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Second Nature

Dylan Bowman & Aaron Lutze

The business of outdoor hosted by Aaron Lutze & Dylan Bowman

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Friday · 1 hr 1 min
Wisdom From A Decade Of Affiliate Marketing
Angie Burnett has spent over a decade in affiliate marketing — starting with coupon sites at 1-800 Contacts, moving through fashion e-commerce, and now leading influencer and affiliate partnerships at Backcountry, a 30-year-old brand she's helped modernize for the creator economy. Recorded live at Outdoor Retailer, this conversation goes deep on what most people get wrong about affiliate marketing and what the best creators and brands are doing differently right now. Angie breaks down why "owning your audience" matters more than ever and how she evaluates creators beyond follower counts (including a surprising use of Reddit and Meta's Creator tools). She also walks through what it actually takes to build an affiliate program from scratch, why newsletters are a much harder affiliate channel than people assume, and how YouTube's new shopping integration is changing the game for creators. Second Nature Is Supported By: Popfly (For Brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (For Creators/Athletes): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Angie Burnett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angieburnett/ Backcountry: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/enE9bO Popfly: https://www.popfly.com Wasatch Adventure Dress: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/ZVzG0W Avantlink: https://www.avantlink.com Impact: https://www.impact.com Clique Agency: https://cliqueaffiliate.com/ MarTec Record (Slack): https://martechrecord.com/industry-surveys-reports-and-data/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Koala Eco Veggie Wash: https://www.koalaeco.com/ DryBrew: https://drybrew.com/ Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
September 18 · 59 min
Building in Public: A Basecamp From the Ground Up
YJ Tung is building Foresthill Basecamp — a performance lodge with ten modular cabins at mile 62 of the Western States Trail, featuring saunas, cold plunges, and everything an endurance athlete could want after a long day on the trail. The idea started after a three-hour delirious drive home from his first ultra, and it's now becoming real through a combination of validation, relationship-building, and no small amount of serendipity. In this conversation, YJ walks through how he and his business partner validated the concept with just $15-20 a day in Meta ads before building anything, how a chance connection in the Second Nature Slack turned into real partnership support, and what it's been like to work his first-ever trade show booth at TrailCon. He also gets candid about losing his father, managing the imposter syndrome that comes with pursuing something this ambitious, and why he's convinced he's exactly the right person to bring this particular idea to life. Second Nature is proudly supported by: Halo: https://poweredbyhalo.com/ Popfly (for brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (for creators): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: YJ Tung: https://www.linkedin.com/in/youngjohntung/ Miwok 100k: https://miwok100k.com/ Isaac French: https://www.isaacjfrench.com/ Unreasonable Hospitality (Book): https://amzn.to/3UZex4c Sally McRae - Western States Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHoXgYPvj6o East Peak: https://www.runeastpeak.com/ SF Run Co: https://store.sfrunco.com/ TrailCon: https://trailconference.com/ Foresthill Basecamp on IndieGogo: https://www.indiegogo.com/en/projects/foresthill_basecamp/fhbc Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy: https://amzn.to/4y3e27R Second Nature Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Autocamp: https://autocamp.com/ Ramble podcast episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFqLCAyEvY Snowpeak: https://www.snowpeak.com/ mammoth trailfest: https://www.mammothtrailfest.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Trail Work (Book): https://amzn.to/4d1VJrp Without A Doubt - Braydon Bringhurst: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIWGC_qnBO4 Find Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
September 11 · 1 hr 9 min
The Business Behind the Best Activation at UTMB (And Beyond)
