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Design Systems WTF

zeroheight

A podcast from zeroheight.

Let’s be honest, design systems are full of choice wtf moments. Michelle and Luke, two of our resident design advocates, are attempting to combat this with a new regular series, where they answer a single question around design system troubles every two weeks.

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20 episodes
fortnightly
Avg 41 min
English

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S2 · E61
August 18 · 44 min
What is the future of agentic design systems?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Agentic is the buzz word of the moment - but what does it actually mean for design systems? Luke and Michelle have a real conversation about what's hype, what's possible, and where they see it all going. Show notes Luke's webinar on automating documentation — the session covering the facts / distilled / authored buckets TJ Pitre / Southleft — doing agentic design system work (also behind FigmaLint with Brad and Ian Frost) Sil Bormüller — founder of Into Design Systems Romina Kavčič — The Design System Guide — the knowledge-graph-to-pattern work Luke describes Design System Documentation Spec (DSDS) — what you're auditing zeroheight docs against Obsidian and Roam Research — knowledge-graph tools mentioned by Michelle The Information Architecture Conference — Michelle's conference, which usually runs a knowledge graphs workshop n8n — Luke's stacked-agents automation instance Claude Code — used in Luke's Figma-MCP-to-code component flow zeroheight MCP — for the docs-as-context part of that flow Paper — mentioned by Mark in chat for better HTML output Pencil — design-as-code tool with .pen files Penpot — the open-source, web-dev-structured design tool Get in touch Luke on Bluesky Michelle on Bluesky
S2 · E60
August 4 · 52 min
How do you get research findings back to the design system team?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. We're all in agreement that UX Research and design systems should work hand in hand. But how do you actually get this to work in practice? How can UX Researchers and design systems folks work best together? What cadence should you be doing things? And should you be included research findings as part of your design system documentation? Show notes Design System Documentation Spec (DSDS) zeroheight MCP zeroheight MCP overview (help docs) Design Systems WTF #39 — Should designers know how to code? zeroheight Design Systems Report Luke on Bluesky Michelle on Bluesky
S2 · E59
July 21 · 47 min
Is Governance Just Theater?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Governance seems to be one of those fancy words that gets thrown around a lot by design system people - but what level of governance is actually worthwhile, and how much of it is theater? Michelle and Luke will dive into governance, what level is good enough, and what bits they think you should scrap. Show notes Brad Frost's governance flowchart — the component approval flow Michelle borrowed and adapted: A Design System Governance Process. Also available as a Figma community file, and his lighter-touch follow-up: Master design system governance with this one weird trick Nathan Curtis on governance and contribution — his writing on contribution models referenced in the episode: Contributions to Design Systems and Team Models for Scaling a Design System Managing Chaos: Digital Governance by Design by Lisa Welchman — Michelle's book recommendation for adding process in a way that isn't "gross", with a historical look at how web governance emerged: Rosenfeld Media Org Design for Design Orgs by Peter Merholz & Kristin Skinner — Luke's companion-piece recommendation on ritual and process for design teams, transferable to design systems: petermerholz.com / O'Reilly Big Vape: The Rise and Fall of Juul — the Netflix documentary on Juul and "how not to do a startup": Netflix
S2 · E58
July 14 · 55 min
What do the Config 2026 announcements mean for design systems?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Config 2026 happened in San Francisco last week, so we got together straight after the announcements to discuss what the announcements mean for design systems folks - from code on the canvas, to agents, skills, and connectors, to Figma Motion. What will these announcements mean for the work we do day to day? Show notes Blog post - What do the Config 2026 announcements mean for design systems?
S2 · E57
July 7 · 40 min
⁠⁠Is driving adoption just a polite way of begging
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Adoption has been the perennial curse of design systems. Always a problem, never quite fixed, and loads of opinions about how to do it. But are we approaching it in the right way? Michelle and Luke talk about the problem with how adoption has been positioned, whether it's a tactical or cultural thing, and whether the goal should sit with design systems teams or the wider org. Show notes Design Systems are Dead. Long Live Design Systems
S2 · E56
June 22 · 43 min
If AI can generate your design system docs, what does that say about how valuable those docs were in the first place?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. The State of AI in Design Systems report came out recently, and it shows that everyone is using AI to create documentation. Is this a good thing? Luke and Seb dive into the question of what good documentation is, whether it's even relevant anymore and what parts we should let AI own, and the parts we need to protect.
S2 · E55
May 26 · 46 min
Is Figma holding design systems back?
Is Figma holding design systems back? Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. It's the month before Config! So we're diving into a spicy topic - is Figma helping or hindering design systems? Is the future of design systems a world where Figma doesn't exist? Or are design tools like Figma essential for the work we do in design systems day to day? Show notes Figma Weave (acquisition / launch) Figma Make Kits announcement The State of AI in Design Systems (zeroheight) Design Systems Report 2025 (zeroheight) UX Tools Design Tools Survey Converge (zeroheight) Luke Murphy on Bluesky Michelle Chin on Bluesky
S2 · E54
May 12 · 37 min
How do you make developers to care about your design system?
Episode 54 - How do you make developers to care about your design system? Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Getting developers interested in the design system still seems to be a challenge for a lot of design system teams in 2026. So how do you get them interested in what you're doing? Do you need to bribe them with snacks? Luke and Michelle discuss ways to get engineers on board, why it's essential, and common pitfalls with design systems sans developers. Show notes None this week
S2 · E53
April 28 · 40 min
Is a design system mandate worth fighting for?
