Disorder

Jason Pack & Evergreen Podcasts

Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day.

We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder.

Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world.

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209 episodes
Updated Yesterday

Episodes209

Newest first

Feb 6, 2024 · 1 hr
Ep23. Is the democratic world morally responsible for allowing Putin's rise? With Evgenia Kara-Murza
In April 2022, undeterred by his previous two poisonings, Russian opposition politician, historian, and free speech advocate Vladimir Kara-Murza made the incredibly courageous decision to re-enter Russia – despite his known opposition to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine two months earlier. What happened next was as tragic as it was predictable. A year later Vladimir was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Last Monday, he disappeared from the Siberian penal colony where he was being held, only much later re-emerging in solitary confinement in a different prison.  In this episode of Disorder, we speak to Evgenia Kara-Murza, a Russian human rights activist and Vladimir’s wife. Evgenia shares about her upbringing in Russia’s Far East, how her husband was imprisoned while working to improve the country, and how what is happening within Russia “hurts” her deeply. She also unpacks how Western leaders bear significant responsibility for the direction taken by the regime of Vladimir Putin – to her mind choosing cowardice and to make money over the safeguarding of human rights. Evgenia finishes the interview talking about how already democratic countries need to stay alert and safeguard their rights and freedoms. To her, the full-scale invasion of Ukraine has shown: democracy is under threat – globally. Twitter: @DisorderShow Subscribe to our Substack here Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Evgenia’s interview for Time here Watch Vladimir’s documentary here A profile on Vladimir by Meduza here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Feb 1, 2024 · 20 min
Bonus Episode: Can the Two Matts Help Us Order the Disorder?
We wanted to let you all in on a well guarded secret: there are actually other podcasts out there that try to Order the Disorder. The team behind the New European magazine produce a podcast called ‘The Two Matts’. We were really inspired by their recent treatment of how Germany is dealing with its neopopulism problem. In this bonus episode of Disorder, we present an excerpt from The Two Matts Jan 26th Show ‘Germany Fighting Fascism’ where Matt and Matt talk about the massive street protests against the AfD and the unique constitutional ways in which Germany can fight the rise of neopopulism. Show Notes Links Listen to the Two Matts here Read Jason Pack’s recent article in The New European about how Bibi is just a run of the mill neopopulist here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 30, 2024 · 59 min
Ep22. What are Iran’s and Egypt’s roles in the evolving Middle East crisis?
This week we examine the regional roles played by Egypt and Iran and discuss British diplomacy towards those countries over the last decade or so. Iran and Egypt offer a fascinating study in contrasts – in terms of their dealings with Israel and Hamas, as well as their posturing relative to the outside world. So who better to help us understand these countries regional role than Alex’s former boss, Sir Geoffrey Adams, who served as British Ambassador both to Iran (2006-9) and to Egypt (2018-21). He served also as Consul General in Jerusalem, the representative to the Palestinian Authority; as Foreign Office Director for the Middle East, and as DG Political – the chief political advisor in the Foreign Office. He is now an honorary lecturer at the Institute for Iranian Studies at the University of St Andrews. Sir Geoffrey relates his experiences of how diplomacy ‘feels’ in Tehran and Cairo and explains why medium powers like Egypt and Iran cannot be dictated to by disunited Western powers. Alex and Jason try to Order the Disorder by discussing Iran’s role as a disordering power, Egypt’s role as a mediating one, and why the medium powers in the region need to step up. Twitter: @DisorderShow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disorderpod/ Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Sir Geoffrey’s FCDO bio is available here His ‘Reflections on the Arab Spring Ten Years On’ can be accessed here For more on the role of Iran as Disorderer please consult Ali Ansari in Ep4 here For more on the regional role of Egypt and why Gaza is existential for Egypt according to Nathan Brown: pls consult in Ep16. The Struggle for Leadership of the Islamic World here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 23, 2024 · 50 min
Ep21. Is the EU a trade giant, but a political dwarf?
