Associations NOW Presents

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An original podcast from the American Society of Association Executives where we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the U.S., and the world.

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#32
September 10 · 20 min
All for the Love of Chicago: Rethinking the Destination Experience
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, recorded live at ASAE’s Annual Meeting & Exposition in Indianapolis, host Sharon Pare of High Road Solutions welcomes Kristen Reynolds, president and CEO of Choose Chicago, for a conversation about the changing meetings and tourism landscape and what makes Chicago a compelling destination for associations. Reynolds shares her path to Chicago and discusses the city’s tourism momentum, from record-breaking convention attendance to major developments including the Obama Presidential Center, a revitalized Magnificent Mile, a new O’Hare terminal and new sports and entertainment projects. She also highlights Chicago’s accessibility, hospitality community and McCormick Place, as well as how Choose Chicago works with associations to create memorable experiences that extend beyond the convention center. The conversation explores the role of authentic storytelling in destination marketing, including the “Never Done, Never Outdone” campaign and the resident-driven “All for the Love of Chicago” initiative, which gives Chicagoans a platform to share their own stories about the city. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/Qo5DGBRhMuo This episode is sponsored by Choose Chicago. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, Partnerships Director at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot agency. We're recording live here from Indianapolis today for ASAE's Annual Meeting and Exposition, the Super Bowl of all association meetings. Today's episode is sponsored by Choose Chicago, and today we are excited to welcome Ms. Kristin Reynolds. She's the CEO and president of Choose Chicago, so I want to welcome you in. Kristen Reynolds: Thank you so much. It's exciting to be here. This is my first ASAE Annual Convention, and it's awesome. Sharon Pare: So now that it's your first time being here, how do you feel? What's the energy like? What are you hearing on the floor? Kristen Reynolds: Well, we're very excited, and we're mostly excited because Chicago is actually hosting in 2028. Yep. So we're here soaking up all the information, what's working, what people [00:01:00] love, what we can bring more of, how we can wow them when they come to Chicago. But really, there's a lot of excitement. There's a lot of energy on the show floor, but it's a state of transition. Right. There's a lot of change in our industry and in the world, and, and that can be difficult sometimes, but it's exciting. Sharon Pare: It's exciting, and talking about some of that change, is there something on the floor that maybe gives you a little bit of concern? Is there anything you're worried about? Kristen Reynolds: Well, I think everything gives... When you're a CEO, everything gives you concern. I live in a constant state of fear, and I think that's how you stay sharp, actually. But yes, there's a lot of things, technology, how it's advancing. You don't know how that's gonna change. Right. Newer generations coming into the workforce, especially in association memberships with are they getting what we used to get from being part of associations? Are they feeling that community? And how do we continue to bring in younger generations? There- there's a lot of those conversations going on right now, but really [00:02:00] mostly positive. This is a resilient business. Nonprofits are resilient organizations. Yes, they are. And I feel good about it at Choose Chicago because I always say, "The best people to navigate times of disruption are disruptors." Sharon Pare: That's Kristen Reynolds: right. And that's what we're all about. Sharon Pare: One thing I wanted to do before we really dig into everything is I know you've built your career in different states all around the United States. I know you started in Arizona maybe. That's right. That's right. And then at one point you were in- Kristen Reynolds: New York ... Sharon Pare: Long Island. Kristen Reynolds: Yes. Sharon Pare: And w- I don't know if you say Long Island or- Long Island ... how do you say it? Long Kristen Reynolds: Island. Sharon Pare: And then- Kristen Reynolds: And now Sharon Pare: Chicago. You chose Chicago. So tell us a little bit about Chi-Town ... Why did you choose Chicago? Kristen Reynolds: Why did I choose Chicago? I grew up pretty much in Arizona. I went to Arizona State. Both my daughters are Sun Devils, and so my family lives there. Going to New York was a big jump, but from my position, New York was like the pinnacle of tourism. Long Island's an incredible place to raise a family, but with still access to New York City. I was there for [00:03:00] 10 years, and then I became an empty nester. And I was, I think I'm too young to be on my front porch in a rocking chair on Long Island. I had another gig in me, and my husband is from Chicago. Mm-hmm. So here's a little tidbit. I say this all the time. I used to say he's from Chicago, born and raised. He went to Loyola Chicago, and my stepdaughter's there. But now that I live in Chicago, I say, "My husband's from the suburbs of Chicago," because that means a very different thing to Chicagoans than being from Chicago. So when the job came up, it just happened to be the perfect timing, and I really only wanna work for and represent a city that I feel a connection to and that I believe in, and Chicago is the best big city in the US for nine straight years. So I feel pretty lucky. Sharon Pare: That's a pretty lucky job that you have there. And before we talk about this later, I wanna mention that you're behind the mic today as a guest. Yes. But you've hosted two of your podcasts now. Yes. One when you were with Long Island, [00:04:00] which ... What was the name of it again? Yes. Kristen Reynolds: We started it during the pandemic when we couldn't market, and we wanted to, to story tell, and it was really the beginning of podcasts. It was called Long Island Tea. Oh, Sharon Pare: I love that. Kristen Reynolds: Where we spill the tea on living your best Long Island life. Okay. And it was a play on, obviously, Long Island Iced Tea, and it was great. I'll tell you, the first several f- few years it was sponsored by Long Island Wine Country, so we were contractually obligated to drink wine during the podcast. And so- Sharon Pare: It does not sound like a bad deal at all Kristen Reynolds: ... it was really fun. Then we had to realize, we had to kind of rein that in a little bit. That's okay. Sharon Pare: Hone it in sometimes. Kristen Reynolds: And then also I started another podcast there called The C-Suite Tea. Sharon Pare: Oh, okay. Kristen Reynolds: Which is still going on, which is fantastic. My COO, who's now the CEO, continues to take that over, and that's where we just would give C-suite advice because people really wanted to know more about it. And then when I came to Chicago, it was like, "Are you gonna start a podcast?" And I wasn't really planning on it, and then we launched this new campaign, and one thing led to another, and we now have a podcast in Chicago. Sharon Pare: So let's talk about Chicago. You [00:05:00] just said that Chicago's been named the best city for the last nine years. Yes. You had a record year for tourism in 2025. So when you look at those numbers, what are they telling you now about the momentum that you're seeing in the city right now? Kristen Reynolds: Yeah. That's the perfect word, and I'm, I get chills, honestly. You really do. But there is- I, I just got chills- ... goosebumps ... talking about it because I just feel so lucky to be in Chicago in this moment, and that's what we keep saying right now is Chicago is having a moment. We did just recently open this small attraction, you might have heard of it, called the Obama Presidential Center. No big Sharon Pare: deal. Kristen Reynolds: But there's so much more than that. There m- the Magnificent Mile, which is the Michigan Avenue, is ... There's so much resurgence. They just opened the Hello Kitty Cafe. Oh. And the first Cube in the US, and the Candy Hall of Fame is coming. There's so much development happening there. The Chicago Fire is building a new stadium, and the 1901 Project, which is the United Center, is having a complete renovation. There is so much momentum in Chicago, and from a meetings [00:06:00] and convention standpoint, we're seeing it as well, that the attendees this year, almost every single one of our meetings and conventions have broken records in attendance. Sharon Pare: That's amazing. Kristen Reynolds: And that's because there's so much for people to do and see when they're in the city. So it all builds on each other, and it all connects in the success of what we're seeing in our numbers. But we've had a record-breaking summer. Our summer this year continues to just soar above our comp set, which we're very lucky. Even without ... We are one of the non-host cities for the World Cup, and we are one of the only destinations in the US that actually saw an increase in June, almost double digits. It's really saying something about what the city has to offer. Sharon Pare: So you've shown up on all these lists. I know you've talked about some of the new developments that are coming up in Chicago right now. But what is it right now that are bringing these associations back? Now I ... Obviously- Mm ... those record number breaking attendee numbers are coming in. But what's something different today that maybe wasn't there five or 10 years ago about the city? Kristen Reynolds: I do think it's [00:07:00] a lot of the surrounding development that I just mentioned. But ultimately, the reason why we're a successful convention destination is we have McCormick Place, the largest convention center in North America. So we have the infrastructure. The infrastructure of Chicago, it just works. We have two international airports. Our airport, O'Hare, was just named again the busiest airport in the world. Sharon Pare: It sure is. Kristen Reynolds: I know. There are pros and cons, right? When you're landing, it might take you a little bit long to taxi. And we're building a new terminal at the O'Hare Airport. So our location in the center of the country actually makes it so accessible, so easy to get there within three, three and a half hours from pretty much anywhere. Plus, we have such a great regional drive market to be able to drive that attendance. Our team is really gelling. Our team at Choose Chicago I think is the best in the industry when it comes to customer service. We respond. What I love about Chicago, and you said I've worked in multiple different states. I'll tell you, in New York, [00:08:00] kind of come or don't. You know what I mean? We're New York, so good luck. Sharon Pare: Yep. Kristen Reynolds: In Arizona, it was very much why wouldn't people come to Arizona? We're sunny all the time. Right. What do you mean we have to tell people? But Chicago competes. Chicago as a city- Compete, they wanna win, and our whole community rolls up their sleeves and comes together to make meetings successful. Sharon Pare: Now I wanna talk a little bit about some of the infrastructure. You s- you mentioned it before, no big deal, the Obama Presidential Center, the 1901 Project, the Chicago Fire Stadium. But what do you think these recent developments are going to ... For what are the attendees when they come to the city, what is gonna surprise them the most about some of these new investments to the city? Kristen Reynolds: And I think it's the investments, but also it's the events and the festivals. We just hosted Lollapalooza. Sharon Pare: I heard that was amazing. Kristen Reynolds: Ah. I'm telling you, all my college age kids and their friends all went, and it's an amazing city. Again, the fact that we can bring in 400,000 people plus in a [00:09:00] tight area in four days. Sharon Pare: I've seen pictures. Kristen Reynolds: And really just have wonderful energy. Yes. Wonderful experiences. There were ... You don't hear about incidents or ... It is really just such a ... It's beautiful. It's a magical experience. The skyline behind it and, and everybody walking around enjoying the city. What the city has to offer as far as infrastructure is we just launched our new campaign, it's called Never Done, Never Outdone. Mm-hmm. And that's really what we're talking to people about. Every time you come, we are never done evolving, we are never done growing and building, and we won't be outdone for what we wanna deliver in our hospitality. Sharon Pare: Just like you said, your city is always earning that right to be the best city for the last nine years. So I wanna go back to not just Lollapalooza- Yeah ... but just the experience of the city. When an association chooses Chicago, how do you help them take that experience beyond the convention center, the four walls? I know that we're live in one right now. Yes, yes. But what is it that your city does to [00:10:00] give everyone that experience? Kristen Reynolds: I think that's our sweet spot or secret sauce, however you wanna say it, and that's what Choose Chicago is best at, as we know that people are coming to Chicago for the city of Chicago. We are the host of the annual James Beard Awards. We are a culinary city. Sharon Pare: Yes, you are. Kristen Reynolds: It's where The Bear is filmed, right? For a reason. So when people come, we know they wanna eat out. They wanna have these incredible experiences. They wanna go to Navy Pier. They see the water. They wanna go out on the boat cruises. Oh, you have to go on the boat cruise. The architectural... If you have not gone on an architectural boat cruise, have you ever really been to Chicago? No. No. Obviously. You have to do this. Sharon Pare: Took me 10 times. Kristen Reynolds: It took me, it took me several too- Yes ... going back, and then finally I was like, "Gotta do this boat cruise." Sharon Pare: Yes. Kristen Reynolds: And then I'm like, how did it take me so long? But that, that is the experience that we know drives success for meetings and conventions, and what attendees are looking to do. Outside the walls, yes, you wanna come in, but the vendors wanna have a great place to host their top clients. The attendees want something that they can have pre [00:11:00] and post with their families and extend their trip, and that's really what Chicago does best. We have a great client services department that many of them have been there for more than 20 years. We have relationships with every single person and business in our city, from the medical district to the restaurants. So anything that you're looking to do to make your event successful or make more excitement for your attendees, that's what we deliver. Sharon Pare: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Ad Read: Chicago, a city connected. Not just by train lines or shorelines, but by the drive to never settle. We talk less, dream bigger, and never stop pushing. We change the course of rivers and the course of history. When we build things, the world looks up. Here in Chicago, [00:12:00] world-class venues, trailblazing industries, and captivating experiences come together to create events that redefine what's possible. We don't just host meetings, we transform them. So welcome to the greatest city in the world. Because in Chicago, we are never done and we are never outdone. Sharon Pare: I will say, just being a frequent visitor to Chicago, I always feel the warmth. Yes. Especially coming from the East Coast. Yes. You get that Midwest warmth with that swagger. Yes. Like that never out done. Kristen Reynolds: Never outdone. Sharon Pare: Exactly. You got it right. Kristen Reynolds: Yes. Sharon Pare: Awesome. So if somebody listening is thinking about Chicago for a future meeting, what do you want them to know about where Chicago is headed? Kristen Reynolds: I want people to know that Chicago is the best big city in the US for a reason. But we also ... What you just said is so perfect, Sharon. It's a big small city. [00:13:00] So the hospitality is genuine, that Midwest nice is real. Everybody wants to help you when you come in. It's, like I said, moving from New York, at first it was a little off-putting. You're like, "Is this real? What's your angle? What do you want? What are you talking?" Sharon Pare: Yeah. Kristen Reynolds: But no, it's real. It's genuine. And I want people to know that when you come to Chicago, you're going to have the best experience. The number one thing, especially first timers to Chicago say is, "Wow. Wow, I had no idea." So it's not gonna be the best kept secret for much longer. Investments and housing and relocation and corporate relocation, it's going through the roof right now. So if you're thinking about it, now's the time to book. Sharon Pare: So I know you're a natural born storyteller, but let's go back to your podcast. Okay. I wanna talk a little bit more about what is the story that you're trying to tell differently now on the podcast, something you're trying to go deeper on with your Kristen Reynolds: All Sharon Pare: for the Love- Yes of Chicago? Kristen Reynolds: Yeah. So we launched this campaign on social media called [00:14:00] All for the Love of Chicago really during this time of political strife when there were federal agents, and there was just a lot of misinformation coming out about our city. And we had just launched Never Done, Never Outdone, and a lot of our stakeholders were, reached out and said, "Kristin, we need help from Choose Chicago." But when you wanna tell a genuine, authentic story about your city, it's not gonna come from the marketing organization always. So, we launched All for the Love of Chicago on TikTok and Instagram to give the camera to the people. So we told all of our residents, all of our visitors, "Send us your video about why you love Chicago from your words, no prompting, and then we just repost it." And it was so popular on social that we decided to launch the podcast, All for the Love, to have that long form storytelling. So it's very different than Long Island Tea, which was mostly just internal. Each episode we bring in a Chicagoan. We bring in somebody that's gonna tell you a story, a behind the scenes, we pull the curtain back. Mm. And it really is to showcase [00:15:00] from the Chicagoan's perspective what our city is all about, and to take ownership and control back of our story for our residents, and to give you really genuine information. These days with AI and ... I can't tell you how many videos I send to my college-aged daughters and they're like, "Mom, that's not real. That's AI." I'm like, "What?" Sharon Pare: Are you admitting guilt right now? Kristen Reynolds: I am. And I'm like, "How?" So to know what's real is so important in today's environment. That's what we're, that's our goal, is to show you the real Chicago. And once you know the real Chicago, th- there's no denying it, you will love it. Sharon Pare: So I think this is a perfect segue for us to know the real Kristen Reynolds. Okay. So I've got a few questions for you. Kristen Reynolds: Okay. Sharon Pare: My first one is, what's your perfect Saturday in Chicago? Now, I know there's a song. There's a whole song- ... about Saturday in the park by Chicago. Yes. So I'm thinking about that now, but Kristen Reynolds: what's- Now that’s in my head. Sharon Pare: What is Kristen Reynolds' favorite Saturday thing to do in Chicago? Kristen Reynolds: I