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Religion & Spirituality

Holy Smoke

The Spectator

The most important and controversial topics in world religion, thoroughly dissected by a range of high profile guests. Presented by Damian Thompson.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • 236 episodes
  • Updated Friday

Episodes236

  • Apr 14, 2023 · 38 min

    Why didn't Beethoven go to Mass?

    Ludwig van Beethoven had a profound faith in God. He was born and raised a Catholic and on his deathbed he asked to receive the Last Rites. He told the priest, 'I thank you, ghostly sir – you have brought me comfort.' One of his closest friends, Archduke Rudolf of Austria, was made a cardinal (before being ordained priest and bishop, something inconceivable today). To mark Rudolf's enthronement as Archbishop of Olomouc in 1819, Beethoven wrote a great Mass, and took such trouble over the setting of the Latin words that he delivered the work three years late. Yet, so far as we know, not once did the adult Beethoven actually attend a church service. Why? Norman Lebrecht, my guest on this episode of Holy Smoke, offers an explanation in his magnificent new book Why Beethoven: A Phenomenon in 100 Pieces. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Mar 31, 2023 · 16 min

    The battle over female Catholic priests has just begun

    This week we heard the unfamiliar sound of one of the Catholic Church's most influential cardinals turning the handle of a door that has remained firmly shut for 2,000 years. It's marked 'Catholic women priests', a development – such is the pace of chaotic change under this pontificate – that is now a real long-term possibility. Pope Francis says he's against this innovation, but he relentlessly promotes bishops who favour it. Until now, they've been discreet about their views. Now, to use a fashionable cliché, they're saying the quiet bit out loud. As I point out in this episode of Holy Smoke, Catholic conservatives are confident that women will not – indeed, cannot – be ordained to the Catholic priesthood. Unfortunately for them, not just favoured cardinals but a majority of Mass-goers in the West think differently. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Mar 17, 2023 · 19 min

    Is Abu Dhabi's multi-faith 'Abrahamic Family House' a beacon of hope or a creepy PR exercise?

    The Abrahamic Family House is the name for three giant concrete cubes – a church, a mosque and a synagogue – that have just officially opened their doors in Abu Dhabi. The project is the fruit of a controversial agreement signed there in 2019 by Pope Francis and the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, that disturbed many Christians with its statement that the existence of separate religions is God's will. But it's a spectacular coup for the government of the United Arab Emirates and will no doubt reassure expats that there's freedom of religion in the UAE. In fact, I wonder how many of them are even aware that 'apostasy' – for example, a Muslim converting to Christianity – remains a capital offence in the Emirates. But is this sort of carping justified? Since Sharia was adopted by the UAE in 1978, no one has actually been executed for apostasy. And surely the big story here is that Jews, for so long the targets of Muslim anti-semitism, are now welcome to practise their religion in an officially Islamic country. The synagogue of the Abrahamic Family House is the first purpose-built Jewish house of worship to open its doors in the Arab world since the 1930s. There's no doubt that the UAE is moving quickly in the direction of religious toleration, and perhaps we shouldn't be too worried by the boilerplate multi-faith jargon emanating from the pompously named 'Higher Community of Human Fraternity' that presides over the Abrahamic Family House. In this episode of Holy Smoke I weigh the pros and cons of this lavish project with Nathan Eckersley, who's joining the podcast as our new researcher. He's excited by the Abrahamic Family House. I think the jury's still out and I remain to be convinced that the concept of 'Abrahamic faiths' is anything more than an irritating fiction. But listen for yourself. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Feb 24, 2023 · 31 min

    The war over the Latin Mass escalates as the Vatican slides into chaos

    Cardinal Arthur Roche, the Pope's famously ambitious liturgy chief, has stepped up his campaign against the Traditional Latin Mass, which he's been trying to suppress ever since he was Bishop of Leeds 15 years ago. This week he persuaded Francis to back his ruling that the ancient Mass can only be celebrated in parish churches with his permission – thus taking the decision out of the hands of the world's bishops, many of whom are furious at being undermined in this way. Traditionalists are in despair; they aren't optimistic, to put it mildly, that 'Uncle Arthur' will grant permission and they fear there is worse to come. In this week's Holy Smoke I talk to moral theologian and parish priest Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith about the mounting chaos in the Vatican. He says these sort of manoeuvres remind him of the last days of Pope John Paul II, when over- mighty cural chiefs took advantage of the pontiff's advanced age and poor health to wage turf wars. The Catholic Church, he argues, is turning inwards, waging a pointless war over liturgy and wasting time on a meaningless 'Synod on Synodality' instead of addressing the catastrophic fall in Mass attendance, especially in Latin America and Europe. It's a powerful interview; don't miss it. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Jan 10, 2023 · 16 min

