The Trail and Error Podcast

Jay Grady and Lewis Ryan

Welcome to Trail & Error.

The podcast where together we'll explore the world of trail running, capturing the diverse perspectives of a range of guests, from professional and amateur athletes, event and race directors, coaches and scientists. Learning what works, what doesn’t, and having a few laughs along the way.

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20 episodes
Updated July 7
Explicit

Episodes20

Newest first

July 7 · 1 hr 3 min
#105 Arc of Attrition by UTMB 2027 Preview
We're joined in this episode by Sam Calvert the UTMB UK Event Director and by Andrew 'Ferg' Ferguson, Race Director of the Arc of Attrition to discuss changes to the next edition of this beloved race. In a really wide ranging and open chat we discussed course changes to the Arc 100 and new races and the new race finish. We also talk about UTS and lessons learned from the changes there along with the new Skyline Scotland race and youth events. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay , Lewis and Matt
June 6 · 52 min
#104 The Bishop of Newcastle - Helen-Ann Hartley
Helen-Ann Hartley is the current Bishop of Newcastle and, as a member of the 'Lords Spiritual', has a seat in the UK House of Lords. She's also about to take on her first ultramarathon, the 43 mile Sprint Summer North race. She joins me and Matt to cover her running journey to this point and how her life and work have influenced and cemented her love of running, particularly as a large portion of the Spine course passes through her parish in the north of England. So please join us for a very interesting episode where we find out about her friendship with Keith Dunn - the voice of the Barkley Marathons on Twitter - her experience at the London marathon in 2026 and more surprising facts about this inspiring woman. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Matt
May 31 · 1 hr 1 min
#103 Ian Sharman
Episode 103 We were lucky enough to grab an hour with 4 x Leadville Trail 100 winner and coach Ian Sharman ahead of the release of his much anticipated first book 'The Art of Ultrarunning'. We chat about the highs and lows of his long running career and why mistakes are such and important part of the journey in endurance sports. Ian's book will probably become a bit of a running bible in short order as he weaves a narrative of his own experiences and that of some of the most successful runners of the past 15 years to create a treasure trove of knowledge that runners of all levels will gain something from. We also discuss common runner problems such as why obsessing about equipment maybe isn't the best plan and what runners should focus on instead. You can find Ian at: www.sharmanultra.com The Art of Ultrarunning is available to pre-order here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Ultrarunning-Strategies-Long-Distance-Runners/dp/1718252439 and for social media follow: @sharmanain As always, once we hit record the time flies by so we hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis
February 27 · 1 hr 2 min
#102 Sha Khan
Episode 102 Sha Khan Visually Impaired Ultra Trail Runner Imagine you're taking on the Arc of Attrition. Wild weather, technical trail, hundreds of other runners all moving at different speeds and all funneling down the narrow coast path with you. Now imagine all of that and you're visually impaired! Meet Sha Khan, a visually impaired ultra trail runner who took on and completed this year's Arc of Attrition 12 by UTMB in January. In this episode we dive into the story of how Sha, who wasn't a runner before losing his eyesight, discovered purpose and freedom through trail running. I'm joined again by Matt Whyman, friend and author of 'Failure is not an option' , as Sha explains the nuts and bolts of how running tethered to a guide works, from learning to walk, to a 5k, to the Arc. There's no stopping him now as he'll soon be taking on the mountain trails around Mt. Blanc on MCC! Inspiring, brave and brimming with energy, I hope you enjoy this chat with Sha and if YOU fancy being part of his attempt on the Arc 100 in 2027 listen to learn how to get involved as a running guide! Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis (and Matt)
February 27 · 1 hr 5 min
#101 TrailFam
Episode 101 I'm joined on this episode by Danny Stokes, founder of TrailFam, and my friend and author of 'Failure is an option' Matt Whyman as co-host. What fires someone up enough to launch a charity? Danny's experience of lockdown vs. his students' experience was the catalyst to set about bringing change in how access to green spaces and nature is provisioned for young people. We dive into the nuts and bolts of how this inspiring charity helps young people increase their fitness, explore the outdoors and also improve their future life pathways. We also chat about the future of the charity and its new expansion to my home county of Cornwall as well as plans beyond 2026. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis (and Matt)
January 21 · 1 hr 3 min
#100 Mercedes Siegle-Gaither
For our 100th Episode I had the pleasure of chatting to the super talented Mercedes Siegle-Gaither. We're clearly on full Arc of Attrition mode now as we're just 48 hours away from the start of the 100 race and it was so much fun hearing about her prep and chatting too about the race, her entry into the sport and the comparisons between north American and European trails and where the differences are. We talk about her race at UTS and how she and her kit handled the jagged Eryri peaks and blistering heat during the race. And we cover burning topics such as who makes the best danish pastries and whether poles are a good idea and how pole etiquette should be mandatory training. Find out more about Mercedes on her IG feed - @theslimcede Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis #arcofattritionbyutmb
January 20 · 58 min
#99 Sabrina Stanley
Sabrina Stanley joins me on this episode as we look towards her upcoming participation in the 2026 Arc of Attrition by UTMB. For Sabrina the podium and quite often first place came regularly from 2016 onwards. A 4th place finish in Leadville was quickly followed by a 3rd place in States in 2017, followed by taking the win at Hardrock the year. After the race world emerged from the pandemic she went onto take another win on her return to Hardrock in 2021. From thereon European races including a 2nd at UTS 100M became regular occurrences in her race calendar and two top ten finishes, 9th and then 7th at UTMB came in '23 and '24 respectively. In the midst of preparing for her return to Chamonix to improve that position further came a cancer diagnosis. After multiple surgeries including a hysterectomy she emerged stronger and closed out her 'worst and best' year by marrying Tim! Now in recovery, and with her most recent treatment only months ago she's getting back on the horse with her first race, the 100 mile Arc. We also chat about her sponsorship as an OnlyFans Athlete and how they supported her with their innovative approach to sponsorship and the freedoms that affords her. I think this runners positive mental attitude will truly astound you and I think she's got her best running still ahead of her. I really hope you enjoy this episode! Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis Image credit - Phil Mckenzie
January 18 · 59 min
#98 Jamie Stephenson
Ep. 98 Jamie Stephenson We're delighted to welcome Jamie back to the podcast. Well known throughout the Cornish trail running community, Jamie has returned to his home county after a couple of years enjoying the mountain trails of Portugal and after smashing his previous outing on the old Arc 50 and setting many records on the race scene he's now taking on his first 100 miler in the shape of... the Arc of Attrition by UTMB. As the current champion of the Arc, for a few days more at least, Lewis has a unique perspective to what it takes to top the podium on the new format being the first to win the mens race since the it joined the UTMB World Series in 2025. We chat about the upcoming race and cover tactics, course changes, and of course kit. With less than a week to go, the start line looms large now and we find out what goes through the minds of those standing behind the tape at the front of the pack. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis
January 17 · 53 min
#97 Charlotte Fisher
Ep. 97 Charlotte Fisher Charlotte joins me to talk about her explosion onto the race scene with podium after podium over the past few years. With the Arc of Attrition by UTMB 100 her next race it was an ideal time to chat and find out more about her running journey and winning her first EVER race which just happened to be a 100km trail race! We dive into the tough lessons and successes, the races that have gone to plan and what it takes to grind out a finish when the wheels have fallen off. Expectation of success is a pressure that can be generated both externally and internally and imposter syndrome is a common trait among many runners at the sharp end and Charlotte talks about this and the steps she's taken to build resilience in this area going forward Every now and again you can say you've seen the future and after chatting with Charlotte on this episode I'm 100% sure we'll be seeing a lot more from this runner over the coming years. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis
Nov 27, 2025 · 1 hr 6 min
#96 Arc of Attrition 2026
Ep. 96 Arc of Attrition 2026 We're delighted to chat to Ferg and Jane about the upcoming Arc of Attrition and get under the hood on changes to this edition of the race. With 4 race distances over the 3 days there's a lot to manage and of course as always with this race the weather in the depths of a Cornish winter will play a huge part in the success of failure of the participants. With Lewis topping the podium previously on the Arc 50 and Arc 100 he's taking on the Arc 25 this year and we get the lowdown on the course changes and changes to the race starts, finishes and updates on the improved race village logistics. Everything points to a another fantastic event this January and with less than 2 months to that first start at Coverack, both the runners and race organisers are watching the clock tick down as they work frantically to prepare for another Arc of Attrition by UTMB! Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis
Oct 2, 2025 · 51 min
#95 James Elson
Ep. 95 James Elson For anyone in the UK endurance scene this man shouldn't really need an introduction. He's quite possibly one of the most influential figures of trail running in the UK over the last decade. James is the RD and founder of Centurion Running, host of the British Ultra Running Podcast and is a member of the ‘Mountain and Trail’ strategy group at UK Athletics. We chat about talent spotting, TDG and much, much more in this episode. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis #trailanderror #centurionrunning
Sep 28, 2025 · 1 hr 7 min
#94 David Parrish - Winner DBR 2025
Ep. 94 David Parrish DBR What a pleasure to welcome back David to chat about winning the 2025 Dragons Back Race. This brute of a race covers almost 240 miles of gnarly mountain terrains and to finish you must run the equivalent of sea level to the summit of Everest TWICE in 6 days. What went well? What didn't? There were navigation issues, a time penalty and changes to the route to contend with but ultimately an overall podium win. Hear more in this episode of Trail and Error. If you like more Dragons Back content check out our back catalogue which includes day to day recordings from the 2023 event. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis ⁠https://www.instagram.com/dragonsbackrace⁠ #trailanderror #dragonsbackrace
Aug 25, 2025 · 1 hr 5 min
#93 Holly Wootten
Ep. 93 Holly Wootten Holly joins me and new co-host Lewis Ryan to talk about her upcoming return to Dragons Back and her previous appearance in the scorching heat of 2023 which served as a (very long) recce run for a more competitive attempt in 2025. We talk about her entry into the sport and how she was the runner her crew were searching for, which makes more sense when you hear the story! Now a member of the Altra running team, we discuss how that relationship works for her and how it came about. Of course we also hear about her shoe choices for the upcoming Dragons Back Race and dip into some potential race strategies she may employ. And we chat about how she suffered by running herself to physical destruction at OCC, the plan to take revenge in 2026, and the all important 'lessons learned'. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay and Lewis ⁠https://www.instagram.com/hollywootten⁠ ⁠https://www.instagram.com/altrarunning⁠ ⁠https://www.instagram.com/dragonsbackrace⁠ #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #dragonsback #dragonsbackrace
Jul 29, 2025 · 1 hr 4 min
#92 Sarah Kelly
Episode 92 Sarah Kelly is a scientist and endurance athlete who turns up the dial on enthusiasm to 10 in just about all aspects of her life. Her adventures are what happens when you take a 'can do' attitude and mix it with a 'give anything a go' view of the world. On this episode we chat about her 'Puddle Buckley', the 'Frog Graham' and so much more including top tips on midges and mosquitoes. You might want to put your wetsuit on and pop in a snorkel for this one! Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay Find more of Sarah's adventure here: https://www.instagram.com/enlivenuktri #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #running #swimrun #froggraham #puddlebuckley
Jun 27, 2025 · 1 hr 1 min
#91 Scilly 60: Race Special
Episode 91 Scilly 60: Race Special 5 Islands, 60k, 6 races, 3 boats and 150 runners. Sounds straightforward? Welcome to the Scilly 60, brainchild of our last guest Wez Swain and his Scilly 60 Events company. Basically a 60k sprint which includes 5 boat transfers (some short, others up to 45 minutes) where runners charge around some of the UK's most picturesque islands in the hope of beating the clock and not missing the boat. Those not quick enough are given a coconut and a volleyball to name and might be collected by Wez or adopted by locals until next years race. There are no guaranteed finishes on this race and as I found out there are plenty of things to trip you up, literally and metaphorically. I'm joined by Wez himself on this episode as we discuss the ups and downs of the Scilly 60, a race which involves a lot of fun punctuated by some running! I hope you enjoy it. Check out Wez and Scilly 60 Events here: ⁠⁠https://scilly60.co.uk⁠⁠ and you can find the news piece we mentioned on there too. and you'll find him on instagram here: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/scilly60/⁠⁠ Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #running #swimrun
Apr 26, 2025 · 1 hr 2 min
#90 Wez Swain
#90 Wez Swain What an absolute pleasure this was to chat with race director and proud Scillonian Wez Swain. Based on the Isles of Scilly, 28 miles of the south west coast of Cornwall Wez, already an accomplished 'swim run' competitor took the bull by the horns and created the Scilly 60 Events company to showcase the beautiful running environment these isles provide. We chat about his experiences of the Arc of Attrition and his solo swim out into the Atlantic to reach a remote lighthouse. His enthusiasm is infectious and it's absolutely no surprise that his events have become incredibly popular and a much loved part of the running community calendar. His pride and appreciation for his home on this spectacular group of isles shines through too. I get a little tongue tied at the beginning of this episode and I must admit I was a little nervous for some reason before our chat, but Wez has that calming effect that all good race directors have and after a stutter and a laugh we were back on track for a really enjoyable chat. I hope you enjoy it too. Check out Wez and Scilly 60 Events here: https://scilly60.co.uk and you can find the news piece we mentioned on there too. and you'll find him on instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/scilly60/ Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #running
Mar 18, 2025 · 1 hr 5 min
#89 David Parrish
Ex Royal Marine David Parrish joins me alongside a new guest co-host, Jodie Gauld, to talk multi-day adventures, his victory at the 2023 Cape Wrath Ultra and how he's preparing for the 2025 Dragon's Back Race. Alongside his record breaking companion, 'Munro' the spaniel, David has been running and hiking in the mountains in his native Scotland since leaving the military and his skills in the mountains showed with a dominating performance on the CWU, but he's taking a slightly different approach now he's taking on the Dragon. From humble running beginnings, recording his runs with pencil and paper, he's exploded onto the UK endurance scene as an all round and versatile athlete placing 3rd overall on the 2024 Northern Traverse. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #running
Feb 21, 2025 · 1 hr 6 min
#88 Max King
#88 Max King A resident of Oregon and ‘Dragon Tamer’, running legend and coach Max King joins me and guest co-host Lewis Ryan on this episode. We talk about his 2024 DBR win, taking on locals in their own back yard and the narrowing differences between race experiences around world. We even got the scoop on Max’s upcoming attempt at the Barkley Marathons and his tips for on the go repair and recovery in the middle of multi day races. Find more of Max here: https://www.instagram.com/@maxkingor https://www.maxkingtrc.com/ Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay
Feb 12, 2025 · 59 min
#87 Shane Ohly
I’ve been itching to have Shane back on the show for a number of reasons. The foremost of these was his completion of the Dragon’s Back in a one’r, creating an FKT for this iconic route. It’s also the first real ‘3 peat’ achievement in appearing as a guest on the pod’! We chatted about his sub 24 hour finish on January’s Arc of Attrition by UTMB 100 miler and discuss how his experience as both a competitor and viewpoint as a race director measured up and how the first race under UTMB banner went. I’m also asked a question that left me lost for words for the first time in 87 episodes! It’s a great chat about the ‘went rights’ and ‘went wrongs’ which is why I love doing these interviews so much. Finally we talked about my new project, Ginger Goat Events which will touring the UK this year and why Ourea chose to become our primary sponsor. Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #toetheline #running
Jan 31, 2025 · 58 min
#86 Noor van der Veen
#86 Noor van der Veen On this episode I speak to ultra runner and mountaineer Noor van der Veen. Noor turned up with an awesome performance on this year's 100 mile Arc of Attrition by UTMB taking 1st place in the women's race comfortably. As always we cover a whole host of topics including race recce's and tactics, opinions on the race and the realities of female participation in the world of trail ultras. As humble as she is talented it was an absolute pleasure to chat with her for an hour despite the fact we both came down with colds last night. Special shout out to Lily the cat who provided perimeter security for Noor during our interview. Outstanding job Lily x Thanks again to all of you for listening. If you have a moment please, like, subscribe and if you have a few seconds more, perhaps write a short review. It's all a great help to us in growing the audience and is very much appreciated! Jay @rab.equipment @rab.benelux @noor.vanderveen #trailanderror #distancerunner #26point2 #fitnessmotivation #runningmotivation #marathon #ultratraining #ultrarunner #runnerofinstagram #runnerslife #instarunners #runhappy #runnercommunity #runningcommunity #iruntrails #trailrunning #trailrunner #type2fun #arcofattrition #dutchtrailrunners #toetheline #running