Scaling Laws

Lawfare & University of Texas Law School

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

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245 episodes
Updated Yesterday

Episodes245

Newest first

May 26 · 49 min
HAGS (with AI): How AI Tools Are Shaping Education with Adeel Khan and Ryan Trattner
Adeel Khan of MagicSchool AI and Ryan Trattner of StudyFetch join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rapid integration of artificial intelligence into education. The conversation explores how AI tools are being used by both teachers and students, from automating lesson planning to providing personalized tutoring and study support. The group examines claims about improved learning outcomes and time savings, while probing what counts as meaningful evidence versus early-stage or self-reported metrics. They also discuss the regulatory and operational challenges of building AI systems in education, including constraints imposed by student data protections, limited access to high-quality training data, and the growing impact of regulations and public scrutiny on product development and deployment. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 22 · 47 min
The Politics of Data Centers with VA Delegate John McAuliff
John McAuliff, a Delegate in the Viriginia House of Delegates, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program and a Senior Fellow with the Abundance Institute, to discuss the ongoing debates around data centers at the state level. John was one of the first candidates to recognize data centers as a key issue. He had to convince his polling team to put the issue on early surveys. Of course, they soon realized he was on to something. In his first legisatlive session as a delegate, John championed legislation to try to help counties negotiate with data center developers. He's not done working on the topic. Learn more about his plans and related issues by giving this episode a listen. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 19 · 48 min
Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill
Cathy O’Neil, CEO of ORCAA and author of Weapons of Math Destruction and The Shame Machine, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore the promises and limits of algorithmic auditing. The conversation examines what audits actually do in practice, how organizations measure and mitigate bias, and why context—not just code—determines whether an AI system causes harm. O’Neil explains why auditing cannot be reduced to a checklist, where it can meaningfully improve outcomes, and where it risks creating a false sense of security. They also discuss the need for evidence-based AI policy, the challenges of translating ethical concerns into measurable standards, and how regulators should think about auditing as part of broader governance frameworks. Logan Le-Jeffries, a wonderful member of the AI Innovation and Law Program, provided research assistance on this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 15 · 41 min
Escaping One-Size-Fits-All AI Policy with Sean Perryman
Sean Perryman, AI policy lead at Uber and lecturer on AI Governance and Ethics at Vanderbilt Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to explore the rapidly evolving debate over algorithmic pricing and AI governance. The conversation begins with the rise of state-level efforts to regulate algorithmic pricing to unpack what these systems are actually doing and why they provoke strong reactions. Perryman examines the political motivations behind these regulatory efforts, the economic tradeoffs they often overlook, and the risk of unintended consequences. The discussion then broadens to a central theme in Perryman’s work--including his Substack, The Human Cost--not all AI systems raise the same risks. Different use cases require fundamentally different governance approaches—yet policy debates often flatten these distinctions. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 12 · 52 min
Forecasting AI's Impact on the Economy with Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus
Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus, joins Kevin Frazier to unpack new forecasts on how AI could reshape the labor market over the next decade. The conversation centers on a striking divergence between Metaculus forecasts and projections from institutions like the Bureau of Labor Statistics—raising fundamental questions about whether existing tools for understanding the economy can keep pace with rapid technological change. Deger walks through key findings from the Labor Automation Forecasting Hub, including: A potential decline in overall employment by 2035 Increased pressure on entry-level workers and early-career pipelines The emergence of “lean” firms generating more value with fewer employees A counterintuitive “wage paradox,” where fewer jobs may coincide with higher wages The growing role of political power, regulation, and licensing in shaping labor outcomes The discussion also explores second-order effects, including how contraction in high-paying sectors could ripple through local economies, and what a shift away from traditional four-year degrees might mean for students and policymakers. Finally, Deger situates these forecasts within a broader vision: forecasting as a form of epistemic infrastructure. As AI accelerates change, the ability to form accurate beliefs about the future—and update them quickly—may become a core component of effective governance. *** - This episode was recorded on April 23, 2026. Metaculus is a live platform. It's likely that forecasts mentioned have subsequently changed. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 8 · 33 min
Rapid Response: An "FDA for AI" at the White House?, with Dean Ball
Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, spoke with Dean Ball, Senior Fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and former Senior Policy Advisor for AI at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, about the Trump administration's reported plans to vet frontier AI models before public release. They discussed how Anthropic's Mythos model reshaped the administration's posture on AI risk; why the executive branch lacks clear legal authority for a mandatory pre-deployment vetting regime; the voluntary "kick the tires" framework Frazier and Ball have proposed using CAISI and the Cyber Resilience Fund; whether an FDA-style licensing regime is ultimately inevitable for frontier AI; and the institutional design challenges of building AI oversight that can scale with rapidly improving model capabilities. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 5 · 44 min
Lawfare Daily: Why AI Won’t Revolutionize Law (At Least Not Yet), with Arvind Narayanan and Justin Curl
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, speaks with Justin Curl, a third-year J.D. candidate at Harvard Law School, and Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton University and director of the Center for Information Technology Policy, about their new Lawfare research report, “AI Won't Automatically Make Legal Services Cheaper,” co-authored with Princeton Ph.D. candidate Sayash Kapoor. The report argues that despite AI's impressive capabilities, structural features of the legal profession will prevent the technology from delivering dramatic cost savings anytime soon. The conversation covered the "AI as normal technology" framework and why technological diffusion takes longer than capability gains suggest; why legal services are expensive due to their nature as credence goods, adversarial dynamics, and professional regulations; three bottlenecks preventing AI from reducing legal costs, including unauthorized practice of law rules, arms-race dynamics in litigation, and the need for human oversight; proposed reforms such as regulatory sandboxes and regulatory markets; and the normative case for keeping human decision-makers in the judicial system. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
May 1 · 45 min
An EU-perspective on America’s Approach to AI with Marietje Schaake
In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kate Klonick, Associate Professor of Law at St. John’s University and a fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, are joined by Marietje Schaake, the International Policy Director at Stanford University’s Cyber Policy Center and author of The Tech Coup: How to Save Democracy from Silicon Valley. A former Member of the European Parliament, Schaake has long been a leading architect of digital rights and tech governance. Their conversation explores the central thesis of her work: that a handful of tech giants have effectively staged a "coup" over democratic functions, from national security to the very infrastructure of public discourse. They examine the democratic implications of AI development, the "privatization of policy," and why Schaake believes that without urgent intervention, the "rule of law" is being replaced by the "rule of code." To get in touch with us, email scalinglaws@lawfaremedia.org. Logan Le-Jeffries, a member of the AI Wranglers student program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided research assistance with this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 28 · 50 min
Eliminating Barriers to AI Adoption with Clarion AI's Bennett Borden
Bennett Borden, Founder and CEO of Clarion AI Partners, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at UT and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss AI adoption as well as the future of the law and legal practice. The two explore Bennett’s unique background, Clarion’s AI interdisciplinary approach, and the importance of AI adoption. They also cover innovative work underway at major AI labs to align model use with user expectations. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 24 · 49 min
Facts & Myths About AI's Energy Usage with Gavin McCormick
In this episode of Scaling Laws, we explore how the "black box" of global greenhouse gas emissions is being cracked open by artificial intelligence and satellite imagery. Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, talks with Gavin McCormick, the founder of ClimateTrace, a global coalition that has revolutionized the process of identifying and quantifying emissions. For decades, climate policy has relied on self-reported data from nations and corporations—a system prone to gaps and "greenwashing." McCormick’s work leverages machine learning to monitor every major source of emissions on Earth in near real-time. We discuss the legal implications of "radical transparency," how AI-driven data can be used to enforce regulations and measure claims, and the myths and facts of AI’s environmental consequences. To get in touch with us, email scalinglaws@lawfaremedia.org. Logan Le-Jeffries, a member of the AI Wranglers student program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided research assistance with this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 21 · 45 min
AI as Abnormal Technology? Scott Sullivan Analyzes AI in the Military Domain
Scott Sullivan, professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and a leading contributor to the Manual on International Law Applicable to Artificial Intelligence in Warfare, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to examine whether AI should be understood as a “normal” or “abnormal” technology. Drawing on his recent article, Sullivan argues that while AI may diffuse slowly and unevenly in civilian contexts, military AI operates under fundamentally different conditions—where strategic competition rewards speed, costs are often externalized, and meaningful oversight is limited by secrecy and epistemic uncertainty. The conversation explores how these dynamics challenge prevailing AI governance frameworks, what current military deployments reveal about the trajectory of AI adoption, and whether existing legal and policy tools are equipped to manage a domain where the pace of technological integration may outstrip the institutions designed to constrain it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 17 · 49 min
Lawfare Daily: Talking About Sam Altman with Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz
Senior Editor Kate Klonick interviews reporters Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz on their recent article in the New Yorker, titled “Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?” In their 16,000-word piece, Farrow and Marantz create a cohesive narrative with receipts around Sam Altman, the products he's building at OpenAI, and how he's selling them not just to investors and the public, but also to regulators and world leaders. Klonick unpacks three key areas that are discussed in the piece: potential concerns of fraud, ongoing trust and safety and alignment issues at OpenAI, and the national security concerns that the article exposes in the "country plan" and Altman's entanglements in the Gulf. The discussion ends with a basic question: Are any of these legal issues enough to stop or correct the course of OpenAI, with its estimated $1T IPO in the coming weeks? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 14 · 53 min
Why AI Needs Independent Auditors, with Miles Brundage