    Why Catholics are torn between the Church of Benedict and the Church of Francis

    The fallout from the death of Benedict XVI has been unexpectedly dramatic. Pope Francis's behaviour at his predecessor's Requiem on Thursday struck many observers as graceless. The liberal Catholic journalist Robert Mickens, a long-time opponent of many of Benedict's policies, wrote that Francis 'looked unpleasant throughout the liturgy and, surprisingly (shockingly, some would say), he did not attend the interment of Benedict's body in the crypt after the Mass. The Vatican did not observe a single day of mourning ... There are many of us who were never particularly enamoured of Joseph Ratzinger. But the man was the Bishop of Rome for nearly eight years. And for that alone, he deserved better than this.' In this episode of Holy Smoke I look at the disastrous rupture between the pontificates. The most active Catholics (as opposed to ordinary Mass-goers) are now so divided between the competing theological visions of the two popes that one can speak metaphorically of the 'Church of Benedict' and the 'Church of Francis'. It's a complicated business, but do not assume that because Francis has survived the Pope Emeritus he now has the upper hand. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Dec 22, 2022 · 27 min

    Why children need proper Christmas carols, not hideous agitprop

    It's time for the Holy Smoke Christmas episode! The studio is decorated like a Dolly Parton festive special c. 1977, and my guest is the fearless and feisty Anglican church organist Lois Letts. Our theme is the urgent need to save children from the agitprop 'worship songs' that crop up in nativity and carol services even in Church of England primary schools, all of which make even Miss Parton's cheesiest numbers sound like Handel's Messiah. But be warned: Lois illustrates her point by singing one of them... Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Dec 16, 2022 · 47 min

    How ‘cancelled’ conservative Catholic priests are fighting to clear their names

    In this episode of Holy Smoke, I interview Fr John Lovell, who is one of a growing number of American Catholic priests who claim to have been suspended from ministry simply because their conservative views offend their bishops. Fr Lovell's Coalition for Cancelled Priests is gathering support among US traditionalists – which is hardly surprising given the Kafkaesque experiences of some priests at the hands of the authorities. But there’s a problem: some of the coalition's supporters believe in far-right conspiracy theories that hand ammunition to left-wing bishops and their allies in the liberal Catholic media. I thought Fr Lovell might take offence when I raised this subject in our conversation – but, as you'll hear, he talks with refreshing frankness about the conservative ideological infighting that has proved such a gift to 'Team Francis'. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Nov 28, 2022 · 33 min

    What are Church of England services really like?

    Last week, out of a mixture of curiosity and boredom, I ended up watching an online Church of England Eucharist from a parish church in Hereford. The text of the liturgy was almost identical to that of the Catholic Mass I had attended the night before. We'd even sung the same hymn, and the celebrant’s vestments were indistinguishable from those of a Roman Catholic priest. But the person wearing them was a woman, and it reminded me that since that particular battle ended nearly 30 years ago I had been present at only one C of E Sunday Eucharist. So in this episode of Holy Smoke I ask William Moore, The Spectator’s features editor, what it’s like to attend Anglican services outside London, as he does weekly with his young family in Sussex. I think you’ll enjoy what he has to say. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Oct 20, 2022 · 14 min

    Sixty years on, Vatican II turns nasty

    Ten years ago the Catholic Church happily celebrated the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council. Most people thought it was a good thing – and those who had their doubts were careful to express them diplomatically. Sixty years on, by contrast, Vatican II is the source of rancorous division in a collapsing Church. Liberals, describing themselves as 'The People of God', are invoking it to propose surreal changes to the doctrine that would have scandalised the Council fathers. They like to portray the forthcoming two Synods on Synodality – whose consultations attracted only a minuscule number of lay Catholics – as the fulfilment of Vatican II. Even, in some circles, as a sort of Vatican III. Meanwhile, traditionalists, assured by Benedict XVI that they could attend the Latin Mass without rejecting the Council, are now regularly mocked by Pope Francis for their 'rigidity'. He's busy banning their Masses, claiming that they're incompatible with Vatican II. And some traditionalists are wondering if he's right – in the sense that it was the Council that sowed the seeds of what they regard as the Bergoglian heresy. Conspiracy theories abound. In this episode of Holy Snoke I ask whether, considering not just this present nastiness but also the failure of the 'People of God' to meet the evangelical challenges of the Council, it might have been better if Vatican II had never happened. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Sep 27, 2022 · 19 min

