The Argument

Canceling (and un-canceling) historic heroes

Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias debate which historical figures deserve to be canceled and which shouldn’t have been. With the Trump administration pushing to restore statues of figures removed during the “Great Wokening,” they ask what a statue, a holiday, or a name on a school is actually for. Jerusalem lays out her test: why we honor someone and whether their cruelty is the main thing they’re remembered for. Matt argues the bigger problem is that we undercommemorate people, and that we should want more statues, not fewer. Plus, a peer review on whether machine learning can predict who will be shot, and how much power the government should have to use that data. (0:00) Who deserves to be canceled? (1:30) Why Matt wants more statues, not fewer (3:43) Jerusalem’s test for canceling a historical figure (9:04) Should we cancel Columbus Day? (11:24) The Cesar Chavez cancellation (19:46) Robert E. Lee and the myth of the Lost Cause (28:08) Cancel Paul Ehrlich of The Population Bomb (39:07) Uncanceling Flannery O’Connor (48:35) Uncanceling Thomas Jefferson (59:27) Peer Review: Can AI predict who will be shot? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Trump, Xi, and the race for superintelligence

ChinaTalk's Jordan Schneider joins Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias to compare how the U.S. and China are approaching artificial intelligence. They dive into the Trump-Xi summit, whether AI will change how politicians govern, and the limits of what Chinese AI models are allowed to say. They also discuss the gap in public opinion: why do so many people in China have positive expectations for AI while Americans are dooming? Plus, a peer review on how childhood neighbors shape the careers we choose. (0:00) AI, China, and the Trump-Xi summit (3:50) Will AI replace politicians? (8:26) Grok, DeepSeek, and who controls AI (12:09) Can AI save Congress? (22:25) Asking DeepSeek about Chinese Democracy (26:45) Does AI break the development ladder? (31:13) Why China is more optimistic about AI than America (54:37) Corruption in China vs. the U.S. (1:06:17) Why the White House wants to rebrand AI as "superintelligence" (1:10:50) Peer Review: Do childhood neighbors shape your career? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

What the hell is going on in Europe?

How can Europe's liberals stop the far-right? Matt Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas debate the far right's rise in Germany, France, and beyond, and whether Europe's mainstream parties mishandled immigration and opened the door for the AfD and Marine Le Pen. They get into what Sweden and Denmark got right on integration, why deportations and asylum deterrence are so hard, whether liberals should ever govern with the far right, and why Europe's strange aversion to air conditioning is a gift to populists. Plus a peer review on whether having more kids pushes mothers into remote work. (00:00) Are liberals losing Europe? (6:24) Magna Carta, freedom of movement, and immigration (14:05) Dril tweets and the sane-washing dilemma (20:29) Should liberals give into populist demands? (28:14) Joe Biden, deportations, and asylum (31:47) Libya, the Mediterranean, and deterrence (41:02) What Sweden and Denmark got right (48:20) France, the UK, and air conditioning (52:02) Peer Review: moms and remote work Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

How worried should we be about AI?

Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias debate whether artificial intelligence poses an existential risk to human civilization, or if that idea is just a dangerous distraction from real, near-term risks. Matt's case for doom is that we'll cede more power and authority to AI agents as they recursively self-improve, leaving humans more vulnerable in the end. Jerusalem pushes back on this and argues that obsessing over extinction scenarios makes it harder to regulate biological weapons, cybersecurity vulnerabilities, and the economic disruptions already underway. Plus a peer review of a new paper on why meetings can actually be good for you and your company. (00:00) Is advanced AI going to kill us all? (04:09) Jerusalem pushes back on AI doom (07:26) The Claude Code auto-mode problem (11:02) Bioweapons and AI's real near-term risks (15:41) Why extinction risk still matters politically (19:21) Why Matt is scared of a flawless AI (33:13) Reasons AI won't take over (52:08) The case for an AI pause (58:54) Peer review: why meetings are actually good for you Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Are we on the road to serfdom?