Episode #53 - Is a design system mandate worth fighting for? Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. The Design System Report this year suggested that the number one thing design system teams with low adoption rates were missing was a company mandate. However, is that really the thing you should be fighting for? Or is your time better spent focusing on something else? Luke and Michelle will dive into what actually drives good adoption, and whether a mandate is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. Show notes Design System Report 2026 Design System Report webinar on Adoption Design System Report webinar on Resourcing The Question Redwoods Community Zeroheight Case Studies
S2 · E52
March 31 · 40 min
Does your design system need a PM?
Episode 52 - Does your design system need a PM? Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Time for the hot takes - do design systems need product management? Or is it something that just gets in the way and stops work happening? Show notes Design System Report 2026 Amy Hupe
S2 · E51
March 17 · 34 min
What do you actually test?
Episode 51 - What do you actually test? Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Once you've done a first pass on anything in your design system, how do you validate it? Do you create complicated automated tests to ensure absolute consistency? Or do you even put it in front of real people to make sure it works? Show notes Rocket Surgery Made Easy by Steve Krug AXE MCP server Tetralogical - a great accessibility agency
S2 · E50
March 3 · 47 min
Do MCPs care more about patterns or components?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Now we're in the business of creating context for AI (ew), what is actually important when we're creating documentation that will be used by machines AND humans? Are detailed component guidelines important? Are the foundations essential to get right? Or can we rely on top-level patterns and vague guidance? Show notes How LLMs use MCPs to read your design system and how to write prompts that work with that Product Deep Dive Webinar: MCP, vibe coding, and your design system PDF of A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander et al. Google Prompting Essentials course on Coursera Marketing Against the Grain podcast AI and Design Systems course with Brad Frost, Ian Frost and TJ Pitre TJ Pitre on LinkedIn Dom Nguyen on LinkedIn Sil Bormüller on LinkedIn
S2 · E49
February 17 · 41 min
Are we delighting enough in our design systems?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Design systems kill creativity, right? We've heard that said so many times. But are we actually taking the time to inject joy into the system itself? Not only considering it as a part of the process for what we include in the system, but also in how we do documentation, release notes, and general communication around the design system? Or controversially... is it even important? Show notes Luke’s article on delighting in design systems Societe Generale release notes article Aaron Walter’s Heirarchy of User Needs The socks component in Gitlab’s Pyjamas design system
S2 · E48
February 3 · 32 min
Do our design systems give new joiners anxiety?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Set the scene - you've joined a new company as a product designer or engineer, and you're confronted with a massive system, with custom naming and opaque decisions. Queue anxiety. So how do we make our design systems easy to understand, and make them a strength for onboarding new joiners? Show notes Amy’s talk about jargon zh’s AI features
S2 · E47
January 20 · 39 min
What will happen in design systems in 2026?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. It's time to peer into the crystal ball and predict what's coming up for design systems this year and further out. Will AI take all our jobs? Are design systems becoming a thing of the past? Will we finally kill all creativity? Or are we still plodding along to general adoption? Show notes No show notes this episode!
S2 · E46
January 6 · 37 min
What's with the emotional baggage with design systems?
Design system folks seem to be prone to burnout, arguments, and generally feeling underappreciated within their organizations. What makes design systems folks so prone to being loaded with additional weight? We discuss why this happens, as well as some strategies to overcome it. Show Notes Amy Hupe – "Burn baby burnout" (based on her Converge Manchester 2023 talk): https://amyhupe.co.uk/articles/burn-baby-burnout/ Lauren LoPrete – "Design Systems Burnout" talk at Clarity 2021: https://www.clarityconf.com/session/design-systems-burnout Robin Rendle – "Design Systems Burnout" newsletter: https://robinrendle.com/the-cascade/012-design-systems-burnout/ Brad Frost - “Master design systems governance with this one weird trick: bradfrost.com/blog/post/master-design-system-governance-with-this-one-weird-trick/
S2 · E45
Dec 23, 2025 · 32 min
Are we reducing complexity with design systems??
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Time to get spicy... One of the big promises of the hype of design systems was that it would reduce organizational and product complexity by providing efficient, replicable ways of doing things. Now that we've bedded in, its time to ask - how much do design systems actually reduce complexity? Do they just reorganize and make complexity more palatable? Show notes Product Deep Dive on Systematizing your Documentation Michelle’s article on structuring your design systems
S2 · E44
Dec 9, 2025 · 46 min
Episode 44 - Should we care about consistency?
Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. A bit of a deep topic this week – how important is consistency as a concept to be aiming for with design systems? Obviously, it's one of our design systems' selling points, but in a world where we're moving more and more towards browserless, how important is component consistency, or can we see a place where foundational consistency is all we need? Show notes A List Apart - Design Dialects: Breaking the rules, not the system Vinted - Greenhouse
S2 · E1
Nov 25, 2025 · 39 min
Are we finally at the point of contextual documentation?
Season 2 Episode 1 Design Systems WTF is the fortnightly podcast where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with Q&A from the live audience. We took a few months off and y'all went and changed everything... We dive into the wonderful world of contextual design systems. Do MCPs finally offer what we need to make our design systems serve information up contextually? Are there major things we need to refactor? Or is it all smoke and mirrors? Show notes: Knowledge graphs article from Chase Luke’s talk on Contextual Documentation Converge videos DS Live with TJ Pitre TJ Pitre on LinkedIn
S1 · E40
Jun 2, 2025 · 24 min
Can you actually measure the ROI of a component?
Selling the value of your design system to folks who don't necessarily understand it is a difficult and thankless task. But are we trying to sell in the right things? Is it possible to put the value of our design system against the bottom line, and how far down the stack can we go? Can we actually put a dollar sign against a single component?

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