Hilary Fenet just pulled off one of the most talked-about brand activations at UTMB — a full hotel takeover in Chamonix for Rabbit, complete with a clubhouse for the week, community breakfasts, and an espresso cart in the parking lot. But the company behind it, Halo, started with a much smaller and much less glamorous moment: Hilary booking a hotel on the wrong side of a mountain before a race in the Italian Dolomites. In this conversation, Hilary walks through how a bad hotel booking turned into a genuine business insight — brands were building incredible experiences for their sponsored athletes, but ignoring the people actually buying their gear. She breaks down how Halo builds these activations from the ground up, the data that makes the case for in-person experience over pure digital marketing, and what it actually takes to scale something this bespoke to multiple events happening around the world at once. Second Nature is proudly supported by Halo and Popfly: Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Hilary Fenet: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilary-fenet-b2b2358/ Rabbit: https://www.runinrabbit.com/ Monica DeVreese: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monid/ Dolomite Skyrace: https://www.dolomitemountains.com/en/resources/dolomites-tips/sky-race-in-the-dolomites Aravaipa: https://www.aravaiparunning.com/ Citadel Investment Group: https://www.citadel.com/ SAFE Note: https://carta.com/learn/startups/fundraising/convertible-securities/safes/ Athletic Brewing on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZyMp1XsPs BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Rabbit: https://www.runinrabbit.com/ Theo of Golden (Book): https://amzn.to/4xliEF3 Climatic: https://www.climatichealth.com/ War of Art (Book): https://amzn.to/4h2vkuE Shoe Dog (Book): https://amzn.to/4A5RSmL Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
September 4 · 1 hr 9 min
What Farmers Taught Him About Building A Company
Taylor Hoekstra spent years selling products through an unlikely channel — farmer YouTubers — years before anyone called it the "creator economy." That experience taught him something most people in the outdoor industry hadn't figured out yet, and it planted the seed for Popfly. Before writing a line of code, Taylor spent two years and roughly 500 conversations validating the idea, testing a simple question: would people actually pay for this? In this conversation, recorded live at Outdoor Retailer, Taylor walks through the classic cold-start problem every founder building a two-sided marketplace has to solve — get supply first, use supply to pull in demand, then reinvest in supply relentlessly. He also gets honest about the early years trying to convince outdoor brands that working with creators was worth their marketing budget, long before it was an easy sell. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Taylor Hoekstra: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taylorhoekstra/ Popfly: https://www.popfly.com Camp Chef: https://www.campchef.com/ Cold Start Problem: https://amzn.to/4qTtHEb BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Outdoor Retailer: https://outdoorretailer.com/ Amazfit T-Rex 3 Pro: https://us.amazfit.com/ Shackelton's Voyage: https://amzn.to/4qRwmOB 57 Hours: https://57hours.com/ Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
September 2 · 59 min
Navigating Transitions With Rebecca Rusch
Today, we're sharing something a little different. My longtime friend Rebecca Rusch invited me onto her podcast, What's The Rusch, to talk about navigating transitions: the ones we choose, and the ones that choose us. Rebecca and I have known each other for over 20 years, since my days as her athlete manager at Red Bull, and this conversation covers a lot of ground: my own path from Red Bull into building Super Rider and Second Nature, the behind-the-scenes story of helping athletes see the light, and some honest reflections on loss, reinvention, and figuring out what comes next. This isn't a regular Second Nature episode, but it felt too good not to share. Enjoy the conversation, and if you like what you hear, go check out the rest of What's The Rusch right here: https://www.rebeccarusch.com/whatstherusch
August 28 · 1 hr 14 min
How To Build a Business, Not Just a Following
Second Nature Listener Survey: https://surveymars.com/q/inCNkLas9 Alyssa Olenick, known online as Doc Lyss, has spent the last eight years building a seven-figure fitness and training business while simultaneously earning a PhD in exercise physiology. She started with $35-a-month one-on-one coaching over Google Sheets and a MacBook that literally overheated. Today she runs a training app, a coaching team, and a quarter-million-follower community built on a simple philosophy: talk to your customers, act fast, and never stop iterating. In this conversation, Alyssa breaks down what it actually took to build a business that didn't feel real until nearly a decade in, why she turned down far more brand deals than she accepted, and what "world-building" really means in modern marketing: the idea that people buy into an identity, not just a product. She also gets candid about the hardest season of her business, the difference between growing a business and running a company, and why she deliberately paused an entire second brand for years because she knew she couldn't do both well at once. This episode is supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Alyssa Olenick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssaolenick/ DocLyssFitness: https://www.instagram.com/doclyssfitness/ The Lyss Method: https://quiz-thelyssmethod.com/ DocLyss Newsletter: https://substack.com/@doclyssfitness DocLyss YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@doclyssfitness Alex Hormozi: https://www.instagram.com/hormozi/?hl=en Shelby Sapp: https://shelbysapp.com/ Codie Sanchez: https://codiesanchez.com/ Yeti: https://www.backcountry.com/brand/yeti ShopMy - Alyssa's Storefront: https://shopmy.us/shop/doclyssfitness NoBull: https://nobullproject.com/ Ozlo Sleepbuds: https://ozlosleep.