For this month’s book club, Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias read Friedrich von Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom,” the 1944 book that argued central planning inevitably leads to totalitarianism and became one of the most cited books in American and British politics. Jerusalem and Matt get into whether Hayek’s central thesis actually explains Nazi Germany, the similarities between socialism and fascism, and why authoritarian regimes are always run by scumbags instead of nice-guy technocrats. (00:00) Are we on the road to serfdom? (02:25) Hayek's real argument: central planning leads to dictatorship (05:26) Britain puts Hayek's theory to the test (08:20) What's the line between socialism and the welfare state? (14:49) Why this 80-year-old debate keeps coming back (20:45) The viral tweet about life before Uber (31:49) What does "economic freedom" actually mean? (48:22) Decentralizing power: philanthropy, federalism, and price controls (56:45) When regulation goes too far (01:15:28) Why the worst people always end up on top Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

How 9/11 changed American politics forever

As the 25th anniversary of the September 11 attacks approaches, Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias look back at the day itself, the warning signs that preceded it, and the 25 years of politics that followed. They trace how the response reshaped foreign policy, launched the global War on Terror, and set the Republican Party on a path that eventually led to Donald Trump and the rise of MAGA. They also get into the intelligence failures before the hijackings, the Patriot Act, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and how the Republicans and Democrats have flipped on issues like security and surveillance. Plus a peer review on how private tutoring centers like Kumon affect student performance. (00:00) The difference between George W. Bush and Donald Trump (03:53) The World Trade Center bombing (07:02) Why the towers didn't collapse right away (11:58) The many red flags (15:55) Bush, Saddam, and the Gulf War (24:40) How today's GOP would have responded differently (29:05) The hate crime surge, and who it actually hit (33:06) Neocons, hawkish Democrats, and the case for war (45:55) Why right liberalism is in retreat (57:06) Somalia, Black Hawk Down, and intervention fatigue (01:09:04) Explaining 9/11 to people who don't remember it (01:13:07) If a Democrat was president on 9/11 (01:22:52) Peer review: How much do private tutors really help? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Nate Silver on why the center-left is losing

Nate Silver thinks the center-left might be right about a lot of policy questions, but they're still losing the political argument. He joins Jerusalem Demsas, Matt Yglesias, and special guest Jeremiah Johnson (staff writer at The Argument and host of the New Liberal Podcast) to dive into his recent article, "12 questions for the center-left." They get into whether liberalism and centrism are actually the same thing, why liberals need to be more vocal about their accomplishments, and whether many "anti-establishment" politicians like AOC, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders are actually part of the establishment. Plus a peer review of a new paper on AI-assisted decision-making in child protective services and what it reveals about human and algorithmic bias. (00:00) Nate Silver's questions for the center-left (03:48) Vibe check for the center-left (07:44) Liberalism vs. centrism: not the same thing (09:48) Zohran Mamdani and sewer socialism (19:45) Answering Hasan Piker: do centrists believe in anything? (24:52) Why the Democratic establishment won't get overthrown (46:31) Why the center-left won't get angry (50:36) What happened to the center-right? (57:29) Is the DSA a threat to liberalism? (59:57) California, LA, and the failure of one-party rule (01:08:04) Peer review: Can AI make CPS decisions less biased? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday — subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Derek Thompson on the antisocial century

Americans are spending more time alone than ever before. Derek Thompson, author of "The Anti-Social Century" and co-author of Abundance, joins Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias to argue that this isn't loneliness in the traditional sense. This new brand of loneliness is a choice, and Derek fears it's spreading across the world. Jerusalem presses him on whether the data actually supports the trend, and Matt talks about how social technology has helped him stay connected to friends. Plus a peer review of a new paper on joint custody after divorce in Sweden, and why both hosts are skeptical of its headline finding. (00:00) Why Derek Thompson is obsessed with loneliness (05:33) Americans are choosing to be alone (12:33) The difference between being alone and being lonely (17:48) The studies that show forced socializing works (32:29) Are guilty pleasures a modern phenomenon (34:35) Why English-speaking countries are lonelier (43:10) Is American happiness actually declining? (47:01) Matt's case that phones make him less lonely (52:30) Social fitness: socializing as exercise (59:14) Weakness of the will and winter camping videos (01:02:02) Peer review: How joint custody affects parents and kids Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Are elites just whoever you don’t like?