have two dogs, [00:16:00] and so I- luckily, they force you to get out and walk a lot, and I live right in the heart of downtown Chicago. Oh, okay. I- Sharon Pare: City dogs. Kristen Reynolds: Yeah they're city dogs. Yes. Yes. And so I love to, I walk along the river. I love to get up, walk along the river. There's so many places. It's a very dog-friendly city. You can sit outside, have brunch. I'm a big bruncher. I love to go to Lincoln Park- Okay ... for brunch because they have a wonderful farmers market there on the weekends especially. You walk around. There's always pop-ups, and so it's so great. And then come back, and then h- honestly, the lakefront. That's one of Chicago's... It really is what sets it apart, is that beautiful lakefront. Yes. Enjoying the lakefront. There's trails. There's biking trails, running trails. And then y- to catch that sunset, there's nothing like it. And then maybe a glass of wine. But a speakeasy. I've, I'm feeling a theme, f- from, from mimosas to speakeasy wines. But no, there's so much to see and do, and it's honestly the biggest [00:17:00] challenge of representing a city like Chicago is there is so much to do- So much ... and see, and I'm trying to do it all, and it's, not enough fits into one Saturday. Sharon Pare: Not enough fits into one Saturday. So if somebody only had a Saturday, and it was- Yes their first time in Chicago- Yes ... and you're like, "There's the one thing you need to do," what would it be? Kristen Reynolds: So I actually do this a lot. Okay. Ever since I've s- become the CEO there, every... I can't tell you, at least 10 people have come to Chicago that I know for the first time because they've seen me posting about it. Yeah. And they're like, "We're coming." So you have to go to the Bean. Sharon Pare: Okay. Kristen Reynolds: You have to get the obligatory reflection picture in the Bean. And then the, what I love about the Millennium Park area where the Bean is, and which kind of flows into Grant Park, is, again, you've got the waterfront. You've got Buckingham Fountain. To go through there, I think one of the surprising things about Chicago is the public space and the open park area. It is so beautiful all year round 'cause in the winter, by the way, it turns into the ribbon ice skating rink. Really, I send everyone to downtown. [00:18:00] Go down Mag Mile. Check out the Bean. Go to Grant Park. Go to the fountain. Really enjoy our outdoor public spaces. Sharon Pare: All right. Second to last question. Kristen Reynolds: Okay. Sharon Pare: I know that your husband is from the suburbs- Suburbs ... of Chicago. Yeah. But what is the most Chicago thing about you? Kristen Reynolds: You know what? I live steps from Mag Mile, and every now and then somebody will say, "You walk around the city all the time. Is it safe?" I'm like, the scariest thing about living in Chicago is walking by the stores with my credit card and not taking it out. I say that legitimately. The biggest Chicago thing about me is I love to shop. Sharon Pare: Oh, yeah. Kristen Reynolds: And I love the stores on the Mag Mile, and every time I walk by they've changed the windows, and I'm like, I- now I need that. Sharon Pare: It's not window shopping anymore. Kristen Reynolds: Exactly. Sharon Pare: It's like, here's my plastic. Kristen Reynolds: That is it. And I'm also, I love the food. I'm a big foodie coming from New York. So the James Beard and Michelin star restaurants, to the mom and pop local restaurants that I love. So I [00:19:00] love to shop and I love to eat out. That's very Chicagoan of me, yes. Sharon Pare: It really is. It's not me- And so my last question then is deep dish. Kristen Reynolds: Yeah. Sharon Pare: Overrated, underrated? Kristen Reynolds: It's funny, 'cause before I moved there, being a New York pizza person- Sharon Pare: That's right ... Kristen Reynolds: I would have said overrated. But now I have it and I say definitely worth it on occasion. Ah. But here's an inside tip. Chicagoans will tell you tavern-style pizza. It's thin crust, it's over the edge. I've never heard that one before. This is some legit inside scoop. Like, that is Sharon Pare: super Kristen Reynolds: intel. Next time you go, tavern-style pizza is what, that's where it's at for the locals. Sharon Pare: Okay. Heard. Kristen Reynolds: There, we I know, we just, I just blew your mind. Sharon Pare: You blew my mind. Yeah. I had never even heard of tavern-style pizza. Kristen Reynolds: Yep, now you have to come back. Sharon Pare: AI wouldn't tell you that. You gotta talk to Kristen Reynolds about it. That's right. Exactly. Kristen, thank you so much. I mean, this was, has been amazing. I've learned so much about Chicago today. I've always loved the city. Now I wanna go back, and guess what? I'm gonna be back in October, so I might hit you up and Kristen Reynolds: get some of this intel. I'm gonna, I'm gonna grab you. We'll go get some tavern-style pizza. Sharon Pare: I, yes. Okay. And that's what we're gonna do. So thank you so much, and thanks to [00:20:00] everyone for listening to this podcast of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series. Please make sure to join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. We want to give a big thanks to our episode sponsors, Choose Chicago, and be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
#31
August 27 · 22 min
Exploring New Frontiers: Leadership, Resilience and the Future of Spaceflight
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, recorded live at ASAE’s Annual Meeting & Exposition in Indianapolis, guest host Joanna Pineda of the Associations Thrive podcast welcomes Dr. Shawna Pandya, Canada’s first named commercial female astronaut, who is preparing to fly with Virgin Galactic. Dr. Pandya explores how commercial human spaceflight is creating new pathways to space and shares how her background as a physician informs her work in space medicine, focused on keeping people healthy and performing at their best in extreme environments. She also discusses her experiences as an aquanaut on NEPTUNE saturation missions in the Florida Keys and how underwater environments can help researchers study crew dynamics and test technologies for space. Dr. Pandya highlights research priorities ranging from neuroscience and women’s health to health technology and physical sciences, reflects on the role of leadership and resilience throughout her career, and looks ahead to the next generation of commercial spaceflight. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/32Zx7varMag This episode is sponsored by Destination Canada. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Joanna Pineda: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Joanna Pineda, CEO and chief troublemaker at Matrix Group International, and we're recording here in Indianapolis during ASAE's Annual Meeting & Exposition. This episode is sponsored by Destination Canada. And today, we are so excited to welcome Dr. Shawna Pandya, Canada's first named commercial female astronaut. Dr. Pandya, welcome to the show. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Thank you so much for having me here. It's just wonderful to be here. Joanna Pineda: Dr. Pandya, what does it mean to be a, I wanna make sure I get this right, a named commercial female astronaut? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, that's a great question. So once upon a time, the only path to get to space was to be an agency astronaut, so being a Canadian Space [00:01:00] Agency astronaut, being a NASA astronaut. And now I often like to say that this is the best possible time to be alive in human space flight because there are multiple paths to space. So you can be a commercial astronaut. You can be an agency astronaut. You can be an agency astronaut who retires and works with a commercial company as one of their astronauts. So when we talk about commercial astronauts, we mean an astronaut who's going to space with a company like SpaceX–in my case Virgin Galactic–Blue Origin, Axiom, Vast. And so the path of how to get to space and who gets to go to space is changing. So in Canada, we've had a number of commercial astronauts, including William Shatner, probably the most famous one. Makes sense. But there've been no females so far. So for women astronauts, we've had Dr.Roberta Bondar and Julie Payette, who have flown with the Canadian Space Agency, Jenni Sidey-Gibbons, who will soon fly with the Canadian Space Agency, and on the commercial side, I have the honor and privilege of being the first named commercial female astronaut. Joanna Pineda: That is just amazing. [00:02:00] Congratulations. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Thank you. It still feels like I'm processing the information. Joanna Pineda: Yeah. I'm curious, when you were a little girl, what did you want to be? Dr. Shawna Pandya: I definitely wanted to be an astronaut, and so I think this is where the story of where representation matters. It does. I was a kid growing up in the '90s, and I got to watch Canada's first female astronaut go to space. I heard of Dr. Roberta Bondar and her space flight, and I thought, "Canadian women can do that. I want to do that. I'm a Canadian woman, so if I want to do that, I should just follow Dr. Bondar's path." And so she's a neuroscientist, a physician, and an astronaut, so I thought, "Okay, that's what I'll do. There's no question about it. I'll go study neuroscience, medicine, and then go be an astronaut." Joanna Pineda: Oh, so you were trying to follow her path. Dr. Shawna Pandya: From the very start, like when I was 15, I knew that I was going go do a neuroscience degree. There was no- nothing else I was gonna apply to, and so that became the blueprint for me, and then I took a few detours along the way. I did my master's degree in space studies at the International Space [00:03:00] University, and that's where I learned that space medicine is this whole field dedicated to keeping astronauts alive and healthy in space, and this was prior to my getting into medical school. And so this really shaped my path and trajectory coming to medical school. And so these days I like to say every part of my life is either space medicine or space medicine. Joanna Pineda: Okay, so help me out a little bit. So I think about astronauts as being former military, former Air Force, but you're taking the physician astronaut route. Yeah. Talk to me about this. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, and that's a really good question. And so when we look at the history of where human space flight came from, it wasn't a journey of science and exploration. It was a political showdown between the Soviet Union and the Americans. And so of course they were going to have military pilots, and in those days, females were barred from applying to that position. So of course it was gonna be military test pilots who were male. And then as we moved out of the Cold War era into one [00:04:00] of cooperation, and even the USSR and the USA at that time did collaborate in space. There's a very famous Apollo-Soyuz test project in the 1970s wherein the commanders of the Apollo and the Soyuz docked together and shook hands across space and time. Joanna Pineda: Amazing. Dr. Shawna Pandya: That was widely viewed as a very diplomatic beginning of a detente and a thawing of relations in the Cold War. And so then that's what ushered in the next era of space exploration, and we saw the Skylab and the Mir and the shuttle eras, and now it's the International Space Station era. So this is one of science, discovery, collaboration, cooperation, and today the ISS is supported by five key partners, the USA- Right Europe, Canada, Japan, and Russia. And now, in addition to being in the ISS era, we're also ushering ourselves forward into simultaneous multiple new eras. So that includes commercial space stations in low Earth orbit. That is [00:05:00] happening. Commercial human space flight, so astronauts like myself. And then also exploration of class missions, and we saw the first of that with the Artemis II mission earlier this year. So there's a whole lot happening, and so this is what I mean when I say it's the best possible time to be alive in human space flight. Joanna Pineda: So it sounds like commercial space flight combined with government-sponsored space flight has really opened up just vast new possibilities. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Absolutely. There's a whole new world out there, and it's not that we're living in separate silos where it's just agency or just commercial space. We see a very close partnership between commercial and agency space flights. So for example, SpaceX is the provider for NASA, for the Canadian Space Agency to the International Space Station. We see companies like Axiom, like Fast, partner with NASA to take private astronauts to the International Space Station. So it really is this whole new pathway towards space. Joanna Pineda: So Dr. Pandya- You're an [00:06:00] aquanaut and an astronaut. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yes. Joanna Pineda: So talk to me about why you're an aquanaut, and what is that, and what's the training to be both an aquanaut and an astronaut? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Happily. And yes, I get this question a lot. What is an aquanaut? Why are you an aquanaut? How does that inform your space work? And so I think the easiest way to paint this picture is when I was on my first aquanaut mission, my commander, he had this amazing shirt, and the caption was, "Same, but different." That was the caption, "Same, but different." And the image was this aquanaut underwater doing work at the bottom of the sea, and their umbilical with their life support and their air is snaked up. And then it turned into the umbilical and air supply of an astronaut up in space. Ah. And so the same but different pertains to this idea of working in what we call an ICE environment, so an isolated, confined, extreme environment. And so the definition of an aquanaut is someone who lives at saturation, so [00:07:00] an increased pressure, which you will be at if you're underwater. And once you're in that environment for more than 24 hours, all the gas bubbles that are gonna dissolve into your body will have dissolved, so now you have unlimited bottom time. So you just live and work there for as long as you need until it's time to surface, and then you'll surface at a set rate. So that's the definition of an aquanaut. And actually, the space agencies themselves pioneered this tradition of sending their astronauts to live and work underwater. And the idea was that they would build their crew dynamics, have their crews get used to working in this closed, confined space. They would do science that would inform human space flight. They would test technologies that might be used in space. And so that was the beginning of it. And so I was lucky enough to do a civilian aquanaut mission in the Florida Keys. I've done it twice now. I've lived and worked and done science underwater for a total of 11 nights [00:08:00] and 10 days with an amazing crew. So two Canadians, three Americans, and these were the NEPTUNE missions. So everything in space, exploration and medicine is an acronym. Our mission is another acronym, NEPTUNE, which stands for Nautical Experiments in Physiology, Technology and Underwater Exploration. And so that was the- Joanna Pineda: Nice acronym there. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah. We really worked on the team name. And it really was a lesson in learning to be a good crewmate, a good teammate, being able to live in this confined environment. But when you do it with the right crew, it ends up feeling like something you don't want to leave at all. Your crew becomes like your family, and I still talk to my fellow aquanauts every day. Joanna Pineda: Wow. I wanna go back to the science a little bit and the medicine, and I've got a question here for you. In addition to all of these wonderful things that you're doing, you're director of IIAS's Space Medicine Group and chief instructor for IIAS's Operational Space Medicine course. So are you a physician to astronauts or a physician doing [00:09:00] research in space? Dr. Shawna Pandya: All of the above. Yeah. Joanna Pineda: Okay. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah. And the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences is, as you've said, where I do my research, where I teach space medicine, and it's the institute with which I'll be flying to space. And so to just back it up a little bit, I often get funny looks or I get asked, "What is space medicine? Why do those two terms belong- Right ... in a sense together?" And my one-line answer to that is that space is trying to kill you. And so spa- the space environment is a little bit different in that there are a number of hazards that we have to think about in space that we take for granted being here in this podcast environment where we have gravity. Up in space, you don't have gravity. It's increased radiation. There's that isolation and confinement which can affect behavioral health performance and mental health. When you go to a destination like the moon, there's lunar dust. There's altered day and night cycles which can impact your sleep and performance. So there's a lot. So space medicine is a little bit different from traditional medicine in that you're not trying to cure disease. You're actually [00:10:00] trying to take high-performing individuals and keep them healthy and keep them performing well. And so- I first discovered this field when I did my master's degree at the International Space University. As part of that master's degree, I interned at the European Astronaut Center with their crew medical support office, and this is when I really learned that people make entire careers out of space medicine, out of keeping astronauts surviving and thriving in the space flight environment. So these days at AAIS I hold a number of titles and portfolios, and one of them is space medicine, so I direct the space medicine group, as you say, and we've done a number of s- medical research in, in parabolic flight, zero G, sub-orbital space flight, and orbital space flight. So different space flight environments. I teach space medicine as the chief instructor, and then I'm also a research astronaut, as we've talked about. We'll be flying to space with Virgin Galacticto do some cool research in space. Joanna Pineda: It's really interesting, 'cause when you just explained it as at the bottom of the ocean. It's an ice [00:11:00] environment, and in space it's an ice environment. I guess they're very similar conditions. Dr. Shawna Pandya: That's exactly it. Joanna Pineda: Pressure, it could kill you. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yep. Joanna Pineda: You have to maintain oxygen. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yep, all of it. Joanna Pineda: Let's take a quick break for a word from our episode sponsor, Destination Canada. Ad Read: From fresh perspectives to bold breakthroughs, Canada brings people together to imagine what's possible. It's where visionary leaders like Dr. Shawna Pandya show how curiosity, collaboration, and openness can turn complex challenges into meaningful change. In Canada, business events connect you with world-leading expertise, inspiring destinations, and fresh perspectives that spark ideas, strengthen partnerships, and create lasting impact. Learn more about why Canada is the natural choice for your next business event at businesseventscanada.ca. [00:12:00] So what's the number one health issue that you're trying to address or research? Dr. Shawna Pandya: So we have a number of research priorities for our upcoming mission. With my background in medicine, a number of them are biomedical priorities, so those include neuroscience, health technology that can both help astronauts in space flight, but also help our most in need environments and resource limited environments back on Earth. It also includes women's health, and then finally, physical sciences and building on some of the science results we had from our institute's first space flight. Joanna Pineda: All right, so you got a lot that you're going to be researching while you're in space. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah. We've been really lucky in that we have a whole plethora of science payloads that may come with us. We're definitely furthering the science and what we've learned from our first mission, and now we've also partnered with some of the leading organizations around the world. We held a global call for science in these priority areas shortly after our flight was announced, and so [00:13:00] we've already down selected once, and now we're going through further down selects. And then we're also pioneering our own research in women's health as well. Um, Joanna Pineda: Dr. Pandya, you are doing a walk and talk session during the ASAE annual conference. So tell us about that. I think it's coming up. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, it's coming up tomorrow for those who are in attendance at ASAE 2026, and this actually brings us back to Earth because we've talked about a lot that may not pertain to everyone's daily life. We've been talking about space medicine, we've been talking about austere environments, and tomorrow what I'm going to be talking about is people, legacy, pushing the limits and perspectives. And then how my experiences in space and space flight come back to the day-to-day lives of association leaders and what association leaders can learn about creating impact, working with their communities, and learning to leave a legacy as not just leaders, but stewards. Joanna Pineda: Wow. I'm signed up for it. Amazing. So I'm [00:14:00] looking forward to it. And let me go back to this podcast. So this podcast is sponsored by Destination Canada. Has being Canadian influenced or guided your career as an astronaut and aquanaut? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Absolutely. So when I think of what it means to be a Canadian astronaut, so my path is a little bit different. No Canadian woman has flown commercial yet. But taking the bigger picture and zooming out a little bit, I still abide by what I've learned from the role models who've gone before me. I started out wanting to be a Canadian astronaut, and when I was younger, it was the only path towards becoming an astronaut was through the Canadian Space Agency. And so I closely followed the careers of all of the Canadian astronauts, everyone from Roberta Bondar to Chris Hadfield, and now Jeremy Hansen with the Artemis II mission. And every single one of Canada's astronauts has left very big shoes to fill. They've blazed trails. They [00:15:00] performed at a level of excellence that has set a new bar. And so for me, that's what I grew up believing in. And so my hope is for anyone who wants to follow my career is that this further raises the bar of what it means to be a Canadian on the international and maybe even off earth stage- Yeah ... and to set the standard of what it means to lead with excellence, to be a good teammate, to leave an impact, and to do so with quiet confidence. Joanna Pineda: Is there a Canadian trait that you think has really helped your career? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, I think it's not just one trait, but I think it's just this willingness to embrace adversity. There's this term in positive psychology that we call salutogenesis. And so what that means is instead of viewing an adverse or harsh or extreme environment as something that might harm you, it's an opportunity to grow and to rise to the occasion. And being Canadian, having grown up in Edmonton, you only need to experience a minus 40 [00:16:00] winter once to know that is the perfect- That's an Joanna Pineda: extreme environment ... Dr. Shawna Pandya: That is an extreme environment. You don't even need to pay to go anywhere exotic because it's right in your own backyard. And so that resilience, that adversity can breed resilience. Ah. And it can also breed this idea of embracing salutogenesis, embracing this idea of rising to the occasion, using adversity as an opportunity to bl- make ourselves better and develop our character. Joanna Pineda: Sell me on going to Edmonton. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Oh my gosh, Edmonton. There's so much to do- Ah ... and to see there. The restaurant scene has become something else over the past two decades. Every time I turn around, there's something amazing to try there. Whether you're talking, regardless of the time of year, you wanna visit in the winter, there's winter sports, there's skiing. Yeah. In the summers, there's the river valley, there's the greenery, there's the Muttart Conservatory. And of course, I would be remiss if I didn't mention West Edmonton Mall. So- Ah ... I had a friend I hadn't seen in 17 years who visited last week, and he did not know about the mall. [00:17:00] And for anyone who has not experienced West Edmonton Mall, it's one of the world's largest malls. Joanna Pineda: Oh. Dr. Shawna Pandya: For a while, it was the world's largest mall. Sometimes it changes depending on who's adding a new addition to a new level or phase to their mall. But there's Ice Palace, there's a mini golfing, there's go-karting, there's an indoor water park, there's an indoor amusement park, there's a hotel, and there's over 800 shops. So, you know, this is a fixture. It's if you're gonna visit Edmonton, you have to make time to see West Edmonton. All right. Joanna Pineda: I've had the opportunity to visit many cities in Canada, from the West Coast to the East Coast, and so I think Canada's just a wonderful place to hold a meeting as well as vacation. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Absolutely. Fully agree. Joanna Pineda: Is there a specific Canadian dish that you would recommend or that we must try if we go to Canada? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Oh my gosh, there are so many, and I think it actually ends up being a little bit regional. Mm-hmm. Now, I know Canadians are known for everything from poutine. Joanna Pineda: Yes. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Um, so for me, I actually just love to [00:18:00] experience what the city I'm visiting has to offer. But if you're in Edmonton, what I love about the downtown scene is that the restaurant scene is really hot. Some of the, there's amazing brand new cuisine that are cropping up all the time. And so I'd say more than- championing any one dish. I think it's whatever you want, you will find, and you'll find at quality in Edmonton. Joanna Pineda: Yeah. I have found whenever I've been to Canada that you're absolutely right. Somehow it's the melting pot also- Yeah ... of the different cultures- Yeah ... in Canada that makes every city unique. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, absolutely. So it's really funny. For anyone who follows me online, they'll know that I have certain staples of what I eat when I travel, and I travel so much. It ends up being this predictable repertoire. But recently it's also included Thai food, and so I recently just experienced one of the best Thai restaurants I have in Edmonton. And whatever you want, whether it's Thai food, pizza, Indian food, you'll find it, and you'll find it [00:19:00] at an exceptional level in Cana- in Edmonton. Joanna Pineda: Hey, let's get back to being an astronaut and an aqua- and an aquanaut. What would you say to someone who's interested in this? They look at you and they say, "Ah, I want to be like Dr. Bandya." What's the path? What's the training? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, I think growing up and not having any path before me, so there was no path towards becoming a commercial astronaut when I was younger, that those entities didn't even exist. And now being Canada's first named commercial female astronaut, it is making and paving the way as I go. And so what I would say to anyone who's trying to blaze trails in an area that may be lesser known, don't let anyone stop you. Set your goals. Joanna Pineda: Love that. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Work really hard. It costs nothing to become the hardest working person in the room. Yeah. And pick out what you love and then make space for yourself. Joanna Pineda: I love that. Yeah. Is there a myth about being an astronaut that you wish [00:20:00] you could just dispel? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah, I think, I think that a- any time that anyone thinks that y- you're an astronaut, it's that you're in zero G all the time, and certainly I've flown zero G in parabolic flight. Some of you know what this is, the Vomit Comet. I've done 18 of these flights. I highly recommend them. They're super fun. But it's not that I'm doing that every day. There's a lot of discipline. There's a lot of embracing the long game. I've been doing this, I've been working with my research institute for 11 plus years now. There's a lot of meetings. There's a lot of documentation. There's a lot of documentation around safety, around ethics when you're doing human research, around science reviews. So you really have to love every single minute of it. But, you know- If you can love every step of the journey, you're gonna be living the dream, and I'm lucky enough to be doing it with an amazing team and an amazing crew. Joanna Pineda: So when do you fly? When do you go into space? Dr. Shawna Pandya: That's a great question. So I will be flying with Virgin Galactic, and right now I am waiting on Virgin to build us a new spaceship. So they [00:21:00] retired their previous spaceship, the Unity class of spacecraft, in 2024 to make way for their new Delta class of spaceship. Oh. So that is currently, it's finished the manufacturing and assembly phase. It is currently in the integration and testing phase. So they have a few more internal tests to go through, and then they will proceed to their first science flights without people, and then finally start flying people. So that current timeline is early 2027, so. Joanna Pineda: That is so soon. Dr. Shawna Pandya: It is very soon. So if I'm back here next year, you may, I may have been a flown astronaut by that time. Joanna Pineda: Wow. All right. So how do we stay in touch with you? How do we follow you so that we can follow the journey and hear about the training and what you're eating and where you're visiting? Dr. Shawna Pandya: Yeah. I'm very online. So you can find me on most social media platforms at Shawna Pandya, S-H-A-W-N-A P-A-N-D-Y-A. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, and you can also find me online at shawnapandya.com. Joanna Pineda: Dr. Pandya, this has been [00:22:00] an honor for me. Congratulations and good luck and stay safe. Dr. Shawna Pandya: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Joanna Pineda: Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series. Please make sure to join us each month as we explore topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. We want to give a big thanks to our episode sponsor, Destination Canada, and be sure to subscribe to our other podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
#30
July 30 · 23 min
More Than Marketing: The Power of Strategic Communications
Recorded live at ASAE's Marketing, Membership, Communications + Tech Conference, guest host Nikki Golden, CAE, of Association Laboratory, welcomes Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP, editor-in-chief and director of content at the American Academy of Actuaries, for a conversation on the evolving role of association communications and marketing. Together, they explore how the two disciplines work hand in hand to build trust, engage members, and advance organizational goals. They also discuss the growing influence of AI, the importance of strategic storytelling, and why communications professionals must continue developing the skills needed to lead in an increasingly complex and technology-driven environment. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/7UaKw4Ycgqo Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Nikki Golden, CAE: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Association NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Nikki Golden, CAE, managing director and strategist at Association Laboratory. I'm also incoming vice chair of the Communications Professionals Council of ASAE. We're recording today from ASAE's MM&C Conference in Washington, DC, where association professionals from across the country and industry are gathering to share ideas, build connections, and explore what's next for the community. Today, I'm talking to Preeti, who is one of my fellow council members, and so we're excited to be here with you. Preeti, do you wanna introduce yourself? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, sure, Nikki, I'm so excited to be chatting with you. I am Preeti Vasishtha, and I am the editor-in-chief at the American Academy of Actuaries, and I'm also the director of content. I've had various roles in [00:01:00] communications throughout my career at associations in Washington, DC, so I'm really excited to be here. Nikki Golden, CAE: Great, and since we are at MM&CC+Tech, I'm wondering, what do you think is so valuable about this conference for the communications community? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. First off, this is my first MM&C+Tech. Oh, great. Yeah. I've been to ASAE's, but this time I was like, "I have to go to MM&C+Tech." So I think one of the things that when I was doing the research for my... I was planning my schedule, looking at all the sessions, and one thing that struck me, I was like, "Wow, I can go to this. I can go for this. This really speaks to me. This session really speaks to me." And when I was doing that, I realized this conference, this event is really built around our jobs of marketing and communications, right? Nikki Golden, CAE: And membership. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, and I'll get to that. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. You're right, and tech. Like, the three, like, let's- Yeah ... like the pillars of a, a stool. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. And when I was looking at the sessions, I wasn't even looking whether [00:02:00] it's marketing, whether it's tech, whether it's branding. I was just going, "Yeah, I can go to all of these." Yeah. So I think that's the power of this conference. I also feel the name represents all the four tools of an organization, right? We are the main characters here. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Right? This is about us. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: So I wasn't struggling to find meaningful, sort of, sessions. Say, "Ah, I don't know which ssession I should go to at this spot." So I think that was really great, and I know, Nikki, you've talked about this previously, but really, you can look at it as three or four distinct areas. Yeah. But none of us really is sticking to our lane. It's also interconnected. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah, very much so. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: I think MMC and tech gets that complexity of our lives, and it just showcases the reality of what we are doing in our daily lives. Nikki Golden, CAE: And it creates that commonality among these four different groups that really need to work [00:03:00] together in order to have- Agreed ... a solid engagement from your members. So I agree with that. Exactly. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: So coming to our favorite question, we've talked about this a lot. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And we can go on talking about this a lot. We talk of marketing and communications, so how would you, Nikki, what do you see as the differences between the two? Nikki Golden, CAE: I really think of marketing as really driving that brand awareness. There's a lot of product sales that are involved in it. And communications, I think, really manages that narrative and that storytelling relationship across all the stakeholders. You really can't have one without the other. I think we often talk about them as if they're in competition, but really they should be working hand-in-hand, right? Because you can't really sell a product or have a brand without having that storytelling aspect in the background. And I think oftentimes we are pitted against each other, and what I really like about, I [00:04:00] think, this conference and I think the way that the councils work together, is that we really see how much the two need each other, and where one kind of lane stops and the other one starts. I think people are tending to understand that a little bit better nowadays than they used to. But if I'm thinking about the way that we're going to be, how you think about which is which, conversions, sales, market share, that's a marketing ownership area. But building that, shaping public opinion, including your members' opinion, your stakeholders' opinion, really managing information that people need to know is really where communications sits. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, I so agree with you. So marketing really, it's so easy to quantify. It's here, right? Yeah. What are the metrics? But when it comes to communications, ah, it's a longer story. It's about the trust, it's about the storytelling. That's so hard to quantify. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. And, but you're right. But it's the backbone of that marketing, a conversion- Yeah oftentimes. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And without [00:05:00] marketing, communications can only do so much. So you're right, they go hand-in-hand. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Nikki Golden, CAE: So I think along those same lines, like when you're talking to people who are outside of the marketing and comms, I think, what do they often get wrong about that work? And then along with that, how does that misunderstanding really affect the way that the organization can move forward? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Such a great question, and again, I'm sure we can have a discussion. But I feel, you know, the most persistent misconception that I've felt is marketing i- is our work is about execution. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And that strategy is somewhere else. Yeah. It's like we are known as the newsletter people, the co- or they'll write something up, or they'll do social media. Nikki Golden, CAE: Or they're just putting Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah ... Ah, they're just putting out... Eh, it's easy. They'll just get it done. And we really are just doing sort of the hands-on role. I think our job, our role is so important to how an organization is [00:06:00] perceived both internally and externally, and that perception has a lot of consequences, right? Yeah. Whether your members are renewing, whether policymakers think of you as a credible source, whether the journalists will pick up your phone when you make a call, or even your non-members or the members you, people you want to acquire as members, they even really even know about you. So all of this sort of feeds into what we do. And your other question really was about what, what impact does it have on the organization? So the downstream effect of this is that marketing communications, we are brought in too late. Nikki Golden, CAE: Oh my God. We could have a whole session about that. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Told you. So it's like- Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah, 'cause you don't need to know until it's time for us to message. Why would you need to know at the front end of this project? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. Nikki Golden, CAE: Why would we want your insight into the stories that we've been telling, what the brand voice is, or any of even pricing for the marketing side? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. [00:07:00] You're right. And it's just a general example. The organization is working on a major initiative, major project, and okay, all the details are done, and someone at the end will say, "Okay, let's think about how we are gonna communicate this," right? And that's when we're brought in, when sometimes it's too late. But I think if we have a place on the table right from the get-go, the organizations make better decisions and wiser decisions. Why? Because we are thinking of the audience right from the get-go, right? Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah, 100%. I think when we do projects with our clients, the projects that are implemented well are when marketing and communications has a seat at the table for the entirety of the project, because they're not just handed a slide deck and saying, "Communicate this to the members." Yeah. They're able to think strategically about it. They are understanding the why and how decisions were being made all along the way, and so they're constantly [00:08:00] thinking about what is the story that we need to tell to get people to understand why we're making the decisions we're making. It's very hard to do that when you've just been brought in at the end of the topic and somebody gives you a highlight of what has been, like, 12 months of planning. And you don't have all the information, and so something gets lost. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah ... what's the message? Who is the audience? When are we trying to reach them? What is our success metrics? So those are some of the sort of questions that communications we guys- Nikki Golden, CAE: And how can we use our various vehicles to really drive home that message instead of just focusing on one place. Yeah. Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. So talking about audience, we mentioned that a lot in our discussion right now, Nikki. So how do you think we guys in marketing and comms can really help with that connection with members? What's our role there? Nikki Golden, CAE: I think our role is kind of that, a through line of the brand and the story that we're telling. I think oftentimes it's our role [00:09:00] to bring in what is the mission of the organization? And can we keep that as that North Star? And what is our strategic plan? Can we talk to the things that we are, we've learned through the strategic plan? What are the things that are impacting our members? How can we better communicate them to help them understand that we're aligned with their goals and their needs and their wants? Because I think about both marketing and communications, we're really the voice of the member, and it is our job to make sure that everything that we are putting out is communicating what they need to hear. And not talking, because I think a lot of associations do this, we talk about ourselves as, "We are giving you this." And our members don't care about that. They wanna know, "Is this gonna save me time? Is this gonna save me money? Is this going to teach me something new and put me ahead in my career?" And we need to do a better job of being that member voice at the table so that we can put them front and [00:10:00] center in any of the messaging that we're doing. And also, again, just think through the mechanisms that we have at our fingertips. Director of content is so great because that's that 2,000-foot view of, yeah, okay, that was a great magazine article, but did we miss a little piece of it? And can we do, you know, an audio interview, or can we make sure that it's posted on social media and driving people back to that? Whenever we have an education session, can we post people back to that article? And so really thinking more holistically about how all the pieces fit together, I think really helps with that engagement strategy. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: I agree. And you made a excellent point, Nikki, when you said, "We are the voice of the member." And I think one opportunity for organizations to use marketing and comms strategically is use words, use language that our members use. I feel like- Nikki Golden, CAE: How often do we get into such inner, internal jargon. All the time. All the... We have an acronym. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yes. I know where this is on the website. I know we call it XYZ, [00:11:00] but our members call it totally something else. Yeah. And that's where we come in. Yes. And say, "Hey, you know what? Members want to be seen and heard in our content, in what we are sending to them. So if we can use their language." Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. We're golden. Yes. 100%. We really do get lost in our own- Mm. ... internal speak. For sure. And sometimes that does translate to the website. Oh, yes. Where we make things harder to find because we're not thinking about it from the member perspective. Absolutely. We're thinking about it from the departmental, you know- Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Absolutely ... Nikki Golden, CAE: internal. It's internal. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah. Yeah. Nikki Golden, CAE: I feel like the elephant in the room at this entire conference has been AI, maybe for the last three conferences that we... ASC Annual, last year at CTAC. So how do you think AI is changing communications and marketing, and where do you see it really making the biggest impact? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: That is such a big question. We are dealing with some really big topics here. But yes, AI is the elephant in the room, and in my readings, and [00:12:00] even at the sessions here, I'm not surprised to hear that marketing and- Yeah comms is one of the top areas that has been most impacted. We are living it. Yeah. We're seeing it. Nikki Golden, CAE: So obvious- Because everybody thinks they can get rid of us and just use AI. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And I'll get to it in a minute, but really the lowest hanging fruit, right? First draft, summarizing reports, comparing two reports, seeing audience engagement patterns and data. So all that's really quick, really fast, and I think it's great for smaller teams- Yeah ... who struggle with bandwidth. I think that's fabulous. But what I'm realizing in my work as we get more and more AI savvy or just adopted more, is the need for pause. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Because just because something is done quick and fast, it doesn't mean it's great quality. Nikki Golden, CAE: And so just because you can use AI for something doesn't mean you should use AI for something. 100%. What did the keynote speaker say yesterday? She had sloth mode. Yeah. Which is where you really need to slow [00:13:00] down and take your time. Yeah. I totally agree. I think that people are very quick to jump in and use it for the easiest use case, but we really need to start thinking about it more from a perspective of efficiency. Can it help us do something we weren't able to do before? And can it take away maybe some of the manual work that we do? If marketing people and communications people, we're writers, so do we really need it to write for us? I don't think so. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Which is exactly my point. To me, coming from a content perspective, a lot of things that are AI written read the same. Yes. It's AI slop, right? It's that vague- Confident sounding Nikki Golden, CAE: And it's almost more work to double check the AI than it is to just write the first draft myself. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: I think that- Yeah ... for marketing and comms, it becomes even more important that we hold onto our voice. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And how do we stand out in a sea of content that just seems like it's reads the same, sounds the [00:14:00] same. So I think we really need to hold onto that. Yeah. So I think our jobs are becoming more about that. How do we hold onto our originality? Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. And the subject matter expertise too. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Absolutely, right. So I think that AI slop kind of land, I think that's... That human function, that judgment, is really very important. A couple of things that I've heard here, I thought I would share them with you, is there was a speaker from the American Marketing Association at the pre-con, and she said something pretty interesting. They have a study coming out, but she said that basically our jobs are already changing, right? But also now it's gonna start impacting our titles. So what they are saying is that we're not gonna have them so segmented, like a social media specialist- Right ... an email person. We are really looking at someone who has strategy. They can look at AI as a whole and see, where does it fit in our workflow, right? Nikki Golden, CAE: Just like email and websites did once upon a time, right? Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Once upon a time. So I know there's that little bit of deja vu [00:15:00] here. Nikki Golden, CAE: I know. But this is gonna solve all our problems. When have we heard that before? I... No. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Nothing ever does. No. And lastly, I feel that this has been going on in my career a lot. I feel like I'm continuously having to learn. It's not even trying to keep up, but I think things are moving so rapidly and evolving so fast that we are now in an environment of continuous learning, and I think that's a mind shift because it's usually, "Oh, I've done this course, I've done the program, I can move on, I've mastered it." Not really. Not in today's AI-driven world. That's what I'm learning. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. But I think that's also fun, right? It's interesting to think about new ways to work, again, that take maybe some of the more manual and, let's be honest, boring part of our jobs, and really be able to put some deep thought into a higher level of strategy. So I like that aspect of it. I love that. But it is a lot. There's a lot out there, and it's hard to evaluate, and it's hard to get people to talk about real use cases, [00:16:00] not just esoterically, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could do this?" But like, how are you actually doing this? And what is the tool of choice that you're using to make that connection between, like, all the places where you hold data? It would be great to have one tool that can just look through it all and give you some magic answers, but I don't think we're there yet. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, we're not getting there. Yeah. Every, every tool, AI tool has a different area, its strength. Yeah. And you have to figure out- Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah ... what goes where. Yeah. How do you use that? And just play around a lot too. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Which is fun. Uh, yeah. So we talked a little bit about this already, but what do you think, going forward in our roles, what skills are gonna be important, Nikki, in this AI world that we are living in? Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah, I think that's such an interesting question because I think we've been coming at it, again, I think a lot of the world is looking at it as a replacement for things, and I really think that it's going to require us to really think a little bit more [00:17:00] strategically- Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah Nikki Golden, CAE: about how we're spending our time, what we are doing- What works well, how we can automate some things that are maybe a little bit more time-consuming and manual, but that really move the organization's message forward. So I think critical thinking, I think strategic thinking, I think that kind of helicopter view of the landscape of all the activities and all the content being created by the association, how you can really make those connections between an article, a webinar, a podcast. That's gonna become so much more important as AI is kind of scooping up all of our data and we are moving from maybe an SEO world to, I forget whatever they're calling it. AEO. AEO world. And so really being able to make those connections to ensure that your content is being found. But I think the other thing is just being a real problem solver, [00:18:00] right? So being able to look at what are the things that are holding us back or creating friction for our members, and is there a way, like, how can we better get our members past that friction point or remove that friction point so that they can get where they wanna go. So I think about association websites a lot. We're all hampered by them. We all have so many resources. There's so much content on there, but it takes a real problem solver to look at it and think about, "Okay, if we can't get the money to revamp our website, is there a tool that's out there that can help us Get our members to where they need to go. Is there some sort of AI tool that can comb our website and our members can ask a question of it, and it gets them the resources that they need? I know that there's tools that are out there and do it. I think that's a low-hanging fruit. So being able to evaluate what the issues your members are having in terms of interacting with your content, and then finding the right tool and evaluating whether it is a good fit or not, [00:19:00] I think are gonna be some new skill sets. I feel like we've always had to evaluate technology, but I think it's going to be an even more important skill as we move forward in this kind of more technological bringing AI into that mix. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, and I completely agree 100%. I would also add, it's also knowing how to use AI. If an AI doesn't exist for that, like- Yeah a tool doesn't exist, how can you use, say, any of the AI tools that we have to find a solution to your problem? How can you put AI to fix problems that are being created by AI? I don't even know if I'm making sense, but it's like using AI to find answers, you know? That may not exist in another tool right now, right? Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. We were just talking about Lovable, which is an AI tool that I was recently introduced to, and one of the neat things I find about it, so basically it allows you to create [00:20:00] something that you would have had to otherwise have a coder do. Think about a landing page, a, a customer relation management system, something like that. But I think one of the things that it allows you to do, because there's such a disconnect often when tech and marketing or comms talks to each other, we're using a lot of the same words, but meaning very different things. I think that this tool can allow you to create something so that you can bring it visually to your tech person and say, "This is what I want it to look like. I want to be able to click here, and go to this thing, and I want this information to be on a dashboard that looks like this." And really just visualize, even if you're not gonna use the tool within Lovable that you've just built, even using it to visualize, to be able to better communicate to a, your technology person, your IT person, your designer person, what it is you are looking for. I think that just opens up a whole new avenue of actually successful technology projects internally that hasn't been there before. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: I think that'll reduce our emails by [00:21:00] hundreds, just the back and forth. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah, or like the remaking of things, or wireframing. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: I- So cool ... Nikki Golden, CAE: Those are so hard to think through, but this tool can actually help you see, "No, this is how I wanna be able to navigate," and now how do we build around that? Fabulous. Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yeah, Nikki Golden, CAE: yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: So I think we are heading to wrapping this up, Nikki, but I did want to talk a little bit about our amazing professional advisory council that we have. Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: And you're coming in as the vice chair. We are all looking forward to working with you, obviously. So do you wanna talk a little bit about the projects that we've done and that we are thinking of doing, a little bit of that? Nikki Golden, CAE: Yeah. For i- ... So the communications advisory council is basically responsible for any kind of resources or content for the communication professionals' collaborate world. And so we have been split up the last couple years, and I think it's worked really well. And we focus on three different content areas. So how do we bring [00:22:00] content into MMC plus tech? How do we bring content to ASAE annual? So we have one group that is focused on, at the beginning of the year, really s- ... what are strong submissions, and let's put together some really great sessions to propose. The second group has been working on articles. We have, in the month of June coming out, is going to be an article about AI and communications that two of our members of our council have written. And then we've been looking at podcasts. So you and I are participating here. I think we've had some other members who are participating in podcasts. So we are really looking to build on that next year. And everything that we do, we are posting in the communications professionals advisory section on Collaborate. And so I think we're just building a library of content. Hopefully we'll include webinars next year. I know that ASAE has been revamping their academy, and so we're hoping to build out a channel through there next year as well. Anybody who [00:23:00] is interested in any kind of content needs or resources, we are always monitoring that communications professionals Collaborate channel. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Yep. Nikki Golden, CAE: And are free to let us know what they're looking for, what is missing from their toolkit, and we can see if we can create something for them to use to make their lives easier. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: This is so exciting. Nikki Golden, CAE: It is. I- It's been an exciting couple years. Preeti Vasishtha, AAiP: Oh, and I'm looking, really looking forward- Yeah ... to next year. Yeah, for sure. So, so hopefully we'll do some great things again. And this was wonderful, Nikki. Nikki Golden, CAE: Absolutely. I'm so glad that you agreed to talk to me, Preeti. This has been really super fun. So thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world.
