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Been There Got Out Podcast

Chris & Lisa

Chris and Lisa of BeenThereGotOut.com both survived toxic marriages with narcissistic partners and the legal and co-parenting nightmares that go hand-in-hand with all of that.If you are struggling in a high-conflict relationship, divorce, custody battle, or co-parenting hell which requires PERSONALIZED attention, let us HOLD YOUR HAND along the way, while providing EXPERT, STRATEGIC guidance based on one's years of success (representing myself in court!), coupled with the other's High Conflict Divorce Coach certification.Our podcast features interviews with lawyers, therapists, co-parenting coordinators, guardians ad litem, and other subject matter experts, as well as other content, all with one goal in mind: Let us teach you how to HELP YOURSELF!

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  • 25 episodes
  • a few times a week
  • Avg 36 min
  • English
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  • S2026 · E381
    September 3 · 55 min

    Why Men Don't Talk About Divorce Pain with Garth Haslem

    "Force demands fairness. Power prepares for reality. Force chases. Power disengages when engagement is useless." That's the framework Manalizing founder Garth Haslem uses to explain why so many marriages, divorces, and co-parenting relationships fall apart — and it's strikingly close to what we teach in our own Strategic Communication Course. In this raw, unscripted conversation, Lisa sits down with Garth to unpack the difference between force and power in relationships, why men are conditioned from childhood to stay silent about what's actually hurting them, and what happens when decades of suppressed emotion finally come out "in the wrong place, with the wrong people, at the wrong time." If you've ever wondered why your ex communicates the way they do, why the men in your life won't open up, or why your own attempts to "just talk it out" keep backfiring, this episode reframes the whole conversation. WHAT YOU'LL LEARN: ✅ The difference between force and power — and why force always backfires in high-conflict situations ✅ Why men are taught from childhood that vulnerability is dangerous, and what that costs them (and their families) ✅ The "trash compactor" pattern: how suppressed emotions eventually explode at the wrong time ✅ What "divorce brain" is, how to recognize it in yourself or your ex, and why it's a form of force ✅ How internalized criticism turns into self-hatred — and sometimes into abusive behavior ✅ Why some men become the "ATM Dad" and how that dynamic damages marriages from the inside ✅ A real, vulnerable account of parental alienation from a father's perspective ✅ The structure of a Manalizing meeting: the declaration, the "one word" check-in, being heard, and being seen ✅ Concrete examples of force vs. power language you can apply to your own co-parenting communication ✅ Why "happy wife, happy life" can quietly become a form of coercive control when taken too far ✅ How isolation compounds a crisis — and why having even one person who will listen changes everything ABOUT GARTH HASLEM: Garth Haslem is the founder of Manalizing, a national peer support community that meets twice monthly by Zoom to give men a structured, confidential space to be heard, seen, and known — often for the first time in their adult lives. Garth built Manalizing out of his own hard-won experience: two marriages, a divorce he navigated with no one to turn to, and a relationship with one of his three daughters that remains estranged today. He speaks openly about his own struggles with meaninglessness, force, and control, and has adapted Dr. David Hawkins' "Power vs. Force" framework into a practical, everyday tool for men navigating conflict, divorce, and fatherhood. Garth is not a therapist — he is something rarer in this space: a man willing to go first.

  • S2026 · E380
    August 31 · 24 min

    Why Rage Is a Sane Response to Legal Abuse, Not a Character Flaw

    "I would wake up every single morning, there'd be a moment when I'd forget who I was, and then I would just be furious. And it wasn't even at my ex — it was at the system allowing this to go on and on and on." If that sounds familiar, this conversation is for you. Lisa opens this episode admitting that rage is one of the single most common emotions she hears about from people living with legal abuse and parental alienation. So she brought in Jen Gallagher, a limited license psychologist in Michigan with over 20 years as a therapist, who now specializes in helping women work through rage using a neurobiological, brain-based approach. This isn't a conversation about anger management. It's a conversation about why your rage might be the sanest possible response to years of injustice — and what to actually do with it so it doesn't run your life, or your health, from the inside. Jen explains the real difference between everyday anger and deep, cumulative rage, why rage is a normal, protective emotion your brain is designed to feel (not a character flaw), and why the physical toll of suppressing it for years can show up as chronic illness, "sideways" explosions, or relentless self-criticism. If you've ever asked "when is this going to stop hurting," this episode gives you a real answer. What You'll Learn: ✅ The actual difference between anger and rage, and why rage runs so much deeper ✅ Why rage is one of the brain's built-in protective systems, not a personality flaw ✅ How to tell the difference between rage (a feeling) and violence (a behavior) ✅ Why men and women are conditioned to express rage so differently ✅ Why there's no "timeline" for how long you're allowed to feel furious ✅ Why chronic legal abuse produces a completely sane, expected rage response ✅ The physical cost of suppressing rage for years, including chronic illness ✅ How trauma can disconnect you from rage you don't even know you're carrying ✅ The first step to reclaiming your rage: simply naming it out loud ✅ A simple body-awareness practice to interrupt a rage spiral in real time ✅ What to look for in a therapist if rage is the issue you need help with About Jen Gallagher: Jen Gallagher is a limited license psychologist (a Michigan-licensed therapist with a master's degree) with more than 20 years of clinical experience. Her practice takes a neurobiological, brain-based approach to emotional healing, and she primarily works with women in midlife who are learning to build a healthier relationship with their rage — turning it into a source of power and energy instead of shame. She describes rage as one of the most misunderstood emotions, and she's made it her mission to change that.

  • S2026 · E379
    August 27 · 42 min

    The Step-Parent's Side of Parental Alienation: a Therapist/Former GAL Speaks Out

    "One hundred percent of what was reported back to me was untrue." That's what it's like to be the step-parent inside a parental alienation campaign — standing in the middle of a custody war that started long before you arrived. In this conversation, licensed clinical social worker, former guardian ad litem, and 40-year psychotherapist Jessica Anne Pressler shares something we almost never hear on this channel: what parental alienation looks like from the step-parent's chair. Jessica spent 15 years inside the court system conducting custody evaluations, and she also lived through alienation herself as the new partner a mother turned her daughter against. Jessica's story starts with a genuinely happy first year, a proposal, and then, almost overnight, a child who wouldn't come to the house anymore. We talk through the emails that arrived hours after her wedding, comparing her to a "black widow." Jessica calls this "borrowed scenarios" — language dressed up as a child's own feelings that could never have come from an eight- or nine-year-old. We also dig into what happens to the "healthy" partner who watches someone they love get pulled away by fear of losing a child. Jessica is honest about her husband's catch-22 — caught between the family he built with her and a daughter conditioned to see any closeness with Jessica as betrayal of her mother. And she's just as honest about her own fear of abandonment, what she calls her own "traitor within," also the title of her forthcoming novel. What You'll Learn: ✅ Why children work so hard to please the alienating parent, and how "conditional love" and fear of loss drive that behavior ✅ How to recognize "borrowed scenarios" — adult language coming out of a child's mouth ✅ Why an ex refusing to allow a child into therapy is itself a red flag worth naming ✅ What "hatred by association" looks like when it spreads to a target parent's friends, hobbies, and new family ✅ How grandparents and extended family can become "flying monkeys," and why it happens ✅ Warning signs new partners often miss before marrying into a high-conflict family ✅ Why the divorce becoming legally final can trigger an ex rather than settle things down ✅ What a target parent's household needs to be for a child: calm, safe, and free of commentary about the other parent ✅ Why BTGO tells clients not to question their kids about time spent with the other parent ✅ Where a target parent's own grief and anger belong — and why it's never in front of the kids About Jessica Anne Pressler: Jessica Anne Pressler is a licensed clinical social worker with nearly 40 years of experience as a psychotherapist. For 15 years, she conducted custody and visitation evaluations within the family court system, giving her a rare, dual vantage point on parental alienation — as a professional evaluator and, later, as a step-parent who lived through it in her own marriage. She is the author of the forthcoming debut novel "The Traitor Within," following a woman named Cassandra through a cycle of toxic relationships and the internal "traitor" that keeps her abandoning herself first. Jessica has appeared on Been There Got Out before, and her story is also referenced in our book "When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You."

