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In The Room

The Independent / Next Chapter Studios

Two former Westminster insiders reveal how politics and power really work.

Ever wondered what goes on behind closed doors at No 10? Or who’s the first person on the phone when a Prime Minister lands themselves in hot water?

Each week former Deputy Cabinet Secretary Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson, former political advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson, dissect the week’s biggest news, revealing how decisions get made, why they go wrong, and what should happen next.

In The Room is straight-talking, insider analysis with a dose of humour, every week.

This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Thursday · 28 min
Laura Kuenssberg: Inside Westminster's decade of chaos
Laura Kuenssberg has interviewed every living UK prime minister. In this special episode, she joins us to reveal how politicians attempt to control the narrative – and to diagnose the deeper dysfunction behind Britain’s political malaise. People have felt squeezed for years, and the political system has done little to earn their patience. In two decades covering Westminster, Kuenssberg says, she has never met a politician who believes government works well. In her new book, Pay Attention, she lays bare what she has learned. She also reflects on her encounters with Boris Johnson, Theresa May and Keir Starmer – and on the Peter Mandelson question she never got the chance to ask. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Tuesday · 29 min
Has Shabana Mahmood gone soft on immigration?
While Andy Burnham was playing cricket in Antigua, a storm was brewing at the top of the Labour Party. This week, Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood found herself in the spotlight after finally backing down on plans to make many migrant care workers wait up to 15 years for permanent settlement. But the wider reform to Indefinite Leave to Remain remains largely intact. The Conservatives have wasted no time, claiming the “U-turn” will cost taxpayers billions. Meanwhile, Labour MPs remain split: some say the reforms still go too far, while critics accuse Mahmood of going soft on immigration. So has she solved Labour’s political problem – or simply created a new one? Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
October 29 · 31 min
Burnham’s first Budget: Will this really save our economy?
Cheaper gherkins, £100 towards energy bills, higher taxes on banks and billions for defence. John Healey’s first Budget had something for everyone. But was there a main course among the picky bits? In this Budget special of In The Room, Cleo Watson and Helen MacNamara ask who benefits, who pays and what was conspicuously left off the table. They examine the real value of energy support, Healey’s defence funding turnaround and the OBR’s gloomy growth forecast. Then they take us inside Whitehall to reveal how a Budget is made – the last-minute negotiations, political theatre and fallout that can take days to emerge. Healey promised Britain breathing space today and hope for tomorrow. Did he deliver either? Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Adam Hollis Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
October 20 · 31 min
Why France is rioting – and is Britain next?
France is reeling after a weekend of unrest that escalated dramatically. Hundreds of thousands marched peacefully, but elsewhere shops were looted, cars burned, police attacked and public buildings set alight. What began with schoolchildren furious about missing teachers, crumbling classrooms and a system they believe is failing them quickly became something much bigger. People of all ages joined demonstrations driven by anger over the cost of living, deteriorating public services and a future that feels increasingly out of reach. With France approaching a presidential election, the unrest exposes a deeper political crisis. But this is not just a French story. Across Europe, established parties are struggling to retain the confidence of increasingly disillusioned electorates. And Britain has experienced its own moments when public anger has spilled into violence. Helen MacNamara, who was inside government during the 2011 riots and has attended countless COBR meetings, examines what happens when governments begin to lose control of the streets, and what France's crisis might tell us about the pressures building closer to home. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Adam Hollis Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
October 13 · 37 min
Does Andy Burnham want to reverse Brexit?
In Andy Burnham’s Makerfield constituency, 65% of voters backed Leave. During the recent by-election campaign, Burnham said he did not want to reopen the old Brexit arguments. Yet in recent weeks, the Prime Minister has made a series of pointed interventions on Britain’s relationship with the EU. At Labour conference, he said Brexit had done “more harm than good”. In a BBC interview, he suggested it was “possible” that a future Labour manifesto could promise another in-out referendum. And in a podcast this week, he claimed Russia had interfered in the Brexit vote. Burnham clearly has strong feelings about Europe. Today, we ask: why is he bringing the Brexit debate back now? Also, with Chancellor John Healey’s first Budget just two weeks away, we examine the big calls facing the government this winter — from fuel costs to the threat of freezing weather. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Adam Hollis Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
October 8 · 28 min
Can Kemi Badenoch save the Tories with Thatcherism 2.0?