    The Catholic Church is falling apart at the seams

    This headline may seem sensational, but the evidence is overwhelming. The Catholic Church is experiencing a bewildering range of crises, some of them long-term and familiar, such as demographic collapse and the continuing scandal of sex abuse. Others are being manufactured by a Pope who is allowing a faction of Catholic boomers to push an incoherent 'New Age' agenda. Whether Francis truly supports their ideas is anyone's guess – but he's increasingly willing to spout their inanities. On Saturday the Pope's official Twitter account told the faithful: 'The plant paradigm takes a different approach to earth and environment. Plants cooperate with all the surroundings [sic] environment; even when they compete, they cooperate for the good of the ecosystem. Let’s learn from the meekness of plants!' This was tagged #TimeofCreation. But creation of what? Yesterday, Luke Coppen of The Pillar reported that the Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam in the Netherland – where plant-based spirituality has been trendy for decades – will be closing 99 out of its 164 Catholic churches over the next five years. This may be a depressing episode of Holy Smoke – but, given that the mainstream media isn't interested in the fate of the Catholic Church, I do recommend that you listen to it. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Sep 2, 2022 · 33 min

    Why has the West caved in to the progressive witch-finders?

    Is western society in the grips of a progressive hysterical epidemic comparable to the Salem Witch Trials? My guest on Holy Smoke this week, Andrew Doyle, argues precisely that in his book The New Puritans. He suggests that gender ideology, and particularly the dogmas of trans activists, together with the fantasies of Critical Race Theory, are dragging society into an alternative reality that resembles a fanatical religion. But it's one that doesn't have to employ its own ideological police – because actual police forces, along with other powerful institutions including the churches, have signed up to the New Puritanism (usually without understanding it). Andrew Doyle has a doctorate in Renaissance poetry from Oxford University, so he's well acquainted with the postmodern manipulation of language and epistemology that equip proponents of so-called cancel culture. He'e also someone the new puritans would dearly love to cancel, in his roles as broadcaster, comedian and the creator of Titania McGrath, the hilarious Twitter parody account that's been suspended several times for poking fun at people who enjoy being satirised about as much as your average witchfinder-general. Don't miss my interview with the formidable Dr Doyle! Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Aug 16, 2022 · 21 min

    Is Pope Francis protecting a convicted sex abuser?

    In this episode of Holy Smoke, I look at the ever-deepening mysteries surrounding Bishop Gustavo Zanchetta, who was given a job assessing Vatican finances after he was forced to resign from his diocese in Argentina following allegations of abusive behaviour and financial mismanagement. This year Zanchetta received a lengthy jail sentence for abusing seminarians. But he’s serving his time in a comfortable monastery, while the clergy who investigated him are the targets of a mysterious Vatican investigation. Now one of the abused seminarians has spoken out, accusing the Pope of protecting Zanchetta. This is potentially the biggest scandal involving a reigning pope for decades – and yet the mainstream media seems to be looking the other way. But I’m not. Don’t miss this episode. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Jul 14, 2022 · 24 min

    Why the Pope's 'Synod on Synodality' has become a joke

    The Catholic Church is half way through a two-year consultation exercise that will culminate in a 'Synod on Synodality' in the Vatican next year. A synod on what? Don't worry if you're confused. No one in Rome seems to be able to define synodality, either. What will the world's bishops discuss? Probably not the figures revealing how many Catholics have taken part in this exercise, because they're acutely embarrassing. The English and Welsh bishops couldn't even get 10 per cent of Mass-goers to take part in a consultation process that many observers suspect has been shamelessly rigged by Pope Francis's bureaucrats. And in Belgium, a country where some six million people identify as Catholic, the number of participants is somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000. My guest on this episode of Holy Smoke is Ed Condon, editor of the influential Pillar website. His judgment is as impartial as ever – but, make no mistake about it, we're looking at one of the most expensive and self-indulgent fiascos in recent Catholic history. Produced by Damian Thompson and Cindy Yu. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Jun 6, 2022 · 11 min