#29
July 16 · 27 min
Helping Associations Thrive in the Age of AI
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, recorded live at ASAE's Marketing, Membership, Communications + Tech Conference, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions welcomes Erica Salm Rench, chief marketing officer at Sidecar, for a conversation about helping associations navigate the rapidly evolving world of artificial intelligence. Erica shares why AI presents a unique opportunity for associations to compete more effectively, discusses the importance of educating staff and aligning AI initiatives with organizational strategy, and offers practical guidance on building AI literacy, selecting the right tools, and adapting to the growing influence of AI-powered search. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/3tyPPP_4yXU Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, partnerships director at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot agency, co-host of Rethink podcast, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode today is sponsored by Sidecar. We're recording today from ASAE's MMCT conference in Washington, DC, where association professionals from across the industry are gathering to share ideas, build connections, and explore what's next for the community. I've got the perfect expert with me today, Erica Salm Rench. She's really leading the association industry in all things AI. A lot of you might have heard of AAIP, their certification program. They're part of the Blue Cypress family. But before we kick all of that off [00:01:00] and get into all of those details, I know you're celebrating a special day today. I know we're here at MMCT. We'll get to that in a minute, but you're celebrating your 15-year wedding anniversary today. Erica Salm Rench: I am. Oh, yeah, that was a fun fact- Yeah ... that we shared right before. Yeah. So I will see my husband later this evening, which is great. He'll get some time with me. It seems like a fair trade-off, though, to be at MMCT. This is so fun. Sharon Pare: Yes. And then I have another thing. You were talking to me a little bit about your hotel. You know how when you travel a lot, I know for work. And everyone has their ritual when they get back to the hotel and what they do. Is there any things that you need to do? I'll give you an example. So for me, when I'm traveling alone in a hotel room, I always have to sleep with Friends on. Do you have something like that you do? Erica Salm Rench: You and I are two peas in a pod. I usually have Friends on in the background, or I always make sure I have snacks with me in my purse, because I feel like a lot of times the hotel snacks, they're not as healthy or nutritious as you [00:02:00] want them. Yeah. So I always have nuts packed or protein bars in my purse, and then I lay out my snacks so that I have something in the morning to wake up to. Sharon Pare: Okay. Yeah. I love it. Okay, so I wanna talk about MMCT, but before we get into it, you did win an award this year with AWTC, the Technology Leadership Award. Tell me a little bit about that and what that award meant for you. I was there. I was really excited to see you win that. Erica gives a great speech, by the way. She's a great speaker. Erica Salm Rench: Thank you. I was so humbled by it. It was so exciting. I was just overwhelmed by the award, and Rebecca and Carrie and Jill, and the amazing women at AWTC. They do such a good job of bringing women together and empowering them, and they truly filled a gap in the association space. It is [00:03:00] so cool to be a part of that movement, and I think it was just really emphasized last night at the AWTC Happy Hour. Sharon Pare: I was just going to ask- Erica Salm Rench: Oh my ... Sharon Pare: What did you think about that? Erica Salm Rench: You literally could barely move in that room, because everyone is so supportive of what they're doing, and women in technology need to be celebrated. I think about my daughter, and I mentioned her too in my award acceptance speech because- She wants to be a rocket scientist. She wants to send my little one to the moon. She wants to be an astronaut. Sharon Pare: I am all about that. Erica Salm Rench: And has there ever been a better time to be a rocket scientist for a lady, right? Come on, let's elevate these women who wanna be in STEM. Sharon Pare: That's amazing. Erica Salm Rench: So I just, it just was all that together, all of those feelings together, and it was an amazing moment. I was, again, so humbled, so thrilled, and it was just great to celebrate with all the 15 other women who [00:04:00] won awards as well. So what a great, what a fabulous night. Sharon Pare: So tell us how you stumbled into the association world. Nobody has a, "I wanna grow up and I wanna be in associations." I, I don't know. Maybe you did. Yeah. But did you stumble into it? How did you get here, and how did you say, "Hey, I'm gonna support the association community"? Erica Salm Rench: Yeah, so it, like you said, it happened a little bit by accident. So I guess I'll go, like, all the way to the origin story. When I was getting my MBA at Tulane, Mithun Nagarajan, who was the founder of Aptify and sold Aptify to Community Brands, it was when he was still at Aptify, and he came to speak to my class about what they're doing at Aptify, how they help associations, and how their purpose was to help associations fulfill their purposes. And that just was so cool to me. At the time, I was actually working for Tulane as well, so in nonprofit land, and I was just, I was moved by that, and I went to speak with him after he spoke to our class, [00:05:00] and so we, that was our first connection. And then fast-forward after I graduated with my MBA from Tulane, I went to run a big team in a marketing agency. We had the 1,200 clients, just the largest agency in the Gulf South, at least at the time. And my team did all of them, executed on all the digital services, so like everything on like SEO, repurposing content, paid online ads, web dev, you name it. And when Ameet and I then reconnected, like four years after I was at the agency, and he was sharing with me this opportunity to use AI to make some of the things that like essentially we were doing at the agency so much more efficient and effective and personalized, it was, it seemed like a no-brainer. I was like, "This is where the world is going." So that was almost nine years ago, and I was with Rasa for about seven years, and now I've been with Sidecar for going on a couple years. So I've been with the Blue Cypress family of companies for almost nine, [00:06:00] and this community's amazing. Everyone's so kind and warm, and I really do feel like I'm making an impact teaching people about AI, and that's what we do at Sidecar as well. So, you know, the rest is history. It felt like the right fit. Sharon Pare: And that's exactly what that award, I think, it really shows as an example of what you're doing for the community. So thank you so much for all the women in technology. Erica Salm Rench: Oh my gosh. Sharon Pare: And what I do wanna mention really quick is Amit and the Blue Cypress family of brands. And one thing that I know for 2030 is they wanna make sure these associations are going to be in that same realm of Fortune 500 companies when it comes to technology. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things that I think about all the time, and asked this on some of the podcasts, the Associations Now team knows that I've asked this before, but- Not controversially, but traditionally, associations are a little bit behind. Sure. And now with AI coming up to speed and associations starting to finally get into that world, do you think that associations [00:07:00] finally have this opportunity to be at the same starting line as their for-profit counterparts? What do you think? Sharon Pare: I know you think that we're finally there. We are not the dinosaurs that they say we are. Erica Salm Rench: Absolutely. There has never been a more leveled playing field than there is right now. Great. This technology can amplify the work that almost anyone does, and being part of the movement where we teach people how to harness it and how to leverage it is so incredible. Like you said, Blue Cypress's purpose is to make association groups as powerful as the Fortune 500 by 2030, and the part that Sidecar plays in that is, is like this chapter one for them, right? We're helping to educate people. So there are so many people that say, "I don't know where to begin. We want to, quote, unquote, 'do AI,' but where do I start?" Education is a great place to start because you [00:08:00] can speak the same language as your team, you can figure out which tools and which puzzle pieces fit in to help you amplify your mission and your purpose, because it's not just about AI for AI's sake, right? It's about figuring out which of these tools can be harnessed to push forward your organization, and that's why education is such a great foundation for all of that. Sharon Pare: And I think MMCT is obviously the perfect place for it. Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit. I know you had a session yesterday. Yeah. I want you to talk a little bit about your session, but are there any other moments and themes that you're hearing on the floor that are starting to become signals for where our industry is moving? Erica Salm Rench: Absolutely, yeah. No, I'm so glad you brought that up, because throughout my session, I always like to do a lot of live polling, like hand-raising, "Where are you? Where's your organization?" So I always start with, "How frequently do you use AI?" Starting with, "I've never touched the stuff," to, "I- I've dabbled," to weekly, to daily, to, [00:09:00] "I'm using agents regularly to help me complete tasks." And this year, I always do that, do that poll in the beginning of my sessions. This year, the number of hands that were raised for, "I use it daily and I'm building agents and automations," was overwhelming compared to the year before, and the number of people who raised their hand for just once a week was much less than it was, like I said, a year ago. So that was really cool to see. And in my sessions, depending on the content that I'm speaking about, I do like to talk about tools and show people practical applications in action. That's my favorite thing to do, 'cause I think that a thing you can put in your suitcase and take home for Monday morning to bring to back to your organization. So we did a lot of that. And I showed probably 20, 30 tools or talked about that many. And then I did something new this year where I talked about Okay, now we take these tools, we have them all in the back of our heads for what [00:10:00] is possible and what the capabilities are, because they're changing so fast. But you just need to know, generally speaking, what is out there and what's possible. So I said to keep that in the back of your heads. Now we're gonna talk about strategy. Pull up your strategic plan and figure out where these puzzle pieces plug in and how you can demonstrate to your board, to your leadership, to your peers, that these tools are actually working to push forward your missions and moving the metrics. So that was a fun moment. It was a new piece of content for me, but I think it was, I think it was impactful for folks. Sharon Pare: There was an article I read recently about what you called leadership malpractice, and I thought that was really interesting, 'cause usually you'll hear that in the doctor's office if there's, you know- Sure something bad happening around what they are doing. Tell me a little bit about that as it relates to AI and associations. Absolutely. So it is a provocative term. Erica Salm Rench: It is. I'll give you that. Sharon Pare: No, because I think that you're right. You told me. But it could be doing a [00:11:00] disservice to the association because of this. Yeah. So I want you to tell us a little bit about that also. Erica Salm Rench: Absolutely. Well, at Sidecar, we believe that educating your people and developing your people is a core part of pushing your organization forward, right? And in this time of such rapid change, it's unbelievable how quickly things are moving here. And in this time of rapid change, if you're not educating your people and bringing them forward on this technological journey, you're doing them a disservice. Yeah. Both with regard to inside of your organization and what's possible from inside of your organization, but also with regard to what they do afterwards, right? Realistically speaking, not everyone is a Reggie Henry, where you're doing amazing things for 30 years at one organization. They're gonna go out into the world, and you have to elevate your people, and the way to do that is through education and teaching them about everything that's happening. Sharon Pare: So you just mentioned about how AI is moving really super quickly, and again, most association professionals are not technology. It's [00:12:00] right that MMC added the technology part to kind of marry everything here. So how do you translate fast-moving developments into something a non-technical leader can actually act on this week? Erica Salm Rench: Yeah. It's never been a better time to be someone who's interested in technology, but maybe not classifying themselves as a technologist, because the barrier between imagination and actualization has never been smaller, right? You could ideate on something and go open your computer and build it for less than a cup of coffee, right? I built a dashboard for folks in the session yesterday, and it's just, I'm not a coder, right? And so it's so amazing that you can harness these tools and see them in action and experiment, and I always say the best- Place to start with AI is just doing it. You can't really learn it well until you try it, and I don't like to talk about tools usually until I've tried them myself. [00:13:00] And the barriers to entry to experiment with these things have never been smaller, which is so cool. Sharon Pare: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor Sidecar is on a mission to demystify AI for association and nonprofit professionals through education, events, and community. At the heart of Sidecar is the AI Learning Hub, a platform of self-paced courses built specifically for the association world and available for both individuals and entire teams. The Hub is also home to the AAIP, the Association AI Professional certification, a foundational credential that validates both the knowledge and the practical skills association pros need to lead AI initiatives with role-based learning pathways, also offering CAE credits. Beyond the Hub, Sidecar produces a wealth of free and ongoing resources, including the Sidecar Sync podcast, Sidecar [00:14:00] Scoop newsletter, a