  • S2026 · E378
    August 24 · 39 min

    Is Your Ex Gaslighting Your Kids? A Therapist Explains What It Really Looks Like

    "That is gaslighting — because the parent isn't thinking about what the child is going through. They're just making the child question their own reality." That's how licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Pinkal Panchal describes one of the most common — and most invisible — things that happens to kids caught in a high-conflict divorce or custody battle. Not the dramatic stuff. The quiet, everyday moments: a comment here, a video call there, a "your mom isn't as good as you think" dropped into an otherwise normal afternoon. In this conversation, Pinkal joins Lisa Johnson to unpack exactly what gaslighting looks like when it's aimed at kids instead of a partner — and why so many well-meaning parents do it without ever meaning to. What You'll Learn ✅ How to recognize when a child is being fed conflicting realities between two homes ✅ Why kids describe the divorce experience as "heartbroken, dream-broken, and brain-broken" ✅ The physical and psychological symptoms Pinkal sees most often in alienated kids, including hypersomnia and eating disorders ✅ A real case example of a parent using a child to monitor an ex's dating life — and why it backfires ✅ Why permissive, rule-free homes often (temporarily) win a child's loyalty ✅ A concrete, repeatable strategy for reconnecting with a disregulated or pulling-away child ✅ Why giving your child real agency is more powerful than defending yourself ✅ The three questions Pinkal asks before recommending couples therapy after domestic violence ✅ Why Pinkal believes family therapy should happen before the legal battle, not after About Pinkal Panchal Pinkal Panchal is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based in Newport Beach, California, where she runs a private practice serving clients from age two through seventy-five and older. Pinkal specializes in couples and family work, and she also facilitates a free, anonymous domestic violence support group where survivors can log in, share, and be heard without ever turning on a camera or revealing their name. Coming from a community where mental health carries deep stigma, Pinkal has made it her mission to bring therapy and honest conversation to people who might otherwise never ask for help. In her therapy room, she regularly works with children caught in the middle of custody battles and with the parents trying to rebuild those relationships.

  • S2026 · E377
    August 20 · 27 min

    Fake Voicemail Apps Are Fabricating Court Evidence - Here's How to Protect Yourself

    "Our Family Wizard is the single source of truth." That's how attorney and Guardian ad Litem Elle Barr describes the platform she helps educate judges and family law professionals on nationwide - and it's a line worth sitting with if you're currently fighting to be believed by a court, an evaluator, or your own attorney. In this episode, Elle joins Lisa and Chris to pull back the curtain on OurFamilyWizard (OFW), one of the most commonly court-ordered co-parenting apps in the country. If you've ever wondered why a judge would order you onto a parenting app, whether it's really different from just texting your ex, or how its AI actually rewrites hostile messages before they're sent, this conversation answers all of it - straight from someone who sits on both sides of the process. Elle starts by dismantling the biggest misconception she hears from parents: that a court-ordered parenting app exists to punish them. In reality, it exists to protect the child by reducing conflict and creating accountability for both parents - not just the one who "needed" it. Every action on OurFamilyWizard is time-stamped and preserved, which is why Elle calls it a single source of truth: messages can't be quietly edited or deleted, and that permanence protects both people, not just whoever's usually blamed for starting conflict. That protection matters more given what Elle describes next: "deceitful software," a growing category of apps that let someone fabricate an entire fake text or voicemail thread and present it as real evidence. She shares a personal story involving her own children pranking her with a spoofed phone call to show just how convincing these fakes can look. The heart of the episode is Tone Meter AI, OurFamilyWizard's built-in artificial intelligence that flags an inflammatory message in real time and offers a calmer rewrite before it's sent. Elle walks through a live example - a father about to write "don't be late as usual" - and shows exactly how the AI intercepts it. If you've worked on gray writing or the FRAC model with BTGO, this will feel like validation from an independent source: a leading family-law technology platform arrived at nearly identical communication principles. Elle also addresses privacy directly. She explains why OFW added a blurred video background to its Calls feature, protecting a survivor's location during virtual visitation, and is direct about children's limited accounts: they see the shared calendar and journal, but not private messages between their parents. Most useful for BTGO's community: Elle confirms OurFamilyWizard offers fee waivers not only for financial hardship, but for any survivor with a protection order, restraining order, or civil restraint - a resource many don't know exists. The conversation closes with two scenarios many of you are living right now: what to do when your ex claims they "can't figure out" the app, and how to make a persuasive, low-conflict case for using a parenting app before you have a court order requiring it. 📋 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN: ✅ Understand why family courts increasingly order parenting apps, and what "best interest of the child" really means in that decision ✅ See exactly how OurFamilyWizard's Tone Meter AI rewrites a hostile message into one that is calm, clear, and child-focused ✅ Learn why a properly used parenting app functions as a tamper-proof "single source of truth" for every co-parenting communication ✅ Discover how fake text-message and voicemail apps are being used to fabricate evidence, and how to protect yourself from them ✅ Find out how to apply for OurFamilyWizard's domestic violence fee waiver if cost or safety has kept you from using a parenting app ✅ Learn what the blurred video background feature protects, and why it matters for survivor privacy during virtual visitation ✅ Understand exactly what children can and cannot see when they have their own limited OurFamilyWizard account ✅ Hear how a Guardian ad Litem responds when a parent claims they "can't figure out" the app ✅ See how the shared calendar and Parenting Schedule Modification tool can eliminate entire categories of scheduling conflict 👤 ABOUT ELLE BARR: Elle Barr is a family law attorney based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with nearly 23 years in practice. As a court-appointed Guardian ad Litem, she has represented thousands of children and made best-interest recommendations that have shaped custody outcomes for families across her jurisdiction. Alongside her legal practice, Elle serves as OurFamilyWizard's Judicial Education Coordinator, training judges, family law attorneys, mental health professionals, parenting coordinators, divorce coaches, and certified financial planners on how co-parenting technology can reduce conflict and improve outcomes for families going through divorce or separation.