Who actually counts as an elite in America? The Argument ran its own poll on elite perception, and the results scramble a lot of conventional wisdom. Billionaires and celebrities are the only groups a majority of Americans call elite. College professors, journalists, and people with graduate degrees barely register. Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias dig into what that means for the anti-elite politics of both parties, and why Matt thinks the poll is an overwhelming win for the Bernie Sanders crowd. Matt even takes the poll on elites himself to see where his views match up. Plus a peer review of a new paper on Ivy League admissions and elite networks. (00:00) The Argument's poll on who counts as elite (02:11) Celebrities, by definition, are elite (10:01) Poll results, Bernie Sanders, and Chris Rufo (21:26) Is the turn against feminism real? (34:45) Hollywood, Green Book, and cultural power (42:30) Career success vs. marriage and kids (53:17) Progressive incoherence on population and climate (01:00:23) Nobody thinks politicians are elite (01:02:23) Peer review: Ivy League admissions and elite networks Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

What's wrong with Bowling Alone?

Is there really a loneliness crisis? Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias read Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone, the 2000 classic that diagnosed America's collapse in community life. They argue about how bad the loneliness problem really is today, and whether Putnam's diagnosis about the loss of associational life actually holds up. They also get into Putnam's uneasiness about telling people to go to church, whether social capital really explains crime and civic health, what happened to the arguments the left already won, how much television and phones are to blame, and more. (00:00) Why we're reading Bowling Alone in 2026 (05:14) Bowling alone is more concerned about church attendance (12:08) Does social capital explain anything? (17:00) Television, the internet, and the usual suspects (27:26) How American associational life reorganized (36:53) Has cooperation actually declined? (43:57) Voting, civic engagement, and what counts (55:57) The arguments the left already won (01:05:21) Why do young people who are doing fine feel so bad? (01:12:58) "Get off your phones" and other bad prescriptions Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

#MeToo didn’t go far enough

Many people say the #MeToo movement went too far. Jerusalem Demsas disagrees: she thinks it didn't go far enough. Matt Yglesias wants to talk about what the movement actually was, and worries about the risks of a leaderless movement without clear standards. They get into the difference between social and legal standards for misbehavior, why the Aziz Ansari story split the discourse, and what vibe shift actually took place. Plus a peer review of a new paper on migration, gentrification, and the people who prefer to move to better neighborhoods rather than fixing the ones they're in. (00:00) Jerusalem's hot take: #MeToo didn't go far enough (04:36) What Matt Yglesias thinks (08:24) The "abolish police" problem for #MeToo (09:54) Feminists using culture instead of the legal system (21:11) Aziz Ansari and unfair consequences (27:49) Social accountability vs. legal accountability (35:05) The gender gap on #MeToo (47:49) The Srinivasan essay and what #MeToo really was (01:02:52) Peer review: Move or fix the neighborhood Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! Once a month, The Argument podcast does a book club episode. This month we are reading Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam. Read along if you are interested, and comment with any questions/ideas you'd like us to explore! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

You don't actually want to buy a house

Most Americans still see buying a home as the ultimate financial goal, but Jerusalem Demsas thinks homeownership is overrated. Matt Yglesias, a proud homeowner, disagrees. They get into why the American Dream might be a bad financial deal, what's really driving people's demand for stability, and whether the Singapore model has something to teach us. Plus a peer review of a new paper using Swedish lottery data to ask what money actually does to marriages. (00:00) Homeownership is overrated (04:42) The "only path to wealth" myth (10:16) The home equity piggy bank (17:25) The illiquidity problem (22:21) Homeownership brain (27:30) What everyone actually wants: stability (32:57) Rent control is back (35:28) A Singapore-style savings idea (45:17) The YIMBY case for more homeowners (46:45) Peer review: Lottery winners and marriage Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! Once a month, The Argument podcast does a book club episode. This month we are reading Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam. Read along if you are interested, and comment with any questions/ideas you'd like us to explore! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why AI might not replace us after all

