exactly what’s on there. I’d feel a little bit better about how I can. Mario: But information is important. You’re confusing. Yeah. Very good. Finally, last one. Last one of probably the last episode of Zac Takes Ever. What is the single most correct way to spell Zac? Zac: There’s no way to know. That knowledge was lost centuries ago. I did in high school, I don’t know if if this this person’s gonna be watching this, but I did in high school try to make a play for Z-A-Q as the way to spell Zac. Yeah. Yeah. Mario: Zac, I’m gonna say a hundred percent agree. That’s it. That’s it. We found the answer. We found the answer. No way I need it. Zac: I haven’t seen anybody pull it off. I don’t think I am the type of person to pull it off, but if I if I would have started in the early two thousands, I think by this point it would have been fashionable. Mario: There you go. Very good. Very good. Well, nicely done, Zac. Anything else you want to add before we wrap this? Zac: Nothing for me. Thank you so much, Mario. This is great. Mario: Very good. So Zac, thank you so much for joining Duck Tales. And to everyone listening, if you’ve got feedback on the show, episode idea, you want to complain about the host, want to know more about this study, for example, write to us at podcast at duckduckgo.com. That’s podcast at duckduckgo.com. We read all of them. We will listen to them if it’s an audio recording. We will see the video in case you’re sending us a video. We’re multimodal. So thanks, Zac, and see you around. Zac: Thank you. This is a public episode. 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