Forking Off

Stacey Young Connects Us All

Stacey Young spent over 18 years at the Justice Department as an attorney; first in the Civil Division for 13 years, then in the Civil Rights Division for 5 more. Having founded the Gender Equality Network to make DOJ a better place for its employees in 2016, Stacey knew going into 2025 that DOJ employees would need support from outside. Shortly after inauguration, she resigned from her role at the Department to build Justice Connection—the direct support group DOJ employees needed. Stacey didn't need a crystal ball to know that DOJ employees would be targeted by the new administration: they said it out loud. Within the federal government, only DOJ had investigated the President for his previous unlawful actions, which made the need for Justice Connection obvious. Stacey issued her call to action as a guest essay in The New York Times, where she encouraged the public to support DOJ employees in their effort to keep the department on track. Later that month, Stacey answered the call. Highlights & Topics Making the Connection: Stacey's transition from an 18-year veteran DOJ attorney to non-profit founder working 90 hour weeks with a skeleton crew Retribution: Learn why FBI and DOJ employees were uniquely vulnerable to politically-motivated attacks and how Justice Connection established itself as a lifeline for those who are targeted Direct Support Networks: Explore how the Legal Network (250+ pro bono attorneys), Mental Health Support (100+ clinicians), Employment Support, and all of the other ways Justice Connection provides alumni with opportunities to continue supporting justice FBI Support: The FBI Support Network is helping FBI employees draw their red lines and doing what FBI professionals can't do from the inside: speak out against attacks on the workforce and raise awareness about the importance of its work Additional Resources Justice Connection: Connect with Stacey on LinkedIn, read more about her work, and support her mission at https://thejusticeconnection.org FBI Support Network: FBI employees can reach out to the FBI Support Network at protectandassist@protonmail.com. Do not use an FBI-owned device, an FBI network, or an FBI email address; never include sensitive information in an email subject line; and consider using a dedicated email address. Email headers are never encrypted! Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on Ko-fi, and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Bluesky, LinkedIn, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

Danielle Carnes Decries the Ugly American

Growing up in a small town in rural Northern California, Danielle Carnes longed to travel the world and make it a better place. She remembers visiting her grandma's house and seeing an old 1970s world map on the wall with pins showing all the places her grandfather had visited for work. She imagined traveling to new places and wondered about the different people she might meet. While studying international relations at UC Davis, Danielle traveled to Ghana for her study abroad, and it was life-changing. She chose Ghana because it was one of the only affordable programs for a kid from rural America. The people she met told her she didn't act like other Americans; she was different. That's when she realized less affluent people like her don't usually get these opportunities. This experience pushed Danielle to her work at USAID where she served as a Democracy, Human Rights, and Governance Officer in Guinea. After the 2024 elections, Danielle thought her work at USAID would continue as it had since the Obama administration. She knew there might be changes because of Project 2025 and DOGE, but Danielle was excited about DOGE. The thought of improving government efficiency was alluring. Danielle quickly realized government efficiency was not the goal. DOGE was a political revenge machine, and USAID was first on the chopping block. This realization was striking given her roots: Danielle grew up in a conservative, evangelical Christian household. She had been a Republican in her younger adulthood. She interned at the Heritage Foundation. But, Danielle is quick to point out, the party moved away from her, not the other way around. Since being forced out at USAID, Danielle has remained active in her community and continues to look for ways to continue public service. She attends the Quaker meeting in Washington, DC. She's a volunteer at the Bladensburg Volunteer Fire Department and is taking EMT training. Danielle is interested in political writing and engagement and has considered running for office. Highlights & Topics: Civic Roots: Hear how growing up in rural Northern California, a faith-based upbringing, and a life-changing study abroad experience in Ghana shaped Danielle's commitment to public service. Federal Service: Danielle's path from a Presidential Management Fellow (PMF) data analyst under the Obama administration through her time as a Democracy, Human Rights, and Governance Officer in Guinea and Sierra Leone. DOGE Illusion vs. Reality: Why Danielle initially welcomed efficiency efforts, only to realize DOGE was operating as a political tool aimed at dismantling USAID and eliminating critical foreign aid. Political Evolution: Danielle reflects on her conservative roots, interning at the Heritage Foundation, and watching the party shift away from the principles she supported. Community Service: How Danielle is continuing her mission of public service through her Quaker meeting, EMT training, and volunteering with the Bladensburg Volunteer Fire Department. Rebuilding Democracy: Danielle's perspective on what real constitutional and systemic reforms would be needed for former civil servants to ever return to government. Additional Resources: Former Feds & Friends: Connect with Danielle on LinkedIn and check out the Former Feds & Friends channel on YouTube. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on Ko-fi, and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Bluesky, LinkedIn, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, DOJ, USAID, the United States, or any past or current employers.