use case library of short real-world AI examples, and a vibrant online community. Plus executive programming for senior leaders who want to go deeper. And every fall, Sidecar hosts Digital Now, the premier conference for association leaders focused on the future of leadership, technology, and innovation. Whether you're just AI curious or ready to certify your whole team, Sidecar is where the association industry goes to learn AI. So you've been a big believer in bringing the whole staff along rather than just one AI person. What actually changes when an entire team is actually working on this together? Erica Salm Rench: Yeah, you can speak a common language. I always say taking AI courses together, almost like a book club, can be so impactful because even if it's asynchronous, like a book club, you're reading the book separately, then you come together to talk about it. And we've seen some of our clients do that, and it's [00:15:00] had such an amazing impact because then they can share ideas, and there's less resistance because everyone knows what each other are talking about. Even if you haven't done the things yourself, you still know about them, and you can speak the common language. You have the same foundation. And so oftentimes we hear and we believe that AI isn't necessarily a tech problem, because the tech has never been easier to use. It's, it can be a culture thing, right? You have to encourage people and lead them and make the playing field leveled Sharon Pare: So there's a ton of AI education out there. What does it get wrong when it's built for a general audience and it's not something that's association specific AI? Erica Salm Rench: There's so much out there, right? I get seven newsletters on AI, and you see the LinkedIn influencer version of what AI is, and all the, like you said, the TikToks and the tweets, and it's just overwhelming. So that's [00:16:00] why I think CAR is such a great solution for folks because it truly is the intersection of AI for associations, and all of the content we've built in our learning portal is specifically geared toward association use cases like event planning and membership growth and retention, and what member organizations need from their AI tools as opposed to just general AI learning. And I think that there's such an opportunity there for people to explore how this stuff can impact their specifically association lives and not just general learning. Sharon Pare: So outside of the learning, you think a lot about how people discover and trust information now, including how tools like ChatGPT and Claude decide what to cite. What should associations understand about staying visible and credible in that world? Erica Salm Rench: Oh, that's such a great question, and that makes me think about my agency days. So we did a lot of traditional SEO. So some of the foundational pieces of what SEO was, like, still apply. If you need to optimize [00:17:00] your image metadata, you need to optimize your page metadata, you need to tag your images, like, all of these data points that you have the opportunity to optimize so that you're telling the internet what your information is about still hold. They're still important. It's different because the, it's going into a much more aggregated AI response, but there's still a lot of opportunities to leverage some of the traditional components of SEO. That being said, there's much more now to think about, and there are a lot of trends to stay on top of in terms of what these LLMs are training on, and it ch- it changes very frequently. So I think that you bring up such a good point because all these associations, they still wanna be in the rich AI answers that are presented when someone is querying Google or Bing or what have you. So I'd say, first of all, stay educated. Keep on top of it because it is changing fast. But also educate your marketing teams that it's not just about the traditional SEO components anymore. You have [00:18:00] to expand beyond what, what your current knowledge is Sharon Pare: So I have a sidecar question Erica Salm Rench: for you Yeah, sure Sharon Pare: But out of the ChatGPT, the Claude, Grok, Perplexity, Gemini, do you have... There's so many. Some people use it all for different cases. Yeah. Sometimes it's work, sometimes it's personal, sometimes it's, "My nutrition, I need a personal trainer." Yeah. Do you have one that you particularly... Well, what is your, which one's your go-to? Erica Salm Rench: So we're... Oh, I'm a Claude girl now, and we're mostly a Claude shop, mostly because of the, the co-working feature. It's just- This is no plug to Claude This is no... Yes, I, Claude did not pay me for this particular, no. But Sharon Pare: maybe they will. Erica Salm Rench: May- Maybe they will. No, but the co- If you haven't experimented with Claude Cowork, which you need to work in their desktop app to experiment with, truly go, go work on that, because you can have it talk to your file structure, update files. It eliminates the copy/paste, and then it's also so amazing. The projects are so amazing for context. So go play with that. And then I still have not yet found [00:19:00] that- A better tool for image generation or text to image editing or video gen than, than our friend Gemini Sharon Pare: Nano Banana? Erica Salm Rench: Nano Banana. And Veo, Veo 3.1, I think they're at for the video. It's just unbelievable. The audio capabilities, the video quality, it's cinematic quality from a prompt. I play, it's, my kids and I play around with it sometimes too. It's, we made a tap dancing raccoon with Popsicles the other day, and it's, it's fun too, in addition to being, like, incredibly useful. Sharon Pare: Of course. Yeah. I always think about how much, you've seen the Will Smith eating spaghetti video, right? Yeah. And just the- Erica Salm Rench: Wait, no. Wait, no. I said yeah. I haven't seen the Will Smith Sharon Pare: eating spaghetti. Oh, you haven't. No. Tell us about that. Well, that's a question, and I don't know if our production team has seen it, but- Yeah ... if our listeners now, if you go and look at when AI first started generating this video of Will Smith eating spaghetti and what it looks like- Yeah versus what it looks like today, and it's only been such a short amount of time. Sure. Yeah. You need a, you need to Google [00:20:00] Gemini it because- Yeah ... it is just incredible to see how far we've gone- So far ... in just a few months. Yes. Look that it up, this video. Erica Salm Rench: Yeah, I have to. That's one of the things I did in my session too when I talked about imagery. I sh- pulled up an image of what imagery used to be a year ago, people with 19 fingers, and the words were all misspelled, and now it is just unbelievable with the written content within images, the human faces and just how clear and realistic and lifelike they are, and then being able to surgically edit those images just with a prompt makes life, like for a non-graphic designer like myself, just opens up the world of possibilities. Sharon Pare: So everyone worries about AI shrinking teams. We've seen it even recently in headlines. A lot of these big companies are doing these mass layoffs because they say that AI is going to really start taking over jobs, but you frame it a little bit differently for associations. Yeah. So can we dig into that a little bit more and why [00:21:00] with these associations staff shouldn't worry? Erica Salm Rench: We see it as more of an amplification of the work that you're currently doing, and this quote is not my own, but it is something to think about, and it goes back to the leadership malpractice phrasing. But- AI won't necessarily replace people, but people who know AI will replace people who don't, because employers are gonna look for people who can do much more with the minutes and hours that they have, and that's just gonna be the reality of the future. Sharon Pare: Yeah. All right. We're gonna move into our fast five. Oh, sure. All right. Okay. Okay, so there's no wrong answers, so say whatever comes to mind. It can be- Yeah ... personal, it can be professional. Okay. So what's a book, podcast, or account every association pro, I guess this one's a professional one, but if you wanna drop in a personal one, too. Yeah. What is one that they should follow right now? Erica Salm Rench: I am a sucker for business books. I love Good to Great [00:22:00] by Jim Collins. I, I also love Rockefeller Habits. I feel like they both lay such an amazing foundation for building and growing organizations. Sharon Pare: What is a tool you couldn't live without right now, and it doesn't have to be AI? Erica Salm Rench: A tool I couldn't live without... Oh, okay. It's the, it is the most simplistic technology in the world, but I'm gonna tell everyone to go sign up for an account right away. It's called Follow Up Then, followupthen.com. And Google has a similar sort of like Boomerang, and they're tooling it more. Sharon Pare: One more time. This is more for me. Erica Salm Rench: Followupthen.com. Okay. So what it is, instead of having a to-do list that represents things that you might need to do in three months or five months or once a year, you send an email to followupthen.com- Sharon Pare: Okay ... Erica Salm Rench: and it emails you at the precise moment that you need to do the task. Oh. And then if it's something like you need to snooze it, let's say it's something you do once a year, you do the thing that year, and then you hi- hit one year, like snooze button, basically. Oh. Grandma's birthday. Okay. It's [00:23:00] gonna send you an email on Grandma's birthday. You gotta give her a call, and then you snooze it. Or that once a month report that you need to send to whoever, you snooze that once a month. And that means that your to-do list only is the top three things that you need to actually get done that day, and everything else, you know that it's gonna be presented to you at the precise moment you need to do it. I'm obs- it changed my life. Sharon Pare: That's amazing because I, I talk to Siri. I don't want Siri to hear this, but I'm like, "Hi, Siri. Erica Salm Rench: Can you send me a reminder to do this?" And then I never get the reminder, and I'm like, "Okay." It's not a time-bound reminder. We are not gonna get it from Siri. Follow- Yeah ... upthen.com will do that for you. Now, they also don't pay me, but I think they should. Followupthen.com, if you're listening, I deserve a commission. Thank you. Sharon Pare: Something about the association world outsiders totally misunderstand. Now that you've been here for a decade, we've known each other for a decade, what do you think most people, when you're talking to them about, "Oh, yeah, I work in association," what do you think they misunderstand usually about the association world? I think the people just don't [00:24:00] know that- Erica Salm Rench: The association world exists, yes ... when you start then giving them examples like American Heart Association, American Marketing Association, something clicks. But I don't think people know about what sort of thought goes into making a membership organization tick or a community tick, and then you have to get the light bulbs to turn on. And I think something else that people don't, that associations don't realize is just, like, how valuable their audiences are to certain people. Obviously, I'm a sponsor of this conference. Sidecar is a sponsor of this conference. Being in front of this audience is so incredibly valuable, and I think that association professionals tend to undervalue, like, how valuable their audiences are to the outside world, and that's maybe why the outside world doesn't understand associations as much. Sharon Pare: Yep. And it's funny you mentioned American Heart Association, 'cause I know that I wouldn't walk into a dental office that didn't have that seal of ADA approved. People just forget about some of those things that- That are part of your health ... part of your health. Uh-huh. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Best piece Erica Salm Rench: of advice you ever got.[00:25:00] Ooh, to be a lifelong learner. Sharon Pare: Yeah. So this is truly the role for you. Erica Salm Rench: Yes. And yeah, I love teaching people things. I love learning. I feel, I a- I tell my kids all the time, I remember this poster in my 1990s elementary school classroom, knowledge is power. Knowledge is really power. If you educate yourself and stay on top of things and can speak about the hot topics, that's, that can elevate you so much and, and just really help you figure out your own path in life. Sharon Pare: So if you weren't doing this though, what would you be doing? Erica Salm Rench: Oh, I don't ... Oh, okay, fine. You really wanna know like my dream job? Yes. Travel food show host. Sharon Pare: Oh my gosh. Erica Salm Rench: That's my dream job. Sharon Pare: I would love to watch that. Erica Salm Rench: Yeah, wouldn't that be s- And eat, and eat, go to places, and talk to people about it, and teach people about food. Sharon Pare: So where's the one place you haven't traveled to yet to try the food that you wanna try? Erica Salm Rench: I really wanna go to Japan. Sharon Pare: Oh, yes. Erica Salm Rench: Really. H- Have you been? Five times. Five times. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I wanna go to Japan so badly. I [00:26:00] love, I think the culture is so interesting, and I'm a big sushi lover. I wanna eat sushi from its birthplace, of course. Well, Erica, Sharon Pare: this has been Erica Salm Rench: everything. Sharon Pare: Thank you Erica Salm Rench: so much for sharing- Thank Sharon Pare: you ... uh, your expertise, everything here at MMCT, everything on the AI front. I really appreciate you being here, sharing your time with us. Of course. Can you tell everybody where we can find you? Erica Salm Rench: Yeah. So please visit sidecar.ai, and we are your one-stop shop for all things AI learning for professional and trade associations. Our cornerstone offering is our AI learning hub, which you can buy at the teams level or at the individual level. And we also have like 200 level education through our Mastermind program. And come to the Digital Now Conference. Yes. It's going to be in DC October 25th through 28th. It's gonna be in DC. It is. Yes, we go- That's exciting ... yeah, we go back and forth- Yeah ... between Chicago and DC, and we're, it's a DC year. We're gonna be at Hilton Arlington Rosslyn the Key. We would love to have you join us. Come sign up. [00:27:00] Digitalnow.sidecar.ai. Sharon Pare: Awesome. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Thank you so much, Erica, for being here. Erica Salm Rench: Happy to be here. Sharon Pare: Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics that impact the association space, visit Associations NOW online at associationsnow.com.