  • S2026 · E376
    August 17 · 46 min

    How to Stop Obsessive Thinking About Your Ex: A Somatic Psychologist Explains

    "Obsessive thinking is repetitive self-stimulation. It has movement in it — thought is a movement, it's an energy form." That's how somatic psychologist Annie Brook describes the loop so many of us get stuck in when life feels unsafe and unsolvable — the 3am replaying of a text from your ex, the imagined arguments you have in the shower, the same worry circling through your mind for the hundredth time. If you're navigating high-conflict divorce, co-parenting with someone who won't cooperate, or the daily uncertainty of parental alienation, you already know this loop intimately. Chris Barry welcomes back somatic psychologist Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, for her second appearance on Been There Got Out, this time diving deep into why our nervous systems get hijacked by obsessive thinking, and exactly what to do about it. Annie doesn't just explain the neuroscience, though she gets wonderfully geeky about the amygdala and hippocampus along the way. She teaches real, physical, in-the-moment tools you can use the next time your brain won't let go: an exercise to find the "center" of your head, a boundary practice she calls the hula hoop, a detective exercise for noticing exactly how you ruminate, and her signature "Blink Blink" technique for turning a stuck, painful thought back into free energy. Chris connects each tool directly back to what our community faces: court prep, hostile co-parenting calls, and the exhausting mental replay that comes with legal abuse. What You'll Learn: ✅ Why obsessive thinking is your brain's attempt to "motor" its way out of an unsolvable stress, not a personal failing ✅ How a simple axis exercise helps you find the calm, centered part of your brain instead of the anxious, analytical forehead ✅ How to build an invisible "hula hoop" boundary that protects your energy without shutting people out ✅ How to put on a "detective hat" and identify whether your rumination shows up as pictures, words, or sounds ✅ Why talking to your own rumination like a friend who needs help can surface what you actually need ✅ How one client turned a court-ordered call with her abusive ex into a "bingo card" that made the calls bearable ✅ Why staying "on the surfboard" instead of getting pulled into the emotional undertow protects your nervous system ✅ How the "Blink Blink" technique dynamites a stuck thought and turns it back into usable energy ✅ How the amygdala and hippocampus build a lifelong "file cabinet" of safety patterns, and why that matters for your triggers ✅ Why nervous system regulation isn't a luxury for our community, it's a strategic necessity for court and co-parenting About Annie Brook: Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, is a somatic psychologist with over four decades of experience helping people repair and regulate their nervous systems. She is the former Director of Body Psychotherapy for the Master's program in Somatic Psychology at Naropa University, and co-founded the clinic Colorado Therapies, where she has worked with families, children, gang-involved youth, and survivors of abuse. Annie holds a Ph.D. in Perinatal and Somatic Psychology and blends neuroscience, movement, and body-based practices to help clients recover from trauma and chronic stress. She teaches ongoing classes including Healing Complex Trauma and Healing Birth Trauma, trains therapists in somatic methods, and is expanding her practice to include equine therapy. This is Annie's second appearance on Been There Got Out, and Chris and Lisa consider her one of the community's most requested guests.

  • S2026 · E375
    August 10 · 28 min

    Does Parental Alienation Backfire in Court? A Beverly Hills Divorce Attorney Explains

    “The court doesn’t care who was mean.” That’s not a throwaway line, according to Beverly Hills divorce attorney Nikoo Berenji, it’s one of the biggest blind spots she sees parents walk into family court with, and it can quietly sabotage an otherwise strong custody case. In this conversation, Nikoo, Senior Counsel at Berenji & Associates and a 20-year veteran of high-net-worth, high-conflict divorce litigation, breaks down exactly what judges weigh when deciding custody, and what doesn’t move the needle at all, no matter how unfair that feels. She walks through a real case where a mother spent enormous time and money building a case around her ex’s past absence as a parent, only to watch it backfire because the court only cares about what’s best for the child going forward, not who was the “better” spouse in the past. She also shares a case where a court took the rare step of giving a father six months of primary custody to reset a relationship that had been damaged by alienating behavior; proof that judges are paying closer attention to alienation than ever before. Whether you’re early in your custody case, deep into a years-long battle, or trying to figure out why your strategy isn’t working, this episode reframes what “winning” in family court actually requires. WHAT YOU’LL LEARN: ✅ Why proving your ex was a bad spouse rarely helps your custody case — and can actively hurt it ✅ The one best-interest factor that quietly decides more cases than people realize ✅ A real case where alienating behavior led a judge to remove children from their primary caretaker for six months ✅ How false or exaggerated domestic violence claims get used as a “silver bullet strategy” — and why it can backfire ✅ Whether courts are getting smarter about recognizing parental alienation tactics ✅ Why interrogating your kids after time with the other parent can be used against you ✅ The boundaries you need around discussing legal matters when kids are in the home ✅ Why a detailed, specific parenting plan prevents more conflict than any argument ever will ✅ The “therapy clause” that can eliminate one of the most common sources of post-divorce conflict ✅ Signs your child is struggling, even if they seem like they’re handling everything fine ✅ A simple daily practice Nikoo recommends to every client, no matter how skeptical they are at first ABOUT NIKOO BERENJI: Nikoo Berenji is Senior Counsel at Berenji & Associates Divorce Lawyers, a Beverly Hills family law firm marking more than two decades of practice focused on high-net-worth, high-conflict divorce and custody cases. Before family law, Nikoo built her career in corporate law and government criminal practice, graduating from UCLA and earning a full scholarship to Berkeley Law, where she also served as a federal judicial extern to the Honorable Judge S. James Otero before starting out as an associate at Latham & Watkins LLP, one of the largest law firms in the world. That combination of corporate, criminal, and family law experience shapes how she approaches the emotionally charged, financially complex cases her firm handles, many of which involve narcissistic dynamics between spouses who are highly successful in their professional lives. Nikoo is also an adjunct professor at both UCLA School of Law and USC Gould School of Law, and she and her team work with clients across the country and around the world, with a particularly heavy concentration of cases in Southern California.

  • S2026 · E374
    August 6 · 36 min

    A Family Court Insider Reveals the Custody Mistakes That Quietly Sink Good Parents

    She spent five years on the inside of the family court system as a Connecticut Family Relations Counselor — the person who meets with both parents, talks to the kids, and writes the recommendation the judge leans on. In this candid conversation, Sue Gabriele explains the quiet, well-intentioned mistakes that sink good parents before they ever reach a courtroom, and what to do instead. If you have ever walked in armed with a binder of everything your ex has ever done wrong, this episode will change how you prepare. Sue shares why "suitcases full of papers" backfire, why a clean, color-coded timeline beats a stack of journals, and how to give a busy professional the facts they can actually use in the limited time they have with you. She also pulls back the curtain on something most parents never hear said out loud: the system is built to push the "weaker link" into giving up, because a settlement means no one has to write the long report. Knowing that going in changes everything about how you hold your ground. Whether you are still deciding to leave, deep in a custody dispute, or trying to co-parent with someone impossible, Sue's insider perspective helps you stop fighting the battles that don't matter and start building the case that does. As we say at Been There Got Out, courts often don't care about the abuse you suffered the way you wish they would — they care about the present, the child, and the proof. This conversation shows you how to meet them there without losing yourself. A quick, important caveat: Sue's experience is grounded in Connecticut, and family law varies widely by state. Treat her insights as a lens for understanding how court professionals think, not as legal advice for your specific case. ABOUT BEEN THERE GOT OUT Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists who help good people navigate the family court system and protect their relationships with their children. We fill the gap between what attorneys are trained to do and what therapists understand. Get our books, "Been There Got Out" and "When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You," and learn about our courses and 1:1 coaching at BeenThereGotOut.com. #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #FamilyCourt #CoParenting #CustodyEvaluation #NarcissisticAbuse #ParentalAlienation #DivorceAdvice #BeenThereGotOut

  • S2026 · E373
    August 3 · 35 min

    Why Does My Toxic Ex Get Worse After the Divorce Is Final?