In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall open with their thoughts on the EU’s strengths and weaknesses – concluding that the old adage, ‘The EU is an economic colossus and a political pygmy’, is not too far off. To investigate how the EU leverages its trade clout, Alex interviews John Clarke – a British national who worked for more than 30 years as a trade negotiator for the EU. John tells us the tricks of the trade: how the US would steal trade dossiers during negotiations, how the psychology of negotiations works, and how the devil is in the details of free trade agreements. He also describes how the EU’s trade treaties are like the different reciprocal drinking arrangements down at the pub. And of course, John gives Alex an insider’s perspective of ‘what went wrong’ over Brexit. In Ordering the Disorder, Jason and Alex discuss the lack of specific training that US and UK Ambassadors receive about negotiations, how the EU must navigate a fine line between the US and China, and how the rise of Neo-Populism in Europe could spell the end to EU’s trade negotiating prowess. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more visit here Read more about Europe’s Trade Ambitions here For more on the EU’s recent New Zealand trade deal visit here Find more on the tensions at play within EU read "Poland opposes extension of EU trade preferences for Ukraine” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 18, 2024 · 50 min
Bonus Episode: Oh Yeah, Man, why are the Houthis disordering global shipping in the Red Sea?
As the Houthis attack ships in the Red Sea, Arthur Snell and Jason explore: 1) How this horrible crisis is actually an opportunity to create a coalition of orderers; 2) how Iran is not really able to use the Houthis as a proxy; 3) how one interpretation of the Houthi actions is as ‘global disordering’ rather than specifically supporting the Palestinians or a given outcome in Gaza; and 4) how there is an opportunity for a uniquely constructive role for Britain, drawing on its credibility and experience in protecting global shipping especially in a context where China refuses to engage. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links A good intro to Yemeni history from Time’s ‘Made by History’ can be found here. What the US is doing here What the UK is doing by Elisabeth Braw here And what some think the US and UK should be doing here Context around Anti-Semitism in Yemen here Role of Saudi here Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 16, 2024 · 52 min
Ep20. Corruption in Plain Sight
In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall disentangle the related concepts of corruption, illegality, embezzlement, and bribery. They discuss what happens when the laws of a given country allow legalized versions of ‘corruption in plain sight’ to flourish. They’ll look at two different case studies of this phenomenon: Britain and Libya. First, Alex talks to journalist and author Sam Bright about the unique type of ‘pay for access’ corruption that has infiltrated the British establishment. They’ll analyse how wealthy donors can buy meetings with senior officials within the Conservative Party, the implications of the UK’s failed Golden Visa Programme and how it has allowed oligarchs to embed themselves into the UK’s political and economic life, and how the British media’s cosy relationships with cabinet ministers leads to a lack of accountability and transparency. Later in the episode, Jason talks to Husni Bey Husni, Libya’s most famous and successful entrepreneur and businessman. They’ll unpack how subsidies in Libya encourage corruption and pervert incentive structures and international markets. They dwell on the policy implications of these perversions and Husni argues that a libertarian approach is his personal solution to help Order the Disorder. Finally, Jason and Alex discuss how to deter corruption in British politics, how the Libyans have perfected the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy works, how the libertarian approach might (and might not) work, how regulations and cultural norms are needed, and how removing perverse incentive structures is essential as humans will always do whatever benefits them if they can get away with it. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Get Sam Bright’s books Fortress London: The definitive book about Levelling Up and why it matters here And Bullingdon Club Britain: The Ransacking of a Nation here Get Jason's book Libya and The Global Enduring Disorder here (And read about the Miss Manner’s Guide to Rigorously Correct Kleptocracy in Chapter 4) Read more about Kleptocracy here Read more about Husni here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 9, 2024 · 42 min
Ep19. Water Wars – myth or reality?
