Consider the Constitution

The Chapter Between the Revolution and the Constitution

We tend to jump straight from the Revolution to the Constitutional Convention — from a young James Madison to the Father of the Constitution. But the years in between are where the promises of independence collided with the hard work of governing. Dr. Frank Cogliano, professor of American history at the University of Edinburgh and author of A Revolutionary Friendship: Washington, Jefferson, and the American Republic, joins Katie in the studio to walk through that chapter. They start with the question of who the Revolution actually included — enslaved people, Native nations, women, common people, loyalists — and what independence meant to each. Then they follow Madison home to Montpelier: the Orange County Committee of Safety, the Virginia Convention of 1776, Jefferson's Governor's Council, and a Congress whose failures taught him exactly what needed fixing. Along the way, Cogliano makes the case that Madison's willingness to change his mind is a strength, not hypocrisy. He explains why the Madison–Washington partnership may be more interesting than the famous Madison–Jefferson friendship. And he leaves us with a challenge for the semiquincentennial year: live up to the words, and relearn how to disagree without hating each other.

More Than Decoration: What Montpelier's Objects Reveal About Power and Slavery

What can a bird's nest, a set of porcelain ice cream vases, and a portrait of Confucius tell us about the early American republic? In this episode, host Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey sits down with Dr. Lisa Goff, Associate Professor of English and American Studies at the University of Virginia and former director of its Institute for Public History, to explore how historians read objects as evidence. Lisa walks us through the furnishings, art, and tableware inside James and Dolly Madison's Montpelier home — from European landscape paintings and portraits of foreign rulers to Dolly's elaborate porcelain ice cream service — and what they reveal about the Madisons' global ambitions, Dolly's political skill as a hostess, and the enslaved labor that made it all possible. We talk about the dining room as a stage for both diplomacy and denial, the archaeology behind the mansion's restoration, and the objects enslaved individuals at Montpelier owned and chose for themselves. Lisa also previews her forthcoming book, Stories in the Soil: Recovering Black and White Histories at James Madison's Montpelier, out this April.

The Man Behind "We the People": Recovering James Wilson

The three most famous words in American government — We the People — were written by a founder most Americans have never heard of. Host Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey sits down with author and journalist Jesse Wegman to recover the story of James Wilson: a Scottish immigrant who arrived in 1765, signed both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, drafted the Constitution's opening words, and sat on the first Supreme Court — then vanished almost entirely from national memory. Wegman's new book, The Lost Founder: James Wilson and the Forgotten Fight for a People's Constitution, is the first full-length biography of Wilson in more than seventy years. Wilson was the convention's fiercest advocate for popular sovereignty. He pushed for proportional representation, one-person, one-vote, and the direct election of the president — positions bold enough to unsettle many of his peers. We owe to him not only We the People but the Necessary and Proper Clause and the Supremacy Clause, the architecture of a strong national government. His 1768 essay on parliamentary authority reached Thomas Jefferson's desk and echoes in the Declaration itself. His end was as dramatic as his rise. A ruinous addiction to land speculation left Wilson holding four million acres he could not pay for. He was jailed twice for debt — the only Supreme Court justice ever imprisoned — and died in 1798 in the back room of a North Carolina tavern, delirious and destitute, with no funeral and scarcely a mention. Wegman explains why Wilson's ideas about equality and self-government still matter, and what we lose when the stories we tell about the founding get too simple.

Sacred Words: Jefferson, Madison, and the Language of Religious Freedom

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison agreed on almost everything when it came to religious freedom. But they talked about it in completely different ways. Historian Dr. John Ragosta joins Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey to unpack that difference — Jefferson's intellectual, almost deistic case for separating church and state, and Madison's surprisingly reverential, scripture-laced language defending the same principle. Ragosta walks through the Memorial and Remonstrance, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and Madison's presidential vetoes on church matters, showing how two founders reached identical conclusions from very different starting points. The conversation closes on why that distinction still matters — and why separation of church and state was never, for either man, an attack on religion itself.