#28
July 9 · 32 min
Sponsorships That Deliver Real Value
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions welcomes Brandt Krueger, director of industry relations and partnerships at EventMobi, to discuss the evolving world of event sponsorships and association partnerships. Brandt shares why many sponsorship models have remained unchanged for years and offers practical strategies for creating more meaningful, results-driven opportunities. The conversation explores the importance of understanding sponsor goals, moving beyond traditional sponsorship tiers, embracing thoughtful innovation, and designing event experiences that deliver greater value for both associations and their partners. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/NgdE7JR8lOc Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: Welcome to this episode of Association NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, partnerships director of High Road, a HubSpot agency, co-host of Rethink Association, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode is sponsored by EventMobi. Today, I'm joined by Brandt Krueger, and before we dig into sponsorships and partnerships, I know it wasn't exactly a straight line getting into associations for you. And what I would like to know first, and how I wanna get started is, I think you started in theater, and I wanna find out how you stumbled into the association space, and then we'll dig into all the other important stuff we wanna talk about today. Brandt Krueger: We could probably do a whole podcast on just that, but it's 'cause like so many of us, nobody comes in a straight line, right? It's always falling in, falling out. So yeah, came out of college with a theater degree in technical light; so lighting, so technical theater, so lighting, audio, building sets and props, and things like that. And was working for a theatrical lighting house, and was asked to resign at some point due to things we don't need to get into. But I took one name out of the Rolodex, and he was this kind of crazy, old hippie guy with long hair who did audio for these events. So I guess there's these events that people need audio and video for, and wound up working with him doing small events, and then got hoovered up by one of his major clients, who is one of the largest meeting and event production companies here in Minneapolis. So I wound up working for them for about 18 years doing lights and sound, and mostly audiovisual and production technology. But a sizable portion of their clients were associations. So already starting to get to know them in that context, in that space. Left them, went out on my own, did about 10 years of event technology consulting for a company I created called Event Technology Consulting, because I'm not very creative. So that consisted of a lot of trying to get people the right technology for them, a lot of asking questions, "What are you trying to actually do with it?" And then have worked my way around back into production again, working for another production company here. And then now, most recently, have worked my way into being the director of industry relations and partnerships for EventMobi. EventMobi is on the software side, so we're providing the mobile event app and the event management software that comes around it. But it all links together, right? This association through working with different types, different sizes of organizations, and then culminating in this new position with EventMobi where, when you and I were talking in the pre-show, I was saying I think 40% of our customer base is associations. And since then, I actually looked it up, and it's al- it's almost 50% of our business is actually with associations. So definitely have been stewing in this association world for quite some time. Sharon Pare: You absolutely have, and it sounds like you've worked in production, AV, event technology, your own consulting thing. Now you're on the partnership side and industry relations, too. So just given your experience and working with a lot of these type of member orgs o- over all this time, what has changed the most since you've started? Brandt Krueger: That's the funny thing about this industry, right, is it's a lot of the more things change, the more things stay the same. And so looking back over that career, obviously it's a very different environment, and we're doing things very differently, but it's always been very incremental. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just the nature of this beast that you only get one shot at it. Other than the very lucky folks who are doing a road show or something like that where they're doing the same program multiple times. There's this it has to be bulletproof mentality that is pervasive across the event industry, whether it's associations or corporate. That all is pretty much the same. And even special events like weddings and birthdays and things like that. You've got this, you've gotta get it right in one shot. So that makes us slow-moving, especially when it comes to technology. And so that's something that is part of my career as being someone who's enthusiastic about technology. It's constantly like pulling the rope a little bit. "Okay, guys, come on. We can do this. We can do this." But having to prove it and having to show the value, show the ROI, all of these magic buzzwords that we use, is really, it really is a struggle. And so the more things change, the more things stay the same, and that's part of why I wanted to come on is to talk about some of the things that maybe we haven't changed in a while and might be worth looking at. Sharon Pare: I was just about to ask, why is it that the event professionals, why do you think it is that they struggle to adopt those new ideas even when they know that change is coming down the pipe? What is it that you think they're struggling with the most? Brandt Krueger: There's a couple different reasons, and thinking specifically about the association space, a lot of it is because we've got situations where maybe someone is inheriting the event, or they're new to leadership. And so things get passed from person to person unless you're in one of the lucky associations where you're able to hire full-time staff. There's a through thread. There's a consistency of staffing and personalities from event to event. But on these, on smaller associations and chapters and things like that where people are constantly moving through, if you're lucky, there's a master doc that you can be handed off from, from president to president almost with a, some kind of ceremony of, "Okay, here's all the things you need to know," if you're lucky that. And so that contributes to it as well because we're copy and pasting. So that can be a big chunk of it is that we're just, "I'm sliding into the position. Okay, great, what did we do last year? Okay, great, let's do that again." But then also again is that second half is that bulletproof-ness, that we need to make sure that everything we're doing is grounded in reality, is grounded in safety. That's a big part of it as well, just feeling comfortable and feeling safe around the technologies and around the event design itself. Sharon Pare: So that's why a lot of these orgs are running that same playbook year after year is- Yeah ... it feels safe, it feels comfortable, and they're just not trying to step out of the box at all. Brandt Krueger: But unfortunately, the times they are a-changin', right? And so when we think about, obviously I was focusing on kind of what hasn't changed, but what has-- What hasn't changed is the purpose of associations, which mainly is education, networking, learning from each other, meeting your peers, getting better at your job. All of these things are core fundamental parts of being a member of an association. But now, if I wanna learn something, the first place I go to is YouTube, or now, like an AI buddy, right? Is, "Hey, how do I fix the toilet again?" So we, we, this is the way that we do things now, so I can get my education online, and especially with online events and things like that. Networking, we've never been more connected as a society, whether it's LinkedIn or social media or Instagram, all of these things. So how do we stay relevant in those scenarios, and how do we keep our membership up, and how do we keep our sponsorship up? These are real questions that associations are struggling with, and the answer, unfortunately, might mean we need to rethink some of these things. Sharon Pare: Are you seeing any signals or signs that some of these associations might be operating on, on autopilot? You said a lot of them are. A new president comes in, new executive leadership comes in, and they're just basically copy and pasting some of those prospectus that they're seeing. What are some of those signs that these associations are just, quite frankly, doing the same thing they've been doing? Brandt Krueger: Sometimes it's literally copy and pasting. I saw that all the time in the audio visual world. Are we forgetting a date here Sharon Pare: And there sometimes to change too? Brandt Krueger: Yeah, exactly. And hey, everybody's guilty of it. I've seen it in my own writing of oh, yeah, I'll just take what I did last year, uh, and then you forget to change a date. Exactly. That happens all the time because we're just, we're all busy and we're trying to shortcut things. But y- yeah, literally you'll see things copy and pasted from year to year. It's like that equipment doesn't even exist anymore. And so it's only natural that same type of thing would apply to sponsorships, would apply to exhibitors, that I think one of the biggest challenges of being part of an association is, especially when it's this transient site where you're moving in, you're there for a year, and then you move out of leadership or something like that. One of the biggest challenges is that's not your main job, right? So the f- the folks that are doing it, they're stepping up and being parts of c- of leadership of their organizations. The folks that are doing that, that's not their main job. And so frequently, planning events is not their main job. Again, unless you're lucky enough to have someone full-time on staff, these are people that are frankly amateur, and I don't mean that in as, as, as a negative, it's just the reality of the situation, event planners. And so that makes it even more, "Oh, here, what's the handbook? Okay, here's the handbook. Okay, great. Okay, great. I'm gonna... Okay, we need, it says we need a gold sponsor, a silver sponsor, a double platinum diamond trilithium sponsor," you know, all of those things that we need. And so it's just k- a little bit of the nature of the beast, right? Sharon Pare: So I wanna go back to you talking about how these associations wanna be bulletproof about some of the sponsorship levels that they're putting out there year after year. What do you think is the biggest disconnect between what the sponsors want and what the associations think the sponsors want? Brandt Krueger: All right. Now we're getting into the meat, right? So this is the good stuff. We're getting there. This is where I could soapbox for days. And I did first kind of start to notice these things in audiovisual and production world, where you would go to somebody, and I would always be, ask, the first question out of my mouth is, "What is the purpose of this event?" And they'd say, "It's our annual conference." "Okay, great. So what is, what's the purpose of it?" "It's a conference that we put on annually." Okay. And so you, you'd really, it'd be like pulling teeth to try and actually get to, "What are you trying to do here? What would you say you do here?" And, uh, and get to the meat of the matter. And so the same thing applies to sponsorship, that the biggest disconnect is not actually knowing what your sponsors want, what they need, what are they trying to get out of it? There may be a benefit to them of just, "Here's 10 grand. Please slap the gold label on me and put the logo on the website and call it good." That might be what their brand strategy is. But the biggest mistake is not slowing down and really asking that first. So don't start with the pitch deck of, "Okay, so we've got three sponsorship levels, and this is what it includes, and here's the bullet points." Start with the conversation. Start with, "Hey, I just wanna know more about what you do. I wanna know more about what the services you provide. I wanna know more about you as a person, as a marketer, a potential sponsorship person." And then what are you trying to get out of that? Because sometimes it is just okay with the logo, but sometimes it's, "See, there's this particular subset of your group that I really wanna get in front of." So great, now the wheels can start spinning. "Okay, how do we find a way to get that sponsor in the room with those people so that they can have a conversation? What do you think about a pre-show dinner with special invite-only VIP standing, and then we'll make sure that those people are in the room? Would you be interested in throwing $10,000 at something like that?" So that's where you can start to get creative and go past, and this is gonna be the through thread of today, is just blow past the gold, silver, diamond, platinum sponsorship levels and start really working with how do we make this going to be effective for the sponsors so that they get money out of it and wanna come back year after year? Sharon Pare: No, I think that's amazing because there's nothing more I hate than a vanity sponsorship or a vanity partnership, right? "Okay, great. Here's my logo," but then that's it, right? And I don't think there's true value or impact or ROI from anybody doing anything in that way, and I think we need to get used to doing some of these targeted things like a sidecar to an event, like these pre-show dinners and things like that. So I'm totally with you on that. But I guess my question is do you think sometimes the reason that these changes aren't happening is because the orgs are too focused on protecting their existing sponsorship revenue to experiment with some of these newer ideas? Brandt Krueger: Yeah, I think that's probably it. And the other thing, again, because it's not your day job, it's, you might not even have time to have these conversations. But it's so important that even if you have those existing relationships, right? There's no harm in settling, having say, "Hey, you've been great. You've been a great sponsor for the last five years. Can we go out to coffee, and go out for coffee and just chat about what are you getting out of it? What do you like? If you're comfortable with, that's great, but is there more that we can be doing together? Or is there less but more targeted?" Maybe this is, maybe that person is taking up a spot, so that's something that we have to think about as well, is retargeting. That they might be taking up a higher spot that could be absorbed by somebody else. They're not getting what they're needing. This person's at a lower tier level because you've already sold out the gold. They're not getting what they're getting. Is there a possibility of switching those two or adding tiers and things along those lines? Those are the kinds of things that start to materialize when you have those conversations. Sharon Pare: I wanna get into that in just a little bit, but one thing I wanted to ask really quick is if an association keeps running that same playbook year over year, what will typically happen? Brandt Krueger: Yeah. So at best, I think you maintain. So at best, I think you're just gonna maintain current sponsorship levels, and maybe you get to increase it every now and then, but don't increase it too much. It might not even be enough for inflation, because everybody's costs are going up. So it's like you might not even be increasing your sponsorship levels enough to even cover the costs of what last year's conference again came from. So at best, you're maintaining, but unfortunately, I really think if you're not having these conversations, the most likely outcome is that people are gonna start putting their money elsewhere. Having joined the marketing team at EventMobi, I'm already seeing those conversations, right? Of, "Oh, that would be great," but that's not our target market. That's not the ICPs. It's not all the-- Marketing loves their acronyms. We love our acronyms in marketing. And so be- more and more marketers are being asked to really show the numbers. Like, how many leads did we get out of this? Not just, "Hey, good, we got the attendee list," right? It's not just about the attendee list. It's gotta be targeted. How many of these convert? All of those kinds of things. And so it really is becoming more and more important to have these conversations to make sure that they're getting what they need out of it, because otherwise they're just gonna go find another place to spend the money. And maybe that's gonna mean you lose one of your top tier sponsors. Sharon Pare: Now that we're getting out of the conversation of doing the same thing that we've b- been doing for a really long time, and maybe suggesting that the association's not continue to sell the same sponsorship inventory all the time, what would you say are some of the other business goals that the sponsors are actually trying to achieve at events now? Brandt Krueger: Yeah, and I wanna be clear. Some, for some people, the tiered level is fine. That's exactly what they want out of it. They get to put their na- It's name recognition. Like Coca-Cola, they spend their money just to keep their name in front of you. You know who Coca-Cola is. You know what they do. But they just spend that money to keep that mind share, and so that might be enough. That might be part of the strategy is doing it. But sometimes it's about being, like I said, in the right room with the right people, and being more targeted, and being more conscious of exactly, so these people, they need to walk away with a nice spreadsheet that's not only the here's all of the people that attended, but here's the specific titles of people that are gonna be perfect for them so that they're walking away with what they need to show their bosses to, to get ROI. So it's getting into those specifics of what you need, and it might n- it might even be one person. We're sponsoring this entire event because I wanna be in a room with that one person who's going to be there. Right. However that happens. And so the rest of it doesn't matter. And so why are you then wasting your sponsorship real estate for someone who 's not even what they're interested in? So now you've got less room on the mobile app. You've got less room on, on the brochure or on the stage or wherever you're trying to do because you've got this logo that's taking up space, and they don't even care that logo is on there. That's, that is a spot that could've been sold to somebody else. So it's why it's so important to have these conversations. Sharon Pare: Now for a word from our episode sponsor. EventMobi connects registration, check-in, communication, and attendee engagement in one system. Built for associations, corporate teams, and agencies running complex, high-stakes events. Now with the new Badge On wireless solution, print badges instantly from anywhere in the venue. And with MobiAI Registration Concierge, AI handles attendee questions in real time so your staff can stay focused on delivering