    Most people believe that once the divorce is final, the chaos finally ends. With a high-conflict, narcissistic, or unpredictable co-parent, the opposite is often true. As they lose day-to-day control, they learn to control you from afar—through the kids, the money, and the legal system. In this honest, practical conversation, UK coach and psychotherapist Louize Yafai joins Lisa Johnson to explain why the abuse can ramp up after separation, and exactly what to do about it. Louize knows this from the inside. After a 16-year marriage, she survived severe financial and post-separation abuse, came close to homelessness twice, and relied on food banks while raising three daughters and litigating on her own. Then she turned her pain into power, trained as a counsellor and psychotherapist, and now helps parents navigate the same storm with their dignity intact. Together they unpack the “Friday Night Bomb”—the email or filing timed to ruin your weekend—and why peace doesn’t come from your ex changing. It comes from learning to trust yourself to handle whatever arrives. You’ll learn how to stop reacting, when not to respond at all, how to protect your legal fees and your nervous system, and why an impartial guide matters when friends and family keep telling you to “just move on.” ✅ WHAT YOU’LL LEARN ✅ Why a high-conflict ex often gets worse, not better, after the divorce is final ✅ What the “Friday Night Bomb” is—and how to stop it from ruining your time with the kids ✅ How to build a “Teflon suit” and respond from a calm, grounded place ✅ The in-the-moment “buffer” to use the second a hostile message lands ✅ Why you should not respond to every lie—and what judges actually care about ✅ How reactivity quietly drives up your legal fees ✅ Why being “coached” by AI can backfire badly in a high-conflict case ✅ How to know it’s time for support—without waiting until burnout ABOUT LOUIZE YAFAI Louize Yafai is a divorce, separation, and co-parenting coach with a degree in counselling and psychotherapy. Drawing on her own experience of financial and post-separation abuse—and years of helping men and women face unpredictable, narcissistic co-parents—she specializes in emotional regulation, boundaries, and the practical strategies that help people move through high-conflict divorce with strength and self-respect. She is a contributing author to the #1 best seller “Emotional Alchemy” and to a recent anthology curated with Olympic medalist Fatima Whitbread MBE on overcoming adversity.

  • S2026 · E372
    July 30 · 46 min

    Why 50/50 Custody Can Backfire Badly in a High-Conflict Divorce

    Everyone walks into family court assuming the “fair” answer is to split the kids right down the middle. Fifty-fifty. Equal time, equal say, problem solved. But what if that instinct toward fairness is quietly setting your children up for years of stress — and setting you up to lose the very argument you should be winning? In this conversation, Lisa sits down with veteran matrimonial attorney Gus Dimopoulos, who has spent 25 years handling complex, high-conflict divorce and custody cases in Westchester County and New York City. After his article “The Equality Trap” struck a nerve, we asked him to walk us through what he’s really seeing in courtrooms — and why the growing assumption that 50/50 is automatically best can be, in his words, disastrous in practice. Gus explains something most parents never learn until it’s too late: in New York, there is no legal presumption of shared custody. The law requires a best-interest analysis, and the question of a shared-custody presumption has come before the state legislature for 25 years without ever reaching a vote. Yet judges juggling hundreds of cases are under enormous pressure to settle custody early, and “just split it” starts to feel like the path of least resistance. Understanding that gap — between what the law actually says and what tends to happen in a crowded courtroom — changes how you prepare. We get into the practical reality nobody talks about: fifty-fifty demands a level of coordination, communication, and mutual respect that high-conflict co-parents simply don’t have. When you add modern kids’ schedules — sports, tutoring, therapy, club teams — an equal-time arrangement can turn every week into a battlefield. Gus also walks through parallel parenting and “spheres of influence” as a more realistic alternative for parents who can’t cooperate: you take this domain, I take that one, and we keep out of each other’s way so the kids aren’t caught in the crossfire. He shares his most important courtroom lesson, too: judges reward the parent who shows up as a calm, prepared problem-solver with a pragmatic list of facts, not the parent who comes in with drama and accusations. If something doesn’t work for your kids, you have to be able to show why — with logistics, work policies, train schedules, and evidence — rather than simply insisting the other parent is awful. We also talk about why putting real specifics into your parenting plan beats vague promises to “be cordial,” and why a child should never have to decide which parent to run to after scoring the game-winning goal. This one is essential listening whether you’re negotiating a parenting plan, heading into a custody hearing, or trying to understand why the “fair” outcome keeps making your life harder. As always, this isn’t legal advice for your specific case — it’s strategic education to help you walk in better prepared. 👉 Ready for a strategy that fits your situation? Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we’ll help you identify your priorities: https://beentheregotout.com ABOUT BEEN THERE GOT OUT: Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists. They help good parents navigate the gap between what attorneys aren’t trained to do and what therapists don’t address — with practical, trauma-informed, actionable guidance for protecting yourself and your kids. #5050Custody #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #FamilyCourt #CoParenting #ParallelParenting #DivorceAdvice #ChildCustody

  • S2026 · E371
    July 27 · 23 min

    A DV Nonprofit CEO on What Family Court Gets Wrong About Abuse Survivors

    If you have already left an abusive relationship and you're now staring down the family court system, this conversation was made for you. Lisa Johnson of Been There Got Out sits down with Liz Ortenberger, CEO of SafeNest, the largest domestic and sexual violence nonprofit in Las Vegas, Nevada, for a frank discussion about what actually works once you're in front of a judge. Here's the hard truth Liz names out loud: the court will never understand your abuser the way you do. Judges are busy, they're drawn to whoever tells the cleanest, most linear story, and many of them quietly assume that a mother fighting for custody may be exaggerating the abuse to gain an advantage. That isn't fair - but it is the room you're walking into, and pretending otherwise helps no one. So what do you do with that? Liz lays out a survivor's playbook that lines up almost perfectly with what we coach every day. Get it into the record that your children witnessed the abuse, because a child witnessing abuse has the same chemical brain reaction as a child being abused directly. Build your own clear, linear timeline before you ever walk into the courtroom. Think like a chess player rather than a boxer - anticipate your ex's next several moves and head them off, instead of just reacting. And document, document, document: photograph injuries, keep a private journal, tell a trusted friend, and email evidence to yourself so it carries a date stamp the other side can't explain away. She also shares a statistic that every survivor deserves to know: if you were strangled or choked during the relationship, your risk of a later lethal outcome rises dramatically - and that is something you can get documented medically and entered into the court record. Throughout, Liz zooms out to the bigger picture too: the history of the movement, why our systems haven't moved the numbers in 30 years, and what it would take to actually protect the next generation. Practical, honest, and genuinely useful whether you're just starting your case or years deep into it. A SURVIVOR'S COURT PLAYBOOK - How to get a child's exposure to abuse onto the official record - and why it counts - Building the clean, linear timeline judges actually respond to - Anticipating your ex's legal moves like a chess player instead of reacting like a boxer - The custody bias many survivors run into - and how to get ahead of it - A simple, free way to date-stamp your evidence so it can't be dismissed as fabricated - The strangulation statistic that belongs in your medical records and your court file RESOURCES MENTIONED: SafeNest (Las Vegas): https://www.safenest.org Reach Liz's team: info@safenest.org Look up your ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences) score - and take it for your child, too If you are in immediate danger, contact your local emergency services. In the U.S., the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available 24/7 at 1-800-799-7233 (SAFE). This conversation is for education and support; it is not legal or mental-health advice. When you're ready, we're here to help you build a strategy that fits your situation. #DomesticViolence #FamilyCourt #CustodyBattle #CoParenting #NarcissisticAbuse #CoerciveControl #DVAwareness #SurvivorSupport