Jeffrey Sizemore Embarks on the Third Act

Jeffrey Sizemore spent over two decades serving the United States, first as a U.S. Navy Surface Warfare Officer and later as a civil servant at the State Department. As the Senior Advisor on Atrocity Prevention and Deputy Director in the Office of Security and Human Rights, Jeff helped operationalize the Elie Wiesel Genocide and Atrocities Prevention Act. He built comprehensive curriculums and traveled globally to train foreign service officers on how to mitigate the risks of mass violence, identify warning signs, and understand what post-conflict justice looks like. When the second Trump administration began in 2025, Jeff watched as assistance for human rights programs was frozen and Reductions-in-Force (RIFs) gutted critical conflict, stabilization, and global criminal justice bureaus. Though Jeff was spared from the RIFs, his office was eliminated, and he was pushed toward a role focused on wielding human rights sanctions against judges and the International Criminal Court. Unwilling to compromise his moral standing or act counter to the very international accountability he had championed, Jeff made the difficult decision to resign in September 2025. Now in his third act, Jeff has taken his expertise to Brisbane, Australia, serving as the Mary Wing-Ming Lee Senior Human Rights Research Fellow at the Asia Pacific Centre for the Responsibility to Protect at the University of Queensland. He is also a regular host on the YouTube channel Former Feds & Friends, using pop culture and movies like Zootopia 2 to make sense of today’s global challenges. He continues his lifelong mission by educating the next generation of diplomats who will eventually be needed to rebuild these critical global initiatives. Highlights & Topics: Two Decades of Service: Jeff's journey from a 20-year career in the U.S. Navy—deploying to the Middle East and Pacific—to finding his calling at the State Department Operationalizing Prevention: How Jeff built an interagency curriculum to train foreign service officers on justice, human rights, and atrocity prevention under the Elie Wiesel Act Tearing it Down to the Studs: A firsthand account of the 2025 RIFs that eliminated entire bureaus dedicated to conflict stabilization, global criminal justice, and security Crossing the Moral Line: Why Jeff chose to resign rather than weaponize human rights sanctions against the international community The Third Act: Jeff's pivot to educating the next generation of diplomats in Australia and his advice for former feds looking to continue their mission at the state, local, or international NGO level Additional Resources: Former Feds & Friends: Watch Jeff and former guest Madeline Vellturo discuss democracy, stability, and atrocity prevention through the lens of pop culture Civic Match / Work for America: A resource for former federal employees looking to transition their specialized skills and expertise to state and local governments Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on Ko-fi, and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Bluesky, LinkedIn, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the State Department, the United States, or any past or current employers.

Michael Duffin Advocates for Feds

Michael Duffin served as a senior policy advisor at the State Department's Bureau of Counterterrorism for 12 years. When he received an invite for a 15-minute meeting titled "Update on the Reorganization," he never suspected it would mark an early end to his career. Michael helped stand up the Office of Countering Violent Extremism (CT/CVE), which led the Department's international engagement and assistance efforts to prevent violent extremists and their supporters from radicalizing, recruiting, or inspiring acts of violence. His layoff was part of a wider 'Reduction-in-Force' that impacted 1,107 State Department employees. Since leaving federal service, Michael has taken up the fight for former feds by running for Congress in Virginia's 8th District. Michael is dedicating his campaign to public service and vowing to prioritize the reinstatement of all feds. He also pledged not to accept corporate donations or trade stocks while in office. As a result, Michael faces a huge battle on the campaign trail, but he remains committed to memorializing this moment in time and spreading the message that feds matter, and they're worth fighting for. Highlights & Topics: The 15-Minute Meeting: Hear Michael’s firsthand account of the shock of the reorganization, the "blacklisting" barriers for reentry, and the brain drain at the State Department. Dangerously Unprepared: How the loss of vital CVE programming and decades of experienced leadership leaves the U.S. vulnerable ahead of the 2026 World Cup and America 250 celebrations. The Trust Gap: Why a lack of trust between communities and the federal government severely compromises counterterrorism efforts, and what individuals should do if they see something suspicious at large gatherings. Memorializing the Moment: Why Michael walked out with a "Diplomacy Matters, Feds Matter" sign, his experience taking his story to The Daily Show, and what he hopes his children learn from his fight. Additional Resources: Duffin4VA: Visit Michael's campaign site to learn more about his platform and follow his journey. 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call or text 988. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on Ko-fi, and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Bluesky, LinkedIn, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the State Department, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Elizabeth Ginexi Defends Science

Elizabeth Ginexi served as a scientific program official at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) for 22 years. During that time, she stewarded taxpayer investments in biomedical and behavioral research. An applied social psychologist by training, Liz's work spanned historic public health initiatives, from building the scientific framework for FDA tobacco regulations to developing non-pharmacological pain treatments for veterans. When the administration began dismantling NIH, Liz took an early retirement rather than comply with antiscientific directives. She's since become a fierce advocate for the Addiction Science Defense Network and scientists everywhere. She's put her analytic talents to work on Substack by writing about the internal collapse of the world's premier biomedical research agency. Highlights & Topics: Liz's Story: Hear Liz’s firsthand account of the coordinated communication freezes, grant cancellations, and assault on career scientists. Near-Term Risk: How the loss of nearly 5,000 NIH employees and the slashing of funding opportunities will gut an industry that generates billions for the U.S. economy. Long-Term Threat: Why the true cost of abandoning biomedical research won’t be visible until future generations lack critical treatments and cures. Call for Advocacy: Why scientists must embrace activism, and how the public and private sectors can step in to sustain U.S. innovation. Additional Resources: Stand Up for Science: Stand Up For Science is a political activism organization dedicated to defending and advancing America’s scientific ecosystem, a cornerstone of democracy, freedom, and progress. Union of Concerned Scientists: The Union of Concerned Scientists puts rigorous, independent science into action, developing solutions and advocating for a healthy, safe, and just future. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠⁠website⁠⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the NIH, the United States, or any past or current employers.