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Miles Brundage, founding executive director of the AI Verification and Evaluation Research Institute (AVERI) and former senior advisor for AGI readiness at OpenAI, about the state of AI safety and accountability and AVERI's vision for independent third-party auditing of frontier AI companies. The conversation covered the weaknesses of current AI regulations, including California's SB 53 and New York's RAISE Act; why Brundage left OpenAI to build an independent nonprofit; AVERI's case for shifting the unit of analysis from individual AI models to the organizations that build them; the "Volkswagen problem" of deception-proofing safety evaluations; a framework of AI Assurance Levels ranging from baseline transparency to treaty-grade verification; the limitations of safety benchmarks and the BenchRisk project's findings; market-based mechanisms for driving audit adoption, including insurance, procurement, and investor pressure; and how AVERI navigates the tension between proximity to industry and independence from it. Mentioned in this episode: Frontier AI Auditing: Toward Rigorous Third-Party Assessment of Safety and Security Practices at Leading AI Companies, Averi 2026 Risk Management for Mitigating Benchmark Failure Modes: BenchRisk, NeurIPS 2025 Why I'm Leaving OpenAI and What I'm Doing Next, Miles Brundage, Substack, October 2024 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 7 · 50 min
Productivity Boom? Labor Shock? Google's Chief Economist on AI
Fabien Curto Millet, Chief Economist at Google, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, to discuss the potential of AI to catalyze a productivity boom while also addressing labor market instability. The three dive into likely changes in AI capabilities as well as ongoing reasons for slow organizational adoption of AI. Finally, they close with a brief discussion of potential policy approaches. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
April 3 · 43 min
Abundance & AI? Nicholas Bagley Explains
Nicholas Bagley, Professor of Law at Michigan Law, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a live recording of the podcast in Ann Arbor. Thanks to Graham Hardig and Brinson Elliott for organizing a great event. Professors Bagley and Frazier start by analyzing a recent debate over housing policy before diving into the weeds of the Abundance Agenda, its nexus with AI policy, and what this all means for the future of legal education and governance. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
March 31 · 46 min
How To Use, Govern, And Lead On AI? Rep. Begich Points The Path Forward
Representative Nick Begich, Alaska's at-large member of Congress, joins Kevin Frazier, Director the the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the current state of AI policy on the Hill. As one of the few members of Congress with a background in tech, Rep. Begich offers a unique perspective on this unique and evolving regulatory question. The two also assess how Alaska may be a leader in developing AI infrastructure. Finally, Rep. Begich shares how he and his staff leverage AI to improve their own operations. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
March 27 · 39 min
Should AI Laws Be Subject To A Higher Standard? The Right to Compute with Kendall Cotton
Kendall Cotton, Founder and CEO of Montana’s Frontier Institute, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss Montana’s groundbreaking Right to Compute Act and how Montana hopes to protect access to AI and related technologies. We will discuss the history and reach of this Act and why other states may want to follow Montana's lead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
March 24 · 49 min
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Jassi Pannu, assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, and Doni Bloomfield, associate professor of law at Fordham Law School, about their proposed framework for governing biological data to reduce AI-enabled biosecurity risks. The conversation covered the origins of the proposal in the 50th anniversary of the 1975 Asilomar conference on recombinant DNA; the distinction between general-purpose AI models and biology-specific foundation models like genomic language models; the biosecurity threats posed by AI, including uplift of novice actors and raising the ceiling of expert capabilities; the proposed biosecurity data levels (BDL 0-4) framework and how it draws on precedents from biosafety levels and genetic privacy regulation; the challenge of capabilities-based rather than pathogen-based data classification; the institutional and regulatory mechanisms for enforcement, including the role of NIH grant conditions and a proposed mandatory federal regime; international collaboration and the importance of U.S. leadership given that most high-tier data is generated domestically; the relationship between the proposal and open-source biological AI development; and the offense-defense imbalance in biosecurity and the case for mandatory gene synthesis screening. Mentioned in this episode: Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield et al., "Biological data governance in an age of AI," Science (2026) Jassi Pannu, Doni Bloomfield, et al., "Dual-use capabilities of concern of biological AI models," PLOS Computational Biology (2025) Dario Amodei, "The Adolescence of Technology" (2026) The Genesis Mission Executive Order (November 2025) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
March 21 · 25 min
Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with Helen Toner & Dean Ball
On Friday, March 20, the Trump Administration announced a National Policy Framework for AI. White House officials have stressed that they want Congress to act on the framework's recommendations within the year. What this all means for AI policy is an open question that warrants calling in two of the smartest folks in the business: Helen Toner, Interim Executive Director at Georgetown's Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET), and Dean Ball, a senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation. This rapid response episode cuts to the chase as everyone makes sense of this important development in the national AI policy conversation. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
March 17 · 53 min
Is AI a Death Sentence for Civic Institutions?, with Jessica Silbey and Woodrow Hartzog
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Woodrow Hartzog, the Andrew R. Randall Professor of Law at Boston University School of Law, and Jessica Silbey, Professor of Law and Honorable Frank R. Kenison Distinguished Scholar in Law at Boston University School of Law, about their new paper "How AI Destroys Institutions," which argues that AI systems threaten to erode the civic institutions that organize democratic society. The conversation covered the sociological concept of institutions and why they differ from organizations; the idea of technological affordances from science and technology studies; how AI undermines human expertise through both accuracy and inaccuracy; the cognitive offloading problem and whether AI-driven skill atrophy differs from past technological transitions; whether AI-generated decisions can satisfy the legitimacy requirements of the rule of law; the role of reason-giving, contestation, and political accountability in legal institutions; the tension between the paper's sweeping diagnosis and its more incremental prescriptions; and the case for bespoke, institution-specific AI tools over general-purpose deployment. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.