Second Wind by AKA

Aaron Starkman: “I Was Fired Three Times. It F*cked With Me.” | Rethink, Creativity & AI

By almost every measure advertising has for keeping score, Aaron Starkman and Rethink are on top of the world. As Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink, Aaron has helped build one of the most acclaimed independent agencies in advertising, behind famous work for Heinz, IKEA, Coors and more. Rethink has been named Independent Agency of the Year at nearly every major international award show, including Cannes Lions, The One Show, The Clios, London International Awards and The ANDYs. In 2024, Rethink was named Cannes Lions Independent Agency and Network of the Year, and holds the #1 spot on WARC’s Global Independent Agency ranking and The Drum World Creative Rankings. So about 45 minutes into this conversation, Kerrie asks Aaron a fascinating question: Has all that success finally satisfied his need for validation? His answer goes all the way back to the beginning of his career. “I was fired three times as a junior and it f*cked with me.” Aaron talks candidly about getting fired early in his career, the anxiety it created, and how the fear of it happening again became fuel. He opens up about therapy, medication, losing his mother, and the extraordinary dream after she died that finally pushed him to deal with what was taking up so much space in his head. But this is also a fascinating look inside how Rethink consistently makes great creative work. Aaron breaks down CRAFTS and Go Then Grow, why constraints make creativity better, how Rethink beta-tests creative ideas in the real world, why they don’t use the word “client,” and the Relationship Accelerator they use to build trust between agencies and brands. We also get into AI and the future of advertising. While much of the industry is focused on using AI to make advertising faster and cheaper, Rethink is going the other way: doubling down on human creativity and working toward having 50% of the company made up of creatives. Aaron’s take: “Average feels like AI.” A remarkably candid conversation about creativity, ambition, anxiety, advertising, AI, leadership, client relationships, mental health — and what happens when achieving everything you thought you wanted doesn’t necessarily make the noise disappear. Aaron Starkman is Global Chief Creative Officer & Partner at Rethink. Second Wind is hosted by Kerrie Finch, Jake Neske, and Gully Flowers, and made by AKA.

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Why General Motors Hired a Creative Who Refused to Pick a Lane | Nico Poalillo

Nico Poalillo spent years being told he needed to pick one thing. Director. Producer. Photographer. Creative. Experiential. Instead, he kept doing all of it. Now he’s bringing that multidisciplinary career to General Motors, joining GM as Director of Global Design Visualization and Environments. On this episode of Second Wind, Nico joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to talk about the unlikely path from growing up in Southern California to moving to Detroit, living in a $150-a-month closet, shooting bands, working across agencies and production, directing for brands including Cadillac, Acura, Apple and Nike, and helping create live experiences for artists including Bad Bunny and Bad Omens. He also opens up about the cancer diagnosis that forced him to reassess his relationship with work, why it ultimately changed the way he leads, and what returning to Detroit to join one of the world’s most storied automotive design organizations means to him. We get into: • Why young creatives shouldn’t be afraid to do more than one thing • How Detroit shaped Nico’s career and creative philosophy • The rise of multidisciplinary creative careers • Why experiential and IRL experiences are having a moment • Building cultural experiences with Bad Bunny and Bad Omens • What cancer taught him about ambition, work and leadership • Why creatives are increasingly moving upstream inside brands • The opportunity — and responsibility — of joining General Motors • How Nico thinks about GM’s century of design heritage • Why the next generation of creatives should build their own “creative ecosystem” Nico’s advice is simple: go make the other thing. Shoot something. Design something. Make the zine. Take the photos. Help your friend’s band. The things that don’t fit neatly into your job title might eventually become the reason someone hires you. Second Wind is a podcast about what happens next in creative careers, advertising, design, production, marketing and culture. Hosted by Gully Flowers, Kerrie Finch and Jake Neske.