In this episode, Jason Pack is joined by Arthur Snell, and they speak to Professor Naho Mirumachi. Naho is a specialist on the politics of the environment. She is particularly interested in ‘the wars that were not fought’ over water usage. The trio discuss: what lessons can be learnt from international governance of water usage and other related collective action challenges, will there actually be ‘Water Wars’ in the future, and the challenges of international coordination over the usage of water. Expanding outwards from historical and contemporary examples of water conflict and water sharing in the Nile Basin and Mekong Delta, the hosts ask Naho: given climate change and aridification, will there be enough fresh water to sustain a world population of 10 billion humans for the long term future? In the Ordering the Disorder segment, the trio conclude that major states just tend not to fight over water. Or at least they haven’t as of yet. In fact, water diplomacy has been surprisingly successful over the past few decades and may point to certain lessons concerning how to incentivize optimal compromises in other fields like tax, security, or borders. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Get Naho’s book Water: A Critical Introduction (Wiley) here Read NAHO’s writing at Valuing water: a difficult but crucial step towards greater water justice here Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines, here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jan 2, 2024 · 45 min
Ep18. Can the non-West Order the Disorder? BRICs and the future of global institutions
On the 1st of January 2024, BRICS (an international forum of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa), are welcoming in new members to form BRICS+. In this episode, Alex Hall Hall talks with Anjali Bhatt about what the bloc aims to achieve and what the addition of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Egypt, and the UAE might entail for the organization. They’ll also discuss Argentina’s new disruptive leader, why he might withdraw from BRICS+, and whether the expansion could mean the strengthening of disordering powers (like China). In the Ordering the Disorder segment, Jason and Alex discuss whether the West should take BRICS+ seriously as a global force, what some of their ideas might mean for global economics, and whether the institution of BRICS+ will function more as an ordering force or more as a disordering one. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links No One Knows What BRICS Expansion Means by Anjali Bhatt here And for a broader overview of BRICS, its history, and role in the world, pls consult here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Dec 24, 2023 · 48 min
Ep17. What novel disorder lies ahead in 2024? And how do we bring the holiday spirit into diplomacy?
In our Christmas special, Jason Pack and Alex Hall Hall look back at the first year of the disorder pod, and forecast a bit about the next. They discuss 2024 as a record-breaking year of global elections, answer some listeners’ questions about topics like Central Asia, Gaza, Western hypocrisy, and Palestinian History. They also share a bit about themselves, their families’ holiday menus, and their escape routes. Like, who knew that Alex likes doing puzzles so much and that Jason is a super fan of the Netflix show Fauda. During the Ordering the Disorder Segment, they discuss why we urgently need to get the Christmas spirit back into diplomacy. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links At the start and end of the podcast, we heard some lovely Xmas music from Evoke, a London-based vocal ensemble founded and directed by Victoria Ely. Full credits: Pat-a-pan: traditional Burgundian carol, arranged by David Conte. Jingle Bells: arranged by Audrey Snyder Music performed by Evoke, directed by Victoria Ely Facebook: www.facebook.com/evokemusicuk Youtube: www.youtube.com/@evoke1439 Website: www.evokemusic.org/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Dec 19, 2023 · 47 min
Ep16. The Struggle for Leadership of the Islamic World
In this episode, Alex and Jason investigate if major Islamic nations can exercise global leadership over the Israel-Palestine conflict and propose implementable solutions. They also examine the leverage that Arab Gulf States now have over the West, in general, and Britian, in specific. Jason talks to James M. Dorsey, host of the Turbulent World podcast, to investigate three of the principal countries battling simultaneously for leadership of the Islamic World and to set the direction of ‘moderate’ Islam in the 21st century: the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Indonesia. Zooming in on how these dynamics bear upon the diplomacy surrounding the Gaza conflict, Jason speaks with Nathan Brown; a keen observer of Palestinian politics over the last six decades. They explore how the Palestinian question has traditionally been connected to both struggles over Muslim identity and leadership of the Islamic world. They analyse how the current struggle for Islamic Leadership could actually provide opportunities to forge solutions to the Israel-Gaza conflict. At the end of the show, Jason and Alex return to the question of what it means that the UK has become ever more reliant on money from the Gulf States, and whether that’s taken away any leverage the West may have over these countries in the current conflict. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/struggle-for-global-leadership Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Listen to James M. Dorsey’s podcast, The Turbulent World here Nathan’s first gloomy premonition, “There Might Be No Day After in Gaza here And his “Arab Peace Initiative II: How Arab Leadership Could Design a Peace Plan in Israel and Palestine” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Dec 12, 2023 · 47 min
