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Continuous Agitation

Jay Fram and Bill Sawalich

Continuous Agitation is two working photographers with decades of experience still struggling to figure it out. Jay Fram and Bill Sawalich talk about what’s working, what isn’t, and what the hell is happening to the photo business. 

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  • 7 episodes
  • weekly
  • Avg 41 min
  • English

Episodes 7

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  • S1 · E9
    Tuesday · 41 min

    Squeezed

    This week on Continuous Agitation: why everybody's rate is going up except yours. Client budgets are down, while the cost of everything that goes into photography (equipment, crew, gigabytes, snacks) is up up up. I’m not complaining that their rates have gone up; I’m complaining that mine haven’t. But the important thing is that I’m still complaining. Also, why is everybody happy but me? Find us: Yell at us or with us on Substack: https://continuousagitation.substack.com Our big dumb faces on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ContinuousAgitation Write to us: continuousagitation@gmail.com Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Follow Jay: @jayfram / jayfram.com Follow Bill: @sawalich / sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E8
    September 24 · 49 min

    Video or Photo: Which is Harder?

    Video Much Much Harder, Say Longtime Still Photographers – The Onion This is an actual Onion headline. Or rather, it would be, if anyone ever listened to me. Today we take a look at the differences between getting hired to make photographs vs. films. (I like to say film because it makes me sound more artistic.) I love movies and film and, conceptually, I love to see my pictures move. So why do I dread video jobs, or worse, video + photo jobs? Because it’s difficult to do well, that’s why. And why does video pay worse for more work? Fight me. "I think everything is hard if you care about it. And I think our world is too full of people who discount the expertise that other people bring to things." – Someone smart Find us: Yell at us or with us on Substack: https://continuousagitation.substack.com Our big dumb faces on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ContinuousAgitation Write to us: continuousagitation@gmail.com Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Follow Jay: @jayfram / jayfram.com Follow Bill: @sawalich / sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E5
    June 25 · 48 min

    A Good Client Story

    How do you handle a good client who becomes difficult? We discuss slow payment, unexpected image use, and how good communication skills are your most valuable asset. Jay describes an annual report/image library shoot for a publicly traded company where 30-day terms weren’t met; after 57 days and a new rush request for more images, he considers withholding delivery, worries about seeming unreasonable, and sends an email to say I’m mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it anymore if that’s ok? Separately, Jay sees his interior photo used in a New York Times app ad despite being licensed only for unpaid marketing, debating whether to invoice, let it slide, or message the client tactfully and adjust future pricing, while weighing relationship value, leverage, and practical licensing. "Not needing work is the ultimate negotiating position." Find us: Follow Jay on Instagram: @jayfram Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads: @sawalich Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Jay's photography: jayfram.com Bill's photography: sawalich.com Write to us: jay@jayfram.com / bill@sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E4
    June 18 · 27 min

    Unlimited Sausage

    This one’s a Part Two. If you haven’t listened to the last episode – “Let Them Eat Cake” – go do that first. We pick up where we left off on the unlimited (sa)usage debate that started last episode, this time getting into the practical reality of how we bid jobs, when we mention usage/licensing, and when we don’t. And why the idealistic advice to "hold the line on licensing" doesn't work the way it used to. In the second half Bill introduces a possible future: retainers. Shooting multiple times a year for a client for less than you might have charged before, but making more than you would for a one-off shoot. Win sorta win? Bill also uses the C-word and Jay doesn’t like it. "You give the same bid three times and you don't get it, and you say to yourself: I don't think this costs that anymore." Links: @asksternrep — Andrea Stern’s (generally) great advice resource on Instagram ASMP — American Society of Media Photographers Mike Kelly, architecture photographer Wonderful Machine — wonderfulmachine.com (commonly referenced resource for licensing and bidding) Find us: Follow Jay on Instagram: @jayfram Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads: @sawalich Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Jay's photography: jayfram.com Bill's photography: sawalich.com Write to us: jay@jayfram.com / bill@sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E3
    June 4 · 42 min