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Adam Ferrier: Why Advertising Needs to Stop Making Ads

Consumer psychologist and Thinkerbell founder Adam Ferrier thinks advertising has a bigger problem than AI: the industry is still too focused on making ads. In this episode of Second Wind, Adam joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to unpack what advertising and marketing look like when you start with human behavior rather than the 30-second script. Adam explains why the traditional creative model is breaking down, why advertising creatives need a better understanding of how people actually make decisions, and why some of the biggest creative opportunities are hiding in places the industry routinely ignores. We also get into artificial intelligence and creativity: Adam’s idea of AI as “System 3,” the difference between cognitive offloading and cognitive surrender, and why he believes AI should enhance human creativity rather than simply make agencies more efficient. Adam Ferrier is a consumer psychologist, author and founder of Thinkerbell. Before Thinkerbell, he co-founded Naked Communications in Australia and worked at Saatchi & Saatchi. His career spans behavioral science, brand strategy, creativity and advertising effectiveness. In this episode: * Why advertising needs to think beyond ads * AI, creativity and the rise of “System 3” * System 1, System 2 and how AI changes human thinking * Cognitive offloading vs. cognitive surrender * Brand building, future demand and category entry points * Why the 30-second script still dominates advertising * What’s wrong with the traditional copywriter/art director model * Why creative people need to understand behavioral science * How AI is changing advertising production * Why email, CRM and customer experience are overlooked creative opportunities * Creativity, craft and the future of advertising agencies About Adam Ferrier Adam Ferrier is the founder and Chief Thinker at Thinkerbell and one of Australia’s best-known consumer psychologists. He is the author of The Advertising Effect and Stop Listening to the Customer, and has worked across behavioral psychology, brand strategy and creativity. Second Wind is a podcast about what happens next in advertising, creativity, marketing and the people reshaping the industry. Subscribe for more conversations with the people changing advertising and creativity.

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Pancho Cassis: The Guy Behind Moldy Whopper on Why Most Advertising Gets Ignored

Pancho Cassis is Global CCO and Partner at DAVID and one of the creative leaders behind Burger King’s Moldy Whopper, Stevenage Challenge and some of the most awarded advertising of the last decade. His starting point for every brief is brutally simple: people will do anything to avoid advertising. On this episode of Second Wind, Pancho joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to talk about what it takes to make work people actually want to see — and why spending $50 million doesn’t mean anyone will care. We get into what he learned judging the Cannes Lions Titanium category; why famous campaigns have an advantage at award shows; what makes an idea travel across countries and cultures; and whether the advertising industry has simply created too many awards. Pancho also explains why he doesn’t believe creative culture can be built entirely on Zoom, how DAVID gives junior creatives the chance to shape big ideas, and the lesson his father taught him about persuading clients to buy work that scares them: patience. Plus, we break down DAVID’s Clash of Clans work with Erling Haaland and Pancho’s philosophy of “milking the stone” — don’t stop when you’ve found a good idea; keep pushing until you’ve extracted everything from it. Pancho Cassis has won 192 Cannes Lions, including eight Grand Prix and three Titanium Lions, as well as a D&AD Black Pencil and dozens of Effies. His work spans Burger King, Supercell, Coca-Cola, Magnum and some of the most recognized creative campaigns in the world. Second Wind is a podcast about the people, ideas and forces shaping advertising, creativity and marketing.

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Inside Cannes Lions & Effie: Paul Kemp-Robertson on What Wins in Advertising Now