Alec Chapa Builds Community

Alec Chapa found his ideal role as a conciliator with DOJ's Community Relations Service (CRS). From a young age, Alec was interested in bringing people together to talk through conflict. He was fascinated by Gandhi's strategy of civil disobedience. In 2016, he participated in a private mentorship with Philosopharian in Astoria, Oregon, where he learned about empowering individuals and communities through philosophy. After running his own dispute resolution consulting business for several years, Alec found his dream job with CRS in 2024. When the second Trump administration began, Alec saw CRS sidelined and felt that he and his colleagues were being forced out of their jobs. When the second deferred resignation offer was presented in April 2025, Alec accepted it because he could not afford the risk of staying. After leaving CRS, Alec continued his life's work of helping groups work together more collaboratively, transparently, and effectively. He launched HousingShield, a new housing dispute resolution program, through his company Mosaic Collaborative Consulting. In this episode, we speak with Alec about the void left by the decimation of Community Relations Service and what we can do in its absence. We also provide listeners with actionable advice on how to engage local leaders, preserve digital evidence, and prepare for future reconciliation efforts. Highlights & Topics: Tracking the Exodus: Philip introduces Separation Anxiety, our new data project exploring separations across federal agencies between January 2025 and January 2026. The Legacy and Loss of CRS: A look back at CRS's history of averting violence after Bloody Sunday in Selma in 1965 contrasted against it's loss in 2025 and what that means for cities like Minneapolis. Whistleblower Complaints: Discussion of a recent whistleblower complaint by a former senior CRS official alleging the DOJ misled a federal court regarding the dismantling of the agency. Congressional Pushback: Highlighting Representative Jamie Raskin's letter emphasizing that CRS was built for moments of crisis and could have surged mediators to Minneapolis. Weaponizing 2339a: Concerns over the administration's willingness to pursue 2339a "material support to terrorism" cases against activists and non-profits rather than coming to the table for mediation. Revenge vs. Reconciliation: An argument for removing "retribution" from the journalistic lexicon when describing the administration's actions, identifying it instead as political revenge while advocating for true, measured reconciliation in the future. Historical Activism: Drawing parallels between modern social media and the historic information-sharing tactics of Martin Luther and Alexander Hamilton. Local Engagement & Documenting Injustice: A call to action urging listeners to engage with state and local officials, while also emphasize the importance of actively documenting injustice wherever it is found. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠website⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Dan Tully Talks Elections

Dan Tully left the U.S. Department of Commerce in protest of the administration's destructive foreign policy approach. Dan's background as a Judge Advocate in the Army Reserve gave him experience advising on counter-Chinese influence efforts in the Indo-Pacific. While Dan was building an anti-corruption program for Ukraine's Ministry of Reconstruction, the administration abandoned critical partnerships, echoed Kremlin talking points, and berated Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the White House. Dan is now running for the U.S. House of Representatives in Chicago, Illinois, where he hopes to implement his Trump Accountability Plan and restore the rule of law by wielding Congress's power of inherent contempt and puncturing sovereign immunity for federal agents acting outside the scope of the law. As we approach the midterm elections, the election conspiracies of 2020 and 2024 are making a comeback alongside threats of voter suppression and intimidation from the White House and MAGA-sphere. In this episode, we cut through the noise of election conspiracies. We discuss how same-day voter registration led to false claims of "more votes than voters" during the 2024 elections. We also explain how a voter fraud prevention tool led to false claims of one state having "more registered voters than voting-age population." We round out our examination of election fraud conspiracies by explaining why the Election Truth Alliance's conspiracy theories masked as statistical analysis did not prove voter fraud in the 2024 presidential race. We discuss how misinterpreting academic research and ignoring important methodological distinctions to justify demands for hand counts doesn't begin to address the actual threats voters could face at the polls in 2026, such as the weaponization of federal law enforcement as recently seen in Fulton County, Georgia. As the executive branch tramples constitutional boundaries in an effort to centralize power, we discuss the constitutional remedies available to Congress, the States, and the People, as well as legislative proposals that would further strengthen checks on executive power, including the Bivens Act, the Universal Constitutional Remedies Act, and inherent contempt. Finally, we discuss historical precedents that allowed the States to regulate federal law enforcement activity within their borders. We highlight how first principles such as federalism and separation of powers create a system of governance designed to protect the rights of the people. We recently saw this system in action when the Supreme Court ruled on Learning Resources, Inc. v. Trump in a 6-3 decision to reject the President's unilateral imposition of tariffs, which are reserved for the contemplative processes of the legislature. Read about Dan's platform on his website or connect with him on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the Department of Commerce, the Army Reserve, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Allan Dinkoff Bears Witness

Allan Dinkoff didn't plan to bear witness to the destruction of the civil service when he enrolled in the International Center of Photography's documentary photography program, but he couldn't ignore the story of civil servants targeted by the second Trump administration. Allan spent the last year interviewing and photographing over 65 civil servants across at least 19 federal agencies who left their jobs because of the administration. Through his project, Targeted: Portraits of Civil Servants Under Trump, Allan challenges the administration's claim that civil servants are just "collateral damage" caused by a need for efficiency. He tells stories of the resilience he witnessed while interviewing a cross-section of America, and how many of the employees pivoted to new roles. In the wake of Reductions-in-Force at the Department of Health and Human Services, Allan highlights the rapid response effort of wellfed to create a support network for fired feds, and the startup micro-bakery Gingersnap Jess Cookies. Allan's work didn't stop in DC though. He also traveled to Poland to interview former USAID employees who funded their own travel there to assist Ukrainian refugees. More recently, Allan made his way to sunny Los Angeles and sat down with Forking Off hosts Jill and Philip Fields for an in-person interview. Through our discussion, we explored the idea of what it has meant to be an American for the last 250 years and the existential threat authoritarianism imposes on that idea. Allan also delves deeper into our stories by asking some of the questions we never would have thought to ask each other. Check out Allan's portfolio on his website, or connect with him on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠⁠website⁠⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider leaving a tip on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

