Civic Punks

Derek Alton

This is my experiment in creating interesting podcasts about public sector innovation.

Disclaimer: All opinions on this channel are my own opinions or the personal opinions of those who I interview.

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#63
September 4 · 53 min
You Might Get Fired - A Conversation with Iain Montgomery
What does it actually take to innovate inside institutions that aren’t always designed for experimentation? Iain Montgomery has become one of the voices I keep coming back to when I’m thinking about innovation, government, and what it means to genuinely challenge the status quo. After following and referencing his work for a while, I finally got to meet him at FWD50—and we sat down for this conversation. We talk about what brought Iain into innovation work, what keeps him grounded and inspired, and some of the ways we get innovation very right…and very wrong. We also dig into his work on Challenger Cities: looking at cities that are willing to think differently, challenge assumptions, and ask better questions about what actually helps a place flourish. And, in classic Iain fashion, there are a few lines in here that will rattle around in your head for the next week. Including, of course, why doing this work properly might occasionally mean you get fired, and that's a good thing. If you care about making government better, experimenting with new ways of working, or just thinking differently about how cities and institutions change, there’s a lot in this one. Make sure to check out his podcast on Challenger Cities: https://challengercities.substack.com/podcast
#62
August 28 · 36 min
Why Is Government So Bad at Working With Startups with Kateryna Frolova
I recorded this conversation with Kateryna Frolova, Head of the Global Government Technology Centre Kyiv, on my first morning in Ukraine, after a night of Russian bombing. We were both running on a little less sleep than we would have liked. But the conversation we had gets at a problem that reaches far beyond Ukraine. Governments everywhere love talking about supporting startups, entrepreneurs and small and medium-sized businesses. Actually working with them to solve public problems is much harder. Procurement gets in the way. Government and startups operate at different speeds. Smaller companies struggle to navigate the system. Governments struggle to identify, test and adopt new solutions. Everyone agrees collaboration would be useful, yet making it happen remains remarkably difficult. This is exactly the problem Kateryna and her team are working on in Kyiv. We talk about how government can build better relationships with entrepreneurs, how to create the conditions for collaboration rather than simply talking about it, and why this matters increasingly as countries think about technological and economic sovereignty. Kateryna’s own story is also part of a much bigger Ukrainian story. Like many young Ukrainians I met, she had built a promising international career before returning home out of a sense of responsibility to her country. She went on to work inside the Ukrainian government before moving into her current role helping government innovate from the edge of the system. There is a lot here for governments well beyond Ukraine. If we can figure out how governments can genuinely work with startups, SMEs and entrepreneurs around shared public problems, we may unlock an enormous source of innovation that today remains largely untapped. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
#61
August 20 · 37 min
Ukraine’s AI Playbook: Sovereignty, Agents and the Future of Government
Ukraine has become one of the most interesting governments in the world to watch when it comes to AI. In this episode of Civic Punks, I sit down with Roman Kyslyi, Chief AI Officer at Ukraine’s Ministry of Digital Transformation, to dig into where Ukraine is going next. We get deep into AI sovereignty, a topic Roman has been thinking about for years. What does it actually mean for a country to be sovereign in the age of AI? And how does that equation change as we move from chatbots toward AI agents that can actually take action on our behalf? We also unpack what Ukraine is building with Diia.AI, why Ukraine has emerged as a frontrunner in agentic government, and Roman’s bigger vision for how AI could reshape the relationship between citizens and the state. It’s a fascinating conversation about sovereignty, infrastructure, agents, and what the next generation of digital government might actually look like. Roman also runs a Ukrainian podcast all about AI. Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/@aihouse_ukraine If you enjoy the conversation, share it with someone who should hear it, and make sure to like, follow, and subscribe for more Civic Punks.
#60
August 13 · 17 min
Why Kyiv Works: A Debrief with Denys Nazarenko
Last week, I shared my conversation with Victoria Itskovych, CIO for the City of Kyiv, about how Kyiv has continued to build and adapt under some pretty extraordinary circumstances. Six Weeks Under Siege Denys Nazarenko helped make that conversation happen. He’s a senior advisor to Victoria, and after we finished the interview, Denys and I wandered down to a nearby park to debrief. What followed was a more informal conversation about some of the things sitting underneath Kyiv’s story: the relationship between the city and Ukraine’s national government, what good collaboration between different levels of government can actually look like, and why Kyiv has been able to make some of this work. I’d recommend listening to the conversation with Victoria first. But if that one leaves you wanting to dig a little deeper, think of this as the after-hours addendum. What changes when national and local governments see each other as partners rather than obstacles?