Ep15. NATO: an alliance for the future? With Kurt Volker
In this week’s episode, Jason and Alex are joined by Kurt Volker, former US Ambassador to NATO and former US’s Special Representative to Ukraine. The wide-ranging discussion tries to unpick NATO’s role in our increasingly disordered world. They also examine what makes NATO successful where the UN and other international organizations falter. They discuss both the 2023 NATO summit in Lithuania and the 2023 Tbilisi International Conference, entitled “Defeating Putinism.” They also look forward to next year’s supremely important NATO summit in Washington with bated breath. That moment not only marks 75 years since NATO’s creation, but it ‘should be’ the moment that NATO offers Ukraine concrete steps to membership. Plus: they look at the late Senator John McCain’s legacy and the US’s role in NATO, as the momentous 2024 election approaches. Alex and Jason Order the Disorder by postulating why Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible – even if the war with Russia is still ongoing. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Previous episode on NATO here Read Kurt Volker’s NATO assessments here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Dec 7, 2023 · 46 min
Bonus Episode: The moral and military dynamics at play in Ukraine and Gaza with David Patrikarakos
In this bonus episode, Jason discusses his mom’s Thanksgiving stuffing recipe as he is joined by our roving correspondent – David Patrikarakos – who missed Turkey Day in London choosing to go to Ukraine and Gaza instead. The pair ‘drone’ on about the use of Iranian Shahid drones in both conflicts, the similarities and differences in the moral and military calculus in Ukraine as opposed to Gaza, and how today’s easy access to technology means traditionally lesser military powers can achieve a modicum of leveling up with their more 1st world opponents. The pair also try to step away from the current news cycle to debunk some historical misconceptions about both conflicts. In the Ordering the Disorder segment, the discuss the role of historical narratives and mythmaking, the West’s need to hold the line in the Ukraine, and why there are no easy solutions for the day after the War in Gaza. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links More on David’s recent trip to Ukraine here And his thoughts on the chances of a regional Middle Eastern escalation here And back to Jason’s solutions, ‘The Road to Middle East Peace Runs Through Doha’ here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Dec 5, 2023 · 46 min
Ep14. Is Disinformation Destroying Democracy?
Disinformation and culture wars are an existential problem for democracies. They foster negative feedback loops: whereby internal divisions inside democracies make us more vulnerable to hostile external actors spewing misinformation, who then exploit those divisions to create more vulnerability to misinformation, culminating in culture wars. These kind of negative feedback loops are another symptom of our era of Global Enduring Disorder. In this week’s episode, Alex and Jason are joined by Laura Thornton, Senior Vice President for democracy at GMF. They discuss how social media algorithms promote disinformation, culture wars, and a rise in contempt for experts. In the Ordering the Disorder section, they’ll talk about the fight for neutral facts and how we could rethink our electoral systems to strengthen our democracies in the UK and US. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/unregulated-cyberspace Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Brian Klaas’ article on Trump and Mark Milley here For more on Laura Thornton’s work visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 28, 2023 · 46 min
Ep13. It’s getting hot in here
Climate change is the perfect example of what happens on a pressing global challenge when no one leads, or even takes responsibility, for a collective action problem – nothing happens, the crisis builds until it becomes seemingly unmanageable/unfixable. Without strong collective action and tough compromises, climate change will get more and more geopolitically intractable making life saving compromises even harder. In this episode, Fiona Harvey explores the importance coordination mechanisms such as COP summits, while Arthur Snell explores the vulnerability of developing island states, the potential next climate great battleground -- the Arctic -- and the role medium powers such as the UK could play in coordinating climate policy. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more from Fiona Harvey, visit here Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind The Lines, here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 23, 2023 · 29 min
Bonus Episode: NATO, Europe, China, and the Israel-Hamas War
In a special Thanksgiving bonus episode of the podcast, Jason is joined by Alessandro Politi, the Director of the NATO Defense College Foundation in Rome. They discuss: Alessandro’s Axis lineage, what role if any NATO has in the Middle East, what Europe’s unique role should be in the Israel-Hamas war (potentially as a counterbalance to America), how global affairs look from Taiwan (where Alessandro just was), and whether the Ukraine-Russia and Israel-Gaza Wars might act as a detonator for larger US and China tensions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Alessandro’s writing on China here More on the NATO Defense College Foundation can be found here Listen to Jason appearing alongside Gershon Baskin discussing hostage negotiations and scenarios for Post-War Gaza here For more on what Europe is proposing in the Middle East, read ‘Germany suggests UN take control in Gaza after Israel-Hamas war ends’ here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 21, 2023 · 46 min