• Transcript

Wake the Fork Up

What the fork!? It's only been a year? This feels more like a post-mortem on the American Experiment than a year-end review. Yes, we're celebrating the fact that we survived an entire year of the second Trump administration's assault on democracy, but we're also bracing for the next three. Last year, we watched as USAID was decimated; domestic terrorists were pardoned; and truth was flipped on its head. This year, we're getting civically fit while embracing the reality that nobody is coming to save us. It's time to wake up, shake off our bias, weigh the facts, challenge authority, resist conformity, and demand accountability. It's time to go forth and do great things. We're not just doing pep talks though. We're sharing tools that everyone can use to navigate this new information environment and build more resilient institutions. Let's start by putting a label on what's really been happening to American society for the last year. The term that came to define Germany in the 1930s, Gleichshaltung loosely translates to synchronization or coordination, but the English language does little to capture it's ambition. Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels' vision was synchronization "to the point where the whole nation will think in unison and there will be only one public opinion." It sounds alarmist to describe 2025 with such similarity to German Nazification, but the parallels are undeniable. The reservation comes from the first bias we must address, if we wish to remain a free society. Normalcy bias is often described as a cognitive bias that manifests as a tendency to underestimate the possibility of disaster, believing life will continue as normal, even in the face of overwhelming threats. Let's say it together. The threat is overwhelming. So, who's going to stop it? This leads us to our next bias. The Bystander Effect is a type of cognitive dissonance resulting from the diffusion of responsibility, wherein the more people who are present for an emergency the less likely any one is to intervene. We are seeing this play out across the globe. It's happening on the individual level when law enforcement officers ignore their duty to intervene in the presence of ICE's unchecked abuse of power. It's also happening at the global scale as governments struggle to address the rapid normative shift. Where do we start? The key to challenging the normalization of deviance is learning to spot deception. Even bad lies can greatly disrupt social norms. Identifying techniques to spot deception can make it easier to move forward with confidence. Let's look at a few. MOM: Does the individual have the Motive, Opportunity, and Means to deceive? POP: Is the deception consistent with Past Opposition Practices? MOSES: Is there a concern over the Manipulability of Sources? EVE: What can we learn from the Evaluation of Evidence? When we're told to believe a thing to be true while only being allowed a small subset of facts provided by an administration with a history of deceit, we must proceed with caution. If we can't rely on past sources of information, how can we build resilient institutions? We start by approaching the challenge from a different perspective called outside-in thinking. In addition to sharing the stories of those most closely affected by the administration's assault, we'll also be sharing more tips and practical examples of how we can all build resilience in the coming year. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠website⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

• Transcript

Philip Fields Sifts Through the Wreckage

The decay didn’t start with the election. The realization the Bureau was too fragile to survive started in the quiet, persistent failures of earlier years. By Election Day 2024, the writing was on the wall. FBI leadership had already surrendered. My initial reaction to "The Fork in the Road" email was visceral. When the email arrived, I hesitated. Twenty years of public service—thirteen as an FBI intelligence analyst—is no small thing to throw away. As my colleagues speculated over the legitimacy of the buyout and the institution crumbled around us, I recalled a friend's departing words from years earlier. They felt like they could do more for the FBI’s mission by not working there. I finally understood. Jill and I looked at our savings, and I weighed the moral cost of staying. Two weeks later and just hours before a federal judge brought the first deferred resignation period to a halt, I walked into a meeting with the head of the Los Angeles Field Office and told him I was leaving. I was hoping for a reason to stay but expecting nothing. I lacked faith in his ability to guide us through the darkness ahead. He sat there quiet and meaningless; a shape without form. Disinterested, unaware, and seemingly unbothered by the storm raging outside his door. He asked for more time; a gesture without motion. I left his office, returned to my desk, and replied ‘resign.’ Four months later, I watched the news in horror as FBI Police placed United States Senator Alex Padilla in handcuffs just down the hall from where we’d met. Senator Padilla was detained for having the audacity to ask a question during a press conference in the FBI Los Angeles Field Office's Luis Flores Conference Room. At the head of the room, the same hollow man who had failed me months earlier stood by silent, a paralyzed force, headpiece filled with straw, leaning together among the rest of the hollow men. His silence was deafening; the irony suffocating. Luis Flores was a Salvadoran immigrant who grew up in a tough Chicago neighborhood, earned a law degree, and became an FBI agent at 26. The room was named to honor his memory. Yet, in that very room, the memory of Luis Flores was desecrated. For the first time in years, I have my voice. I, too, can do more for the FBI's mission from the outside. In a year when over 300,000 employees left federal service, hosting this podcast can feel a bit like The Star Thrower—tossing one sea star at a time amidst the wreckage and debris of life. Yet, there's solace in knowing we’re taking an active role in our strained democracy rather than idly watching its destruction. Maybe we’ll even inspire a few more throwers to join us at the foot of the receding rainbow. We’re also building Ravenwood Intelligence Cooperative where intelligence services are democratized, owned by the members, and driven by ethics and civic virtue rather than shareholders or political agendas. Two distinct paths diverged at the "Fork in the Road." One—a sunlit path crowded with hollow men—laid out clearly what would be expected, and the reward granted the compliant traveler. The other, vacant, bent into the undergrowth of uncertainty. I knew there would be no turning back. That was fine by me. I took the one less traveled. I’m tired of merely watching the destruction. It’s time to build something new. You can connect with Philip on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