Most Americans fear that AI is about to cause widespread job losses, so Matt Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas brought in their first-ever guest, Timothy B. Lee of the Understanding AI newsletter, to break it all down. Matt thinks a white-collar wipeout is coming. Jerusalem and Tim think we've got enough time to adapt. Plus, a peer review on a new paper about the effects of mixed-use zoning. (00:00) Our first guest: Tim Lee on AI and jobs (02:27) Matt's case for the white-collar wipeout (05:43) Jobs are bundles of tasks (08:26) The O-ring theory: why one human still matters (18:02) Tim's answer: it's all about timescales (21:27) Chess, Starbucks, and the human preference problem (24:28) The protectionism scramble: gas pumps and self-driving trucks (30:47) The "canaries in the coal mine" study on young workers (38:45) Channeling 2015 Matt: just run a hotter economy (49:30) Peer review: What's actually wrong with zoning? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

What AOC and Bernie Sanders get wrong about the oligarchy

Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have been packing arenas on their "Fighting Oligarchy" tour, but Matt Yglesias doesn't think the oligarchy is real. Jerusalem Demsas is more sympathetic: donors really do get access that regular people can't, and the discomfort with that is about democracy, not policy outcomes. But the discourse frustrates her too, since "the oligarchy" shifts from a cabal of billionaires to the entire top 10 percent, depending on the argument. They also get into why the study Bernie cites doesn't show what he thinks it shows, how the Republican donor class spent a fortune failing to stop Trump, Mark Zuckerberg's gold-chain era, and the self-interested class that actually has captured American government: homeowners. Plus a peer review of a paper showing that immigration lowers mortality among the elderly, and what AI does to that argument. (00:00) Is the oligarchy real? (03:22) What donors actually buy: access and face time (12:52) Mark Zuckerberg, the most destructive billionaire (17:30) Citizens United and the money-buys-elections theory (21:51) Tom Steyer and the billionaires who lose (27:18) The real cabal: homeowners (34:29) The study Bernie cites (and what it actually shows) (41:04) Why small-d democracy is underrated (43:17) Money, media, and public reasoning (53:05) Peer review: Does immigration help the elderly live longer? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Was Jane Jacobs the first NIMBY?

For this month's book club, Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias read The Death and Life of Great American Cities, the 1961 classic that changed how everyone thinks about neighborhoods. Rereading it as YIMBYs, they find a book that's right about what makes a street feel alive and wrong about almost everything that followed: Jacobs's push to devolve power to the neighborhood level became the veto that now blocks new housing everywhere. They also get into why Jacobs ignored the economics of cities, what Austin gets right that Greenwich Village lost, and the one place Jerusalem agrees with Jacobs completely: city parks are overrated. Plus a peer review of a new paper on how the typewriter transformed women's economic lives. (00:00) Rereading the most famous book about cities (06:00) Greenwich Village, gay bars, and what made her neighborhood special (15:23) Jacobs's four principles: mixed uses, old buildings, density, and small blocks (23:17) The blind spot: cities are economic engines (27:47) How Jacobs's victory became the NIMBY veto (36:03) Height limits and what Americans actually want (44:40) The zoning contradiction at the heart of the book (46:18) It's the people, not the buildings (49:58) Montreal, Berlin, and why isn't everyone moving to Philadelphia? (55:21) What would Jane Jacobs think of Austin? (01:01:15) The case against city parks (01:16:41) Peer review: How the typewriter changed women's lives Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript

Is assimilation racist?

Should immigrants have to assimilate? Jerusalem Demsas and Matt Yglesias take on the growing idea that immigrants shouldn't have to assimilate to belong in America. Jerusalem, the daughter of immigrants, disagrees, and makes the case that assimilation is not only good for the country but that immigrants largely self-select for liking America. The conversation turns to patriotism, and why Jerusalem thinks the left has ceded the American flag to the right by defining the country entirely by its worst chapters. Plus a peer review of a buzzy new paper claiming the iPhone is responsible for a significant decline in birth rates, and why they both think the number is too wild to be true. (00:00) Should immigrants have to assimilate? (08:24) Why Europe's assimilation panic doesn't fit America (14:21) Assimilate to what? The liberal democracy line (22:59) The "emerging Democratic majority" own-goal (30:39) Cultivating "Americanness" and bilingual education (39:09) Teaching the norms: the Germany shower story (45:14) Why America beats Europe at assimilation (50:10) Reclaiming patriotism for the left (57:05) Don't Tread on Me and bringing back the Pledge (01:01:20) Peer Review: Is the iPhone birth control? Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript

The Biden legacy: A ranking of failures

The Bidens are back in the news, thanks to Jill Biden’s new book and Joe’s apparent difficulties raising money for his presidential library. So Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias do the thing the party keeps avoiding: they rank the worst parts of Joe Biden's presidency, from the economy and inflation to immigration, Israel and Gaza, the Kamala Harris pick, and the decision to run for reelection at all. Plus a peer review of a new paper on why marriage is collapsing for non-college Americans, and why it isn't the girlbosses. (0:00) Why Democrats are distancing from Joe Biden (7:25) Kamala Harris: could Democrats have replaced her in 2024? (15:00) Biden's cabinet and the identity politics trap (25:00) Bidenomics: how Elizabeth Warren's staffers took over (35:14) Biden's border crisis: why the White House ignored it (45:00) Israel-Gaza: the war splitting the Democratic Party (55:00) Why Israel dominates every political conversation (01:05:00) How grievance against Obama shaped Biden's White House (01:10:25) Peer review: why marriage rates are collapsing in America Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript

Andrew Tate, Dan Bilzerian, and the death of romance

Is online dating advice actually making it harder to find love? This week, Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias wade into the world of online dating advice, from the manosphere influencers coaching men to treat women as opponents to the female-coded content teaching women to read every date as a minefield. Jerusalem and Matt find themselves split on what it's actually doing to us. Is this tactical advice a useful nudge for people who'd otherwise never take a risk, or a trap of stereotypes that flattens individuals and increases neuroticism? And in a world where the old tracks to marriage have disappeared, what's left to help people actually connect? Plus: research on the economics of fracking and what the shale revolution did for the Obama era. (00:00) The problem with modern dating advice (06:27) Judging Andrew Tate and Dan Bilzerian (10:16) Psychological dating games and the Neil Strauss era (18:53) Female-coded dating advice (30:10) Risk vs. reward in dating (36:47) Gender stereotypes in modern romance (46:52) What's the point of a relationship? (51:07) Peer Review: The economics of frackin Peer review: “How Much Has Shale Gas Saved U.S. Consumers?" paper by Lucas W. Davis calculating how much natural gas customers have saved annually, between 2007 and 2025, as a result of the fracking boom: https://www.nber.org/papers/w35245 Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript

How environmentalists lost the plot

Is modern environmentalism anti-progress? This week, Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring – the book that launched the modern environmental movement. Jerusalem and Matt find themselves surprised by what's actually in it. Is it a visionary scientific critique or a romantic backlash against modernity? And did Carson's legacy help or hurt the cause she championed? Plus: new research on whether leaving the workforce accelerates cognitive decline and what that means for an AI-driven future. (0:00) Why Silent Spring Still Matters Today (10:13) The Myth of the "Natural Balance" (15:12) The genius of the screwworm program (20:10) Rachel Carson vs. Big Chemical Industry (29:13) Environmentalism and Global Economic Growth (40:15) Ecomodernism: Can Science Save Nature? (49:31) The Rise of the "Vetocracy" in Policy (59:43) Peer review: Does Working Keep Your Brain Sharp? Peer review: "Does Employment Slow Cognitive Decline? Evidence from Labor Market Shocks" — Kouchekinia, Neumark & Bruckner (NBER): https://www.nber.org/papers/w35117 Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript

Do we need to build God to cure cancer?

AI companies keep promising it will cure cancer. But what does that actually mean — and would an AI capable of doing it be one we'd want to live alongside? Jerusalem Demsas and Kelsey Piper debated the question live in San Francisco, in front of a crowd of researchers, investors, and skeptics who had plenty to say about it. One of them is going to be very wrong. Listen and judge for yourself. (0:00) Is the AI trade-off worth it? (3:54) Are small wins good enough? (10:27) What would it mean for AI to cure cancer? (15:22) AlphaFold: Speeding up the chemistry of life (16:40) Did ChatGPT cure a dog's cancer? (31:10) Anthropic and the "Build God" strategy (34:38) Audience Q&A (43:50) Jerusalem and Kelsey respond Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate! The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

• Transcript