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: SENIQ: https://seniqbrand.com/ Halfdays: https://www.halfdays.com/ Suunto Race 2: https://www.backcountry.com/suunto-race-2-sport-watch Courtney - Post Hardrock Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYa_fTw01w HoverAir X1 ProMax: https://us.hoverair.com/products/hoverair-x1-self-flying-camera-combo Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
August 21 · 1 hr 3 min
The Bentonville Blueprint, From the People Who Built It
Second Nature Listener Survey: https://surveymars.com/q/inCNkLas9 Gary Vernon, Scott King, and Aimee Ross have been building what is now one of the most significant mountain bike destinations in the world. What started in 2006 as a five-mile trail system in Bentonville, Arkansas has grown into 600 miles of trail across the region, 1,200 miles statewide, and most recently, a lift-access bike park with its own chairlift, restaurant, and membership model. In this conversation, they walk through the design principles that made it work: building for beginners first, focusing on progression, and the decision to build within city limits rather than isolating trails on private land. They also break down the economics of trail building compared to traditional recreational infrastructure, what it actually took to build a 38-trail bike park in under two years, and the advice they give every community that calls asking "how do we become the next Bentonville"...which is, simply, don't try. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Scott King: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-scott-king-9991a4/ Aimee Ross: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aimeeross/ Gary Vernon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-vernon-ii-58253a7/ Tom Walton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-walton-40b9792ba/ OZ Bike Park: https://oztrailsbikepark.com/ OZ Trails: https://www.oztrails.com/ Discovery Loop: https://www.visitbentonville.com/blog/stories/post/ride-the-loop-bentonvilles-scenic-bike-route/ IMBA: https://www.imba.com/ Transform Your Community (Gary's TED Talk): https://youtu.be/yXJkWIeNP6g?si=p8frsQWhW7CzqJnB IMBA TrailLab: https://www.imba.com/trail-labs Gravity Logic: https://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Cone valve suspension: https://dirtbikemagazine.com/cone-valve-suspension/ Sierra Nevada NA: https://sierranevada.com/brews/trail-pass-ipa Triumph Daytona: https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/sport/daytona-660 The Design Way (Book): https://amzn.to/4zjfoMS Marin Alpine Trail EXR (Aaron's Bike): https://marinbikes.com/collections/alpine-trail-e Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
August 14 · 1 hr 5 min
The Athlete Who Thinks Like A Founder
Annijke Wade became an adaptive mountain biker in 2021 after a downhill accident left her with a spinal cord injury. Four years later, she's racing at events like SBT Gravel and Sea Otter Classic, running a nonprofit called Dirt Bound that develops para athletes, building a content strategy sophisticated enough to land her in a Meta Creator program, and already planning for goals she can't quite reveal yet for 2027 and 2028. In this conversation, Annijke and Aaron dig into what's changed in adaptive mountain biking over the last five years, how she thinks about building a career that doesn't depend on race results or viral moments, and what it actually takes to convince race organizers to include para athletes. They also get into her content strategy — from 822 followers to 10,000, the loop format, and working with Meta on creator growth — and what brands should look for when building long-term athlete partnerships. Show Notes: Annijke Wade: https://www.instagram.com/geodesicdome/ Bowhead Bikes: https://www.bowheadcorp.com/ Martyn Ashton: https://www.instagram.com/martynashton/ Rideable Now: https://www.rideablenow.com/ Rebecca's Private Idaho: https://www.rebeccasprivateidaho.com/ Annijke's Shreddit Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8_RpvGO6c Dirt Bound: https://www.dirtboundcycling.com/ Dialed Creator Program: https://www.skool.com/dialedcreator/about BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Lael Wilcox: https://www.instagram.com/laelwilcox/ Matador - refillable toothpaste: https://www.matadorequipment.com/products/refillable-toothpaste-tubes Ozlo Sleepbuds: https://ozlosleep.com/ TRTL Neckwrap: https://amzn.to/4pVM8Y0 Any One Of Us (Film): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kKJdHMJJJU Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia #podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business
August 7 · 1 hr 8 min
How One Brand Can Predict the Industry's Next Move
Jill Nazeer is the brand marketing manager at Salsa Cycles and one of the most experienced athlete and content marketers in the bike industry. Before Salsa, she was at Diamondback during one of the most interesting periods in mountain bike content history: when Seth from Berm Peak was just a guy with a cool YouTube channel, and Eric Porter was figuring out what adventure content could look like. She helped build what became one of the most effective creator rosters in the industry, almost by accident. In this conversation, Jill walks through what she learned about athlete marketing at Diamondback, how Salsa's relationship with parent company QBP gives them an unusual data advantage in the industry, and why she spent two years making penny farthing jokes before becoming a true believer in 32-inch wheels. She also gets into what brands get wrong about the DTC vs. bike shop debate, why the bike shop still matters more than most people think, and the Columbia Flat Earther campaign — which might be the most creative brand marketing move of the year. Show Notes: Jill Nazeer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-nazeer-a05b554/ Salsa Cycles: https://www.salsacycles.com/ Eric Porter: https://www.youtube.com/@PorterMTB Berm Peak: https://www.youtube.com/@SethsBikeHacks Mike Hopkins - Dream Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn1dcZTSAzk Micayla Gatto: https://www.instagram.com/micaylagatto/ QBP: https://www.qbp.com/ Surly: https://surlybikes.com/ Salsa Fargo 32: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/fargo-32 Unbound Gravel: https://www.unboundgravel.com/ Wanderosa: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/wanderosa SENIQ on Second Nature: https://youtu.be/LUkiabROzdg BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Columbia Expedition Impossible: https://www.columbia.com/expedition-impossible.html Backcountry Slickrock Kit: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/1G2WPB Wild Rye: https://wild-rye.com/ Shredly: https://shredly.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia #podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business
July 31 · 1 hr 7 min
What Victoria's Secret Taught Two Founders About the Outdoor Industry
Tina and Madison started SENIQ after nearly a decade building careers at Victoria's Secret and Backcountry — and it turns out the most important lessons they carried into their brand came from a lingerie company, not an outdoor retailer. Growing up in a world where women sat on every leadership team and product innovation was the quarterback of the business shaped how they think about building SENIQ from the ground up. In this conversation, the co-founders of SENIQ walk through the full story — writing their business plan on a template they found online, moving into their parents' basements in Columbus, Ohio to launch, and trusting their gut to launch a ski collection six months in, despite every mentor telling them not to. They also get into how low-res iPhone content consistently outperformed expensive campaign shoots, why co-founders who disagree on everything make better brands, and how to figure out which voices to ignore when you're building something nobody has built before. Second Nature is proudly supported by: Halo: https://poweredbyhalo.com/ Popfly (for brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (for creators): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: Tina Thompson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinathompson/ Madison Hilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-hilson/ SENIQ: https://seniqbrand.com/ Backcountry: https://www.backcountry.com Business Plan Template: https://offers.hubspot.com/business-plan-template SENIQ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seniq Mattie Sims on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJl441qcZLk BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Primally Pure Deodorant: https://primallypure.com/ Gorpgirls x Oboz: https://obozfootwear.com/pages/oboz-x-gorp-girls Never Slept - Nike Knicks Ad: https://www.instagram.com/reels/DZjR_dosb9x/ Dream Crazier - Nike Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfX5jeF6k4 Garmin 970: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/L0rY60 Detours With Valentina: https://valentinathompson.substack.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
July 24 · 1 hr 17 min
He Never Wanted to Go Viral. That's Why Brands Trust Him.