Conference season is in full swing - and this week, it unfolded across two very different political stages. In Birmingham, the Conservatives came to town. As Kemi Badenoch continues to win strong approval ratings - despite the Conservatives struggling to recover from their 2024 defeat - her conference speech doubled down on a classic Tory pitch: a smaller state, lower taxes, and a return to economic aspiration. Cleo, a veteran of Tory conferences, breaks down the mood in Birmingham and weighs up whether Badenoch’s promises add up. Meanwhile, in Brighton, the Greens held their largest conference to date - but it was dominated by controversy. Members passed a motion declaring Zionism a form of racism, sparking fierce backlash from Jewish community leaders and MPs within the party. Green Party leader Zack Polanski was largely absent, busy campaigning in the Holborn and St Pancras by-election. We ask: can the Greens turn controversy into momentum - or has this motion cost them credibility? Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Jose Luis Ugarte Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 30 · 35 min
Andy Burnham waited his whole life to deliver this speech – here's how it landed
In The Room hits Liverpool for Labour Party Conference. Cleo heads into the hall, fringe events, protests and the media pen, talking to delegates, campaigners and lobbyists to get a feel for Andy Burnham’s Labour. Helen takes a different route, moving between Shelter, the Future Governance Forum and the receptions where senior figures are talking about what comes next. The mood is unusually upbeat, united and hopeful. But beneath the optimism, how much anxiety is there about turning the Burnham bounce into something that lasts? Then Burnham takes the stage. Helen and Cleo unpack an emotional, policy-heavy speech, from social care and pensions to public ownership, Brexit and electoral reform, and ask whether “hope again” can survive the harder realities of governing. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Video editor: Vali Raza Videographer: Dan Faber Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 22 · 36 min
Burnham’s Trump test – and the Lib Dems' identity crisis
The Liberal Democrats are the third-largest party in the Commons, but where do they fit into Andy Burnham’s Britain? Following Ed Davey’s Brighton conference speech, we ask what the party actually stands for and uncover a surprising connection to Cleo’s political past. In New York, Burnham faces his first meeting with Donald Trump. With Ukraine, Iran, AI and even the Falklands potentially on the agenda, what does Britain need from the president, and how do you prepare a prime minister for a meeting with Trump? And across the Channel, Germany’s far-right AfD has secured another regional election victory. What does its rise tell us about Europe’s changing political landscape, and are there lessons for Britain’s established parties? Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 16 · 49 min
Reform’s £72m war chest - and how real are AI doomsday warnings?
Reform’s money trail is still dominating the headlines, with two billionaire donors handing the party £72m in just 48 hours. Meanwhile, the Representation of the People Bill is making its way through the Lords. We look at why attempts to curb big money in British politics keep failing, and why Labour’s own position is more complicated than it seems. Across the Irish Sea, President Trump has reignited the debate over the future of the Union, just as the leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland mount a coordinated push for greater self-determination. That leaves Andy Burnham with an awkward question: he’s made devolution central to his premiership, but how far does he really want it to go? And as anxiety over AI moves into the mainstream, we speak to Jonathan Black, who spent two decades at the heart of government, including as Deputy National Security Adviser. He represented Rishi Sunak at the 2023 AI Safety Summit at Bletchley Park, which brought the US, China and the world’s leading AI companies together for the first global agreement on frontier AI safety. Now a distinguished visiting fellow at Columbia University, he joins us to reveal whether the fears around AI have finally caught up with the technology. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
September 8 · 46 min
Farage’s scandal-hit conference and Burnham’s next big test
Westminster is back, and so is conference season, beginning with Reform’s scandal-hit gathering in Birmingham. Helen was there, and gives her verdict on whether Nigel Farage’s party still feels like a government-in-waiting after a bruising week. Meanwhile, Keir Starmer’s decision to stand down in Holborn and St Pancras has triggered the sixth by-election of the year, with Green leader Zack Polanski eyeing a contest that could become an early test of Andy Burnham’s ability to reunite the left. And as politics returns for a new term, we ask whether Kemi Badenoch’s reshuffle can revive the Conservatives, what Burnham’s first moves back in government tell us about the autumn ahead, and whether Labour can really fight Reform, the Greens and the Tories at the same time. Executive producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 25 · 34 min
Lessons from No 10: What happens when the PM meets Trump and Putin | Peter Hill
Being prime minister can be a lonely job. Everyone wants your attention, your approval and a say in the decisions you make. But when the fanfare dies down, it’s you holding the pen and making the biggest calls. Fortunately, every prime minister has one person at their side: their principal private secretary. Peter Hill was Theresa May’s PPS from 2017 to 2019, as well as her sherpa for the G7 and G20 summits. As the most senior civil servant in No 10, he was there for the private conversations, difficult decisions and encounters with some of the world’s most powerful leaders. In this episode, Peter takes us behind the scenes of meetings with Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, revealing what they’re really like in the room, the unexpected humour behind closed doors, and the reality of being at a prime minister’s right hand through thick and thin. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 18 · 47 min
Lessons from No 10: When government comms go badly wrong | Lee Cain
“It's a comms problem” is the diagnosis politicians, pundits and the public often reach for whenever a prime minister flounders. It was arguably Keir Starmer’s biggest undoing. From the beginning, he failed to articulate what kind of prime minister he would be. In the end, nobody really knew what he thought about anything. For today’s guest Lee Cain, Starmer was a “political vacuum” - but believes his successor Andy Burnham is ripe with rhetorical promise. Cain was director of communications in No 10 under Boris Johnson at the height of the Covid pandemic, and before that was a newspaper journalist for many years. He created the idea of the ‘bubble’ - the group of six people you were sanctioned to mingle with during lockdown’s bleakest days. He was also at the sharp end of Johnson’s counterintuitive policy howlers, like instructing the public to avoid pubs, without actually closing them. In this episode, he reveals how these moments unfolded. In this episode of Lessons from No 10, Cain reveals how those moments unfolded. He explains the problem of Whitehall’s comms bloat, revisits the “slow-moving car crash” of the pandemic’s communications failures and offers an insider’s view of Burnham’s “social-first” strategy. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 11 · 33 min
Count Binface vs Farage: Flakes, Ferraris and the Clacton by-election
With the Clacton by-election just days away, In The Room welcomes perhaps Nigel Farage’s most unusual opponent: Count Binface. The intergalactic candidate joins Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson to defend his manifesto, from capping 99 Flakes at 99p and building “at least one” affordable home to tackling Britain’s badly positioned hand dryers. He explains why housing and homelessness sit behind some of the jokes, reveals what he’d do with Buckingham Palace and offers Nigel Farage some advice should he lose the election: head straight to the nearest Ferrari showroom. Afterwards, Helen and Cleo look at what is actually happening in Clacton, whether Binface can translate his media momentum into votes, and what the extraordinary contest tells us about Farage, Reform and the state of British politics. Producer: Sam Durham Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
August 4 · 40 min
Lessons from No 10: When the world's most powerful CEOs enter Downing Street | Jimmy McLoughlin
When Apple chief executive Tim Cook visited No 10, he stopped to admire David Bailey’s portrait of Queen Elizabeth II. Jimmy McLoughlin, then Downing Street’s business director, gave him an impromptu tour and discovered along the way that Cook was also a fan of Netflix’s acclaimed royal drama The Crown. Working under Theresa May, McLoughlin’s role was to help ensure that some of the world’s most influential business leaders had a productive relationship with the prime minister. Cook’s fascination with the Queen pointed to something broader: the value of British soft power, and the importance of the relationship between Westminster and the corporate world. In the first episode of Lessons from No 10, McLoughlin joins Helen MacNamara and Cleo Watson to discuss what ministers really need to understand about business. Now host of Jimmy’s Jobs of the Future, he argues that politicians do not all need to have run companies themselves – but they do need to understand the people who have. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 31 · 43 min
Who's winning the summer? Burnham, Badenoch and Farage assessed
As Andy Burnham's second week in power draws to a close, his rivals are scratching their heads and plotting their summer challenges – with mixed results. Green leader Zack Polanski is facing heat over yet another social media misdemeanour, it’s far from all quiet for Nigel Farage on the Clacton front, and the Liberal Democrats are nowhere to be seen – time for another Ed Davey stunt? Meanwhile, Kemi Badenoch is preparing to embark on a summer tour with the highest approval rating of any Tory leader since April 2021. Today, we bring you the ultimate preview of Westminster's summer. During August we'll be having our own summer recess, bringing you a special interview series: Lessons From No.10. Jimmy McLoughlin – the podcast host who landed the first interview with the new PM and a former business director in No.10 – tells us what it's really like meeting the world's most powerful CEOs. Peter Hill – principal private secretary to Theresa May – describes what it's like being up close with Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump and Angela Merkel. And Lee Cain – who found himself almost running the country when Boris Johnson was hospitalised during Covid – tells us how to hold government communications together in a crisis. As a new prime minister settles in, this series is the ultimate primer for life inside 10 Downing Street. We'll be back from the start of September, when Andy Burnham faces Kemi Badenoch at PMQs for the very first time – and the countdown to party conference season begins. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 28 · 36 min
Too much Manchester? Andy Burnham's first big interview unpacked
Andy Burnham finally sat down to face some old school scrutiny this week. After weeks of winning praise for his social-first approach to communications – Britain's first TikTok Prime Minister? – he finally sat down for a proper grilling with the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg. Today, we unpack his performance. How did he handle the tough questions on Trump and Putin? Is he talking about Manchester a little too much? And beyond the polished messaging, does he sound like a Prime Minister with a convincing plan to govern? Meanwhile, No.10's policy fruit machine spun again with a surprise overhaul of technical education, and Count Binface launched a manifesto that might just be the clearest piece of political communication of the week. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 24 · 35 min
Andy Burnham week one: promises, pitfalls and the prison problem
Andy Burnham has survived his first week. The former Manchester mayor turned prime minister is now in his spiritual home – No.10 North – after repeatedly calling it the best day of his life. It's been a week of 6am policy drops, wall-to-wall coverage and Burnham firmly at the centre of every story. But Helen and Cleo aren't just here to admire the opening moves. They want to know whether the presidential style is already tipping into hubris, what the prison U-turn actually signals about the government underneath the announcements – and perhaps most importantly of all… why does he keep hugging everybody? Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video Editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 21 · 34 min
Andy Burnham is Prime Minister. Now what?
After weeks of speculation, Andy Burnham finally unveiled his first cabinet late on Tuesday, with John Healey the surprise choice as chancellor, Ed Miliband moving to the Foreign Office and Shabana Mahmood remaining as home secretary. Then came his first speech outside Downing Street. Dispensing with the familiar prime ministerial lectern, Burnham promised to end rough sleeping, reviving one of the defining pledges of his time as mayor of Greater Manchester. In the latest episode of In The Room, we pick apart what his appointments tell us about the government he wants to lead, who has emerged with real power, who has been cast aside, and whether the promises he's making now are ones he can actually keep. Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Jose Luis Ugarte Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 17 · 31 min
Inside Andy Burnham’s No 10 takeover
Andy Burnham has finally been crowned Labour Party leader. Attention turns now to his top team, with home secretary Shabana Mahmood hotly tipped to be named chancellor. Meanwhile, Ed Miliband and Wes Streeting continue to cast a shadow over Burnham’s picks. On Monday, after formalities with the King, Burnham will become the UK’s seventh prime minister in ten years. Today, we tell you what to expect in Monday’s power transition, discuss what his top team might signal, and ask whether Shabana Mahmood will make the best choice as chancellor. Read more from The Independent: Mr Milburn’s historic NEET review deserves cross-party support Andy Burnham claims he has a plan for change – it’s a shame he still hasn’t told us what it is What Shabana Mahmood as chancellor could mean for your money and taxes Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Video editor: Vali Raza Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
July 14 · 34 min
Can Andy Burnham succeed where Keir Starmer failed?
It’s Keir Starmer’s final week in office. 739 days ago, after a rejection of the Tories and a sweeping landslide for Labour, he became PM. So where did it all go wrong for him? Today we take a trip down memory lane to summer 2024 and the beginning of Keir Starmer’s rocky first 100 days and ask: can Andy Burnham learn from Keir Starmer's mistakes? Executive Producer: Rod Ardehali Producer: Sam Durham Find the best clips from the podcast and more from Helen and Cleo on the show's Instagram page here. Email your questions to Helen and Cleo on intheroom@independent.co.uk. This podcast is part of The Independent Podcast Network and is produced in association with Next Chapter Studios. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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