    The Queen's powerful Christian faith

    In this week's Holy Smoke I offer some thoughts on the impressive and distinctive Christian faith of the Queen – impressive because it's so refreshingly direct compared to that of many of her politics-obsessed bishops, and distinctive because Elizabeth II is one of a dwindling band of Low Church but not Evangelical Anglicans whose favourite Sunday service is old-fashioned Matins. Questions of churchmanship aside, however, there is no doubting the intensity of her convictions, about which she has spoken with increasing candour and confidence in recent years. Will she turn out to be the United Kingdom's last robustly Christian monarch? Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • May 30, 2022 · 24 min

    Why is the Church of England so obsessed with racism?

    My guest on Holy Smoke this week is, many people believe, a victim of the intolerant progressive ideology currently gripping the Church of England. He's Calvin Robinson, a name possibly familiar to you from the row over the Diocese of London's decision not to ordain him. Calvin is a young TV presenter with conservative Christian views that conflict with the liberal opinions of the hierarchy. He's been told they are too divisive – which is a bit rich coming from an organisation whose senior bishops routinely express opinions far to the left of those of the average churchgoer. Particular offence was caused by his insistence that the C of E isn't 'institutionally racist'. The fact that he's mixed race and London's bishops are white made no difference: he had expressed a heretical opinion. So much for 'diversity'. Do listen to what he has to say. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • May 5, 2022 · 11 min

    The Catholic Church's muddle over Roe vs Wade

    So Roe vs. Wade is as good as dead. Americans are about to lose their constitutional right to an abortion. Five out of the nine Supreme Court justices have drafted an opinion in their forthcoming ruling on a Mississippi abortion case which strikes down the 1973 Roe ruling as 'egregiously wrong from the start'. As we all know it’s been leaked – but it’s expected to be issued pretty much unchanged in the next few weeks because, even if they wanted to, the justices can't change their votes without appearing to succumb to political pressure. The unprecedented leaking of that draft opinion has been greeted by jubilation from religious conservatives and the degree of outrage that I don't think I've ever seen before by liberal opinion and the mainstream media, which amount to the same thing, really, in America. And in Britain too, at least on this topic: I haven’t seen certain BBC hacks so distressed since Trump got elected. In this episode of Holy Smoke, I concentrate on one specific aspect of this extraordinary situation. Given that the striking down of Roe vs. Wade wouldn't actually make abortion illegal, but instead make it a matter for state law, you might think that Catholic bishops would have no reservations whatsoever about this decision. Isn’t this the famous subsidiarity in action? Not so. For quite a few bishops, including liberal cardinals loyal to the Biden administration, this week's news has come as a very nasty surprise. To find out why, listen to the podcast. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Apr 28, 2022 · 24 min

    A plan to rescue Christian art

    Few things are more depressing than the art, architecture and furnishings of the average modern church. The glorious aesthetic of light and colour of the Middle Ages and Renaissance has been replaced with an infantile modernist decor more suited to a primary school than a place of worship. In the Catholic Church, especially, bishops who may privately have reasonably good taste happily commission cringeworthy 1970s-style art because they think it's demanded by 'the spirit of Vatican II'. Is there any way Christian art can escape from the grip of mediocrity? My guest on this episode of Holy Smoke thinks there is. She's the charismatic Rome-based art historian Dr Elizabeth Lev, whose TED talk about the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is both erudite and, in places, hilarious. Liz's plan to rescue Church art is ingenious and, I think, achievable. But to find out more you'll have to listen to the podcast. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Apr 15, 2022 · 21 min

    Monsignor Michael Nazir-Ali on his first Easter as a Catholic

    My guest on this episode of Holy Smoke was an Anglican bishop for 37 years – one of the Church of England's foremost scholars and its leading witness for persecuted Christians. He was also an evangelical who, as bishop of the ancient see of Rochester, ordained women priests. But, as of this month, his title is Monsignor. I am, of course, talking about the Pakistani-born Michael Nazir-Ali, whose decision to join the Ordinariate has come as an enormous, if surprising, boost to the fortunes of that small but dynamic organisation for ex-Anglicans set up by Pope Benedict XVI. This will be his first Easter not just as a monsignor – he has just been made a Prelate of Honour by Pope Francis – but as a Catholic. I hope you enjoy our wide-ranging discussion in which, inevitably, I ask Mgr Nazir-Ali whether he's changed his mind about women priests. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Apr 8, 2022 · 22 min