Tommie Runz started running in 2018, a year after choosing sobriety, and began documenting the journey simply because it felt good to share progress and get encouragement. Seven years later, he's built an audience of over 30,000 through nothing but consistency and honesty — no viral moments, no big follower jumps, just a steady climb built entirely on trust. In this conversation, Tommie and Aaron pick up where they left off after a live panel at TrailCon, digging into what it actually looks like to build a career as an athlete-creator without compromising who you are. Tommie breaks down why he's turned down "ambassador" deals that undervalue creators, how relationships with brands often take years rather than emails to develop, and the moment he realized his content needed to sound exactly like him or it wasn't worth doing at all. Second Nature is supported by Popfly: Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Show Notes: Tommie Runz: https://www.tommierunz.com/ Tommie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Tommie_Runz Tommie on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Tommie_Runz PR Project (Podcast): https://www.youtube.com/c/PRProject/videos Asics: https://www.asics.com/ Mack Baker (Asics): https://www.linkedin.com/in/mack-baker-b6218717/ Cosign Creatives: https://cosignmag.com/cosign-creative-agency/ Tommie Runz Show (Podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tommie-runz-show/id1538233660 Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/ Tommie on Freetrail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7lJd4t12a8 TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Currently: https://currentlyrunning.com/ Best Running Podcasts: https://bestrunningpodcasts.com/ Precision Fuel & Hydration: https://www.precisionhydration.com/ Aaronnomics: https://www.instagram.com/aaronnomics/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
July 17 · 1 hr 16 min
State of the Industry: Trail Running at TrailCon
Steve Holmberg and Matt Trappe are back for a debrief on one of the biggest weeks in trail running — Broken Arrow, Western States, and everything in between at TrailCon. Steve breaks down his state-of-the-industry analysis: why trail running's rebrand from "ultra running" unlocked massive new participation, why the sport is about to fragment the way mountain biking did decades ago, and why brands chasing "max" specs are about to pivot to "right" specs built specifically for trail. Then Matt takes listeners inside a project few people got to experience firsthand — a house in Tahoe built with Skratch and other partners, designed to bring brand leaders, athletes, and creators together without competitive walls. He explains the intention behind it, what happened when 37 of 40 people in the room spoke up during an unscripted conversation, and why some of the best moments of the week happened specifically because they weren't being recorded. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Steve Holmberg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenholmberg/ Matt Trappe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-trappe/ Insight Accelerator: https://insight-accelerator.com/ Matter of Brand: https://amatterofbrand.substack.com/ TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com Tommie Runz: https://www.instagram.com/tommie_runz/ Salomon TV - Trail Dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05sUhlxFBk0 Salomon TV - Bill Dooper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF8ZdwpnTLQ WSJ on Trail Runners: https://www.wsj.com/style/fashion/trail-running-footwear-9d39a2c6 Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/ ACG: https://www.nike.com/acg Freetrail: https://www.freetrail.com Tantrums: https://tantrums.run/ Amazfit: https://us.amazfit.com/ Skratch: https://www.skratchlabs.com/ SF Run Co: https://store.sfrunco.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Hilary Yang "Raise The Bar": https://www.thehilaryann.com/raise-the-bar Marin Rift Zone EL XR: https://marinbikes.com/products/2025-rift-zone-el-xr-int Golden Hour Racing Shirt: https://auteursportif.com/collections/golden-hour-racing-capsule Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
July 10 · 1 hr 19 min
The Last Time Someone Reinvented Camping Was 1962
Matt Oesterle built his first company, Callisto Media, from zero to $85 million in revenue by using data to disrupt the book publishing industry. Then he sold it to Penguin Random House and asked himself: what's the next industry that hasn't been forced to evolve? The answer was camping — an industry whose biggest brands were founded in the 1960s and haven't changed much since. In this conversation, Matt walks through the framework he uses to pick businesses, how he designed the Ramble campground experience from scratch, and what it takes to build a hospitality brand that maintains a 4.98-star review score while scaling to 100+ locations. He also gets into the role of data versus instinct in entrepreneurship, why type two fun is a hiring requirement for his team, and why you don't have to be a sociopath to build something great. If you've ever looked at an industry and thought "someone should fix this" — this is the episode for you. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Athletes: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Matt Oesterle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oesterle/ Ramble Campgrounds: https://ramble.camp/ Next Ventures: https://www.nextventures.com/ Mel Strong on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcjUzrM3Jg Callisto Media: https://www.sourcebooks.com/callisto HipCamp: https://www.hipcamp.com/ Net Promoter Score (Term): https://www.qualtrics.com/articles/customer-experience/net-promoter-score/ Solo Stove: https://www.solostove.com/ Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ The Everything Store (Book): https://amzn.to/4vpM8kx BPC - Brand, Product, Content: RAB: https://rab.equipment/ The Algorithm (Book): https://amzn.to/4aOzKTJ MFM Pod - The Algorithm Author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG4TwQEYdBY New Yorker Profile - Sam Altman: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted *** Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
July 3 · 1 hr 6 min
Martyn Ashton on Rideable Now and the Future of Adaptive MTB
Martyn Ashton spent two decades as one of the most influential trials riders in the world — making the smallest, most niche discipline of mountain biking accessible and exciting for a global audience through videos, shows, and a personality that made everyone feel like they could try it. In 2013, a crash during a stunt show left him paralyzed. Now he's doing the exact same thing all over again — this time for adaptive mountain biking. In this conversation, Martyn walks through the founding of Rideable Now, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to helping people with disabilities and life-changing injuries access adaptive mountain bikes. He explains why modern adaptive bikes aren't a watered-down version of mountain biking — they're genuinely terrifying, capable machines that unlock every trail in the world for people who never thought they'd ride again. He also gets into the economics of £25,000 bikes, why the e-bike power race could go too far, and the moment he gave away Rideable Now's first complete bike to a father of three who had no idea it was coming. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Athletes: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Martyn Ashton: https://www.instagram.com/martynashton/ Rideable Now: https://www.rideablenow.com/ Bowhead Bikes: https://www.bowheadcorp.com/ Cole Bernier: https://www.instagram.com/cbreezyrides/ Annijke Wade: https://www.instagram.com/geodesicdome/ Random Tandem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onoeq45G6ec Dirty Tricks and Cunning Stunts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd3n8-0tuHU GMBN: https://www.gmbn.com/ Rideable Now Membership: https://www.rideablenow.com/join Disabled Dad Of Three: https://www.instagram.com/disableddadof3/ High Fives Foundation: https://highfivesfoundation.org/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content Topeak Digital Tire Pump: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/DWBMvq Stashed Spacerail (10% discount link): https://www.stashedproducts.com/superrider *** Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
June 26 · 1 hr 6 min
You've Heard of Heat Training. Here's How It Actually Works.
Ross McGraw has had one of the more interesting career arcs in the outdoor industry — from Nike's NYC Run program to Vice Media and Viacom, to helping build Hammerhead through its acquisition by SRAM, and now leading commercial efforts at CORE, the company changing how elite athletes think about heat. In this conversation, Ross breaks down the science of heat training in plain language — why 80% of the energy athletes generate is thermal, how heat zones work, and why the world's best cyclists and runners are training in heat suits before major races. He also gets into what it felt like to go from being a cog in a media machine to betting on himself in sports tech, why triathlon taught him more about business than any corporate job, and how to know when you're doing the "social run" version of your career. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Athletes/Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Ross McGraw: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rossmcgraw/ CORE: https://corebodytemp.com/ CORE Heat Suit: https://corebodytemp.com/products/core-suit CORE Heat Zones: https://help.corebodytemp.com/en/articles/10447111-heat-zones Hammerhead: https://shop.sram.com/pages/hammerhead Zwift Bike: https://us.zwift.com/collections/equipment/products/zwift-ride-smart-frame Wahoo Software Update: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/wahoo-elemnt-firmware-update-2026 BPC - Brand, Product, Content: World Cup - Adidas ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJJY53qhJe0 Breathe (Book): https://amzn.to/4eBoX0f Respire Mouth Tape: https://respire.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
June 19 · 1 hr 14 min
The One Question Every Brand Needs to Answer
Mattie Sims has built brands at Lululemon, Electronic Arts, Reef, and Rally Pickleball — and along the way developed a framework for brand building that most founders skip entirely. Now she's applying everything she's learned to two ventures at once: Courier, a performance sock brand built around the idea of the "Renaissance athlete," and Mate the Agency, a brand strategy firm working with founders across industries. In this conversation, Mattie walks through the muse framework she learned at Lululemon and has refined across every role since — why the most important question isn't "who buys this product" but "what is this person worried about when their head hits the pillow at night." She also gets into why looking branded is not the same as having a brand, what happened when Rally discovered their customers weren't there for pickleball, and why having her son was the thing that finally convinced her she could be an entrepreneur. Plus: why niching down is the thing every founder is most afraid of, how Courier is building a cultural movement around versatile excellence, and the Red Bull receptionist whose casual suggestion became a billion-dollar product strategy. Popfly For Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Show Notes: Mattie Sims: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeline-sims-83385823/ Courier Socks: http://couriersocks.com/ Mate The Agency: https://www.matetheagency.com/ Rally Pickleball: https://www.rallypickleball.com/ Mate IG Carousel Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/DYW4_SVEU8b/ Carrie Rheaume (Mate agency co-founder): https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-rheaume-6376521a8/ Matt Sims: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-sims-9b716450/ Gartner Hype Cycle: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwerner/2024/07/18/the-trough-of-disillusionment-and-four-outliers-on-the-gartner-hype-cycle/ Morgan Tuohy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-tuohy/ Dera: https://rundera.com/ Ryan Thrower: https://www.instagram.com/ryanthrower/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Seniq: https://seniqbrand.com/ Summer Edition - Red Bull: https://www.redbull.com/us-en/energydrink/products/red-bull-summer-edition Billy Oppenheimer's newsletter: https://billyoppenheimer.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
June 12 · 1 hr 8 min
The Sunscreen Brand That's Rewriting Performance Science
Tom Austen is the founder of Pelotan, the world's first sun performance brand, and co-founder of Chance, a trail running apparel brand he's building with pro athlete and serial entrepreneur Christian Meier. Both brands are based in Girona, Spain — a two-square-kilometer pocket of world-class endurance athletes, cafes, and startups that's become the Boulder of Europe. In this conversation, Tom walks through how Pelotan went from a sunburn problem on training rides to winning two Tour de Frances with Team Sky in its first year, and how the brand is now pioneering something entirely new: treating the sun as a performance variable rather than just a health risk. He also gets into the Chance origin story, why cross-pollination across categories is the key to building something original, and what it's like to run two high-growth startups at the same time from a city of 100,000 people. Show Notes: Popfly for Athletes/Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Tom Austen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomausten1/ Pelotan: https://pelotan.cc/ Chance Running: https://chancerunning.com/ Second Nature - Sea Otter Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLk1LGIthPc Christian Meier: https://www.instagram.com/christianmmeier/ The Gartner Hype Cycle: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwerner/2024/07/18/the-trough-of-disillusionment-and-four-outliers-on-the-gartner-hype-cycle/ Pelotan Apres Aftersun: https://pelotan.cc/products/pelotan-apres-200ml Pelotan App for Second Nature listeners: https://pelotan.cc/secondnature Broken Arrow Skyrace: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/ Lael Wilcox: https://www.instagram.com/laelwilcox/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Nomio: https://drinknomio.com/ Adidas World Cup ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJJY53qhJe0 Nike - Airport soccer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGalnbiGDW4 Insta360 GO Ultra: https://store.insta360.com/product/go-ultra Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
June 5 · 1 hr 5 min
Behind The Brand: Athletic Brewing
Bill Shufelt was a hedge fund analyst who didn't drink, couldn't find a non-alcoholic beer worth ordering, and one night his wife spun him around on a sidewalk and told him to do something about it. Eight years later, Athletic Brewing has 300 employees, four breweries, over a million barrels of capacity, and has almost single-handedly turned non-alcoholic beer from a stigmatized afterthought into 20% of all beer at Whole Foods. In this conversation, Bill walks through the full journey: the two years of research before he quit his job, the valley of darkness where no brewery, distributor, or investor would take his calls, finding his co-founder John Walker through a brewing forum post (with the words "non-alcoholic" deliberately removed), and the grassroots field marketing strategy that built the brand one race, one taproom, and one six-pack at a time. He also gets into