• Transcript

Jill Fields Follows Her Moral Compass

Growing up, I never considered working for the FBI. To me, the FBI was just special agents kicking in doors, arresting violent criminals, and putting themselves in harm's way. I wanted to help people, but let's face it: guns are scary, and I don't like running. As one of my high school best friends reminded me recently, I drove a pink car and wore bows in my hair. I was not what you think of when you think of FBI employees. In 2012, Philip joined the FBI. His first week on the job, he came home and told me about the Intelligence Analyst job. It was research, analysis, writing, briefing, and no guns or running. It was all the skills I learned as an attorney, but instead of applying those skills to divorces, contract disputes, and real estate deals, I could do something even bigger: protect our nation from terrorists, spies, and violent criminals. After four years of sequestration and hiring freezes, I joined the FBI in May 2016. The first six years, I worked counterterrorism matters, including a joint duty assignment as an FBI Liaison Officer at CIA's Counterterrorism Mission Center. In January of 2022, I became a Supervisory Intelligence Analyst in FBI's Los Angeles field office. I served as the intelligence coordinator for the Violent Crimes program and the Transnational Organized Crimes programs. The Violent Crimes program was not extremely intel-friendly, but I worked hard with my team to find ways to bring value to these programs and to the Intelligence Community. In January 2025, I was selected for a leadership position at our Headquarters in DC. With so much uncertainty and the rapid changes in the FBI's mission and priorities, I chose not to put my family through a cross-country move for a job that might not exist in DC in the near-future. The first half of 2025 was difficult. Going to work every day brought internal turmoil. I was put in charge of projects that I did not believe were morally and ethically sound. My moral compass was spinning. The projects were not what was being presented to the American people. We were not going after the "worst of the worst" or the most heinous criminals. At one point, I was asked to cross the red line. I refused. I was told I could get fired today or fired in four years—meaning I could get fired today for refusing to violate my oath, or I could get fired in four years when another administration is in office and looking at who participated in these violations. I said "Fire me today." They didn't. Instead, my squad was taken away from me. I was moved to a different position within my office and told that this was not a "personnel action." I received the lightly veiled threat that the "7th floor" (FBI executives in DC) knew about me. I was instructed to keep my head down and do as I was told. In May 2025, I took the deferred resignation. The decision came as a shock to most people, myself included. I wrote this in my LinkedIn post last spring announcing my departure from the FBI, and it is still true today: "If I learned anything in the FBI, it is that yes, you can say no. If something is wrong, unjust, or unethical, you speak up, and sometimes speaking up means saying 'no.' But with a no, there also comes a 'yes.' Yes, I will always uphold my oath. Yes, I will always do the right thing. Yes, I will always ask the important questions." You can connect with Jill on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠⁠website⁠⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Kayla Staph Stays True to Herself

Kayla Staph grew up in a house built on a foundation of loving other others without partiality or discrimination. She comes from a legacy of service, so naturally, she entered into public service when the time came. Kayla started her career as a high school math teacher and coach. She also spent 10 months working with the International Justice Mission combating human trafficking, which opened her eyes to the holistic power of the justice system. In December 2020, Kayla joined the FBI as a special agent. Although she dreamed of investigating Violent Crimes Against Children, the Bureau assigned her to Cyber. Despite barely knowing what an IP address was when she started, Kayla dove into the deep end. She binged on Darknet Diaries and obtained SANS certifications. Before long, she was unmasking cyber criminals, shutting down dark web markets, and stopping terrorists and other national security threats. Kayla loved her mission of protecting the American people from sophisticated threats. That mission changed on January 20, 2025. Kayla watched with dread as the new administration issued sweeping pardons for January 6th defendants—including those convicted of heinous acts of violence against police officers. Days later, she watched as fear spread through the ranks while Acting FBI Director Brian Driscoll fought against efforts to release the names of employees who investigated the Capitol attack. Kayla later detailed that experience in her own words in a guest blog with The Justice Connection. The final straw came after the diversion of FBI resources away from cyber and national security threats to mass deportation efforts. Kayla watched as up to 40% of the FBI's resources in major field offices shifted to civil immigration enforcement. Despite claims the agency was targeting the "worst of the worst," the data showed thousands of operations targeting individuals with no criminal records. The Bureau Kayla loved had fundamentally changed—even removing "Integrity" from its core values at Quantico. She never imagined she would witness such a level of cruelty toward the immigrant population. When asked one day how she responded to sweeping injustice, Kayla wanted to be able to tell her future children a story that would make them proud. Honoring her oath and her own values, Kayla took the second deferred resignation and left the FBI in September 2025. Since leaving, Kayla has been finding her voice and investing in her writing. She also participated in the World Police and Fire Games. Kayla is now focusing on becoming part of the solution by seeking opportunities to leverage her skills as a cyber investigator and crisis negotiator in service of her community and the private sector. You can connect with Kayla on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our ⁠website⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Mike Romano Represents the Best of Us

Mike Romano spent nearly 18 years as an attorney with the Department of Justice (DOJ). He loved his job and thought it would be his forever job. On January 20, 2025, he watched four years of work get wiped away. In January 2021, Mike was a trial attorney in DOJ’s Public Integrity Section. He remembered watching the events of January 6th unfold on the news. He was horrified as he saw an enormous swarm of people descend upon the US Capitol, overwhelming the building and brazenly committing crimes in broad daylight. Rioters attempted to intimidate members of Congress into keeping Donald Trump in office, demanding Congress completely disregard the legal process for certifying an election. Mike had a horrible feeling about what was happening. He worried that people would leave Washington, D.C., without facing consequences for their actions. He was sick at the thought. By February 2021, Mike was on loan to the D.C. US Attorney’s Office for the Capitol Siege Section (CSS). For the next four years, he relived the Capitol attack every day while prosecuting January 6th cases, eventually serving as Deputy Chief beginning in September 2022. Nearly 1,600 defendants were “federally charged with crimes associated with the attack of the US Capitol.” By Inauguration Day 2025, Mike and his colleagues were worried about what would happen next. They didn’t have to wonder long. President Trump signed an executive order pardoning the January 6th rioters—not just the defendants who committed misdemeanors, but also those who committed violent crimes. The pardons were based on what President Trump called a “grave, national injustice.” The real injustice was that the pardons rewarded acts of domestic terrorism intended to undermine the peaceful transfer of power. Mike had the sinking feeling that he had to leave. For almost two months, he lived with a pit in his stomach, wondering daily if he would get fired. He had seen several of his co-workers from CSS terminated. Mike returned to Public Integrity just in time to watch his principal deputy chief and three deputy chiefs resign after refusing to sign the Motion to Dismiss corruption charges against Mayor Eric Adams in the Southern District of New York. Mike knew he could not stay and watch the rule of law completely disregarded. Mike resigned from the DOJ in March 2025 and joined Lichten & Liss-Riordan, P.C., where he represents workers and advocates for their rights. He continues to speak out about the changes happening at DOJ and within the US Government. You can connect with Mike on LinkedIn. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Nikki Rutman Believes in Unicorns