#59
August 7 · 10 min
Six Weeks Under Siege: Kyiv’s CIO on Keeping the City Running
I started the European leg of this journey in Ukraine—a war zone, which is kind of a mad thing to do. I went to Ukraine because I think they are the most interesting case of government transformation in the world right now. Case in point, my first conversation. Victoria Iskovich, CIO and Director of IT for the City of Kyiv, takes us inside the first six weeks of Russia’s invasion. She shares how her team lived and worked from the city’s data centre, moved critical infrastructure in the middle of the night to protect it from being bombed, and repurposed technology they had already built to support the war effort. The story reads like an action film. The reality, of course, is far more brutal. This is a short conversation about crisis, courage, technology—and the people behind the scenes keeping a city running when almost everything around them is falling apart. What can public servants everywhere learn from the way Victoria and her team responded? Leg 2 has been sponsored by The Kindred Agency. A people-centred Canadian company focusing on building ethical agentic AI for good.
#58
July 28 · 33 min
Backing Civic Punks Before It Had a Name — Olivia Dorey on Kindred, Ambassadorship & Building a Movement
Olivia Dorey has been supporting Civic Punks since before Civic Punks had a name. So it feels pretty special to finally sit down with her — and to announce The Kindred Agency as our first sponsor. In this conversation, we get into Olivia’s story: how she became a Civic Punk, why she started The Kindred Agency, and what she has learned about building a company around work you actually care about. Then we dig into something we’ve been figuring out together: the Civic Punks Ambassador Program. We wanted to create a sponsorship model that felt a little different. Something built around shared values, trust and a belief that this community of people trying to make government better is worth investing in. My hope is that Kindred is the first of many organizations to come along for the ride. Have a listen — and if you’re part of an organization that thinks this kind of work should exist, I’d love to hear from you. You can reach me at derekalton@civicpunks.com. To learn more about the great work of The Kindred Agency and to test some of their new agentic AI's go to their website at: https://thekindredagency.com/
#57
June 14 · 14 min
Chika Masuda on Japan’s Digital Agency, Christian Bason, and Finding Your Way Into Government
Tokyo was already special. Getting to spend time with Chika Masuda made it even better. Chika is Head of Intelligence Research at Japan’s Digital Agency, and one of those rare public servants who seems to connect people, ideas, and institutions with real care. In this conversation, we talk about her journey into government, what she has learned from working inside the system, and why relationships matter so much in this field. We also get into the influence of Christian Bason — someone who has shaped both of our thinking in different ways — and what it means to build a life around public service, curiosity, and making government a little more human.
#56
May 28 · 37 min
The Local Government Everyone Is Asking About
What does it look like when a city council takes both AI and community engagement seriously — without making either feel like a corporate strategy exercise? In this episode, I talk with Jared Griffith, a senior leader at Hutt City Council in Greater Wellington, New Zealand. This conversation follows a chat Jared and I had when I was in Wellington a few months ago, where I became really intrigued by two things Hutt City Council is working on. First, they’ve launched a new community engagement strategy grounded much more deeply in local Indigenous ways of knowing and doing. We talk about what that changes, how it shifts the relationship between council and community, and what it means to engage people with more care and depth. Second, we get into AI. Hutt City Council has become something of a reference point for other municipalities trying to adopt AI well. And, unsurprisingly, the secret is not really the technology. It is people. This is a conversation about trust, culture, public service, and what it takes to change how local government works in practice. And yes, I push Jared a bit too.
#55
May 26 · 7 min
Europe Tour Begins: Kyiv, AI, and the Future of Government
Leg two of the Civic Punks World Tour is here. I’m heading to Europe — with stops in Kyiv, London, Berlin, Tallinn, Helsinki, Copenhagen, and Tbilisi — to look for the people, places, and ideas shaping the future of government. The heart of the trip is Kyiv. Ukraine feels like one of the most important places in the world to understand democracy, resilience, digital government, trust, and public service under pressure. I’m also heading to the Creative Bureaucracy Festival in Berlin and the UN Public Service Forum in Tbilisi. And this episode includes a very lovely Civic Punks first: the project’s first sponsor, Olivia Dorey and The Grace Project, which is exploring how agentic AI can support carers, government, and better public services. Who should I meet while I’m on the road? And what should I be paying attention to?