Ep12. Neo-Populism in the US with Tom Malinowski
In this week’s episode, Alex and Jason are joined by former US congressman Tom Malinowski (D-NJ). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Malinowski. In addition to talking about why Tom ziplined to his wedding, they discuss: how to end the war in Ukraine, smear campaigns in American elections, Russian misinformation, why democracy seems to be on the back foot globally, how American and British Neo-populism is connected to the rise of authoritarianism abroad, and why the US and UK experience so many structural inefficiencies when building railroads and highways. Twitter: @DisorderShow Read Tom’s thoughts about how to end the war in Ukraine, here: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/08/18/how-to-end-ukraine-war-00111752 Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more on Tom, visit https://twitter.com/Malinowski Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here Read Jason’s recent writing, ‘The Road to Middle East Peace Runs Through Doha’ here For all who are interested in 'the definitive' reading of how The Global Enduring Disorder (including the divisiveness and ineffectiveness of Neopopulism) caused the war in Gaza listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris’s Making Sense here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 14, 2023 · 50 min
Ep11. The Psychology of Chaos
Diplomacy is a game, and geopolitics is a psychological sport. Though we may root for the ‘democratic good guys’, it is often the disordering ‘autocratic bad guys’ that achieve their aims through effective use of psychological tactics like bluffing and intimidation. In this episode, we meet Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair’s former Chief of Staff, who helped negotiate landmark treaties like the Good Friday Agreement. He tells us how our leaders could use various skills to get to mutually beneficial agreements. We’ll also meet Kenneth Dekleva, a former US diplomat and a Professor of Psychiatry, who will present certain ways we can psychologically outfox disorderers like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Jonathan Powell’s Majestic work on the Negotiations in Northern Ireland is here Get Kenneth Dekleva’s latest books. The Last Violinist here Read a recent article by Kenneth here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 7, 2023 · 39 min
Ep10. How international actors can stabilize the ongoing Israel-Hamas War and prevent a regional escalation
In this episode, Alex Hall Hall talks to Tom Fletcher, the former British Ambassador to Lebanon. Tom and Alex discuss the Palestinian refugee and surrounding Arab states narratives as an entry point to examine whether there’s any risk of the war spreading. They delve deeper into: the rationale for humanitarian de-escalation, the interests and motives of players like Lebanon, Hezbollah and Iran, and what international actors like the UK, the US and the UN need to be doing to stabilize the situation, and how they can be working towards longer term solutions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Tom Fletcher’s writing around this issue at here You can listen to Jason’s take on the regional context on the PREVAIL podcast here You can read current Alex’s writing around this issue here Read, As dark as things seem, the war in Gaza could end up restarting the peace process here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 30, 2023 · 56 min
Ep9. The 2023 Israeli - Hamas war: Could the Qataris help us order the disorder
As the Israeli-Hamas war enters a new phase, Alex and Jason discuss how hard it is to speak publicly and diplomatically about an issue that’s become so partisan and so emotive. Plus: the pair talk about Jason’s idea for interim post-war governance of Gaza involving a Qatari-Saudi-Egyptian-Emirati condominium which would need to be mediated by American and British diplomats. Although only a medium-term solution, Jason believes it could give key regional players a stake in forging peace in the region. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Jason’s Article, “Qatar is the key to peace in postwar Gaza” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 24, 2023 · 48 min
Ep8. Rules for the Ungoverned
Across the world, there are vast swathes of the planet (especially our oceans and atmosphere) that have been left without governance, and into that space have stepped terrorist groups, disordering non-state actors, drug cartels, and polluting and exploitative corporations. So how can global institutions help bring a semblance of order back to these places ? In this episode, Sam Quinones will help us look at how rogue actors have helped to perpetuate disorder across the world – for example, in Mexico where drug cartels turn the absence of governance into proift. Harold A. Trinkunas talks to us about how ungoverned spaces in Venezula and other failed States came to be and what their existence says about our era of disorder. In the conclusion, Alex and Jason ‘Order the Disorder’ propose how communities and interested institution can mitigate the disordering impact of spaces that are without global governance. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Get Harold’s co-authored book, Ungoverned Spaces: Alternatives to state authority in an era of softened sovereignty here For more on Sam Quinones, visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices