The Fourth Curtain

Octodad's Philip Tibitoski Grows with His Gamers

Founder and CEO of Young Horses Phil Tibitoski joined us to explain how you can succeed without greenlights! Their student project Octodad went on to IGF fame and solid sales, followed by the charming Bug Snax. We talk knowing when to ship and the art of fumblecore - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:08:27] Intro: Phillip Tibitoski / Phil Tibbs [0:10:29] The Secret to 15 Years: Self-Publishing, Weird Ideas & Happy Teams Alex asks Phil the core question: how do you sustain an indie studio for 15 years? Phil credits avoiding traditional publishers, staying creatively strange, and actively asking each team member what skill they want to grow with every new project. [0:22:28] The Glorious Nine: Forming the Studio and Betting on Yourselves Phil recounts the basement-of-a-hostel meeting at GDC 2011 where the original 18-person student team voted on who would go all-in on making Young Horses a real company. [0:24:19] How Phil Became CEO (And Why He Keeps Getting Re-Elected) Alex asks how Phil ended up running the studio. Phil reveals that Young Horses votes on officers at an annual meeting, that he landed in the role partly because no one else wanted it, then discovered a genuine love for the business and marketing side. [0:25:59] Learning to Run a Studio: The Kindness of Other Developers Phil describes how he learned everything — profit sharing, platform deals, dev kits, legal structures — by relentlessly asking other indie developers who had done it before, including the team at Gaijin Games (now Choice Provisions), who invited them to a studio party and shared their war stories. [0:39:24] Octodad to Bugsnax: Six Years, a PS5 Launch, and the Sophomore Slump Phil unpacks the six-year journey from Octodad: Dadliest Catch to Bugsnax — including the fear of the sophomore slump, spending 3 years figuring out how the game actually played, and the strategic decision to align launch with the Playstation 5 release. [0:59:43] Advice for the Next Generation: Context Is Everything, Luck Finds the Prepared Alex asks how Phil would think about starting a studio in today's landscape. Phil cautions students not to copy Young Horses' exact playbook (it wouldn't work now) and instead advocates for reading your unique context, diversifying interests beyond games, and positioning yourself so that luck can find you. [0:09:08] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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The Spiky Strategies of StarCraft's Rob Pardo

Our guest was chief creative officer at Blizzard and helped drive some of the biggest videogames ever, like StarCraft and World of Warcraft. Now CEO of Bonfire Studios, he's making a new title, Arkheron. We discuss smurfing, game seeds and cracking the art style - this week! TIMESTAMPS: [0:04:58] Intro: Rob Pardo [0:09:07] From Retail to Roller Hockey: How Rob Got Into Blizzard Rob traces his path from managing a Software Etc. store and game testing at Interplay to first meeting the Blizzard team playing roller hockey; talking about what skills put him on Blizzard's radar. [0:13:14] First Job at Interplay: Starting as a Game Tester Rob explains how what got him into Interplay's QA department, how he quickly rose to assistant line producer, and how his early love of arcades, D&D, and computer games made him pursue jobs where he actually wanted to be. [0:26:28] The Warcraft II Bet That Got Rob Noticed CEO Brian Fargo bet on Rob in a best-of-three Warcraft II match against Interplay's best player. Rob breaks down his strategic thinking round by round — grunt rush, map selection, navy maps — and how winning that match, plus his other experience, built his early reputation at Blizzard. [0:31:29] Finding His Footing: Designing StarCraft From QA Rob describes how he slowly built credibility through sharp balance feedback, writing the first build orders that were turned directly into scripts, and designing multiplayer maps like Lost Temple — all before the design role even officially existed. [0:58:35] Building World of Warcraft: The Early Vision and Art Style Breakthrough The hosts ask how WoW got started and Rob explains the team restructuring after Warcraft III, the vision for a seamless open world, worldbuilding on a whiteboard, and the accidental art style breakthrough that made everything click. [1:11:52] The Blizzard Design Values: Easy to Learn, Impossible to Master Alex asks Rob to share the top Blizzard design rules he developed and codified. Rob walks through several, including the story behind the WoW rest system, which he reframed after feedback from the community. [1:17:08] Starting Over: What It's Like to Build Bonfire Studios from Scratch Alex asks what it felt like to leave the top of the industry and start fresh. Rob reflects on watching Blizzard's teams slow down as they grew, why smaller focused teams produce better work, and his conviction that putting the team first is the only sustainable path to great games. [1:29:31] How Bonfire Chose Its Game: The Game Seed Process Rob details the structured creative process Bonfire used to select their game: “game seed” pitches, Post-it Note voting, 2-3 week concept sprints, and 1 question that produced a near-unanimous answer and became Archon. [1:42:12] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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You Don't Know Jack's Mike Bilder Laughs Out Loud

If your hilarious party game is laced with snark you know the work of this week's guest, Jackbox CEO Mike Bilder. One of the legion of the Midway diaspora, he saw the transition from coin-op to console. We discuss drive vs crunch, streaming platforms, and the human touch - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:04:38] Intro: Mike Bilder [0:06:25] From Learn Television to Jackbox: The Full Company History Mike explains Jackbox’s origin story; he traces it from Jellyvision to You Don't Know Jack to Jackbox Games. [0:10:10] AI, Writers, and the Jackbox Principles: What Makes Jackbox Uniquely Human Mike explains their commitment to human-written comedy and game writers in a world of AI. [0:15:19] Early Career: From Motorola to Midway Hosts ask about Mike's first jobs; he shares his CS background, persistence breaking into game development, and meeting his wife on a Motorola work trip. [0:32:02] Nine Years at Midway: Coin-Op, NFL Blitz, and the Politics of an NFL License Mike covers what it was like at Midway, the culture, a forced pivot, and ultimately losing the NFL license. [0:45:00] The Art of the Pivot: How Jackbox Thinks About Innovation and What's Next Mike discusses the pattern of reinvention across Midway and Jackbox, staying fresh with party packs, and third-party publishing. [0:51:02] Platforms, Netflix, and the Race to Be Everywhere: Jackbox's Distribution Strategy Mike explains the licensing model, the platform expansion, streaming ambitions, and the Twitch audience mode origin story. [1:04:52] Mike's Superpower: From Engineer to Producer to CEO Alex asks Mike to name his superpower; Mike reflects on problem-solving, leading from passion, and 18 years of bringing joy through party games. [0:06:58] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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It's Raining Technology with Nexon's Owen Mahoney

We have an insight-packed and hopeful discussion with Owen Mahoney, CEO of Maplestory's Nexon. This Choplifter fan went on to acquire JAMDAT and DICE for EA, then saw the future with Embark. We discuss forever games, where stories come from and the huge growth coming - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:00:00] Intro: Owen Mahoney [0:10:22] Medium shifts favor beginners Owen explains why every major technology shift benefits newcomers. [0:19:33] An “unusual background” Owen describes his and Nexon’s “unusual backgrounds,” and how they got started. [0:33:23] Most pitches are a product problem, not a marketing problem "90% of the deals that I looked at to build a game... look very similar to something that was already out there in the market. So a lot of what people are calling a marketing problem are in fact a product problem." [0:42:37] Tried to buy Nexon three times at EA Owen reveals he tried to acquire Nexon three times while at EA, and eventually ended up joining them as CFO instead — including nearly landing Riot Games before being outbid by Tencent. [0:48:23] The "forever franchise" thesis behind Embark Owen explains the concept of "forever franchises" — games that don't have to peak and decline — and how that philosophy was central to their success and investments. [0:52:55] The industry inverts good game development Owen argues that big-budget game development is built backwards: studios front-load expensive art to get green-lights, while leaving the actual "find the fun" iteration — the most important part — until the end. [1:04:11] New technology always creates new kinds of game makers Owen's closing argument on the industry's future: "Every generation comes with its new set of innovators." [1:08:40] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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The Guts of Indie with Animal Well's Billy Basso