#54
May 14 · 34 min
AI, Sovereignty, and the Future of Public Service
Governments around the world are trying to make sense of AI in real time. Some are experimenting, some are regulating, some are cautiously poking it with a stick from a safe distance. In this episode, our global government innovation panel compares what we are seeing across different countries and systems. We talk about how AI is changing public sector innovation, why digital sovereignty is becoming such a big deal, and what all of this means for the people who actually make government work. Because the future of government is not just about better tools. It is also about power, trust, capability, and the role of public service itself. Panelists Angela Galeano Futuro Publico Demos Helsinki Brian Whittaker Humans of the Public Service Luke Cavanaugh Interweave Tony Blair Institute Links and things mentioned Innovate US - Is providing AI Training for the government Diella - Albania's AI Minister, who is actually an AI Latam-GPT — a Latin American initiative to develop a language model built in the region Visio - Government of France's sovereign alternative to Microsoft Teams Making AI Work for the Public: An ALT Perspective by New America Taking the Pulse of Public Benefits AI: Top 3 Reflections from PBIF’s Summer Open Call by Center for Civic Futures The Phoenix Project by Gene Kim, George Spafford, and Kevin Behr DOGE done better by Geoff Mulgan G7 GovAI Grand Challenge
#53
May 12 · 6 min
Where Civic Punks Goes From Here
Civic Punks is starting to come into focus. In this short solo update, I’m back at Queen’s Park — where I filmed the original launch video — to share where the project is going next. Over the last few months, I’ve been travelling across East Asia and the Pacific, meeting people, recording conversations, going to events, and trying to understand what the future of government looks like from the ground. Somewhere along the way, the shape of Civic Punks started to get clearer. The core is still the same: exploring the future of government through the people trying to make it better. But the strategy is getting sharper. The podcast will go deeper with people and their stories. YouTube will focus on ideas, tensions, and field observations. Instagram will become more of a notebook from the road. The newsletter will connect the dots. And LinkedIn will become more of a conversation space. The goal is simple: more signal, less noise — and more content that feels human, useful, and actually worth spending time with. I’ve linked the draft content strategy in the show notes. It is still very much a working draft, and I’d love your thoughts. What would you actually listen to? Who should Civic Punks be paying attention to? Where does this community need more signal? Draft strategy: https://www.notion.so/Content-Strategy-v-3-35295f99cead8016a37ae0e41f53e5a3 Weekly Synthesis: https://civicpunks.substack.com/ Behind the Scenes: https://www.instagram.com/civicpunks/ Big Ideas: https://www.youtube.com/@CivicPunks Website: https://civicpunks.com/
#52
May 8 · 41 min
Reclaiming Imagination in Government with Sir Geoff Mulgan
In this episode of the Future Government series, I sit down with Sir Geoff Mulgan, one of the people whose work has deeply shaped the field of public sector innovation — and, personally, someone I remember studying back in grad school. So this was a bit of a special one. We talk about why governments need to get much better at using intelligence, how history can help us make sense of the moment we are living through, and why imagination may be one of the most underrated capacities in public life. A big theme running through the conversation is the need to reclaim imagination — not as fantasy or naïve optimism, but as a practical tool for building better futures. More positive futures. Maybe even, dare we say it, slightly utopian ones. Geoff also shares advice for the next generation of public servants and reflects on what it will take to build governments that are more capable, thoughtful, and alive to possibility. For anyone working to make government better, this is a conversation worth spending time with.
#51
May 1 · 38 min
What If Government Loved You? with Thea Snow
Thea Snow is one of those people I love talking to because I always leave our conversation feeling a little more grounded and wise. At the time of this recording, Thea was Director at the Centre for Public Impact for Australia and Aotearoa New Zealand. She has since stepped back from that role and is taking time to enjoy life, reflect, and explore what comes next. In this conversation, we cover a lot of ground: local empowerment, the changing role of public servants, how expertise is shifting, what AI might mean for government and citizen interaction, and how we prepare public institutions for what is coming. But the question that stayed with me most was one Thea posed: what would it look like if government loved you? It's a provocative question. We don't ever think of government this way, but what if we did? This is part of a series I am doing where I sit down with some of the people who inspire me the most in the field of public sector innovation to get their thoughts on the future of government.