Becoming Madison

We know James Madison as the Father of the Constitution. But who was he before that? In this special episode, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey takes the guest seat to explore the formative years that made Madison who he is. At 25, Madison was the youngest major figure of the founding era — small, sickly, quiet, and easy to overlook. He never commanded armies or delivered rousing speeches. What he had were ideas, and a framework for thinking about power, human nature, and government that no one else in the room quite possessed. Where did that framework come from? The answer lies in three Scottish Enlightenment-influenced teachers, a frontier Virginia upbringing, and an unconventional choice to attend the College of New Jersey — the institution we know today as Princeton — rather than William and Mary, where every other wealthy Virginia man of his generation enrolled. Dr. Crawford-Lackey traces Madison's intellectual development from the schoolroom of Donald Robertson, where a 70-mile horseback journey opened a young boy's mind to Locke, Milton, and Montesquieu, through his years under John Witherspoon at Princeton — where he experienced the Boston Massacre and the Boston Tea Party not as distant news, but as live confirmation of everything the Scottish Enlightenment had taught him about human passion and the limits of reason. Madison wasn't born a Founding Father. He was made — by a rigorous education, a world in crisis, and the hardest question anyone could ask on the eve of a revolution: What kind of people is government meant to govern? The answer he arrived at still shapes American democracy today.

Making the Constitution Readable: PBS' Ben Sheehan on Civics, Comedy, and Closing the Knowledge Gap

What does the Constitution actually say — and why haven't most of us read it? Ben Sheehan, bestselling author and award-winning digital creator, joins host Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey to talk about the civic knowledge gap and how he used his background in comedy to make one of the most important documents in American history genuinely readable. Ben traces his own constitutional education — from dinner table civics lessons with his mom, a Senate staffer, to his years at Funny or Die and the Upright Citizens Brigade, to writing OMG WTF Does the Constitution Actually Say? He makes the case that Congress is more powerful than we're taught, that the Bill of Rights is the work of one person who lived on the very land where this episode was recorded, and that civic engagement doesn't have to mean doomscrolling — just ten minutes a day across the federal, state, and local level. Ben is also the host of Civics Made Easy on PBS, now being taught in 40,000 classrooms nationwide.

250 Years Later: The Philosopher Who Made It Possible

The words are familiar — life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness — but do we really know what they meant to the men who wrote them? As America marks 250 years of independence, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey sits down with Dr. Lynn Uzzell, Julia Van Geest, and T.C. Le, co-authors of the forthcoming book Locking and Unlocking the Declaration of Independence: An Introduction to Jefferson's Philosophy on Revolution, to trace the ideas behind America's founding document back to their source: 17th-century English philosopher John Locke. The conversation unpacks how Jefferson both borrowed from and departed from Locke on consent, revolution, property, and happiness — and why those differences still shape how we understand American democracy today.

The Constitution Before the Constitution with Dr. Zachary Deibel

Before the Declaration of Independence, before the Constitutional Convention, colonists were already debating the meaning of a constitution — and it didn't look anything like the document we know today. Dr. Zachary Deibel, assistant professor of history at the Virginia Military Institute, joins Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey at Montpelier to trace the constitutional ideas that shaped the American Revolution. Drawing on the writings of John Dickinson, the legacy of the Glorious Revolution, and the colonial charters that defined the relationship between the King and his American subjects, Deibel unpacks why the dispute with Britain wasn't simply about taxes — it was a fundamental disagreement over the meaning of liberty itself. He also explores a theme that resonates well beyond the 18th century: when two sides decide there is nothing left to learn from each other, that's when the shooting starts. This episode is supported in part by the Virginia Law Foundation.

The Temple and the Republic: Architecture, Liberty, and Madison's Legacy

This episode is part of a special five-part miniseries examining James Madison's role in the American Revolution and the founding of the United States. As part of Montpelier's commemoration of the 250th anniversary of American independence, this series is funded by a grant from the Virginia American Revolution 250 Commission, in partnership with Virginia Humanities. In this final installment, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey sits down with Chris Pasch, Montpelier's archaeology field director, to examine one of the property's most symbolically charged structures: the Temple. Built around 1810 while Madison was serving as president, this open-air classical structure draws on Greco-Roman architectural tradition to embed the ideals of Enlightenment, liberty, and self-government directly into the landscape. Pasch brings both archaeological evidence and architectural history to what the Temple reveals about Madison's world. This episode closes the miniseries with a reminder that the Temple's meaning endures: informed, active citizenship is the foundation on which the American experiment still stands. This episode is supported in part by the Virginia Law Foundation.

Women and the Constitution

When the Constitution was drafted in 1787, women weren't explicitly excluded — they were simply not addressed. Dr. Catherine Allgor, historian and former President of the Massachusetts Historical Society, joins host Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey at Montpelier to unpack what that silence actually meant — and why it wasn't accidental. At the center of the conversation is a word every listener will want to know: coverture. The legal doctrine that erased a woman's identity at marriage — subsuming her personhood, her property, her wages, even her children into her husband — was never abolished by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Dr. Allgor traces coverture from the founding era through Abigail Adams's famous "Remember the Ladies" letter, the suffrage movement, and the ERA debate, arguing that its legacy is still very much alive today. A bracing, eye-opening conversation for the 250th anniversary year — and a reminder that the republican experiment is still a work in progress. This episode is supported in part by the Virginia Law Foundation.

Promises to Keep: Madison, Self-Government, and the Citizen's Responsibility

This episode is part of a five-part miniseries examining James Madison's role in the American Revolution and the founding of the United States. Part of Montpelier's commemoration of the 250th anniversary of American independence, this series is funded by a grant from the Virginia American Revolution 250 Commission in partnership with Virginia Humanities. What does it actually take to sustain a republic — not just to build one, but to keep it alive across generations? In this episode, part of a special five-part miniseries commemorating America's 250th anniversary, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey speaks with Professor Colleen Sheehan of Arizona State University, one of the foremost scholars of James Madison's political thought. Drawing on her books The Mind of James Madison and James Madison and the Spirit of Republican Self-Government, Professor Sheehan explains why Madison believed the greatest threat to the republic wasn't foreign invasion or economic collapse, but something far more internal — the capacity of citizens to deliberate well, check their own impulses, and honor what Madison called a "debt of protection" we owe to one another. From the Federalist Papers to Robert Frost, this conversation illuminates why Madison remains essential to understanding what self-government actually demands of us — and what the 250th anniversary asks of us today.

The Supreme Court's Credibility

The Supreme Court has no army, no budget, and no way to enforce its own rulings. Its power rests entirely on the credibility of its words. Attorney and author Peter Cohen joins Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey to explore what happens when you go straight to the source — reading the justices' opinions directly rather than relying on outside interpretation. Drawing on his book In the Supreme Court's Own Words, Cohen walks through two centuries of landmark decisions in which the court checked presidential power, explains why dissenting opinions like Justice Harlan's in Plessy v. Ferguson can become the law of the land decades later, and makes the case that Supreme Court decisions are far more accessible than most people assume. From Lincoln and habeas corpus to Truman and the steel mills to the constitutional questions playing out in real time today, this conversation is a reminder that the framers feared monarchy — and built a system designed to prevent it. This episode is supported in part by the Virginia Law Foundation.

Madison's Revolutionary Legacy: From Virginia Rights to the War of 1812

This episode is part of a special five-part miniseries examining James Madison's role in the American Revolution and the founding of the United States. As part of Montpelier's commemoration of the 250th anniversary of American independence, this series is funded by a grant from the Virginia American Revolution 250 Commission, in partnership with Virginia Humanities. James Madison's participation in the American Revolution shaped not only his political philosophy but his entire approach to governance. In this episode, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey sits down with Dr. Jay Cost to explore how Madison's revolutionary experiences—from his work on Virginia's Declaration of Rights at age 25 to his presidency during the War of 1812—reveal a leader committed to proving that self-government could work. Dr. Cost explains how Madison viewed the Revolution as an opportunity for fundamental reform based on liberal principles, and how his deep distrust of British authority influenced his diplomatic and military decisions decades later. The conversation illuminates Madison's unique talent for translating revolutionary ideals into practical political action, including his pragmatic leadership in creating the Bill of Rights and his determination to secure American sovereignty through what he saw as a "second war for independence."