We're hyped to talk secrets with Billy Basso, creator of the award-winning smash Animal Well. Beginning with educational and medical games he went on to solo develop Animal Well, which delivers a huge game in less than 40 MB. Surgery, celebrity and an ARG - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:00:00] Intro: Billy Basso An introduction to Billy Basso, developer of Animal Well. [0:07:54] Choosing film school over game dev Billy reveals he went to film school because he "deep down wanted to make video games" but didn't think it was a viable career path — setting up the arc of his whole story. [0:12:28] Checking out the entire company repo: Billy’s first game job On his first day at Phosphor Games, Billy accidentally locked every art asset the company had ever made by checking out the entire source control depot [0:15:30] How making games for doctors shaped his design philosophy Billy reflects that working on educational games deeply informed how he thinks about game design: what has the player learned, and are you testing them along the way? [0:21:17] Mobile games felt like casino design After years making monetization-heavy mobile games, Billy describes realizing he was building "a casino game, not a video game,” which became his motivation to make Animal Well. [0:34:57] Animal Well started as a side project at Level X Billy reveals he was already prototyping Animal Well during his Level X job interview, getting up a few hours early every morning for years to chip away at it before going to work. [0:45:43] Tunic raised the bar and stressed him out When Tunic launched while he was mid-development, Billy saw major parallels to what he was building. While it was inspiring, it was also intimidating. [0:51:21] Cold-emailing Dan Adelman changed everything After watching a documentary about Axiom Verge, Billy sent a cold email to industry veteran Dan Adelman (one of the only times in his life he's done that), which became the turning point for getting Animal Well to market. [1:06:25] Dunkey's announcement brought 100K wishlists in a day When Dunkey announced Animal Well as Bigmode's first game, it generated 100,000 Steam wishlists in a single day — after Billy had spent years slowly building to 25,000. [1:16:27] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Patrick Söderlund and the Raiders of the Arc

We kick off Season 4 with Patrick Söderlund, CEO/founder of Embark Studios and maker of the hit Arc Raiders. Former head of DICE and Battlefield at EA, he found faster ways to build. We discuss owing the community, AI, and incredible value - this week! [00:00:00] Intro: Patrick Söderlund [00:13:23] The recipe for games people want to play Patrick explains that the core motivation isn't money, it's finding the recipe that makes people want to come back. He'd go stand in midnight launch lines just to feel what players felt. [00:18:25] 12 years at EA and why he left Patrick describes staying longer than planned, and ultimately leaving because he missed being close to the creative and building process, not because of the company. [00:21:22] What was missing: the building process Patrick explains the inner dialogue of walking away from a senior exec role – he knew he'd drifted too far from creation and needed to get back to it. [00:23:12] Battlefront II and its launch Patrick talks about a game that deserved a better launch, while noting it's still beloved today and holds up visually. [00:28:17] The 100X pipeline challenge at Embark Rather than trying to make things 10X better (which just leads to patching old tools), Patrick challenged his team to think 100X faster — forcing them to throw out all assumptions and reinvent their content pipeline from scratch. [00:39:19] Why Arc Raiders uses robots, not humanoids A deliberate design decision and the production cycle in action: how robots let the team hide quirks and unexpected behavior, discovering players don't have preconceived notions of how a machine "should" move. This also drove deep investment in reinforcement learning for AI enemies. [00:56:41] Patrick's measured take on AI in game development He separates automating tedious tasks from replacing creative talent, acknowledges the sensitivity around AI voices, and argues the industry needs to understand the full ecosystem before passing harsh judgment. [1:04:55] The Super Mario Bros. moment that started it all At 12 or 13, renting an NES at a gas station and discovering Super Mario Bros. gave Patrick the same sense of limitless wonder he imagines kids feel playing GTA today — and he decided right then he had to make games. [01:13:14] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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We Open the Curtain on Season Fourth

Our intrepid hosts provide a prologue to the fourth season of the podcast with a wide-ranging conversation on the state of the videogame industry. With appreciation for GDC, Resident Evil 9 and Phil Spencer, they also talk (of course) AI and signs we may finally be exiting the trough - this week! Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Grade Expectations 2025

For our end of year episode Aaron and Alex reflect on the year and a raft of topics in videogame dev: Steam Deck vs Switch, understanding how AI will work for dev, Netflix's place and "successful to nice" ratios! Devils and Dungeonauts within - this week! Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

Live Long and Prosper with Amazon's Christoph Hartmann

VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann [00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMG Christoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games [00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the Future Christoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead. [00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative Powerhouse He talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands. [00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading Overnight Christoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust. [00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates Studios He breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back. [00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and Opportunity Christoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs. [00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service Futures After a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding. [01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks” At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader. [01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between Role Christoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat. [01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power Demand Alex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Trip Hawkins, the Electronic Artist

We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private. [00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought? The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts. [00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s. [00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset. [00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success. [00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time. [01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry. [01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and Reinvention Trip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Ghost of Yotei's Mud Blood and Steel, with Sucker Punch

It's a one-two move with Sucker Punch's Chris Zimmerman and Brian Fleming. Now shipping Ghost of Yotei, they tell us about leaving Microsoft for Sony and becoming a gamedev powerhouse. Tales of exact pitches and being great instead of good - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Chris Zimmerman & Brian Fleming of Sucker Punch Productions An introduction to Chris and Brian, co-founders of Sucker Punch Productions (Sly Cooper, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima). [00:08:23] “Name it Anything But Sucker Punch” Brian and Chris talk about the founding of Sucker Punch and how the studio got its name. [00:14:06] Early Days at Microsoft Brian and Chris reminisce on learning how to run a business, trial and error, and early days at Microsoft. [00:21:04] Growing Up in the “Right” Place Brian and Chris trade stories of growing up and working in tech in the early 90s. [00:27:54] Leaving Microsoft and Starting Sucker Punch Chris and Brian talk about leaving Microsoft, building a team from scratch, making their first games, and landing a deal with Ubisoft. [00:37:17] The Silver Lining After a release riddled with mistakes, the team lands a first party deal for their next game series, Sly Cooper. [00:47:28] Was Sony the Right Choice? Chris and Brian discuss the advantage of having a stable, long-term relationship with your publisher and building trust. [00:51:19] How Ghost of Tsushima Started From an alpha that never got approval, to developing one of the fastest-selling first-party PlayStation titles and a BAFTA-winning game. [01:01:50] The Studio Now vs. Then and COVID’s Impact Releasing 3 months into the COVID-19 pandemic, Chris and Brian review how they adjusted their plans and how the studio has evolved over time. [1:10:27] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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The Origin Stories of Elder Scrolls' Paul Sage

We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week! This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised. Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage [00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the Name Paul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation. [00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit? A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive. [00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a Pandemic Paul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense. [00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with Games From playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online. [00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the Industry Thanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team [00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time Low Paul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team. [00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining Confidence After leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games. [01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken Industry Paul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward. [1:09:04] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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How to Make an Atari Sandwich, with David Gardner

David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Meet David Gardner An introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor. [00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to Atari David Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network. [00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple II David shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions. [00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to California David talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up. [00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry. [00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices Internationally Behind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years. [00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back Home David touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued. [00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up Call David unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing. [1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture Partners The journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more). [1:12:18] Outro: Closing Remarks Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Indie Megabooth's Digital Nomad Kelly Wallick

This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie Games Kelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions. [00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career Path Discover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community. [00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the Industry Kelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium. [00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases Worldwide Learn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators. [00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and Survival Kelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry. [00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting Developers Hear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers. [00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games Funding Kelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions. [01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying Authentic Kelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Fallout's Feargus Urquhart Stares into the Abyss

Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New Beginnings Feargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds. [00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of Time Feargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today. [00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian Years Hear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival. [00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline Pressure Feargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines. [00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPG Discover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs. [00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game Studios Feargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects. [00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi Exploration Learn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities. [01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks Early Feargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Making Myst a World with Rand and Robyn Miller

Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design. [00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups. [00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade. [00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D. [00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience. [00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later. [00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds. [01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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World of Warcraft's Seth Sivak Tips the Dealer

Our guest this week is Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard. From early years at Zynga he became Founder and CEO of Proletariat, shipping big games like Spellbreak. We discuss being an Imagineer, the three components of creative decisions and "always be pitching" - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Why Games Fail: No Audience, No Hype Seth explains how several recent games failed not from poor quality, but because they launched without building an audience—resulting in commercial flops despite decent reviews. [00:07:00] Raising $20M for Spellbreak: Inside Proletariat’s Biggest Funding Round Hear how Seth and his team secured a major investment led by Take-Two in 2019, helping scale the studio and pave the way for Spellbreak’s development and Blizzard’s later acquisition. [00:10:00] Defining the Product Manager Role in Game Development Seth shares what it meant to be a PM at Zynga during the Facebook gaming boom—managing features like a mini-CEO and driving rapid iteration cycles across live games. [00:20:00] Hug the Sloth: A “Gold Spike” Game That Taught the Basics Learn how a quirky internal prototype helped the team test monetization, push notifications, and Facebook login—building foundational tech for future projects. [00:25:00] Launch Ugly, Learn Fast: Why Early Testing Beats Polish Seth recalls releasing a graybox version of Spellbreak to tens of thousands of players—proving that testing gameplay early matters more than perfecting visuals. [00:45:00] Streamline’s Collapse: How a Twitch Partnership Nearly Killed the Studio A promising Amazon deal turned into a disaster, forcing Proletariat within 72 hours of shutdown. Seth details how they navigated this near-death experience. [00:55:00] Spellbreak’s Origins: From Magic Arrows to Spell Combinations Discover how a spark of inspiration—combining magic attacks in unexpected ways—led to the creation of Spellbreak’s core mechanic and ultimately shaped its success. [01:03:00] Discord Growth and a Viral Trailer: The Road to Acquisition After two failed term sheets, a viral trailer and massive Discord surge helped Proletariat land an Epic Games deal—fueling momentum toward Blizzard’s acquisition. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Night Street's Mac Reynolds Captures the Last Flag

Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games. [00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons. [00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra. [00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek. [00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense. [00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path. [00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing. [00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Oregon Trail's Phillip Bouchard Blazes Deadly Paths

Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations. [00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a Legendary Game Over Screen Discover how the infamous “You have died of dysentery” message became part of the 1985 version—and why it wasn’t in the original 1971 text-only release. [00:13:00] Building the Classic Version: Small Team, Big Impact Learn how a five-person team crafted the Apple II version that defined The Oregon Trail, combining educational goals with entertaining gameplay. [00:20:00] From Text to Graphics: A Full Redesign for Apple II Philip explains how the 1985 version was a complete rebuild with new code, visual assets, and expanded simulations—leaving the original codebase behind. [00:25:00] State-Owned Software: The Story of MEC and Minnesota’s Role Explore how Minnesota’s state-funded organization MEC developed and distributed The Oregon Trail, influencing early educational software nationwide. [00:36:00] Instant School Success: How Teacher Demand Took Over After initially launching only in the home market, teacher demand led to widespread adoption of The Oregon Trail in classrooms across North America. [00:41:00] Life After Oregon Trail: From Munchers to Broderbund Philip talks about his post-Oregon Trail career, including work on the Munchers series and his time at Broderbund and McGraw-Hill. [00:45:00] Writing, AI Art, and Retirement: Philip’s Current Creative Life Now retired, Philip shares his passion for writing science books, experimenting with AI art, and staying curious across new creative hobbies. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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Killer Instinct's Adam Boyes Tears Down the Walls

Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from shipping games, not just dreaming them. [00:08:00] From Farm Town to QA: Adam’s Unlikely Start at EA Sports Hear how Adam landed his first job in games testing NBA Live 97 and FIFA 98, despite growing up in rural Canada with dreams of working on NHL games. [00:15:00] Modding Roots and BBS Culture: The Birth of a Developer Adam shares how his love for PC modding and running a Jurassic Park–themed BBS shaped his curiosity and multi-discipline approach to game development. [00:27:00] The Wild Days at Midway: Slugfest, Blitz & Studio Chaos From canceled games to f-bomb-filled meetings, Adam reflects on Midway’s raw, chaotic culture—and how it helped him grow as a producer and leader. [00:34:00] “Nemo Washi”: Building Consensus Like a Japanese Producer Adam explains the Japanese business concept of Nemo Washi, and how it shaped his leadership style—building trust, alignment, and resource sharing across teams. [00:44:00] Smashing Red Tape at PlayStation: Killing the Concept Submission Process At Sony, Adam eliminated outdated approval systems and championed indie access, unlocking millions in dev revenue and streamlining platform entry. [00:50:00] Iron Galaxy’s Secret Sauce: Co-Development with the Best in the Biz Adam discusses co-developing Skyrim, Diablo III, The Last of Us Part I, and Fortnite—and how Iron Galaxy became one of the industry’s most trusted studios. [00:56:00] Launching Vivrato: Solving the Game Industry’s Hardest Problems Now at Vivrato, Adam's mission is to help devs at all levels—focusing on industry-wide challenges with a personalized, high-impact advisory approach. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

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