    Let Them Eat Cake

    Is usage licensing dead? Not exactly. But the business it was built for doesn't really exist anymore. Print is all but gone. Social media now accounts for 80% (!) of ad spend in the US. Clients want the C word [rhymes with shmontent] by the dump truck load and there are ten times as many people willing to shoot it. @asksternrep, a prominent photo rep with an excellent advice page, recently posted a follower’s question on her Instagram feed and the comment section got real spicy. Her advice to photographers losing bids over usage: be the best photographer you can be, and clients will pay for limited licensing. Will they though? We try to unpack what actually happened to the commercial photography market, why work-for-hire is the real threat, and why "hold the line on licensing" is good advice for 5% of photographers all of the time, a few more photographers some of the time, but never all photographers all of the time. "Telling photographers to do better is an outdated answer to a structural shift in the industry." Links: @asksternrep — Andrea Stern’s (generally) great advice resource on Instagram ASMP — American Society of Media Photographers Find us: Follow Jay on Instagram: @jayfram Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads: @sawalich Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Jay's photography: jayfram.com Bill's photography: sawalich.com Write to us: jay@jayfram.com / bill@sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E2
    May 28 · 41 min

    AI Moonrise Hernandez

    The Danziger Gallery is showing a large-format AI-generated color version of Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico. Prompt: make a realistic color version of Ansel Adams' iconic Moonrise over Hernandez. Reaction: gross. But also, this is the AI version of Richard Prince shenanigans. Which pulls us into Prince's Untitled Cowboys — Marlboro ads torn from magazines, rephotographed, sold for millions — and one real cowboy photographer describing what it feels like to watch someone copy your life's work and sell it for $3 million. From there: do we use AI, and what for? Jay uses it as a marketing coach. Bill mostly avoids it for not exactly ethical reasons. Harder question: if a client can get a convincing image from a prompt in an hour, why should they call us? Bill says it’s a business case: if the people who need appealing to – the audience – are moved by interacting with real images and film, and are actively turned off by AI facsimile, then AI ain’t gonna cut it. "Knowing something real happened matters to me in the context of viewing photographs." Links: Ansel Adams Moonrise, Hernandez, NM – the real one The AI version of Ansel’s Moonrise, along with a new statement released by the Ansel Adams Trust Giuseppe Lo Sciavo at Danziger Gallery Richard Prince “Untitled Cowboy” Sam Abell’s iconic cowboy photograph Bill’s Norm Clasen profile Bill’s Lynn Goldsmith Copyright Story Cal Newport Author of Deep Work; Jay heard him on the Offline podcast talking about AI and the atrophy of difficulty Follow Jay on Instagram: @jayfram Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads: @sawalich Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Jay's photography: jayfram.com Bill’s photography: sawalich.com Write to us: jay@jayfram.com / bill@sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

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  • S1 · E1
    May 22 · 40 min

    Why are we doing this?

    Continuous Agitation — Episode 1: Why Are We Doing This? This first episode is an origin story — why two working photographers decided to start recording their phone calls and sharing them with strangers. We’ve been having these conversations for years and figured other photographers might get something out of it. But also: Jay can't find much content that reflects the business reality he’s actually living in. Not tutorials. Not influencers teaching us how to establish a personal vision. Just plain talk about commercial photography from people who are in it, confounded by it, and not pretending otherwise. We touch on AI image generation — and the fact that it’s not photography. We were both relieved to hear Rob Haggart and Heather Morton say publicly that they wish it never happened. Not that that solves anything. We talk about what has actually changed in the business, and the disorienting experience of knowing what a job used to be worth, having no idea what it's worth now, and wondering if the confusion is a character flaw or just an accurate read of the situation. "What's the value of an image with a lifespan of literally hours?" That's kind of the whole show. But, you know, like not that bad. Links to stuff we mention: Chris Buck — Photographer Chris Buck’s Lena Dunham Blog Post A Photo Editor — Rob Haggart's long-running blog about the photography business Heather Morton (@hmphotoprof) on Instagram Rob and Heather on “The Grain” Podcast about “Photography vs. AI” Adam Fuss Man Ray — Artist and photographer; inventor of the Rayograph, the original camera-free photographic image Theo Welling — Photographer, mutual friend; "see if you can figure out what's going on." Find us: Follow Jay on Instagram: @jayfram Follow Bill on Instagram and Threads: @sawalich Read Bill's newsletter, Art + Math: artandmath.substack.com Jay's photography: jayfram.com Bill’s photography: sawalich.com Write to us: jay@jayfram.com / bill@sawalich.com Rate and review Continuous Agitation on Apple Podcasts — it actually helps.

    • Transcript
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