  • S2026 · E370
    July 23 · 46 min

    Nilaja Ford: The Voice of the Child in New Jersey Custody

    New Jersey judges are now hearing from children directly in custody matters, and parents whose exes have spent years working on those children are alarmed. Nilaja Ford's counter is that the children were already in the middle of it. The revision changes who gets to hear them. Nilaja Ford co-founded Ford Brown Law with her partner Donnett Brown. Both were prosecutors for the state of New Jersey, and both specialize in domestic violence alongside family law. Nilaja handled domestic violence contempt matters on the prosecution side before moving into an exclusively matrimonial, custody, and domestic violence practice, and she has been conducting child interviews since before the statute was revised to formalize them. She and her partner also run a free legal-services clinic at a women's resource center in Newark. Everything she describes here is New Jersey practice, though she notes much of it tracks other states moving the same way. The conversation opens on hearsay, because it is where parents lose ground without understanding why. A letter from a therapist, a teacher, or a supportive friend generally cannot stand on its own at a hearing; the person who wrote it has to be available to be questioned. Nilaja walks through the exceptions she leans on, particularly business records like school attendance, and why expert reports come with the expectation that the expert can be asked how they reached their conclusions. She then explains what the revision, nicknamed children in charge, actually does. New Jersey's best-interest standard and its 14 factors are unchanged. What is clarified is the mechanism: a recorded interview with the judge, under a protective order rather than something a parent can post, with questions submitted by both sides. Age affects how much weight a child's preference carries, not whether they are heard. And the question she puts on her own list is not who do you want to live with, it is what the ideal arrangement would look like, in specifics, because the specifics are what reveal what is really going on. Nilaja and Lisa then work through the situations BTGO's clients live in. A parent asking for sole custody, and her first question, which is always why. Reporting abuse, and why the investigating body has to be the state agency rather than you. Cayden's Law, and what these changes are trying to prevent. A teenager who has already aligned with one parent, and Nilaja's uncomfortable point that acts and omissions count, that timing counts, and that a case arriving late arrives with a history already built. She also covers legal decision-making, stonewalling, and the 24-hour clause she has had written into orders so one parent cannot run out the clock on the other. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn What hearsay is, and why the letter from your child's therapist may not come in Which records do come in, and why school attendance is used so often What New Jersey's children-in-charge revision actually changed, and what it did not How a child interview is conducted, who submits the questions, and who can hear it How age affects the weight of a child's preference rather than their eligibility Why "I want sole custody" gets answered with a question, and what she is listening for Why the state agency, not you, has to be the one investigating an abuse allegation Acts, omissions, and timing: why a case brought late arrives with a history attached ⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 Nilaja's background: prosecutor, then family and domestic violence law 3:00 Hearsay, and why the therapist's letter will not come in 7:00 What the children-in-charge revision actually changed 9:00 How a child interview works, and who writes the questions 11:00 Age, weight, and New Jersey's fourteen best-interest factors 17:00 "I want sole custody." Her first question is why 19:00 Reporting abuse: the agency that investigates, and why it cannot be you 25:00 Teenagers who have already been turned against a parent 31:00 Getting to the whys behind what a child says 39:00 Legal decisions, stonewalling, and 24-hour clauses Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 🔗 Nilaja Ford at Ford Brown Law: https://www.fordbrownlaw.com/ About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

  • S2026 · E369
    July 20 · 45 min

    Anne P. Mitchell: Spotting a False Allegation Before It Lands

    Anne P. Mitchell coined the term "co-parenting." Decades before that, she was one of the first two attorneys in the country to argue that children have a right to an ongoing relationship with their father after a separation, work she started before she even went to law school. Anne is an attorney, law professor, law dean emeritus, and legal journalist. She's the author of They're Your Kids Too, a guide for parents navigating a broken family law system, and she co-developed one of the earliest models of co-parent counseling with therapist Carol Marx. She's still licensed in California and continues to write and advocate through her Substack and her YouTube show, Fathers Are Parents Too. In this conversation, Anne walks through the pattern she learned to recognize in her own practice: a parent losing control of custody starts escalating, and a false allegation of abuse is often what she calls the "nuclear option." She lays out the concrete steps she told her clients to take before an allegation could land, and the case that pushed her to co-develop co-parent counseling, including the "cut the cake" method for getting a resistant ex to agree to a therapist. She also names what she calls the "silver bullet" strategy, where a parent files a restraining order early specifically to gain a custody advantage, and why she considers it as dangerous today as it was decades ago. Lisa and Anne also get into what to do when your own lawyer doesn't have experience with alienation or false-allegation cases, and how to push for a second opinion or a new attorney without damaging that relationship. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn Where the term "co-parenting" actually came from, and why the framing matters for your case The real driver behind most high-conflict acrimony, and how to recognize it escalating Early warning signs that a false allegation of abuse may be coming Concrete steps to protect yourself before an allegation ever gets filed What co-parent counseling is, what it isn't, and why it works when little else does The "cut the cake" method for getting a resistant ex to agree to counseling Why proving a false allegation can flip custody in some states The danger of the "silver bullet" restraining-order strategy being pitched online ⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 Intro 4:00 One of the first US attorneys to take up fathers' and children's rights 7:00 The case she could have won, and why she didn't 10:00 From "visitation" to two parents in two homes 13:00 False allegations, and what she told clients to do about them 19:00 Supervised time as a control tactic, and documenting everything 22:00 Restraining orders filed for custody leverage 25:00 What co-parent counseling is, and when courts order it 31:00 Pre-divorce counseling, and building a schedule around the real family 37:00 A case in progress: reunification therapy with teenagers 40:00 Finding a counselor, and how to coach your own attorney Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

  • S2026 · E368
    July 16 · 43 min

    Ashish Joshi: Parental Alienation Cases That Hold Up in Court

    Two labels get used for very different situations in family court, and mixing them up changes who the judge thinks is to blame. A "high conflict" case is two parents who can't agree on a pediatrician or a summer camp. A family violence case is one parent behaving abusively while the other parent, or the child, reacts to it. Attorney Ashish Joshi says that second parent should never carry blame for the reaction. Ashish Joshi practices family law and focuses nationally on domestic violence and parental alienation cases. His first book, Litigating Parental Alienation, is one Lisa has recommended for years. His new one, Litigating Family Violence, covers the wider category: coercive control, emotional and financial abuse, immigration used as leverage, international abduction, and the child psychological maltreatment that alienation falls under. He also teaches on these issues at legal and judicial conferences, including for judges in areas with few family law resources. In this conversation, Ashish and Lisa work through the difference between parental alienation, parent-child contact problems, and alienating behaviors, and why courts sometimes need all three distinctions to get an order right. They talk about what makes a reunification order enforceable: a named therapist, a deadline, and consequences for the parent who is supposed to bring the child to sessions. They cover why letting a rejected teenager decide how often to attend therapy undermines the process, when a judge can find alienation from a parent's own text messages without an expert witness, and what changes once custody has already been reversed but the child is still in constant phone contact with the parent who alienated them. Ashish also talks about the research on men experiencing coercive control and intimate partner violence, and about vicarious trauma, both for professionals who handle these cases and for the parents living through them. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn Why "high conflict" is the wrong label when one parent is abusive and the other is reacting to it The difference between parental alienation, parent-child contact problems, and alienating behaviors Why no child is ever "too old" for court intervention, as long as they're under the court's jurisdiction How to write a reunification order that can't be stalled: a named therapist, a deadline, and real consequences Why letting a child set their own therapy schedule undermines the whole process When a judge can find alienation without an expert witness, and when you actually need one Why safeguards, not just more parenting time, matter once custody has already changed The difference between a child's voice and a child's choice, and why courts should never confuse the two ⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 What "family violence" means, and why Ashish wrote a broader book 7:00 Why "high conflict" is the wrong label for these cases 11:00 Parental alienation vs. parent-child contact problems vs. alienating behaviors 15:00 When to bring resist-refuse dynamics to court 17:00 Severe cases: custody reversal, and why no child is "too old" 19:00 Writing a reunification order that can't be stalled 25:00 Why letting a rejected teenager set the therapy schedule backfires 31:00 When you need an expert witness, and when a judge doesn't 35:00 After the custody flip: the phone, enmeshment, and safeguarding reunification 39:00 The new book, self-care for the fight, and where to find Ashish Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 🔗 Ashish Joshi at Joshi: Attorneys + Counselors: https://www.joshiattorneys.com/ 🔗 Ashish Joshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashishsjoshi/ 🔗 Ashish Joshi's latest book at the American Bar Association: https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/456601936/ About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

