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Marketing Room 101

Ben Norman

For every solid theory in marketing, there's somebody saying Gen-Z don't use shops. For every effective ad, there's a Cannes winner. And for every flash of real genius, there's a LinkedIn post from a growth hacking guru.

As host, and self-appointed guardian, of Marketing Room 101, Ben Norman welcomes marketers from across the industry into a safe space to vent their frustration and confront their demons, with the chance to eliminate them forever.

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  • 20 episodes
  • Updated June 17
  • Explicit

Episodes20

Newest first
  • June 17 · 44 min

    Ulli Appelbaum starts with science (not why): Brand Positioning Workbook author on the science of brand association and putting it into practice

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by brand strategy consultant and author, Ulli Appelbaum. Having worked in the world of brand and advertising for over 30 years, in countries as far and wide as Cameroon, Hungary and the U.S.A, and in agencies as creatively renowned as Fallon, BBDO and Leo Burnett, Ulli has gained a uniquely deep and varied understanding of how brands actually grow. Today Ulli runs brand consultancy First the Trousers, and has, in recent years, written two of the most practical, science-backed, and evidence-based marketing books ever written – The Brand Positioning Workbook and The Science of Brand Association. In this conversation, Ulli and Ben cover: Creating a practical toolkit for brand positioning from 30 years in the industry The science behind brand associations and the five sources of meaning for brands: Social (and why we buy Rolex despite Casio telling the same time) Cultural (and its overhype and overuse) Functional (Why Duracell and WD40 work) Emotional (and the power of nostalgia) Symbolic (the one I forgot to ask about) Why 95% of marketing books fail to meet scientific rigour and scrutiny Why we should start with science, not why. Ulli’s specific case to banish vagueness, and vague terms like ‘purpose’, ‘authentic’, ‘culture’ and ‘storytelling’. The power of opposites: why flipping your strategy can sense check its strength Why marketing has become more transactional and the need to bring simple creative problem solving back The deflation of quality in marketing through a lack of proper training Why smaller brands can’t win by copying the big brand playbooks Plus Tuffi the elephant, finding a loop hole for Amstel beer and the decline of religion in the western world. Connect with host Ben Norman or subscribe to avoid missing new episodes of Marketing Room 101

  • June 2 · 43 min

    Pete Markey’s secrets of a CMO: former Boots Marketing Chief on AI overhype, Morgan Freeman and the love of brand

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by ⁠Pete Markey⁠, Chief Communications & Marketing Officer at Nottingham University, a marketer with a track record for leading many of the UK’s best known brands including Boots, TSB, Post Office, Aviva and British Gas. On top of the day job, Pete is a fellow of the Marketing Society and the Chartered Institute of Marketing, as well as a former ISBA President. In this conversation, Pete and Ben cover: Bad Russian pasties and why Wetherspoons should do corporate catering Why a call centre job and radio DJing was foundational to Pete’s career How Pete ended up drinking tea with Morgan freeman and why ⁠this campaign⁠ worked so well The power and shared value in brand x celebrity partnerships in advertising How a Post Office campaign was crushed by compromise and why it’s important to make choices Pete’s secrets of longevity in leadership The joy of rolling-up his sleeves and working with start-ups and smaller businesses like Fusion Unlimited Why AI overhype is a threat to brilliant people and ideas (not necessarily AI itself) Pete’s love of brand, the power of (the right kind of) purpose, and why it needs to extend beyond the marketing team Plus, why Star Wars’ Galactic Empire could use Steps or S-Club 7 to win back the public. ⁠Connect with host Ben Norman⁠ or subscribe to avoid missing new episodes of Marketing Room 101

  • May 6 · 36 min

    A wonderful playground with Kate Waters: ITV Strategy and Commercial Head on the magic of TV, imaginative repetition, and banishing ROI as a metric

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Kate Waters, Director of Client Strategy & Planning at ITV and a leading voice on the effectiveness of TV advertising. Kate has spent over 20 years at ITV and works with many of the UK’s biggest advertisers, helping them understand how to get the most out of TV in an increasingly complex media landscape. She is widely recognised for her work championing the power of TV effectiveness, her contributions to industry thinking on attention, emotion, and profit, and for helping brands translate evidence from bodies like the IPA into practical marketing decisions. Despite being one of the busiest people in advertising, Kate is also involved with both ⁠WACL⁠ and ⁠Purpose Disruptors⁠. In this conversation, Kate and Ben cover: Why it’s difficult to leave a job when you’re a co-founder How a single day with ⁠Fiona Parashar⁠ changed Kate’s career The relationship between creative and media, and why ITV is a wonderful playgroundfor a strategist Why TV is both the same and completely different today as it was 20 years ago How Tesco doesn’t let its size stop it from being a great advertiser How McDonald’s hits the nail on the head every single time How Google and ITV’s partnership shows the benefit of brand values coming together Why TV is as good at activation as it is at brand building, and why we need to think about marketing performance… not performance marketing 5.5 reasons why smaller brands shouldn’t rule TV out Why ROI should be banished, and how it pushes brands towards efficiency over effectiveness Why John Bartle’s “imaginative repetition” is the greatest definition of great advertising Plus, how Kate almost killed the Milky Bar Kid, and why we need to bring back Morrison’s singing oven gloves. ⁠Connect with host Ben Norman⁠ or subscribe to avoid missing new episodes of Marketing Room 101

  • April 13 · 44 min

    The death of everything with Tom Roach: Jellyfish Brand Strategy VP and effectiveness expert on the debates and dichotomies that plague marketing

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by ⁠Tom Roach⁠, VP of Brand Strategy at ⁠Jellyfish⁠ and one of the biggest names in creative effectiveness. In his 25 years in the industry, Tom has held top positions in leading agencies like BBH, adam&eveDDB and Leo Burnett, leading strategy for brands including the BBC, McDonald’s, Sainsbury’s, Lloyds Bank, KFC and Weetabix, whilst picking up Gold and Silver IPA Effectiveness Awards along the way. In this time, Tom has become well known for his contributions to the field of creative effectiveness in advertising, and in this conversation he and Ben cover… How Tom got a job from a blog post The danger of false dichotomies in advertising, including Long vs Short (and why Gusto gets it right), Brand vs Performance (and the case for ‘and’ over ‘or’), Creative vs Non-Creative (as if it’s a choice), and AI vs Human (and how humans have always needed to use tools) Twin-axis creative consistency (and why you need both) The snake oil salespeople saying everything is dead (like SEO and TV) Freud’s ‘narcissism of small differences’ (the one thing Tom managed to teach Les Binet) How most marketing best practice is sales collateral, not science (according to Paul Feldwick) How social media could be amplifying division in marketing Brighter futures for juniors in the creative industry How AI is creating new roles for the next generation The best brothers question yet ⁠Connect with host Ben Norman⁠ or subscribe to avoid missing new episodes of Marketing Room 101

  • March 22 · 39 min

    The big debate with Elena Jasper: Marketing Architects CMO and podcaster on the Brand vs Performance debate, and the power of TV

    In this episode, host ⁠Ben Norman⁠ is joined by ⁠Marketing Architects⁠ Chief Marketing Officer, host of ⁠The Marketing Architects Podcast⁠, Triathlete, former Junior Olympics competitor, and all-round marketing effectiveness fiend, ⁠Elena Jasper⁠. Elena is best known for championing TV’s role in the modern media mix, whilst challenging outdated and inaccurate thinking that overlooks the potential power of TV for brands today. Elena and Ben discuss advertising’s obsession with short term results, why TV can do both the long and the short, and why we need to stop putting channels in boxes. Elena then busts some common marketing myths before deciding to banish the Performance vs Brand debate, whilst explaining why B2B and B2C aren’t really that different after all, why Brand might have a brand problem, and why we shouldn’t be so afraid of AI. Before leaving, Elena makes the case to bring back the belief in reach and having a little more fun, then Ben remembers some bad boots on a Swiss mountain, and Elena recalls a big Olympic moment.