#50
April 29 · 37 min
Lines, Loops, Vibes: Suhit Anantula on How Government Finds Its Rhythm
What if one of the problems in government is that we keep using the wrong pattern for the work in front of us? In this conversation, I sit down with Suhit Anantula to explore his framework of Lines, Loops, and Vibes. Vibes are about instinct, intuition, and sensing what is emerging. Loops are about iteration, experimentation, feedback, and learning by doing. Lines are about structure, process, and scaling what has become clear. The fun part is applying this to government. When should public servants trust a vibe? When does a problem need a loop? And when is it finally ready to become a line? We also wander into reflexes, innovation, public service learning, Peter Drucker, and the strange joy of just jamming on ideas with someone who is thinking deeply about how organizations actually work. Curious to hear what you think: where is government stuck in a line when it probably needs a loop?
#49
April 27 · 12 min
When Innovation Stops Changing Things
Public sector innovation was supposed to help government change. But what happens when innovation becomes part of the system it was meant to challenge? In this conversation, I sit down with Nicholas Gruen, a longtime voice in public sector innovation, to talk about why the field may have lost some of its edge. We get into perpetual pilots, reform work that never quite lands, and the strange way innovation can become another layer of process rather than a force for real change. We also talk about one of Nicholas’s bigger ideas: the gap between the systems world and the life-world. Systems help us see patterns, scale, and structure. But when they drift too far from real human experience, things start to go sideways. This one is a thoughtful, slightly uncomfortable conversation about change, institutions, and what it takes to keep reform connected to real life.
#48
April 24 · 38 min
What Comes After Human-Centred Design?
Roger Watson has been one of the leading voices shaping the practice of design in government in Australia — as a practitioner, teacher, author, and long-time champion of better public services. I sat down with Roger in Sydney to talk about how he found his way into this work, the personal experiences that shaped his interest in government design, and why he believes the field needs to evolve. We also dig into the idea of Design Thinking 3 — what comes next after earlier waves of design practice — and some of the ideas behind his upcoming book, including the conditions needed to create truly innovative spaces: labs, temples, podiums, and academies. It is a thoughtful conversation about design, government, innovation, and the spaces we need to build if we want public institutions to think and act differently.
#47
April 23 · 38 min
Michael Baskin on AI, Tools, and Doing Your Best Work
There’s a lot of pressure right now to be more efficient, more effective, and somehow keep up with a steady stream of new tools—especially AI. In this conversation, I sit down with Michael Baskin, Chief Innovation Officer for Montgomery County, to talk about how he actually approaches that challenge in his work and life. This isn’t just a conversation about tools. It’s about process, judgment, and the underlying philosophy Michael uses to get the best out of himself without losing what makes his work human. He moves fast, and there’s a lot of wisdom packed in here for anyone trying to work smarter, stay grounded, and figure out what real effectiveness looks like right now.
#46
April 21 · 17 min
Shannon Salter on Designing Government Around Life Events
Derek sits down with Shannon Salter, Head of the Public Service for the Government of British Columbia, to explore BC’s vision for redesigning government around life events instead of programs and departments. They talk about what that shift really means, how you make it real inside a large public system, and what it takes to work across silos and levels of government.
#45
April 17 · 12 min
I participate therefore I am
This is part of a series I’m calling Rent Free. The idea is simple. I ask people about a concept that’s living rent-free in their head. Something that’s shaping how they see the world and how they show up in their work. This time, I sat down with my good friend, and someone who consistently inspires me, Almero Oosthuizen. For Almero, what is living rent-free is the quote: “I participate, therefore I am.” Originally from Mugendi Kanampiu M’RITHAA, it’s a reframe on the African philosophy of ubuntu. We like to think we are our values. Our beliefs. The things we say we care about. But if you look at it honestly…you are what you participate in. Where you spend your time. What you contribute to. How you show up. So the real question becomes: Am I actually participating in the things I say matter? Or just talking about them?
#44
April 13 · 7 min
Government is doing this wrong
I think we’re still designing policy for a world that doesn’t exist anymore. Last week I was in Canberra for the OpenFisca and Policy Innovation Conference, right after Government Innovation Week in Melbourne. Two very different conferences… and honestly, it felt like they were talking about two completely different realities. At OpenFisca, the conversation went deeper. Less about “what’s new” More about “why isn’t this working?” This video is my attempt to make sense of that. In it, I explore: Why policy isn’t really a product anymore (it’s something you’re constantly managing) How tools like Rules as Code, digital twins, and synthetic data are starting to change the game Why government might be losing its own institutional memory and the question I can’t shake: as AI becomes more central… what do we choose to keep human? It feels like we’re in an in-between moment. The old way isn’t holding up. The new way isn’t fully formed. And we’re kind of stitching it together as we go. Curious how this is showing up where you are.

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