  • S2026 · E367
    July 14 · 39 min

    Religious Abuse & Parental Alienation: How Faith Gets Weaponized in a High-Conflict Divorce

    What happens when your ex doesn’t just badmouth you to the kids, but tells them God is on their side? In this episode, Lisa talks with interfaith minister and trauma-informed therapist Sherri Heller about one of the most under-recognized weapons in a high-conflict divorce: faith itself. When a marriage involving a high-control religious system breaks down, the parent who leaves is rarely treated as someone making a healthy choice. They’re cast as the one who “deviated,” the one who is “morally depraved,” the one the children must be protected from. Sherri explains exactly how this plays out as parental alienation and why family courts so often miss it, pushing for reconciliation “at any cost” while the smear campaign hides in plain sight behind a veneer of virtue. If you’ve heard your own child repeat phrases that don’t sound like them, like one parent in this episode, whose child said she should be talking to “good Christians, not bad divorced people,” you’ve seen what Sherri calls borrowed scenarios and abuse by proxy: the child used as a vessel to carry the alienating parent’s message. She and Lisa talk through what to actually do in that moment, why opposing the indoctrination head-on backfires, and how to find the “middle ground” and the “way in” instead. You’ll also hear Sherri’s candid take on a hard truth we teach our own clients: in a system that won’t recognize this abuse, you have to learn to play the game. Stay tactical. Gray rock. Build leverage so you’re not completely cut off from your child, and plant seeds quietly (through nature, literature, science, and critical thinking) that give your kids room to find their own autonomy as they grow, especially in adolescence when the contradictions start to surface. Sherri and Lisa also talk about where to put your energy instead of into endless arguments. At Been There Got Out we teach our clients to look for the “universal agreements,” the handful of things both parents claim to want, like a child who is healthy, happy, and well cared for. Anchoring your communication there keeps you on the high ground, gives a watching judge a clear contrast between your behavior and your ex’s, and quietly removes the conflict your ex is fishing for. Sherri’s clinical framing of why opposition feeds the narcissist lines up exactly with the strategic communication we coach every day. There’s also real hope in this episode. Sherri reminds protective parents that the very contradictions an alienating parent creates tend to surface on their own, especially in adolescence, when the pressure of living inside someone else’s story starts to produce its own symptoms. The seeds you plant now, quietly and consistently, are often what your child reaches for later when they begin to question. Your steadiness is the long game. This is essential viewing if you’re navigating custody where religion, a controlling community, or a “messianic” ex is part of the picture. It pairs directly with our book “When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You” and our work on strategic communication. About our guest: Sherri Heller is an interfaith minister and trauma-informed therapist specializing in narcissistic abuse and complex trauma recovery, and a survivor herself. ⏱ CHAPTERS / TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Welcome — a topic we rarely cover 00:52 What is spiritual & religious abuse? 02:12 Meet Sherri Heller: minister & trauma-informed therapist 03:40 Common misconceptions (it’s not just isolated sects) 06:02 How love bombing opens the door 08:17 When the community sanctions the abuse 09:44 A survivor robbed of her future 11:23 Rigid rules: controlled marriages & forced isolation 13:31 Narrowing it to the family system 14:17 Red flags: cognitive dissonance & the absence of humility 17:47 Covert vs. overt: ontological gaslighting 18:48 Triangulating with the divine & prosocial camouflage 20:34 Grooming children into martyrs 24:49 Divorce, leaving the faith & parental alienation 25:51 Learning to “play the game” in family court 28:49 Borrowed scenarios & abuse by proxy 29:36 Finding the middle ground with an alienated child 31:34 When (and how) to tell kids a parent is mentally ill 33:32 Getting out: reclaiming yourself 35:27 Gray rocking, planting seeds & the adolescent awakening 37:21 Where to find Sherri Heller 37:53 Closing thoughts WHO WE ARE: Been There Got Out helps protective parents survive high-conflict divorce, custody battles, and parental alienation. Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry teach the strategy that attorneys often don’t — how to communicate, document, and present your case while protecting your relationship with your kids. We’ve been there. We got out. We’ll help you do the same. → Struggling with alienation right now? Book a free 30-minute discovery call: https://btgo.as.me/?appointmentType=24686877 → Get the book “When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You”: https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Out-Against/dp/1967674183/ Find Sherri Heller: https://sheritherapist.com/index.html #ParentalAlienation #ReligiousAbuse #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #NarcissisticAbuse #CoerciveControl #ProtectiveParent #CoParenting #BeenThereGotOut

  • S2026 · E366
    June 25 · 36 min

    The Science of Self-Medication: Trauma, PTSD & Substance Use After Abuse

    If you've been living in a high-conflict divorce or custody battle, you probably know that feeling all too well — the exhaustion that never quite leaves, the hypervigilance, the sense that your nervous system has forgotten how to relax. And for many people in these situations, a glass of wine at the end of the day has quietly become two, or three, or something stronger. Not because of weakness. Because of science. In this episode, Lisa sits down with Dr. Christal Badour, a licensed clinical psychologist and professor at the University of Kentucky, where she runs a research lab focused on trauma recovery and the intersection of PTSD and substance use disorders. Dr. Badour's work is dedicated to understanding why trauma and substance use co-occur so frequently — and more importantly, how to help people break that cycle. What you'll learn in this conversation will likely change the way you see yourself. 📌 WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE Dr. Badour opens by challenging one of the most persistent misconceptions in our space — the idea that trauma means a single catastrophic event. For people experiencing legal abuse, coercive control, and ongoing post-separation conflict, the damage often looks different: a chronic, lower-level activation of the stress response that erodes you over time. It's not a capital-T Trauma, but it creates many of the same consequences. From there, Lisa and Dr. Badour explore the self-medication hypothesis — the well-researched mechanism by which people dealing with painful experiences reach for substances to quiet their nervous systems. If you've ever needed something to take the edge off just to get through the day, this conversation is for you. Dr. Badour explains this not as a character flaw, but as a neurological response to overwhelming stress. The conversation takes a hopeful turn when Dr. Badour explains that you don't have to wait until the legal process is over to begin healing. Emerging research — much of it developed in military settings — shows that trauma treatment can actually begin even while the threat is still present. This is enormously important for BTGO listeners who are still in the middle of custody battles, still receiving hostile texts, still dreading the next court date. You'll also hear a moving story about one of Dr. Badour's clients — a woman who hadn't worn shorts in years because of the shame she carried from a sexual assault. The moment she walked into a therapy session in shorts? A powerful reminder of what real recovery looks like. 🕐 TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction — The Connection Between Trauma and Substance Use 01:45 Meet Dr. Christal Badour — Psychologist, Researcher, University of Kentucky 03:20 What Mental Health Professionals Mean by "Trauma" vs. What We Mean Everyday 06:10 Chronic Stress vs. Single-Incident Trauma — Why Ongoing Abuse Creates the Same Damage 09:30 Legal Abuse and the Nervous System — When the Threat Never Ends 12:00 Can You Start Healing Before You're Safe? What the Research Now Shows 15:40 The Self-Medication Hypothesis — Why Substances "Work" in the Short Term 20:15 Why Avoidance Feels Like Relief but Blocks Long-Term Recovery 23:30 How Substance Use Interferes With the Brain's Natural Processing of Trauma 27:00 Evidence-Based Treatment Approaches: Skills-Based vs. Trauma-Focused Therapy 31:50 EMDR, Written Exposure, and Approaches That Don't Require Talking About It 35:20 Animal-Assisted Therapy, Equine Therapy, and Complementary Approaches 38:40 Why Joy and Connection Are Also Part of Healing (Not Just Symptom Reduction) 41:10 AA, NA, Harm Reduction, and Choosing the Right Door for Where You Are 44:30 How to Support a Loved One Who Is Struggling 48:00 Success Stories — When the Shame Finally Lifts 51:00 Where to Find Dr. Badour | scienceforsurvivors.com