Cannes Lions has spent decades defining what great creativity looks like. Effie has done the same for effectiveness. Paul Kemp-Robertson sits inside both. As Chief Content Officer of LIONS, Paul has a rare vantage point on the forces shaping the global advertising industry. LIONS brings together Cannes Lions, Effie, WARC and Contagious — institutions that influence what gets celebrated, what gets studied, what gets put on stage and, ultimately, what the industry believes great work looks like. Paul has also watched the industry change from almost every angle. He started at Shots in the early 1990s, when the world’s best advertising arrived on VHS tapes and call-for-entries went out by fax. He went on to Leo Burnett and co-founded Contagious before becoming Chief Content Officer at LIONS. So we wanted to ask him a bigger question: What wins now? Because advertising is at another strange inflection point. AI has made the tools of creativity available to almost everyone. ChatGPT, Claude and the other major AI platforms are rapidly changing how people search, work, make things and consume media. Yet some of the companies building that future are now turning to advertising agencies, brand-building and very human creative work to differentiate themselves. Paul thinks that’s telling. We get into Mother’s work for Claude and its attack on ChatGPT; why an industry flooded with frictionless AI content could put a new premium on human creativity; why craft is ultimately a form of respect for the audience; and whether we’re heading towards a world where “100% human made” becomes something worth signalling. We also go inside the institutions that have spent decades setting the bar for the industry. What is Cannes Lions actually for now? Do awards still influence the direction of advertising? What separates work that wins awards from work that actually works? Why might the client be the bravest person on an award-winning team? And is safe, generic “wallpaper” advertising actually the biggest risk a brand can take? Paul takes us inside AXA’s “Three Words,” one of the standout ideas from Cannes Lions, and the difficult boardroom conversations behind adding domestic violence coverage to its insurance policies. It’s a fascinating example of creativity moving beyond communications and into the business itself. That leads us somewhere even more interesting: what happens when creative people stop being handed a media plan and start getting closer to the product, the organization and the problem? We talk Oatly’s Department of Mind Control, why some of advertising’s greatest ideas came from creatives wandering around factory floors, the Bitcoin investment Paul wishes he’d made, why curiosity still matters, and what the next generation should know coming into the business. And after a career spent thinking about some of the world’s most celebrated advertising, Paul tells us what he’d put on his LinkedIn tombstone: “It’s only advertising.” Paul Kemp-Robertson is Chief Content Officer at LIONS. He co-founded Contagious and previously worked at Shots and Leo Burnett. Second Wind is a podcast about the people, ideas and forces reshaping advertising, creativity and marketing. Hosted by Kerrie Finch and Gully Flowers. A Second Wind podcast by AKA.

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Stop Making Ugly Noise: Justine Armour on AI, Creativity & Great Advertising

“We just have no interest in flooding the public consciousness with ugly noise.” Justine Armour, International Chief Creative Officer at 72andSunny, joins Second Wind to talk about what great creative work looks like when everyone has access to AI. Fresh from serving as a D&AD Jury President, Justine talks about why human craft is becoming more conspicuous, what separates genuinely creative cultures from agencies that merely talk about creativity, and why 72andSunny has no interest in joining the race to make more, cheaper content. We get into what 72andSunny has learned from working with e.l.f., why strategists and creatives should be “getting up in each other’s shit,” and Justine’s five ingredients for great work: simple, surprising, audacious, craft and energy. Justine also explains why Australian creatives tend to spend longer mastering their craft, why she once turned down an ECD opportunity because she didn’t think she’d made enough great work yet, and the Guinness “Surfer” ad that changed her understanding of what advertising could be. Plus: AI and creativity, D&AD, e.l.f., Wieden+Kennedy, creative leadership, agency culture, optimism without toxic positivity, tall poppy syndrome, and why Justine remains determined not to be average. Justine Armour is International Chief Creative Officer at 72andSunny. Second Wind is a podcast about what happens after you’ve made it — and what the best people in advertising, design and creativity learn next. Search Second Wind by AKA. #Advertising #CreativeLeadership #AI

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The Myth of the “Normal User” | David Vogel on AI, Accessibility & Designing for Real People

Most products are designed for someone who doesn’t exist. The average user. David Vogel, Executive Experience Director at Hypersolid and former AKQA design leader, argues that the idea of a “normal” human has quietly shaped everything from schools and workplaces to digital products, customer experiences, and AI. The problem is that normal was never real. In this episode of Second Wind, David joins Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to explore why neurodiversity changes the way we think about accessibility, why crash test dummies reveal a deeper flaw in modern design, and why designing for edge cases often creates better experiences for everyone. The conversation also looks ahead. David explains why ChatGPT is only the earliest interface for AI, why brands should be careful about outsourcing customer relationships to AI platforms, and how intelligent experiences could reshape products, retail, and personalization over the next decade. In this episode • Why there is no such thing as a “normal” user • How ADHD and neurodiversity challenge traditional design thinking • What crash test dummies teach us about accessibility • Why designing for edge cases creates better products for everyone • Why ChatGPT is only the beginning of AI • How brands can embrace AI without giving away the customer relationship • What intelligent experiences could mean for the future of retail, work, and customer experience Guest: David Vogel, Executive Experience Director at Hypersolid Hosts: Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch

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Why Brands Must Refound Themselves in the Age of AI | Craig Elimeliah, Code and Theory