the competitive explosion that followed, why he views 200 brands entering his category as a positive, and what it's like to redefine success once the business reaches cruising altitude. If you've ever looked at a category and thought "why hasn't anyone fixed this yet", this is the episode that shows you what happens when someone actually does. Show Notes: Popfly For Brands Popfly For Creators Bill Shufelt on LinkedIn Athletic Brewing John Walker on LinkedIn 1000 True Fans (Article) Do Things That Don't Scale (Article) Two For The Trails What It Takes (Book) The Obstacle Is The Way (Book) BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Dirt - Ireland Gramicci Hopa Hopa Climbing Wall Kawa Raide Research - LF 5L Vest The Modern Substitute Kids Ride Shotgun Connect With Us: Join us on LinkedIn Meet us on Slack Follow us on Instagram Subscribe to our Newsletter Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
May 29 · 1 hr 4 min
What Happens When You Actually Ask For Help
Morgan Tuohy is seven days into the launch of Dera, a trail running belt brand built around a BOA-style dial closure that nobody's tried before in the category. He sold out of two sizes in under eight hours, shipped hundreds of belts from his living room until 3 AM, and had $500 left in his bank account two days before launch. He's 27 years old. In this conversation, Morgan walks through the full founder journey — from stitching prototypes in his attic with fabric from old running shoes, to convincing one of Osprey's largest factories to take a chance on him, to the moment Tim Tollefson told him he wasn't allowed to NOT do this. He also talks openly about his first failed brand, why he set three rules for himself this time around ("I know nothing, everyone else knows everything, and they all want to help"), and how seven members of the Second Nature Slack channel played a direct role in getting Dera off the ground. This is a brand launch captured in real time — and a reminder that sometimes the best businesses start with a sewing machine in an attic and the willingness to ask for help. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Athletes/Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Morgan Tuohy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-tuohy/ Dera: https://rundera.com/ Tim Tollefson: https://www.instagram.com/timtollefson/ Our IP Attorney, Ian Gates: https://krdglaw.com/staff/ian-gates/ Kitworks: http://www.kitworks.com Second Nature Slack Channel: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Cade Michael: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cade-michael-mba-914411152/ Clara Froeschner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clarafroeschner/ Tim Nooney: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-nooney-0a3bbaa6/ Courier Socks: https://couriersocks.com/ Claude: https://www.claude.ai Mammoth Trailfest: https://www.mammothtrailfest.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Goodles: https://www.goodles.com/ Dexa Scan: https://dexascan.com/ Kiprun - Kipsummit Max: https://www.kiprun.com/en-US/product/kipsummit-max-men-s-max-cushion-trail-running-shoes_362206--c153c385m9001281 Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia
May 22 · 1 hr 6 min
You Can Just Build Things Now
Steve Holmberg is one of our favorite recurring guests, and this time, he showed up with something nobody expected. Over the holidays, Steve went from zero coding experience to a fully functional AI-powered app called Field Check, built using the vibe coding platform Lovable. The app connects retail store associates directly to brand product and marketing teams through AI-driven chats that go deeper than any survey can — and he built the whole thing in about a month. In this conversation, Steve walks through exactly how he did it, what he wishes he'd known before starting, and why AI is "a tool masquerading as a solution." He also deployed Field Check live on the Second Nature Slack channel to surface what the audience actually wants — and the results are fascinating. Plus: a halftime check-in on Second Nature's 2026 predictions, what happened at Sea Otter with Chinese bike brands, why Adidas is having a moment, and the 32-inch wheel debate that nobody asked for. Show Notes: Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Steve Holmberg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenholmberg/ Insight Accelerator: https://insight-accelerator.com/ Lovable: https://lovable.dev/ Field Check: https://fieldcheck.app/ Supabase: https://supabase.com/ Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/ Github: https://www.github.com 2026 Predictions Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0G3OpDVnyA Steve's Prediction Post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/stephenholmberg_2026-sport-and-outdoor-industry-trends-activity-7414293417557626880-AXy7 Trailcon: https://www.trailconference.com BPC - Brand, Product, Content Jason Fried - David Senra Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDCtMA1gSw Adventure Bucket List: https://reachinternationaloutfitters.com/collections/state-bucket-lists Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

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