  • February 27 · 41 min

    Steve Harrison’s punch up: Adland’s Progressive Gaze author on kicking politics out of advertising and why DE+I has its demons

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Steve Harrison, the 18x Cannes Lions-winning copywriter, creative director, and author, described by Campaign as ‘the greatest direct marketing creative of his generation’. In recent years, Steve has become known for more than just his award-winning creative work. He has also challenged the creative industry’s abandonment of its commercial responsibility to clients, arguing that “the industry has drifted from commercial selling to social activism, at the expense of economic relevance.” Ben and Steve discuss his latest book, ⁠Adland’s Progressive Gaze: How UK Advertising Lost Sight of the People and Things That Matter Most⁠, and how the demise of purpose has led to the rise of the Progressive Gaze. Steve then makes the case for banishing the politicisation of the advertising industry and explains why the obsession with diversity and inclusion might be making the industry less diverse and inclusive, as well as why so many people are afraid to challenge the Progressive Gaze. Ben and Steve also discuss the challenges facing the working class in marketing, why Steve still feels impostor syndrome after five decades in the industry, and what he wouldn't do with £3,000.

  • February 2 · 39 min

    Ian Whittaker’s war is overquantification: Industry analyst & adviser on seeing the bigger picture

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by analyst and adviser to the media, technology and creative industries, Ian Whittaker, who, having gained over 20 years’ experience in the world of finance as an Equity Research analyst (including winning CityAM’s Analyst of the Year… twice), now brings a unique perspective to business in the marketing world through his consultancy Liberty Sky Advisors, and his subscription briefing for senior leaders, The Bigger Picture. Ben and Ian discuss the importance of marketers stepping back from spreadsheets and dashboards to see the wood for the trees, how to speak the language of the boardroom, and why we need to be more concrete in quantifying results. In a complicated landscape, Ben doesn’t ask Ian to predict what will change for marketers throughout 2025 and beyond, but instead asks what isn’t likely to change. Spoiler alert: He believes people, and agencies, still have a place in the world of AI. Ian explains why agencies need to refocus on their core competencies and fight on their own battlefield, instead of trying to fight the tech giants on their turf, and then chooses to banish ‘overquantification in marketing’ before returning ‘understanding a client’s business’ to the industry. Ian also explains what the Vietnam War can teach us about misguided metrics, what we can learn from Sun Tzu about the Tech vs Creative battle, and why future war historians might look back at the present day with interest.

  • Dec 9, 2025 · 35 min

    Arjen Klinkenberg has a wobble: Tony's Chocolonely Creative Director & Brand Guru on creative disruption for start-ups

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by ‘that guy thatbuilt that Tony’s brand’ - Arjen Klinkenberg (or ‘Klink’ as he is known) - who created the first Tony’s Chocolonely wrapper design in just 10 minutes and gave up his day job to join the ‘impact-first’ chocolate business as Creative Director and Brand Guru for almost 20 years, before setting up his creative brand consultancy ‘Klink’ earlier this year. Klink and Ben discuss creativity in unexpected places, why small disruptive start-up teams need a shared idea of where they want to go, if they want to be the ‘mosquito in the room’, and why having no idea what you’re doing, can be the biggest advantage of all. Ben asks Klink about the balance between personality and purpose, before Klink makes the case for the execution of shelf wobblers in an unexpectedly impassioned rant, and the return of novelty and nonsense in your product and communications. Finally, Ben’s brother admits to some undeclared corporate benefits, Klink swears a lot and Ben talks about penguins.