AI isn’t changing marketing. It’s changing what a brand is. In this episode of Second Wind, Craig Elimeliah, Chief Creative Officer at Code and Theory, introduces a concept we haven’t been able to stop thinking about since recording: brand refounding. For years, companies have talked about brand transformation. Craig argues we’re entering something much bigger. AI isn’t simply making marketers faster. It’s forcing organizations to rethink the foundations of how brands are built, governed and remembered. We explore why AI exposes disconnected organizations, why brand consistency becomes more valuable as content scales, why consumers are becoming dramatically harder to fool, and why creative leaders are increasingly responsible for shaping entire businesses, not just campaigns. In this conversation: • What “brand refounding” actually means • Why AI is exposing weak brand systems • The difference between brand transformation and brand refounding • Why speed, scale and brand no longer have to compete • How AI creates organizational memory instead of disconnected campaigns • Why creative leaders are becoming business leaders • The future of agencies, brands and creative operating systems • What every CMO should understand before investing in another AI tool Craig Elimeliah is the Chief Creative Officer at Code and Theory, one of the world’s leading digital transformation and creative technology companies. Throughout his career, he’s helped shape products, platforms and brand systems for many of the world’s most influential organizations. Second Wind is hosted by Gully Flowers and Jake Neske, founders of AKA. Each episode features candid conversations with the creative leaders, CMOs, founders and operators shaping the future of advertising, branding, design, AI and business. If you work in marketing, advertising, brand strategy, creative leadership, AI or digital transformation, this conversation will give you a new framework for thinking about what comes next.

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Amazon Chief Brand Officer Jo Shoesmith on Leadership, AI & Creativity | Second Wind by AKA

What does it take to lead one of the world’s biggest brands? Jo Shoesmith joins Kerrie Finch and Gully Flowers shortly after becoming Chief Brand Officer at Amazon to discuss leadership, AI, creativity, agency relationships, and why the best leaders never stop proving themselves. From Amazon’s leadership principles to building trust, influencing at scale, and preparing for a future shaped by AI, this is a practical conversation for anyone leading creative teams, brands, or businesses. In this episode: Becoming Amazon’s Chief Brand Officer Amazon’s approach to leadership and trust How AI is changing creative work Working with agencies more effectively Why great leaders prove themselves every day Building influence beyond the creative department About Second Wind by AKA Second Wind by AKA features candid conversations with the creative leaders, founders, CMOs, producers, and operators shaping modern marketing, business, and culture. New episodes every other Tuesday. https://hey-aka.com/second-wind

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Why Agencies Are Selling the Wrong Thing ; Anthony Reeves, Kohler

AI is making execution cheaper. Brands are building stronger in-house teams. Holding companies are consolidating. Production companies are being pushed further downstream. So what are agencies still uniquely for? Anthony Reeves has spent his career inside some of the world’s biggest agency networks and brands. He has worked at WPP multiple times, held senior roles at Amazon and LVMH, and now leads Global Brand and Creative at Kohler. Anthony joins Gully Flowers to discuss why agencies cannot win on efficiency, Kohler’s line on synthetic people, why too much data can weaken a creative brief, how fear changes the work, and why AI may make brand more valuable rather than less. They also get into creative apprenticeship, why great talent clusters, the danger of becoming too comfortable, and Anthony’s book, Eat the Donkey. Follow Second Wind for honest conversations with the people shaping the creative business. Chapters 00:00 Why agencies can’t win on efficiency 00:39 Anthony Reeves 01:21 Moving to Kohler, Wisconsin 01:55 The job of a creative leader 02:36 Kohler’s line on synthetic people 04:14 How AI changed since Cannes 2018 06:01 Has more data improved the creative brief? 08:40 What happened to the holding companies? 10:14 What brands still need agencies for 12:44 Fear changes the work 14:01 How to lead creative teams 18:55 Why AI makes brand more valuable 21:18 Eat the Donkey 25:56 Advice for young creatives 28:19 Why great talent clusters 30:22 Reinvesting in people and brand 31:22 The danger of being downstream 32:40 A better North Star

Susan Credle on M&M’s, Allstate Mayhem, Brave Clients, and the Death of Populist Advertising