    It’s time the West saved Nigeria’s persecuted Christians

    Did you know that in the last year more Christians have been killed for their faith in Nigeria than anywhere else in the world combined? In 2021, at least 6,000 Christians died for their faith, and 80 per cent of those were Nigerians. Their murderers were – you may not be too shocked to learn – almost to a man Islamists. But, this being Nigeria, a supposedly secular state where northern provinces impose Sharia on their populations, the situation is chaotic. Four different groups are implicated. They are: the notorious Boko Haram; the so-called 'Islamic State in West African Province'; armed bandits; and an ethnic group of Fulani militants, often described in the media as herders – which they traditionally are, but these days they seem to more interested in slaughtering Christians than in their livestock. To quote the Christian charity Open Doors, 'killing Christian men is a key strategy for these groups because it destroys livelihoods, with men tending to be the family's main breadwinner, and depopulates Christian communities.' The violence employed by the Fulani herdsman in particular is so grotesque that I won't describe it in detail, but if I tell you that their targets include pregnant women and specifically their unborn children that will give you some idea of the apocalyptic horror involved. My guest on Holy Smoke today is a remarkable man: Pastor Ayo Adedoyin, based at Jesus House in London. He's also chief executive officer of an international development and human rights charity, PSJ UK, which tries to mobilise Africans in the UK into a cohesive voice on this subject. It's an urgent task. We're talking about a genocidal campaign that Ayo compares to the blood-soaked slaughter in the streets of Ukraine – but for years it hasn't attracted anything like the publicity it deserves. And the reason for that is that the international media and also international politicians don't seem particularly interested in the religious dimension of this conflict. The British Foreign Office – despite various promises – hasn't really responded to repeated calls to make it a higher priority. The Trump administration made some attempt, but a US administration led by a supposed Catholic, Joe Biden, has fallen quiet. Do please listen to what Pastor Ayo has to say. Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  • Mar 21, 2022 · 18 min

    'I don't think we've gained anything' – Cardinal Pell on the Vatican and China

    Cardinal George Pell has given a wide-ranging interview to The Spectator's Holy Smoke podcast in which he criticises the Vatican's 2018 deal with Beijing and especially the secrecy surrounding it. The unpublished pact allows the Chinese Communist Party to choose Catholic bishops, whose appointments are then rubber-stamped by Pope Francis. 'I know high-up people in the Vatican are very dissatisfied with the way things are going,' says Pell, the former Vatican Prefect for the Economy. 'The agreement is there to try to get a bit of space for the Catholics. Obviously that's praiseworthy. [But] I don't think we've gained anything. The persecutions seem to be continuing. In some places they've got worse.' Nobody 'outside a small circle' knows the details of the agreement, 'which seems to me to be quite irregular.' The cardinal was imprisoned in his native Australia on trumped-up sex charges before being acquitted by the country's High Court. It is widely believed that his enemies in the Vatican played a part in framing him. In the interview, Pell doesn't discuss his own ordeal – but he does express concern at the lack of transparency in the ongoing Vatican trial of Cardinal Angelo Becciu, the Pope's former chief of staff, and his associates, who are accused of committing large-sale fraud. While affirming his loyalty to Pope Francis, Pell also makes clear his unhappiness with the sudden move last year to restrict celebrations of the traditional Latin Mass. 'I think it was a most unfortunate decision and I think a bit inexplicable, too,' he says. But he advises traditionalists to keep calm, because there are signs that the very hard line taken by the Vatican's liturgy chief, the Yorkshire-born Archbishop Arthur Roche, is now being reconsidered. Last month, Pope Francis told the traditionalist Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) that it could continue celebrating Mass and other sacraments using the old Missal, granting them a greater degree of freedom than Roche favoured. Cardinal Pell says 'the working presumption' should be that the clarified rights of the FSSP also extend to other traditionalist priestly fraternities, such as the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (ICKSP). Become a Spectator subscriber today to access this podcast without adverts. Go to spectator.co.uk/adfree to find out more. For more Spectator podcasts, go to spectator.co.uk/podcasts. Contact us: podcast@spectator.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.