  • Nov 17, 2025 · 34 min

    Nick Eagle in real life: Advertising photographer on quality over convenience and the power of people

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by perhaps the friendliest man in advertising - Nick Eagle - the photographer from Sheffield, Yorkshire, whose relaxed and down-to-earth approach has led him to shoot huge campaigns for iconic brands like The BBC, Paddy Power, and Manchester United across the globe. Nick and Ben recall the worst shoot ever and discuss the challenges and joys of the unexpected situations commercial photography creates. Nick also explains why, after years of working with heroes and national treasures like Erling Haaland, Clare Balding, and Anthony Joshua, he believes the real skill in photography is not in pressing the button, especially when shooting portraits. Nick shares why shooting his local football club, Sheffield United, stands alongside working on Sky Sports’ biggest ever out-of-home campaign as one of his proudest moments. He also makes the case for prioritising quality over efficiency in image making, discusses why he thinks AI is similar to VAR in football, and explains why meeting in person is always worth the effort. Finally, Ben’s brother recalls a chicken being thrown through a window, Nick talks about a man in a skip, and Ben declares his love for rubbish working men’s clubs in nondescript places.

  • Oct 20, 2025 · 36 min

    Lindsey Clay’s meta analysis: Thinkbox CEO on modern media, the power of TV and her love of jingles

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Lindsey Clay, CEO of Thinkbox, the UK’s marketing body for commercial TV, and perhaps the industry’s most passionate voice for the power of television advertising. Before joining Thinkbox, Lindsey worked at some of the UK’s leading agencies including McCann Erickson and JWT, and today she continues to shape the industry as a Fellow of the Marketing Society, an Honorary Fellow of the IPA, and a proud member (and former President) of WACL. Lindsey and Ben discuss the industry’s obsession with technology, why that’s coming at the expense of creativity, and what’s changed in TV in the 20 years since Thinkbox was created, before discussing the problem of gender equality in senior leadership, and what needs to change to get a 50/50 gender split amongst CEOs. Ben presents Lindsey with some common myths from self-proclaimed tech gurus and TV critics, before Lindsey makes the case to temporarily banish advertising on Meta, why brands need to think before they invest and what would really needs to change to create a level playing field. Finally, Lindsey has a good old sing-song, Ben reminisces over Chicken Tonight and Linsey regrets pregnant paintballing. Links discussed in the episode: Channel 4 – Mirror on Masculinities Thinkbox – Context Effects Thinkbox - Nickable Charts Thinkbox – TV Masters Training

  • Sep 29, 2025 · 34 min

    Tashan Nicholas’ joie de vivre: Magic Numbers effectiveness expert on why people plus numbers equals change in marketing

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by marketing effectiveness and analytics expert Tashan Nichols who works with some of the biggest and most successful brands in the UK as a director at ⁠Magic Numbers⁠, on top of hosting ⁠Magic Works training courses⁠, coaching others, supporting Diversity, Equity and Inclusion causes and, of course, winning tonnes of awards (like The Media Leaders Future 100, Media Week’s 30 under 30 and Campaign's star player for the7stars two years in a row, 2022 and 2023). Tashan explains what’s so magic about numbers, and how to spot good numbers versus bad, or more accurately, how to pay attention to the right numbers at the right time based on what you want to do. They also dispel myths around poor analytics, including the danger of the last click attribution obsession and why we need to banish marketers seeing measurement as a bolt on or an afterthought. Tashan and Ben also discuss how to build the life you want through a blended career, rather than just settling for a 9-to-5, how to balance evidence with creative magic, and why it takes a village to raise a campaign. Plus, Tashan compares building a brand to baking a cake, tells us why advice from their grandma changed their life, and becomes the first person to say both ‘pedagogy’ and ‘coffee & walnut’ in Marketing Room 101.

  • Sep 15, 2025 · 38 min

    Robert Solomon’s banishing act: The Art of Client Service author on rescuing account management and retrieving trust and wisdom

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by author of The Art of Client Service, Robert Solomon, who, over four decades in the marketing industry, has garnered a reputation as world’s leading authority on making better advertising by building stronger relationships with clients. Robert demystifies the often-misunderstood world of client service, outlining what it actually is (including the art and science of doing it well) and why removing it will be a big loss for agencies, but a huge loss for brands and clients… for example, would Apple’s iconic 1984 advertising campaign have ever happened without great client relationships? Robert and Ben look at what account managers can do to win back their authority, including the importance of trust and wisdom. Plus, Ben goes on a rant about sandwiches, Robert talks tipping, and explains why the client service discipline is a bit like Levi’s jeans.

  • Aug 25, 2025 · 40 min

    Who let Paul Mellor out? Underdog advertising expert on how to beat the biggest brands

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by underdog advertising’s perennial trouble-maker, Paul Mellor - co-founder of ⁠Mellor & Smith⁠ - the ad agency that gets underdogs noticed. For the past 20 years Paul has helped brands like Paddy Power, Brooks Running, Hotels.com and Fat Lad at the Back get noticed by troubling the market-leading big dogs. Paul and Ben discuss the difference between big dog and underdog brands, why the biggest brands have it easy, and what underdogs need to do to punch above their weight. Paul makes the case to banish underdogs acting like market leaders, and explains why better, braver advertising is the only option available to them. They also discuss the difference between essential critical thinking and pesky problem spotting, how to find the ‘one thing’ to grow your underdog and the joys of loitering (instead of just relying on data). Plus, Paul rants about marketers who do everything they can to avoid thinking, he becomes the first person to say ‘Bonza’ in Marketing Room 101 and he decides that the ultimate underdog is actually an eel. Download your copy of ⁠13.5 Ways to Grow Your Underdog Brand ⁠

  • Aug 4, 2025 · 39 min

    Jordan Stachini’s passionate exclamation: Co&Co founder on better writing, common sense in marketing and not fearing AI

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Jordan Stachini, who describes herself as an ROI obsessed marketer who loves a Guinness and doesn’t do ‘fluffy’. Jordan is the owner and founder of ⁠Co&Co⁠, the agency in Manchester she set-up at 30 years old and just one month before the Covid-19 pandemic stuck. Jordan talks about the journey she’s been on since ‘accidentally’ setting-up an agency, the benefits of choosing stability over speed and the difference between the privilege of stress and the danger of burnout. She also outlines how marketers can be ROI obsessed without killing creativity (and what they can learn from Surreal). Into Marketing Room 101 Jordan commits exclamation marks in pursuit of better writing and storytelling for brands. Jordan and Ben also discuss why (good) marketers need to stop fearing AI, and why a lack of common sense is the reason for most bland advertising. It also becomes clear Ben has no idea what his brother does for a living, while Ben and Jordan disagree about Manchester vs Yorkshire, but agree on North vs South.

  • Jul 21, 2025 · 46 min

    Mick Mahoney’s completely unreasonable: The Complete Creative Director author tackles the enemies of creativity

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by one of the most decorated creative leaders in UK advertising, Mick Mahoney. Mick has led some of the world’s biggest agencies, working with some of the biggest brands from being Creative Director at BBH (including working on Jonnie Walker’s epic ‘The Man Who Walked Around the World’) to ECD at Havas Worldwide and Y&R London, then CCO Ogilvy. But more recently Mick has turned his attention towards helping more people to access creativity, understand it, and feel more confident using it. In doing so Mick has co-authored The Creative Nudge with previous guest Kev Chesters, he's developed the world’s first professional training programme for Creative Directors and released his debut solo book The Complete Creative Director. Mick turns out to be both the most unreasonable (in a good way) and unrestrained guest to enter Marketing Room 101. Ben and Mick discuss the new book, Mick’s stubborn refusal of home office equipment, why Mick has more energy today than 30 years ago and why he’s happy to give away his secrets. Mick then makes the case to banish five (yes five!) things, from brand value vinyls to problem spotters and pool tables. Mick also explains how pitching is destroying the creative industry and why it’s the agency’s fault, not the client’s. Ben is then put in a tricky situation and Mick decides he doesn’t want to murder his family.

  • Jul 7, 2025 · 38 min

    Adam Morgan’s dullocalypse: Challenger brand godfather on the extraordinary cost of dull advertising - and why it’s time to stop tolerating it

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by the godfather of challenger brands and anti-dullness campaigner, Adam Morgan - who, in 1999, after years as a planner in top agencies (including as Planning Director at TBWA\Chiat\Day) - wrote the international best-selling challenger brand bible Eating the Big Fish and set up the consultancy he still runs today: eatbigfish. Adam and Ben discuss challenger brands and what’s changed for them in the past 25 years, as well as Adam’s recent work with Peter Field and Jon Evans on The Extraordinary Cost of Dull - uncovering the true cost of dull creative and media to brands and marketers. Plus, find out what The Four Horsemen of the Dullocalypse are and how to fight them, why cows are more interesting than advertising, why AI could be the saviour, and why Ben’s brother is a genius.

  • Jun 23, 2025 · 34 min

    Louise Tullin’s age old problem: 55/Redefined marketer makes the case for a better approach to age in advertising

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Louise Tullin, Marketing Director at ⁠55/Redefined⁠, an organisation dedicated to changing life and work for people over 50 for the better. Louise and Ben tackle the issue of age in marketing and advertising, looking at how and why the over-50s are being ignored and just how big of a problem it is, through to the commercial case, and why brands should see age as a path to growth, not a box to tick. Plus, what can brands learn from Dove and The Olympic Committee on how to include over 55s without turning off younger audiences? And what can Amazon, Cadbury’s and Gogglebox tell us about the power of including older people in humour? Louise also plugs a load of great books and talks about cats. Links to everything discussed in the episode – ⁠Revolting Women by Lucy Ryan ⁠ ⁠Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez⁠ ⁠Bolder by Carl Honore⁠ ⁠Much More to Come by Eleanor Mills ⁠ ⁠Lifelife: Cat’s Protection Fostering Scheme ⁠

  • May 12, 2025 · 38 min

    Nick Entwistle thinks fast: One Minute Briefs founder on overthinking creativity and disappearing humour in advertising

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by the fastest man in advertising, Nick Entwistle, who set-up ⁠One Minute Briefs⁠ in 2012 to encourage a faster, more instinctive approach to creativity. Over a decade later, the OMB community includes tens of thousands of creatives, producing hundreds of thousands of ideas for a huge list of brands, reaching millions of people across the world in the process. Since Lucozade provided the first branded brief, Nick and the OMB community have gone on to work with brands like Coca-Cola, Guinness and Task Rabbit, through to charities and public organisations including NHS, Missing People and WWF. Nick and Ben talk about the curse of overthinking and the power of committees to destroy great ideas, as well as the potential in communities to create them. Nick also makes the case for the lighter side of marketing, embracing silliness and the return of humour. Plus, Nick gives tips on how to end cyberbullying, names a piece of chalk, and Ben makes him do some quick maths. Learn more about Nick's business ⁠The Bank of Creativity⁠ Learn more about ⁠Cybersmile ⁠

  • Apr 28, 2025 · 36 min

    Dave Harland Reimagined: The Word Man on the serious side of humour, painful predictability and saving straplines

    In this episode, host Ben Norman is joined by Dave Harland, probably the funniest person on LinkedIn, and proud writer of copy and creator of personality for brands great and small across the UK for over 20 years. Dave’s career in marketing has seen him work on both sides of the client/agency fence, both as a copywriter and journalist, until more recently setting-up shop as co-founder of ⁠Copy or Die⁠. Dave and Ben talk about the important side of humour and why it’s not just a laughing matter, they indulge in a spot of lazy advertising bashing and Dave presents an alternative way to build a brand through personality, humanity and lived experience. Plus, Dave makes the case for a lighter approach to heavy subjects (like epidurals), explains why he’s decide not to scam children, and paints a pretty unsettling picture of a cemetery.