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BAD PEOPLE PODCAST

MK & CCSR

BAD PEOPLE

-With good Stories-

(Bad people are people, too)

Are we inherently good, inherently bad, or a mixture of both? What happens when our commitment to good leads us into really dark territory? Is it possible to own our failures and missteps without falling into traps of shame, blame, or self-sabotage? What happens when we lose things like a community, a family, or a belief system? What happens when we’re finally honest with ourselves, about ourselves (and others)?

In this series of deeply candid conversations, Christa and Micah attempt to excavate the terrain of their lives with vulnerability and curiosity, mining it for personal stories of hurt, failure, disconnection, despair, realization, and growth. By talking openly about the things we tend to wrestle through alone - which in turn can cause isolation and mental harm - we believe that bringing these experiences and emotions to light and into relationship is one way we can access the strength to move on, and ultimately, heal.

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20 episodes
Avg 1 hr 2 min
English

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S3 · E3
July 30 · 1 hr 24 min
LET'S CHAT: NARCISSISTS.
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S3 EP 3 : LET'S CHAT: NARCISSISTS. What if the perception that we can just “love people into healing or wholeness” doesn’t always apply? What if for some people, recognising their own destructive or challenging behaviour isn’t really a priority? In this episode, Christa opens up a conversation around Narcissism, drawing on the work of Dr. Ramani Durvasula. We discuss narcissistic personality disorder, the four types of narcissism and more. If our conversation sparks curiosity for you, listed below are some resources and educational materials we have found informative and helpful. As always, reach out to us if you have any thoughts or feedback about this episode! Books referenced: It’s Not You - Identifying and Healing from NARCISSISTIC People / Ramani Durvasula, PhD When Narcissism Comes To Church / Chuck Degroat Podcast episodes referenced: WTF is on my mind?! - Mark Vicente / Episode released September 21, 2025 - “Are Narcissists Born or Made? W/ Dr. Peter Salerno” A Little Bit Culty - Sarah Edmonson and Anthony Ames / Episode released March 11, 2024 - “It’s Not You - Dr Ramani on Post-Narc Healing” A Little Bit Culty - Sarah Edmonson and Anthony Ames / Episode released June 7, 2026 - “Where Are They Now? Mark Vicente on The Narcissist’s Playbook” Armchair Expert - Dax Shepard / Episode released May 23, 2024 - "Ramani Durvasula (on narcissism)" Film: The Narcissist’s Playbook Director: Mark Vicente Release Date: July 24-26, 2026 Helpful websites: https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com https://studio.youtube.com/video/TJ-KLO4eNIw/edit
S3 · E2
July 16 · 1 hr 24 min
LET'S CHAT: CULTS.
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S3 EP 2 : LET'S CHAT: CULTS In this episode we discuss: what are cults? Who is susceptible to joining one? What are some signals of cultish behaviour? How do culty groups typically operate? There are no black and white answers to these questions, but according to our research, there are definitely patterns and “red flags” that can be identified when it comes to coercive and controlling behaviour— such as thought control, shaming, building an “us and them” view of the world, omitting necessary information etc. Christa and Micah discuss some of these things in the context of Church systems, religion and everyday relationships. Information quoted at the beginning of the episode comes from the book Cultish - The Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell (a linguist, author and podcaster). They also chat through some key points of Steven Hassan’s BITE model of authoritarian control. Hopefully you find this conversation helpful/insightful, and as always— DM us if you would like to contribute to the conversation! Below is a list of resources I’ve found insightful as I (Micah) have sought to explore the topic of cults/spiritual abuse in greater depth: Web: Freedom of Mind Resource Center - Dr Stephen Hassan https://freedomofmind.com/ Books: Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism - Amanda Montell Inspired - Rachel Held Evans Unfollow - Megan Phelps-Roper When Religion Hurts You - Dr. Laura Anderson A Well Trained Wife - Tia Levings Educated - Tara Westover Holy Hurt - Hillary L. McBride Podcasts: Sounds like A Cult - Host: Amanda Montell A Little Bit Culty - Hosts: Sarah Edmonson and Anthony Ames The Turning, Seasons 1&3 - Host: Erika Lantz The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill - Host: Mike Cosper / Christianity Today Holy Hurt - Host: Hillary McBride Heaven Bent - Host: Tara Jean Stevens The Liturgists - Host: Michael Gungor and friends The Bible For Normal People - Host: Jared Byas and Peter Enns Documentaries: Shiny, Happy People / A Teenage Holy War (Seasons 1 & 2) Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed Secrets of Hillsong Keep Sweet, Pray & Obey Trust Me: The False Prophet Dancing for the Devil The Cult of Nature Boy Escaping Twin Flames The Ruby Franke Story Disciples - The Cult of TB Joshua
S3 · E1
July 2 · 27 min
CORDIALLY INVITED...
BAD PEOPLE CORDIALLY INVITE YOU TO SEASON THREE... Our warmest welcome back as we return for our newest release... OR – if you’re joining us for the first time, we’re so glad you’re here. In this episode we discuss intentions for third season and why we’ve decided to keep talking, exploring, and making space for “bad” conversations… We chat about feminist approaches to research and discuss questions such as “what counts as knowledge?” and “what are the power dynamics at play when it comes to sharing/gaining knowledge?” We hope you enjoy the greyscale and as always... let's do some GOOD while acknowledging the BAD.
S2 · E9
April 30 · 52 min
BE BRAVE
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 9 : BE BRAVE In the final episode of season 2, Christa and Micah recap on the conversations they’ve had with podcast guests, and recall some of their favourite insights and takeaways from each conversation. They also discuss the new chapters in their personal life and the career changes that are taking place as well as where the podcast is headed for season three.
S2 · E8
February 19 · 1 hr 13 min
JUST RACE
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 8 : JUST RACE In our episode this week, we talk with Hannah about themes of race, identity and advocacy. Hannah is a Korean-Canadian educator and marathon runner, and in this conversation she shares some pivotal experiences from her youth which led into deeper exploration of her own identity, and subsequently heightened her awareness around racial injustice and discrimination. The subject of racism/anti-racism can be an uncomfortable one to broach for various different reasons. So with this conversation we wanted to provide an entry point to the discourse for both ourselves and our listeners. If you’re curious about learning more, the books/resources mentioned in this episode are listed below! The Four Pivots by Shawn A. Ginwright - Reimagining Justice. Reimagining ourselves The Wake Up by Michelle Mijung Kim - Closing the gap between good intentions and real change White Women by Regina Jackson - Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better Holy HurtPodcast, Episode 8, Unsettling Ourselves by Dr Hillary McBride
S2 · E7
January 15 · 1 hr 36 min
CERTAIN MEN WOULD
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 7 : CERTAIN MEN WOULD This week on the podcast, we chat with Grant Klassen, Micah’s husband of 12 years. Grant is the owner of Goodwood Audio, a company he started in 2013 with a friend which caters to touring musicians - mainly guitarists. In this episode we discuss: Finding a career path that feels right Metrics & Tensions: the realities of running a small business Marriage dynamics, parenting & gender roles Questioning Christian Certainty Success & Masculinity: how would/wood you define them?! We hope you join us for this conversation! We really enjoyed it. You can check out Goodwood Audio on instagram, @goodwoodaudio
S2 · E6
Nov 27, 2025 · 1 hr 8 min
FOR ART'S SAKE
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 6 : FOR ART'S SAKE This week on the podcast, Christa and Micah chat to DJ, or dwi - a local independent artist and musician. In their conversation they explore the context surrounding dwi’s album ‘Zoo Life’, the song-writing process and some key experiences that shaped DJ’s childhood. They also dive into topics like church music, the idea of God as a loving father, art as an avenue for processing trauma, parenting, self-perception and a whole lot more! Note: please excuse some of the audio quality - as we had some technical difficulties - we appreciate you listening to this great conversation!
S2 · E5
Nov 13, 2025 · 1 hr
BAD THOUGHTS
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 5 : BAD THOUGHTS In this episode, we continue a conversation around engaging with the world - both on a personal level and technological level; we talk about some of the themes in our lives that feel complex, extremely polarized, and often plain confusing (ie politics, social and cultural dynamics) and discuss questions like “Where does our responsibility lie in all of this?” “What should we take responsible for?” “How - and why - should we seek to use our voices?” “Should we even care about politics?” This is an honest check-in for both of us which took place about 6 months ago, and though some of the views and opinions expressed in this episode have since changed, or have been further informed, we believe this conversation is still relevant and reflective of topics we believe are important to talk about.
S2 · E4
Dec 19, 2024 · 1 hr 4 min
LIGHT THE TORCH
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 4 : LIGHT THE TORCH This week on the podcast, Christa and Micah talk with Shannon - a lunar mentor, plant medicine facilitator, and entrepreneur. She shares memories and pivotal moments from her spiritual journey, reflecting on: Growing up immersed in evangelical Christianity Questions that were always present but never fully answered Working for YWAM and participating in overseas missionary trips Leaving Church altogether The importance of paying attention to your intuition Jesus, the ultimate shaman? The spiritual benefits of plant medicine Facilitating plant circles and helping others heal Shannon can be found online @themodernhustle.ca
S2 · E3
Dec 5, 2024 · 1 hr 17 min
GOOD SOUL
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP 3 : GOOD SOUL What is the difference between a Pastor and a Spiritual Director? What could it look like to engage with our spirituality outside of a church system and all the politics that come with it? How do we cultivate a nourishing spiritual community, or companionship, when we may have been harmed by a previous religious community? This week on the podcast, Christa and Micah chat with Samuel Fagan, a spiritual director, husband, father, and ex-pastor from Sydney, Australia. In this conversation, we reflect on the following: Sam’s upbringing and family dynamic His years as a pastor at Hillsong Church How both Micah and Sam felt when their Senior pastor suddenly resigned How Sam found his way into Spiritual Directing Navigating church trauma and evolving belief systems
S2 · E2
Nov 8, 2024 · 1 hr 7 min
SPACE FOR GRIEF
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP2 : SPACE FOR GRIEF Nat is an Australian-born photographer, designer, and mother to three beautiful children. Tragically, in 2020 she lost her husband of 13 years in a freak accident, followed by the loss of her beloved Dad four months later due to cancer. This week on the podcast, Micah and Christa sit down with her to talk about the magnitude of those experiences, and how she has learned to continue walking forward after such devastating loss. Conversation covers: The importance of making space for grief and how we can understand it better Widow - holding a new identity and facing some of the social stigma surrounding it Parenting alone after losing a spouse Dealing with the expectations and projections of those in your community Navigating “widow’s fire” - the complexity of finding love and companionship again after loss
S2 · E1
Oct 24, 2024 · 45 min
WHERE ARE WE NOW?
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S2 EP1 : WHERE ARE WE NOW? Welcome to Season 2 of the Bad People podcast! In this episode, Christa and Micah reflect on how they both felt after recording the final episode of season one - CONFESSIONS - and where they’re at now. They explore what the title ‘Bad People’ means to them, what it could represent on a wider scale, and talk about how looking at the uncomfortable or conflicting parts of ourselves can actually cause our spiritual parameters to expand, rather than contract. They discuss the question “how do we be (and stay) authentic in a world that is constantly trying to mold us?” and how it is potentially at the heart of this project, and also chat about guests they will be holding conversations with over the course of season 2!
S1 · E10
May 30, 2024 · 1 hr 9 min
CONFESSION
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP10 : CONFESSION Trigger warning: suicide, abortion, strong language In this final episode of season 1, Micah and Christa revisit the original BAD PEOPLE theme of confession. Christa talks candidly about what unraveled for her after the affair - the ending of her marriage, a subsequent relationship - and goes into detail about the loneliness and confusion she’s faced in the aftermath of everything. She shares some of the choices she’s made in slowly trying to find her way forward again, how these have been perceived in various ways by those around her, and how some of these choices have led to much deeper, necessary realizations about her own identity and self-worth.
S1 · E9
May 25, 2024 · 57 min
LOVE, ACTUALLY
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP9 : LOVE, ACTUALLY This week, Micah and Christa discuss love. What does it look and feel like? And how has learning to love themselves impacted everything else? We look at the truth and reality that one can only love others to the extent they love themselves - which sometimes felt counterintuitive (especially in the church context of sacrificial love). We delve into the concept that love is defined differently and also experienced in many different forms. We questioned what true love, actually feels like - and if mutual understanding, respect, equality, and freedom were important? We hope that you join us this week in examining our lives for evidence of love or the lack thereof - and the deep knowledge that we can choose to be curious about cultivating a life of love in the here and now.
S1 · E8
May 16, 2024 · 1 hr 4 min
NO, THANKS
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP8 : NO, THANKS Trigger warning - anxiety Boundaries. We hear this word a lot these days. But when is “saying no” actually necessary? And what does it look or feel like to implement boundaries within our relationships and communities? In this episode, Micah and Christa discuss times they've both failed and succeeded in setting boundaries, how ‘boundaries with church’ (or work) can be such a gray area to navigate, how cultural perceptions of selfishness impact our understanding of boundaries, and ultimately - how putting them in place requires a certain level of self-reflection and awareness.
S1 · E7
May 9, 2024 · 39 min
NOTHING LEFT
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP7 : NOTHING LEFT This week on the podcast, Micah and Christa talk about our collective human need for belonging, and how this natural desire can sometimes lead us to places of exploitation and burnout within our “chosen” communities. We talk about how we realized when this was happening to us personally, what it felt like, and how subtly it seems to occur. We ask questions such as: when does the emotional, financial and physical sacrifice that church often requires of us become too great? Are we actually committed to making space for authenticity, equality and true spiritual growth within our communities, or is our participation - and the participation of others - simply being used to benefit “the system”, and a select few?
S1 · E6
May 2, 2024 · 55 min
FREE WILL
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP6 : FREE WILL In this episode of BAD PEOPLE, Micah and Christa discuss their thoughts on autonomy & self-governance and how that intersects with our basic human right to exist and think our own thoughts. They spend time reflecting on how, at a time, their inner worlds were at odds with the teaching around them - and how they started to find the confidence to even start to hold on to the thoughts they were thinking. As Christa & Micah experienced firsthand, when one can’t even identify why they believe the things that they do - or why they don’t feel safe in their own minds - then this can cause massive damage to one's psyche. They continue to wrestle with the then fear-based worry about expressing these thoughts as their own - with the result being labeled bad being one of the core issues at hand.
S1 · E5
Apr 25, 2024 · 1 hr 2 min
F*CKED UP
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP5: F*CKED UP Trigger warning - domestic abuse. In this episode of BAD PEOPLE, Micah reflects on the challenging dynamic between her parents, growing up, and the explosive relational interactions she and her siblings were often exposed to. She describes the feelings she experienced, witnessing one of her siblings being “disciplined” in a very damaging way, and how this has impacted her own parenting. Christa shares a story from her own mothering experience, where an impulsive response to one of her kids led to some painful realizations.
S1 · E4
Apr 18, 2024 · 1 hr 12 min
NOT OKAY
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1, EP 4: NOT OKAY Trigger warning - conversations around the topic of abuse. This week on the podcast, Micah and Christa talk about how they acknowledged (or ultimately realized) they were not okay at various points in their lives, plus the many benefits of therapy and how this has played a significant role for each of them. They discuss some of the hard, uncomfortable truths they’ve had to confront about themselves in order to move forward, and how peace isn’t always represented by an absence of tension.
S1 · E3
Apr 11, 2024 · 30 min
ORIGIN STORY: MK
BAD PEOPLE PODCAST // S1 EP 3: ORIGIN STORIES: MK In this episode, Micah shares her cultural heritage, her family of origin dynamics, and the influence Christianity had on her childhood and teenage years. She talks about her parents separating at age 13, then leaving home at 19 and moving from NZ to Australia to begin a new chapter; she also recalls some of the experiences that initially raised doubts about the faith she was raised to adhere to.

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