Susan Credle has helped build some of the most famous advertising characters of the last 30 years, from the M&M’s ensemble to Allstate’s Mayhem. In this episode of Second Wind, she joins Kerrie Finch and Gully Flowers for a sharp, funny and unusually honest conversation about what makes creative work last. Susan talks about seeing brands as characters, how M&M’s grew from candy mascots into a comedic ensemble, why Mayhem worked because it was deeply strategic, and what great clients do that risk-averse ones often miss. She also gets into one of the biggest tensions in modern advertising: the gap between work that wins awards and work that reaches real people. From the rise of case studies to the decline of truly populist creative, Susan makes the case for work that does not need to be followed around and explained. This is a conversation about brave clients, fragile progress, creative leadership, the pressure of becoming one of the first female CCOs in America, and why the best work should make someone in the world say thank you.

Why Great Ads Feel Like Childhood Memories | Marques Gartrell, W+K

Marques Gartrell is Co-CCO of Wieden+Kennedy New York, the agency behind work for Nike, McDonald’s, Delta, and Michelob Ultra. In this episode of Second Wind: how the Travis Scott meal started from a tweet why the Grimace Shake became internet folklore how W+K made “Horizontal Breakfast” in 7 days why brands are competing with childhood memories what young creatives get wrong why Marques still keeps Photoshop open A conversation about culture, instinct, taste, speed, and making work people actually carry around with them. The best work stops feeling like advertising and starts feeling like part of someone’s life.

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Andrew McKechnie on OpenAI, Apple, and Moving Creative Upstream

Andrew McKechnie is Head of Business Creative Studio at OpenAI. Before that he was SVP and Chief Creative Officer at Verizon, where he ran a $3 billion marketing budget and built a 300-person in-house agency. Before that he was Global Head of Design Group at Apple. Across his career he has won a Gold Cannes Lion, multiple D&AD pencils, six straight Webbys, and an Emmy nomination. He sits down with Gully Flowers to talk about what happens when a creative decides the brief is too late, and the only way to do better work is to move upstream. They cover what the agency model got wrong, why it was an operating issue and not a talent issue, what a real in-house team is and is not, why physical craft matters more in the AI era, and what OpenAI's merch program reveals about modern brand building. A conversation for anyone leading creative work inside a brand, agency, or startup right now.

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Craig Allen on Old Spice, Skittles, and Protecting the Creative Weirdos

Craig Allen wrote the Skittles spot where a man accidentally murders his family with rainbow candy. He helped make the Old Spice response campaign ; 286 videos in 36 hours, one every 7 minutes, until they broke YouTube. Then he left Wieden+Kennedy, asked Dan Wieden what to call his new agency, and got told every name was stupid. This week on Second Wind, the founder and CCO of CALLEN sits down with Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch to talk about how to sell ideas that scare clients to death. Inside the episode: - Why the best risky ideas are “stupid smart” — and how to make a CMO feel dumb for not buying them - The real story behind the Skittles Touch shoot: explosives, cops, a $$$$ glass desk filled with hundreds of thousands of real Skittles, and one PA running through the shot - How a six-person writers’ room turned Old Spice into the fastest creative operation in advertising history - Why Dan Wieden made him put his own name on the agency (and why it changed how he works) - The case for fun as a strategic weapon, not a vibe - What independent agencies have to do now that the holding cos have stopped pretending to care about creativity Craig has won two Cannes Grand Prix, the Grand Effie, Best in Show at The One Show, two black D&AD pencils, an Emmy, and was once named one of the 50 sexiest creatives in the world by Creativity Magazine. We do not let him forget it. Second Wind is a Webby Honoree podcast at the intersection of creativity, leadership, and advertising. Hosted by Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch of AKA. New episodes fortnightly. Leave a review if it landed.

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Eric Kallman on Old Spice, Skittles, and the Campaign That Almost Died

Eric Kallman is the co-founder and chief creative officer of Erich & Kallman, the independent agency behind standout work for brands like Reese’s, King’s Hawaiian, Franzia, Toyota and more. Before that, he helped create some of the most iconic advertising of the last two decades, including Old Spice, Skittles, Little Caesars, Kayak and Ragu. Erich & Kallman was named Ad Age’s 2024 Small Agency of the Year and was later recognized as a 2025 A-List standout. In this episode of Second Wind, Eric talks about how Old Spice almost died before it changed culture, why absurd work only works when the product truth is dead simple, and what most young creatives are skipping when they chase shortcuts. He gets into the discipline behind funny advertising, the value of silence in the creative process, why six weeks and 250 scripts used to be normal, and how AI can help if it gives creatives more time to think instead of less. Topics include Old Spice, Skittles, creative discipline, copywriting, campaign craft, small agencies, advertising fundamentals, AI in creative work, and what it takes to make funny ads that actually sell.