  • S2026 · E365
    June 22 · 32 min

    How to Stop Your Brain from Panicking at Every Text from Your Toxic Ex

    You know that feeling. Your phone buzzes. You see their name. And before you can even read the message, your heart is racing, your chest tightens, and you can barely think straight. You're not overreacting. You're not weak. Your brain has been literally wired by trauma to respond to that notification as if your life is in danger — because for a long time, it was. In this episode, Lisa sits down with Max Weigand, a positive psychologist from Germany and the creator of Psychosomatic Intelligence — a method that brings together the science of the mind, subconscious beliefs, and nervous system mastery to help people who are stuck in chronic fight-or-flight finally break free. If you're navigating high-conflict divorce, shared custody with a narcissistic ex, or family court proceedings, what Max shares in this conversation isn't just inspiring — it's immediately practical. Because the same nervous system that's been hijacked by years of abuse is the one you're being asked to perform with in court, in mediation, and in every co-parenting communication you send. Here's what makes this conversation so powerful for where you are right now: ✅ Why negative emotions literally shut down your prefrontal cortex — the part of your brain responsible for logic, reasoning, and staying calm on the witness stand ✅ The reason your brain can't tell the difference between a real threat and a text message from your ex — and why that's not a flaw, it's a survival feature you can learn to override ✅ What Max calls your 'emotional home' — the default emotional state you keep returning to — and how to identify whether yours is working for you or against you ✅ The 'reality filter' concept and why people stuck in victimhood aren't being dramatic — their brains are literally filtering out evidence of anything good ✅ Simple, free morning practices (journaling, gratitude, visualization, mindful tea) that Max says can rewire the brain's neural pathways — especially if used during the critical theta window right after waking ✅ The famous 'golden crocodile' demonstration that shows, in real-time, why trying NOT to think about something backfires every time — and what to do instead ✅ Max's take on forgiveness — not as something you do for your ex, but as the practice of learning to stop swallowing the poison Lisa makes a point in this conversation that will resonate with so many of you: the moment you hear a ding from your phone that might be a message from your abusive ex is the perfect example of the brain treating an imagined threat as a physical danger. Years after separation, the neurology of abuse is still running in the background. Max explains not just why that happens, but what to actually do about it. This is one of those conversations that feels equally useful whether you're deep in the legal battle right now or years out and still feeling the weight of it. The tools work at any stage — and they work faster if you're starting from a harder place. ⏱ TIMESTAMPS 00:00 — Introduction: Max's core philosophy — the further down you are, the more potential you have 02:09 — Why mastering the nervous system matters more than just changing your mindset 04:41 — Max introduces himself and Psychosomatic Intelligence 05:43 — How emotional dysregulation destroys decision-making — the prefrontal cortex goes offline 09:33 — Why your brain can't tell the difference between a real threat and a vivid memory or imagination 10:33 — The 'notification ding' effect: your body's panic response to a text from your ex 12:00 — Neural pathways: why the fear response gets stronger every time you repeat the pattern 12:27 — What is Psychosomatic Intelligence? The three-system alignment model 13:58 — Step 1: Awareness — identifying your 'emotional home' 16:33 — The mind-body feedback loop: how physical tension amplifies emotional states 17:01 — Projecting your body state onto other people — why a bad night's sleep creates conflict 17:25 — 'Living in victimhood': how the brain's reality filter traps you in suffering 19:14 — The reticular activating system: your brain's filter and how to reset it 20:33 — Practical tool: the 'what's going right' morning question 21:10 — Lisa's recommendation: 10 minutes of fun every day to balance stress hormones 21:20 — Abraham Lincoln and the sharp axe: why you can't afford NOT to pause 23:05 — Lisa shares her morning journaling practice and how it changed her days 24:00 — The theta window: why morning and evening are the most powerful times to rewire your brain 25:33 — The neuroplasticity moment: why it doesn't matter if you journal, visualize, or just drink tea 26:40 — The 'golden crocodile' live demonstration: why 'don't think about it' never works 27:38 — The pink fluffy unicorn: replace, don't resist — the neuroscience of positive focus 29:01 — Forgiveness: not about the other person — about choosing not to swallow the poison 29:25 — Lisa on 'apathy as freedom' and the goal of emotional peace 29:44 — Nikos Kazantzakis quote: 'I want nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.' 30:13 — Wrap-up and how to find Max

  • S2026 · E364
    June 18 · 29 min

    Ian Steinberg: Making Mediation Work With a High-Conflict Ex

    Two parents cannot sit across a table without it turning into a fight, so the mediation moves onto Zoom. Each one waits in a separate breakout room while the attorneys shuttle between them, trading a religious holiday here for an extra week of summer there, until an agreement takes shape without the two of them ever having to look at each other. Ian Steinberg practices matrimonial and family law in New York City, where his firm handles divorce across the city, Westchester, and Long Island. He is also a friend of Chris and Lisa's, returning for a second conversation. His first career was in real estate litigation, which taught him how a courtroom actually behaves; he later trained in mediation and collaborative law, convinced there was a less destructive path through a divorce. He traces his feel for conflict resolution back further than that, to refereeing adult-league hockey as a teenager, holding the whistle as the youngest person on the ice. Ian lays out how mediation works when one side holds far more of the power. In its classic form, two parties meet with a single neutral mediator and each consults a private attorney between sessions, so no decision binds anyone until it is written down and signed. He explains why a retired judge sitting as mediator can rein in a parent who is used to getting their way, and how separate rooms, in person or over video, keep a frightened party from having to negotiate across from someone who frightens them. He also makes the case for what mediation saves: money that would otherwise go to motion practice, and the momentum that comes from shrinking ten open issues down to two. For anyone walking into a first session scared, Ian offers a plan: prepare with your lawyer and your divorce coach, name the triggers you already know your ex will use, and write down every ask in advance. Above all, you are never required to say yes in the room, and a good lawyer will not corner you into it. He is equally clear about the cases where the power imbalance is too great or the conflict too raw, and mediation should not go forward at all. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn Why mediation can still work in a domestic violence case, but only with firm guardrails in place The difference between classic mediation and attorney-guided mediation, and when each one fits How a retired judge serving as mediator can shift a lopsided power dynamic What a consulting attorney does, and why nothing is binding until it is on paper How separate rooms and Zoom breakout rooms keep a frightened party from facing their ex How to prepare: your written asks, your known triggers, and the professionals around you Why you never have to agree on the spot, even when your own lawyer is pushing to close The signs that mediation should stop, or was never the right fit for your case ⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 Welcoming Ian back, and what litigation costs you 3:00 Learning conflict resolution as a teenage hockey referee 5:00 When family court does not protect the target 7:00 Two kinds of mediation, and the consulting attorney outside the room 11:00 Retired judges as mediators, and shifting a power imbalance 13:00 Lisa's own mediation, and the momentum of small agreements 17:00 Zoom breakout rooms and four-way conferences for safety 21:00 Preparing a scared client: asks, triggers, and support 25:00 Not getting pressured to settle, and informed consent 27:00 When mediation should stop or was never the right fit Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 🔗 Ian Steinberg at Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein: https://www.berkbot.com/attorneys/ian-steinberg/ 🎧 More with Ian Steinberg on this podcast Ep 128: What Family Court Judges Actually Weigh About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