The Foundation of Legislative Politics

When Congress can't pass laws, is the problem in the Constitution—or in the rules that govern how legislators actually do their work? In this episode, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey welcomes back Dr. Lauren Bell to discuss her new book, Transatlantic Majoritarianism: How Murder, Migration and Modernity Transformed 19th Century Legislatures. Dr. Bell reveals how 19th-century lawmakers in both the United States and Britain wrestled with a fundamental democratic dilemma: how to allow majority rule without descending into chaos or obstruction. From the "vanishing quorum" that paralyzed the House of Representatives to Irish members weaponizing parliamentary procedure in the House of Commons, Bell traces the parallel crises that forced both nations to rethink legislative power. This episode is supported in part by the Virginia Law Foundation.

Loyalists, Patriots, and the Reality of Revolution

This episode is part of a special five-part miniseries examining James Madison's role in the American Revolution and the founding of the United States. As part of Montpelier's commemoration of the 250th anniversary of American independence, this series is funded by a grant from the Virginia American Revolution 250 Commission, in partnership with Virginia Humanities. Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey sits down with historian Dr. Jim Ambuske to explore the complicated landscape of Revolutionary Virginia. Rather than a simple Patriots-versus-British narrative, the American Revolution was fundamentally a civil war that divided neighbors, families, and communities. Discover how religion, economics, and geography shaped whether Virginians supported independence or remained loyal to the Crown. Learn how enslaved people, indigenous nations, and women navigated this period of upheaval, making strategic choices amid profound danger and opportunity. From Scottish merchants in Norfolk to Madison's concerns about slave conspiracies, from the calculations of the Haudenosaunee to women asserting new political rights, this episode reveals the messy, perilous reality behind the founding.

Forging the Revolution: Montpelier's Blacksmith Shop and the Hidden Network of the American War

What can 500 pounds of slag reveal about the American Revolution? In this episode, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey talks with Dr. Matt Reeves, Montpelier's Director of Archaeology, about the blacksmith shop that powered James Madison Sr.'s plantation during the Revolutionary War. Through archaeological evidence and surviving ledger books, they uncover a regional network of production, the expertise of enslaved artisans like Moses, and how this industrial operation supplied the Continental Army—while transforming the economic and social landscape of Revolutionary Virginia.

Young Madison and the Founding Years

This episode launches a special five-part miniseries examining James Madison's role in the American Revolution and the founding of the United States. Part of Montpelier's commemoration of the 250th anniversary of American independence, this series is funded by a grant from the Virginia American Revolution 250 Commission in partnership with Virginia Humanities. Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey talks with Dr. Lynn Uzzell about Madison's formative years—from his education at the College of New Jersey (Princeton) under John Witherspoon to his early political activism in 1770s Virginia. The conversation explores how Madison's exposure to Scottish Enlightenment philosophy and religious diversity shaped his lifelong commitment to freedom of conscience. At just 25 years old, Madison contributed critical language to Virginia's 1776 Declaration of Rights, replacing "toleration" with "free exercise of religion"—phrasing that would later appear in the First Amendment. The episode traces Madison's service during the Revolutionary War through the Continental Congress and his growing recognition of the weaknesses in the Articles of Confederation, setting the stage for his pivotal role at the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

Consider The Constitution: 2025 Year in Review

In this special year-end episode, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey looks back at 19 conversations from 2025 with historians, lawyers, constitutional experts, and public servants.

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The Power of Place: Historic Preservation at James Madison's Montpelier

In this special episode commemorating the 25th anniversary of the co-stewardship partnership between the National Trust for Historic Preservation and The Montpelier Foundation, host Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey welcomes Tom Mayes, Chief Legal Officer of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. Together, they explore how historic places like James Madison's Montpelier connect us to the origins of the Constitution and why preserving these spaces matters for democracy.

The Mosaic of Montpelier

In this special episode of Consider The Constitution, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey is joined by Dr. Kelley Fanto Deetz, Montpelier's Chief Advancement Officer, to explore how James Madison's Montpelier reveals history's most essential truth: no story stands alone. Deetz reveals why Madison's constitutional genius, Dolley's political mastery, and the enslaved community's foundational role must be understood as interconnected tiles in one complex picture. From diplomatic dinners served by enslaved hands to architectural choices that masked uncomfortable truths, every detail illuminates the contradictions of liberty being born on a landscape built by bondage.

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