Nikki Rutman thought for sure she'd be a doctor, then she discovered her passion for intelligence. Following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Nikki's path shifted again from her interest in Latin American studies to an internship at the Defense Intelligence Agency when it all clicked. That drive eventually steered her to the FBI Counterterrorism Division (CTD) at Liberty Crossing where 'X' quite literally marked the spot. Nikki brought with her a mission to integrate intelligence within the FBI. She pursued that mission throughout her time at CTD, as an advisor at ODNI, and as a Senior Supervisory Intelligence Analyst for the Northeast Regional Intelligence Group in Boston. After government shutdowns, the pandemic, and the attack on the U.S. Capitol, Nikki saw signposts that the development of the FBI's intelligence program had stalled and begun to backslide. She then transitioned to the private sector, where she founded the intelligence program for a major pharmaceutical company. After being affected by layoffs, Nikki founded Duck Cove Consultants and took a senior role at a security firm. She continues to build and integrate intelligence teams, while coaching and mentoring intelligence analysts transitioning from government into the private sector. Nikki also serves on the board of the FBI Association of Intelligence Analysts, where she urges intelligence professionals to step out of the shadows and share their expertise across industry. Watching 2025's deprecation of the intelligence community has been gut-wrenching for Nikki. She has grown concerned for the continued reliability and availability of annual government threat assessments. Nikki sees this growing void as an opportunity for transitioning government employees, and describes intelligence analysts as today's unicorns—uniquely qualified to meet the challenge. Nikki continues to advocate for consistency and career progression in private sector intelligence, dreaming of a day when more companies add a Chief Intelligence Officer to their boardroom. Until then, she's sending big virtual hugs to all of those transitioning out of government, reminding them they're not alone, and encouraging them to connect with others who have successfully transitioned. You can connect with Nikki on LinkedIn or learn more about her advocacy through Duck Cove Consultants. If you're an FBI Intelligence Analyst or Staff Operations Specialist navigating the transition or an alumnus looking for community, check out the FBI Association of Intelligence Analysts. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Madeline Vellturo Teaches Resilience through Storytelling

Madeline Vellturo spent the last decade working on violence prevention, peacebuilding, and stability. Between April and July, the State Department eliminated the entire Conflict and Stabilization Operations Bureau, where Madeline worked as a stabilization advisor implementing the Global Fragility Act. Now Madeline is continuing her mission through storytelling. Along with former colleagues, she launched their YouTube channel Former Feds & Friends, where they share their expertise in violence prevention while reacting to popular film and media. By looking at conflict prevention through the lens of fiction, Madeline and friends are making complex problems approachable and digestible in an age of weaponized media. In their first season, they took on topics from authoritarianism and atrocities to insurgencies and refugees while running the pop culture gauntlet through DC, Marvel, Star Trek, Disney, and others. In the spirit of Christmas, Philip and Jill joined Madeline for an age-old holiday tradition: watching Die Hard. Together, we discussed the dangers of biases, interagency conflict, and mislabeling violent criminals as terrorists. Madeline isn't spending all of her time on YouTube though. She is staying sharp by consulting on violence prevention and recently published an article analyzing foreign investment risk and opportunity in Guinea. She's also enjoying life as a newlywed and pursuing future research opportunities. Check out the Christmas crossover special Forking Off with Former Feds & Friends. Die Hard - McClane's Big Mistake Die Hard - Hans Gruber's Downfall Connect with Madeline on LinkedIn, and make sure to check out Former Feds & Friends on YouTube. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the Department of State, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Ali Syverson Paints the Unraveling

Ali Syverson never considered working for USAID before she applied for a position in climate and environmental communication, but after spending the first half of her career in corporate social responsibility she knew she wanted to work in the public sector. When Ali moved from the private sector in early 2020, she worried about the stereotypes of “lazy government workers." Instead, she found extremely hard-working colleagues and a fast-paced, caring agency diligently providing humanitarian and development assistance around the world. That all came unraveled in 2025. With USAID decimated, Ali turned to her art and reflected on the near collapse of the foreign aid industry. After the November 2024 elections, Ali and her colleagues knew their days were numbered; they had all read Project 2025. Even with this knowledge, none of them were prepared for how quickly the new administration would dismantle and destroy the agency. Two weeks into the administration, all of USAID’s websites were removed from the internet. By the end of February, most USAID employees received Reduction in Force notices, including Ali who had decided to take the Deferred Resignation (aka, the Fork in in the Road). Ali lived in a heightened state of anxiety for the first two months of 2025, and used her art to commemorate all that had been lost. In the aftermath of the destruction, Ali needed to pause and take a breath. Ali knew she wanted to focus on her art for the rest of the year, but she needed time to release herself from the constant ‘fight or flight’ of the first two months of 2025. After moving out of DC, Ali spent 40 days in Spain resting and resetting. Ali spent every day outside painting, reflecting on all that had been lost, reconnecting with herself, and focusing on how to approach the future. While healing, Ali painted From the American People, a celebration and commemoration of USAID’s sixty years of global humanitarian work. After returning from Spain, Ali sold hundreds of prints to help displaced USAID workers. Ali raised over $15k, which was donated to a mutual aid organization and used to pay rent for at least six returning families. Although Ali’s job as a climate and environmental writer is gone, Ali's voice is still deeply rooted in the relationships she made and programs she helped. Using her art as her platform, Ali has brought the story of USAID’s destruction to people across the country, including a solo exhibition at the Warehouse Arts District in St. Petersburg, Florida. Ali’s art was also featured at the Don't Look Now exhibition in New York City alongside other artists who were censored this year. Ali may have lost her dream job at USAID, but she did not lose her dreams. Ali is using her experiences to rebuild and start anew. She is now taking time to create art every day in her new home studio in Minnesota, while also settling into her new job in the arts as the Communications Director for Minnesota Humanities. Check out Ali's art on her website, and follow her story on Instagram. Learn more about this episode on our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, USAID, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Sarah Ellison Hernandez Sounds the Alarm

Sarah Ellison Hernandez's dream was to become a judge. In 2018, Sarah's dream was realized when she was appointed as an immigration judge. It was the highlight of her career. She remembers excitedly calling her mom with the news. To this day, the memories of her swearing-in ceremony make her emotional because of the weight and importance of her oath. Sarah thought this would be her forever job. Normally, a new presidential administration will cause a few changes to immigration courts, but those are just adjustments in priorities and don't spark legal concern. Beginning in January, Sarah saw what she calls "bread crumbs" of the administration trying to go somewhere with immigration law and policy. Sarah was concerned by the barrage of "spicy" policy memos being released daily. These memos laying the groundwork to fire employees for minor infractions. Sarah became increasingly concerned when she learned the US State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices would no longer include information about persecution of women, individuals with disabilities, or LGBTQ+ individuals. They also removed or reduced coverage of issues such as fair trials, political freedom, corruption, and more. Immigration judges rely heavily on these annual reports to adjudicate asylum claims for protection from persecution or torture. Sarah recalled a time when she relied on the reports to grant a claim for a woman who had escaped an honor killing in India. This change was one of the first moments Sarah saw the administration taking away protections for everyone. Every day in 2025 was something new for Sarah, and things were only getting worse. The DOJ's Executive Office of Immigration Review was instructing immigration judges to pretermit applications. Cases were to be dismissed, and individuals were to be placed in expedited removal. All of these instructions made Sarah squeamish. The breaking point for Sarah was the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case, when the administration lied about the circumstances surrounding Abrego Garcia's deportation in intentional defiance of the law and court order. Sarah's gut was telling her "Danger! Danger! Danger!" Sarah worried about DOJ taking advantage of how immigration courts are set up. With immigration courts being administrative courts and part of the DOJ, the Attorney General can pull a case and issue a ruling which then becomes binding case law. The Board of Immigration Appeals reports to the Attorney General, who reports to the President. The AG can control what immigration courts do, and the AG is currently pushing the bounds of what is constitutionally allowable. Sarah wondered at what point she would be asked or instructed to do something illegal. When the second Deferred Resignation Program offer came around, Sarah knew she had to take it. She could no longer keep her head down and hope for the best. She saw the administration lie and intentionally defy court orders. Sarah refused to be a part of that. Since leaving her dream job, Sarah has opened her own private practice, Ellison Hernandez, PLLC, in Midlothian, Texas, providing consultation services and litigation support for other attorneys and law firms. Sarah is using her 15 years of state, federal, and immigration court experience to give insight and assist other attorneys and law firms in advocating for their clients. She is licensed to practice law in Texas and supports clients nationwide via her virtual platform. Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn. For more information about this episode, visit our ⁠website⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Andrew Kreider is Cutting Through the Noise

Andrew Kreider is a 10th-generation Pennsylvanian and first-generation college graduate. As a high schooler in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, he wanted to help save the planet. So, he set up a recycling center in his parent's newly built mud room and begged his mom to take him to the large recycling center for drop offs on the weekends. Andrew's strong environmental ethic led to a 29-year career at the Environmental Protection Agency, much of which he spent at the EPA's Region 3 Office in Philadelphia. He managed the Brownfields Project for seven years, creating opportunities for economic growth across the Mid-Atlantic region. During his tenure, the program funded grants that provided jobs for communities, such as Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where he got to help the town revitalize and restore Roberto Clemente Park. For the last few years, Andrew served as a Senior Government and Public Affairs Liaison and as Communications Director. Andrew coordinated relationships with US Senate and House offices and was the first point of contact for elected officials seeking assistance from the EPA. In January of 2025, Andrew had no plans to retire. He had served under six administrations and five different presidents. Presidential transitions did not normally affect the day to day operations at the EPA, but the second Trump administration was different. The administration terminated grants and violated union contracts. Employees were sent home on administrative leave, then asked to return to the office, then fired, and then un-fired. EPA employees were told not to answer grant recipients' questions about their grants and funding. With hundreds of organizations relying on grant funding which had been pulled without notice, members of Congress contacted EPA to find out what was going on. Andrew was instructed to stonewall Congress members and tell them that everything was "normal." Andrew refused to lie. While on annual leave in March, Andrew participated in the American Federation of Government Employees' EPA Solidarity Walk in Philadelphia to protest the administration's attacks on the EPA workforce. The Philadelphia Inquirer photographed and interviewed Andrew. The next day the EPA's new Administrator saw the article and Andrew's photograph. The new Administrator singled Andrew out and told top EPA officials that Andrew was the kind of employee who made his job more difficult. Ten days later, Andrew was removed from his position and was no longer able to interact with the public or members of Congress. Andrew had a choice to make. Keep his job or his voice? Andrew chose to keep his voice and to use his freedom of speech to speak out about matters of public concern, such as the destruction of the EPA and civil service jobs. Andrew took the second Deferred Resignation Program offer and left EPA in June. Andrew is remaining hopeful for our country and emphasized, "Hope is not a feeling. It is a choice, and it is a choice that demands action." These days you can find Andrew in West Chester, Pennsylvania, where he is the Director of Communications for Chester County. Connect with him on LinkedIn. For more information about this episode, visit our website. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the EPA, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Molly Kocialski Makes it Make Sense

When Molly Kocialski became the Director of the Rocky Mountain Regional US Patent and Trademark Office, she traded the wealth of 20 years of private practice for the stability and flexibility of federal employment. In September 2025, that balance shifted, and Molly left her job of ten years with the USPTO. At 12:04 am Eastern Time on October 1st, just minutes into what would become the longest government shutdown in history, the USPTO announced the closure of the Rocky Mountain Regional Office and a reduction-in-force targeting approximately 200 employees. Molly was the Rocky Mountain office's second—and last—regional director. A 2019 study determined intellectual property directly supported $7.8 trillion in US GDP and over 44 million American jobs. As an educator and public liaison, Molly made sure the public got its money's worth out of the nation's only fully fee-funded agency. Molly traveled over a dozen times a year throughout her office's nine-state region, meeting with everyone from farmers to semiconductor manufacturers to ensure they knew how the USPTO could help them protect their intellectual property. As an administrator, Molly cared deeply for her people. You can hear this as she poignantly discusses how they were undermined by policy changes since January. From contract reductions to travel bans, it became nearly impossible to do the necessary work of the USPTO. After the February return-to-office mandate, Molly started "snacks and support" because the office's food services had ceased during COVID, and her team's fast pace of virtual meetings with the public didn't leave time for people to go out for lunch. Even after her departure, she spent the early hours of October 1st consoling former employees and colleagues who had abruptly lost their jobs. Molly is continuing her commitment to service in private practice where she's helping inventors navigate the constant series of changes at the USPTO. When she's not busy at the office, Molly can be found lovingly serving bagels at her son's football practice, which you may hear echoes of in this episode. 🏈 In this episode, Molly highlights numerous changes at the USPTO that raise concerns about the agency's ability to continue issuing patents every Tuesday, as it has like clockwork since the 1800s. In that spirit, we've created a small project to monitor whether patents are issued on time. We hope you'll check it out on our website from time-to-time to see how things are going, or learn how to implement it yourself on our GitHub. Connect with Molly on LinkedIn or find her at Holland & Hart. For more information about this episode, ⁠⁠⁠⁠visit our website⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠⁠Ko-fi⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠follow us⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the USPTO, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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Dr. Sarah DeGue Creates a New Path

While finishing her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, Dr. Sarah DeGue thought she would go into research and maybe private practice. Instead, Sarah was called to public service by the appeal of stopping violence before it starts, and she spent the next 17 years doing just that at the CDC's Division of Violence Prevention, Research and Evaluation Branch. For the last 10 years, Sarah also served as a Senior Scientist and Director of CDC’s Dating Matters teen dating violence prevention initiative. Sarah used her expertise to educate communities and employed a public health approach to prevent violence in the United States, including mass violence, ideological violence, and hate crimes. In April 2025, the Department of Health and Human Services eliminated 10,000 employees through Reduction in Force (RIF) and nearly wiped out the CDC's entire Division of Violence Prevention. The United States lost a wealth of knowledge in the public health space. Through the elimination of these jobs and the removal of research from the public domain, over 40 years of research in violence prevention was effectively destroyed—a loss that could take a decade to rebuild. Sarah never thought it possible that she and so many of her colleagues would be forced to leave government, but that's exactly what happened. Still reeling from the RIFs, Sarah worried about what would happen in the violence prevention space through the dramatic loss of resources. True to her calling, Sarah created Violence Prevention Solutions, LLC, as a space for her former colleagues to maintain expertise and rebuild. Violence Prevention Solutions is reinventing and evolving to make resources more stable while no longer relying on the government or non-profit sector. During her last years at the CDC, Sarah also worked with the Department of Homeland Security to develop public health approaches to prevent targeted violence and domestic terrorism, but that work is no longer continuing due to the cuts at the CDC. Sarah worries about the lack of prevention at a critical moment in time, villainization of LGBTQ+ communities, and misinformation surrounding the overstated threat of leftist ideology. In the aftermath of the August 2025 CDC shootings, Sarah was appalled as HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., visited the CDC campus in Atlanta and blamed CDC employees for bringing the shooting upon themselves. After briefly granting CDC employees an opportunity to telework, they were required to return to office and continue working from bullet-riddled offices. Employees were left without mental health services and took it upon themselves to provide their own. Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn or learn more about Violence Prevention Solutions on their website. For more information about this episode, ⁠⁠⁠visit our website⁠⁠⁠. If you enjoy Forking Off with us, consider supporting us on ⁠Ko-fi⁠, and ⁠follow us⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠, or wherever you get your podcasts. ---------- The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals providing them and do not necessarily represent the views of the FBI, the DOJ, the CDC, the United States, or any past or current employers.

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