  • S2026 · E363
    June 15 · 20 min

    "Am I Going to Lose My Child to Alienation?" A Psychologist Answers

    If you've ever found yourself paralyzed by the fear that your ex is slowly turning your children against you and there's nothing you can do about it, this conversation is for you. In this episode of Been There Got Out, Lisa Johnson sits down with Dr. Alicia del Prado, a licensed counseling psychologist based in the San Francisco Bay Area, to talk about one of the most painful experiences a parent can go through: parental alienation. But rather than focusing only on what's happening, Dr. del Prado brings her clinical expertise to what you can actually do — specific, grounded strategies to prevent alienation from taking hold, minimize its impact when it has already started, and stay psychologically intact through all of it. One of the most important things she says: fear is a filter. When we're operating from that deep, primal terror of losing our kids, we make decisions that can actually make things worse — not because we're bad parents, but because our nervous system is in survival mode. Understanding that is the first step toward changing it. WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE: ✅ What parental alienation actually is — and why it affects an estimated 22 million divorced and separated parents in the US and Canada alone ✅ Why feeling hopeless about parental alienation is understandable — and what to focus on instead ✅ How fear acts as a "filter" that distorts your decisions and what to do about it without suppressing your emotions ✅ The most common misconceptions people have about alienation — both from inside the situation and from the outside ✅ How to support a friend or family member going through parental alienation without saying the wrong thing ✅ How to use your child's love language to stay connected even when they're pushing you away ✅ What to do when your child screams at you, ignores you, or says they hate you ✅ The micro goals framework: how to keep showing up consistently even when you see no results ✅ Why children in these situations usually do come back — and what gives them the courage to TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 — Introduction: Why we're revisiting this conversation (audio issues from previous recording) 01:10 — What parental alienation actually is: a definition from a clinical psychologist 02:30 — The 22 million statistic: how widespread parental alienation really is 03:15 — Dr. del Prado's personal background and why this topic is close to her heart 04:30 — "I feel like it's destined" — addressing the hopelessness alienated parents feel 06:00 — Fear is a filter: how trauma responses hijack parenting decisions in high-conflict situations 08:15 — Misconceptions about parental alienation from the inside: why catastrophizing makes it worse 10:00 — Misconceptions from the outside: what friends and family get wrong and how to ask for support 12:30 — The Constructive Conversations model (with Dr. Anastasia Kim) for difficult dialogue 14:15 — Using love languages with alienated children: quality time, words of affirmation, gift giving, touch 17:00 — When your child doesn't respond to your love language efforts: the power of repetition 18:30 — Reliability and consistency: why attachment is built over time, not in a single reunion 20:00 — When children are openly hostile: what to do in the moment when your child screams at you 22:45 — Self-regulation tools for targeted parents (including Marsha Linehan's distress tolerance skills) 24:30 — Setting limits with your child during a hostile encounter without escalating 26:00 — Micro goals: why big reunion fantasies set you up to fail — and what works instead 28:30 — Making micro goals about your behavior, not your child's response 30:15 — Do alienated children come back? What the statistics actually show 31:30 — How to find Dr. del Prado and her practice ABOUT DR. ALICIA DEL PRADO: Dr. Alicia del Prado is a licensed counseling psychologist and the founder of a group practice in the San Francisco Bay Area. Her clinical work spans children, adults, families, and couples navigating relationship challenges, depression, anxiety, and trauma. Dr. del Prado brings both professional expertise and personal perspective to the topic of parental alienation — as a child of divorced parents herself, she understands both the systemic challenges families face and the emotional complexity children carry through these transitions. She is co-developer (with Dr. Anastasia Kim) of the Constructive Conversations model, a step-by-step approach to having difficult but necessary dialogues with people we care about. CONNECT WITH DR. DEL PRADO on Instagram: @DoctorDelPrado & @DelPradoCounseling

  • S2026 · E362
    June 11 · 45 min

    How to Survive a Parenting Coordinator When Your Ex Won't Cooperate

    If you've been ordered into parenting coordination, or you're wondering whether a parenting coordinator could help your high-conflict custody case, this conversation is for you. Lisa sits down with Nicole Sodoma, a family law attorney with 26 years of experience, founding partner of Sodoma Law (seven locations across the Carolinas), and a practicing parenting coordinator since 2005. What makes Nicole's perspective uniquely powerful is that she's not just an expert — she's a targeted parent who has personally worked with three different parenting coordinators since her own separation in 2019. She knows this process from every angle. Together, they break down what a parenting coordinator actually does, who gets one (and why), what the most common and costly mistakes parents make are, and the practical communication and documentation strategies that can help you stop making them — starting today. Whether your parenting coordinator seems to be favoring your ex, you're confused about what decisions they can and can't make, or you're just trying to understand how to use this process strategically, Nicole gives you a clear, honest roadmap. 🕐 TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Introduction — Who is Nicole Sodoma? 01:20 What is a parenting coordinator, and how does it connect to reducing conflict outside of court? 03:45 What qualifies as a "high conflict case" — the legal definition from North Carolina statute 06:10 Can a parenting coordinator tell right away who is high conflict? 08:30 Lawyer PC vs. mental health professional PC — which one should you choose? 11:00 Do parenting coordinators ever talk to your kids or observe exchanges? 13:20 Parenting coordinator vs. guardian ad litem vs. custody evaluator — what's the difference? 16:00 Nicole's personal story: three parenting coordinators after her 2019 separation 21:15 What happens when one party just won't cooperate with the PC process 24:30 Guardrails and impasse clauses — why your parenting plan needs them even without a PC 28:00 Legal decision-making areas: education, medical, extracurricular, religion — and now technology 31:00 Mistakes parents make — the full laundry list from Nicole 31:30 Mistake #1: Over-communicating with your toxic ex (and how to stop) 34:00 Bill Eddy's BIFF method and understanding high-conflict personalities 36:15 BTGO's Strategic Communication course — why communication is everything 38:00 Mistake #2: Reacting emotionally instead of strategically — the "knee jerk response" 40:30 Mistake #3: Choosing to win over choosing resolution 43:00 Mistake #4: Failing to recognize the real impact on your children 46:00 The 7-38-55 rule: why what you say matters less than how you say it 49:15 Mistake #5: Social media — why that post never feels as good as you think it will 52:30 Mistake #6: Not documenting patterns (and how to do it right) 55:45 BTGO's approach to targeted documentation — the "Super Bowl commercial" concept 58:00 Recording exchanges — when it helps and when it can backfire 01:01:00 Nicole's top 3 practical tips: shared children's email, school communication, blended family planning 01:06:00 Technology in parenting plans — social media rules, Apple accounts, and age parameters 01:09:00 How to find Nicole Sodoma + her book "Please Don't Say You're Sorry" 01:11:00 Closing thoughts and takeaways If this conversation helped you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs it. You are not alone in this. #ParentingCoordinator #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #CoParenting #FamilyLaw #NicoleSodoma #ParentingPlan #StrategicCommunication #ParentalAlienation #BeenThereGotOut

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