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Micah Walker on Why Caring Too Much Still Wins

Micah Walker, co-founder of Bear Meets Eagle on Fire, joins Second Wind for a sharp conversation on what it really takes to make better work. He talks about building an agency that refuses to become a smaller version of the big networks, why caring too hard is a feature not a flaw, why the best ideas should never arrive with a safety option, and how great production turns good thinking into something people can actually feel. This one is about creative conviction, craft, culture, and the kind of standards that make the work unforgettable.

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Matt Cooper on Awards, Reputation, and Why the Work No Longer Speaks for Itself

Matt Cooper, founder of Little Black Book, joins Second Wind to talk about how LBB became the most visited creative platform in the world, why awards are becoming toxic, why the work no longer speaks for itself, and what the industry still gets wrong about reputation, craft, and growth. We get into the rise of indie agencies like Bear Meets Eagle On Fire, why clients and agencies need more belief, how creative companies should use platforms like LBB properly, what young people misunderstand about the industry, and why Matt thinks AI is being talked about all wrong. If you care about creativity, reputation, production, agency growth, or where the business is heading next, this one’s worth your time.

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Una Walsh on Google, Nike, Apple, and the Magic Brands Keep Cutting

Una Walsh has spent 25 years working at the seam between what a brand promises and what a customer actually feels — from Virgin Atlantic and Nike's House of Innovation to Apple, and now as Executive Experience Design Director at Google. In this conversation, Una and co-hosts Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch dig into why retail has gotten boring, what brands like Nike and LOEWE are doing differently, and why the obsession with frictionless efficiency is quietly killing brand joy. They also get into AI, craft, and why a sewing machine doesn't make you a fashion designer. Topics covered: – Why Virgin Atlantic was Una's first lesson in holistic brand experience – The Nike Soho flagship: what went wrong on opening day and how they fixed it – The retail ritual that makes the Nike shoe box moment magic – How Google is thinking about physical retail for its devices and hardware – "We moved from the age of information to the age of imagination" — Es Devlin – Why creatives still need to sell their ideas, no matter how senior they get – AI as a sparring partner, not a shortcut Second Wind is hosted by Gully Flowers and Kerrie Finch. New episodes every other Tuesday.

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Jason Sperling (Apple “Mac vs PC”) on Working With Steve Jobs & Leading Creativity in the AI Era

Jason Sperling is the Chief Creative Officer at INNOCEAN ; and one of the creative leaders behind Apple’s legendary “Mac vs PC” campaign. In this episode of Second Wind, Jason shares what it was really like presenting to Steve Jobs every Wednesday, surviving brutal creative cycles at TBWA\Chiat\Day, and helping turn “I’m a Mac” into one of the most influential campaigns of the century. We also get into: • Convincing Steve Jobs to run digital banner ads • Writing body copy to land a job at Chiat • The six-month grind behind Mac vs PC • Making Honda’s Ferris Bueller Super Bowl spot • Directing Bruce Willis after he walked off set • Why taste matters more than tools in the AI era • How creative leaders survive the jump from maker to manager • The future of agencies in an AI-driven world If you care about advertising, leadership, creative resilience, or how iconic work actually gets made — this one is for you.

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David Kolbusz (Orchard CCO) on Meme Ads, Mental Hooks, and Why “The Work Comes First” Is a Lie

David Kolbusz is Chief Creative Officer at Orchard, with a career across Droga5 London, Wieden Kennedy New York, BBH London, Goodby Silverstein, Mother, and TBWA Toronto. In this episode, we talk about what actually makes advertising work stick. Mental hooks that live in your head. The difference between chasing culture and understanding it. And why David thinks the industry needs to be more honest about the myth we repeat, that “the work comes first.” We also break down recent examples David loves, including a meme-driven taco ad and KitKat’s Break Squad, as a way to talk about creative restraint, timing, and leadership in modern advertising.

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