the event. Unlike enterprise platforms that demand big budgets and long timelines, EventMobi delivers professional capabilities with full branding control, flexible pricing, and optional on-site support. The control your team needs with no enterprise overhead. So we started talking about in the pre-show some of these anti-trends. I thought it was a really interesting topic, and I wanted to spend a little bit more time about this. But you were talking about some of these unique sponsorship opportunities that really nobody's talking about. And there were a few things that you were talking about that folks are starting to... I think it was the sponsorship of nothing and I wanted you to explain that a little bit before we start to go into some of the sponsorship trends that are starting to come about now. Brandt Krueger: Yeah, and so one of the reasons that we've been focusing on this at EventMobi, again, is just to help te- because we wanna m- we want our association customers to be successful, right? Because if they're successful, we're successful, and all rising tide boats, all of those kinds of good things, right? So we put together a sponsorship template that has a lot of these things of, "Hey, you might not have thought of this, and you might not have thought of this, and you might not have thought of this. If you wanna go tiered, here's the tiered. If you want a bunch of a la carte stuff, here's a bunch of a la carte stuff that you may not, may or may not have thought of." So we'll put in the show notes a link to this, to the sponsorship template that we've got in there, because it's got things exactly like that. So one of the ones that I've been shouting from the rooftops for years is this idea of sponsored blank space, that I just l- you know, when you go to these conferences, they just jam-pack them, and I understand why. You know, you need, as the attendee, need to go to your boss and say, "I'm going to this thing, so look at all these education sessions I'm gonna go to. Look at this big name speaker that's gonna be there." And so you're pitching it, so the y- you kinda have to do that. Sharon Pare: Right. Brandt Krueger: But what I love, and I've only seen this on a very rare occasion, is this hour of nothing is brought to you by tech. I would remember Shmoshmo Tech because sometimes you just need that hour to step away. Not a break where there's snacks or anything like that. Maybe, I mean- Mm-hmm ... you can have it there. But to be really clear, this is a time for you to go back to your hotel room, call your spouse, check your emails, hop all of the, just all the things that we don't have time to, or just sit in the sunshine. Go out of the convention center, find a sunny spot, and sit there for a half an hour, and then come back, and then let's do the last session before lunch or something like that. So I always see that as a tremendously missed opportunity, is that sponsored white space of just this amount of nothing is brought to you by Shmoshmo Tech. Sharon Pare: No, that's an incredible idea because I'm sure you've seen some of these TikToks and Instagram shorts, or is that YouTube shorts? You know what I mean, Instagram reels. Brandt Krueger: Yeah. Sharon Pare: And where they're showing that you really only have five seconds to get from one place to the next. They jam-pack everything between that 9:00 to 5:00 time. You have five seconds to go to your hotel room to just decompress, and then boom, you're out again, on your dinner for the rest of the evening. But doing that sponsorship of nothing, I think that's a really incredible idea just to give you a few minutes, like you said, to go into the sunshine or catch up on a few of those work emails so you can focus on the educational sessions that are actually happening during the conference. So my next question is…what's a sponsorship trend that everyone seems really excited about? So this is gonna be a hot take from Brandt. But what is one everyone seems excited about that you think is a little bit overrated? Brandt Krueger: I'm gonna take that question and I'm gonna twist it a little bit. I'm gonna do my best- Twist it up ... poli- do my best politician impersonation and answer a different question than the one that you asked. So I think it's, again, not so much a hot trend, but I think it's something that, that's, that it's a missed opportunity that people- Okay ... can and should be doing. That people are doing this for- to be sure, but I think more people need to be doing it as well, and that is when you're looking at the various parts of your technology, again, I came up through technology consultant, one of the things that always drove me nuts was that people would just take whatever was offered for free, and I get it. And then that counts as a sponsorship, right? So you've got a mobile app, you've got your event registration platform, you've got your audiovisual provider, you've got your speakers, all of these things, a lot of organizations are leaning into, "Oh, they'll do it for free? Okay, great, you're on the agenda. Oh, they'll do it for free? Okay, great, you're our audiovisual company. Oh, they'll do it for free? You're our catering company now." Like, all of those things. But what I would encourage people to do, and this I think would make a massive improvement in the quality of our events, because we do it in the industry, we do it in association, then we do it in corporate, like this is across the industry, is get the sponsorship to pay for the thing you actually want. So do the research, find out what you actually need as far as event registration software, as far as badge printing software, as far as your mobile app, as far as your audiovisual company. Get the people, get the s- the suppliers that you want to work with, and then get them sponsored. So it's the same, it winds up being the same amount of sponsorship money, only you get to have a better quality experience for your attendees, you get to have a better quality experience as a planner because you're using the tools that you want to be using, and then that opens up the possibility to have more sponsors. Believe it or not, many associations struggle with, "I w- I'd love to have more involvement from the sponsors, but I don't have anything to offer them because the gold package is 10, the silver package is like all of those kinds of things." So this gives you an opportunity to bring more people into the fold, and bring even more people that can be headline sponsors, audiovisual sponsors, a mobile app sponsored by, all of these kinds of things. So that's my little twisted take on what you asked. Sharon Pare: No, I love it. So essentially, if an association wants a mimosa bar in the morning at 8:00 AM, get a sponsor for it, right? Brandt Krueger: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep, exactly. That's-- And i- if-- and the more sponsors, the better in that aspect, right? So maybe you can have a catering sponsor, but then it's also sponsored by somebody else. Sharon Pare: So getting some of these sponsors are gonna help subsidize really the operating cost of the event at the end of the day too. So we gotta be creative. Yep. What is something that you think associations should stop selling tomorrow? Then tomorrow, what is something that you could suggest that they need to think twice about? Brandt Krueger: I'll be honest with you. So I, the experts tell me that there's still a place for gold, silver. If you haven't figured it out, I'm not a fan of those kinds of things. It- but I, again, go back to this idea of paying attention to what will actually improve the quality of your event, paying attention to what will improve the quality of the event for you, for your attendees, for your internal stakeholders, for your sponsors, for your exhibitors. In the pre-show, you and I were talking about my studio setup, and I was like, "This didn't just magically appear," right? It's like, I didn't just go out and go, "Okay, I want this mic, I want these lights, I want this computer." I built it up over years, and I just kept cycling through. Okay, start with audio. What's the best microphone I can afford right now? And then go to lighting, and then go to camera, and then go to can I make my internet faster so there's less stutters and stops and things like that, especially during pandemic era, like that was huge. Right. And then keep cycling through. So I would say, if you can't afford to have all of these conversations, I get it, like I said, we're busy, we're volunteers, we're passing through, we don't have time. Maybe try and get one a year. So what can we do to improve our sponsorships this year? 'Cause that's what we're talking about today. What can we do next year to improve the quality for our exhibitors? What can we do the next year to really spice things up, do something different for our attendees that's gonna be consistent, not just this year, but every year- Yep Can we change? And then just keep cycling through those questions over and over again every year. Never get complacent. Never just, "Here's the playbook," and it's done. It's evolving, it's a living document that gets passed on from person to person. Sharon Pare: So really taking a cr- maybe not crawl, walk, run, but a crawl, walk approach to every year, and just adding just a little bit of something that year to pizzazz it up just a little bit and offer something new to the sponsors. Okay, that's awesome. Brandt Krueger: Yeah. Oh, and just a real follow-up on that, like the advantage to doing it that way is then you're not throwing all the spaghetti at the wall at once, right? So you'll be able to measure, did that make a difference? So if you're not doing, blah, scattershot, everything's everywhere, let's change one thing this year on our sponsorship package. See if it moves the needle. Let's change another thing. Okay. What happens? So just take your time, be incremental, and then you'll be able to see whether or not it's actually moving the needle Sharon Pare: No, that's really great advice. Now, I know that you've recently attended IMEX, maybe the past week or two. Were there some themes or conversations that you were hearing in the hallway, eavesdropping in on at the exhibit hall was-- or even in the sessions? Was there anything that just kept coming up over and over that maybe we need to think about a little bit more? Brandt Krueger: First of all, it was a great show. It was so much fun getting to see folks that I hadn't seen in a while, 'cause I did this- Is it in Las Sharon Pare: Vegas as well? Brandt Krueger: Yeah, it will be in Las Vegas. Oh. This was the Frankfurt show. Yep. So we were at the Frankfurt show just two weeks ago. It'll be Las Vegas again in the fall. Right. I'm a huge fan of IMEX. I love that program. It's mainly destination-focused, so it's talking about where you are gonna take your annual conference. Mm-hmm. But the tech pavilion has been getting bigger and bigger. So a couple of interesting trends, and I've been trying to actually follow up to see, okay, was this my imagination or was this real? And, uh, once they got done with the show, like half of IMEX, they take their two-week European holidays and all that kind of fun stuff. Love you guys. And so what I felt like I noticed was more pavilions on the show floor, and so this is something that I think folks can look at. Okay, wow. It is talking about-- So, like, Italy would have a 40-by-40 booth, but then would have all of these little sub hotels, destinations, cities, things like that all throughout the Italy pavilion. Okay. Now, that in itself is not new, but what seemed new was there was more of them and bigger. So that, that Italy 40 by 40 expanded into two 40-by-40s that, that spanned across an aisle and was just this massive pavilion and with all of these subcontractors, or not contractors, but sub, sub-exhibitors, I guess that's what you'd call them. And then there was a French event tech pavilion of French event technology providers. Okay. So it seemed like there was more of that, and I think that's, I think that's a very usable steal for association folks is, like, how do we get more people into our trade show at a lower level? So you could sell that 10-by-10, I'm gonna make up some numbers here. You could sell that 10-by-10 for $10,000, but you could sell it to 10 people for $2,000 each and make more than you were gonna make on that individual- That's right ... 10, and bring more people into the fold at a lower price point. So you might be able to start getting people in at a lower price point at a lower lift for that kind of thing. Sharon Pare: Yeah, that is very interesting. It almost sounds to me like going to Epcot and getting all the countries just in one spot, but at a just- Yeah ... smaller scale. Brandt Krueger: Yep, absolutely. Sharon Pare: All right. And I think we're wrapping up here a little bit. Brant, it was really amazing to have you on, to have your expertise, to have your sound effects, too. We might have to ask you to come back just to do some sound effects- Just some sound effects ... like you mentioned. But is there just one thing that you wanna leave any of our listeners with today? If there is, do you have Brant's final thoughts before we get into the rapid fire? So it's not so final, but pretty final. Brandt Krueger: It's a semi-final. The semifinal thoughts. Semifinal. Honestly, and this has been throughout my whole career, again, I touched on it as I was talking about consulting, is like, if you wanna get the right suppliers, if you wanna get the right software, the right speakers, the right vendors, it's all about communication, and that goes in all directions, right? There's just nothing better than actually sitting down with attendees and asking them what they wanna get out of it. So you wanna find out what you can do to improve, don't just send a survey. Take 15 of them out to coffee, and really take the time to have face-to-face, as much as possible, conversations about what it is that they enjoy, what it is that they, they like, what they don't like, that you're just not gonna get from a survey. Same thing with your exhibitors. Same thing with your sponsors. Same thing with your internal stakeholders. I'll be honest, it's why I love, if anybody's familiar with the event design canvas, it's one of those things that if you do it right, it takes a couple days to do, but even just thinking about it helps you think about what do each of your stakeholders need? What do the exhibitors want? What do the sponsors want? Just having that mentality, I think, is a fantastic way to go through your event career, is just constantly reevaluating with all of your stakeholders, 'cause it changes. It changes from year to year what's gonna be important, and just having those conversations over and over again, and never letting it just be done, I think is a big part of it. Always evolving, always changing. Sharon Pare: No, thank you so much, and I know that you've spent many years helping folks just navigate this change within the industry, albeit maybe slower than some, but we're getting there, right? And it's baby steps. It's that crawl, walk, run approach, and soon enough our associations and membership organizations are just gonna be doing spectacular events, especially with EventMobi involved. Before we get to our rapid fire, where can people connect with you and learn more about EventMobi? Brandt Krueger: Now, I, for me personally, I always say the best way to connect is on LinkedIn. So just reach out to LinkedIn. I'm the only active Brandt Krueger that's on there. There is another guy whose thing hasn't been active in 15 years, and LinkedIn has a policy of never removing, right, accounts. They never- So it's okay. That guy isn't, so just do a search for me. I should be the one that pops up. And then of course, EventMobi.com is the easiest way to find us there. Sharon Pare: All right, rapid fire. I only have a few. Brandt Krueger: Okay. Sharon Pare: So my first one, do you pull in or reverse into a parking spot? Brandt Krueger: Always front first, yes. Sharon Pare: Always front first. Yes. Sharon Pare: Uber or Lyft? Brandt Krueger: Uber or Lyft? Uber. Have you Waymo'd? Sharon Pare: No, have not had that opportunity. Sharon Pare: Hard or soft taco? Brandt Krueger: Soft taco, no tomatoes. Sharon Pare: And still or sparkling water? Brandt Krueger: Ooh, I like both. Depends on my mood. Sharon Pare: It depends on the mood. I love it. Thank you to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents Industry Partners Series. Again, Brandt, thank you so much. I think I hear some applause in the background. Brandt Krueger: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Sharon Pare: That came right from Brandt. Just visit him for SoundEffects. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com. Thank you, Brandt.
#27
June 25 · 35 min
Why Slower Marketing Can Drive Stronger Member Engagement
Recorded live at ASAE’s Marketing, Membership, Communications + Tech Conference, guest host Brittany Lancor of PropFuel sits down with best-selling author and MarketingProfs CCO Ann Handley to discuss the power of “strategic patience” in a culture obsessed with speed. Handley challenges associations to focus on meaningful engagement over vanity metrics, communicate in members’ own language, and prioritize authentic, human-centered messaging. She also shares practical advice on creating more effective email communications and explains why AI is best used to uncover insights and support strategy—not to replace the human connection that drives engagement. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/nKZs2BI23bQ Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Brittany Lancor: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I am Brittany Lancor, senior marketing manager of PropFuel. We are recording today from ASAE's MM&C conference here in Washington, DC, where association professionals from across the industry are gathering to share ideas, build connections, and explore what's next for the community. Today, we are so excited to welcome Ann Handley, the world's first chief content officer, best-selling author, and CCO of MarketingProfs. She just delivered the keynote address on the first day of this conference, so we are going to ask some questions. The first question I have for you is where did you get your suit? This is amazing. If you are watching from home, you have to look at this suit. It's wonderful. Ann Handley: So you're asking who am I wearing? Brittany Lancor: Yes. Ann Handley: Is that the question? Yes. Yeah, first of all, [00:01:00] thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here with all of you, be here with you. So who am I wearing? Today I am wearing Alice + Olivia, and I'll tell you, my biggest stress today was not even the keynote, it was, do I include the bow? Brittany Lancor: I love it. Ann Handley: Or do I leave it off? It's detachable. Brittany Lancor: The bow was the great choice. Ann Handley: So I don't know, I went for it, and I like the way it kinda waves around on stage a little bit, Brittany Lancor: like- Yeah ... I'm prancing around and doing whatever. Yes. It looked great. Yeah. Okay, next question. Oh, yeah, I guess the questions now. Who are you? Help us, like give a quick introduction of who you are, help the audience understand who we're talking with today. Ann Handley: So yeah, obviously Ann Handley, chief content officer of MarketingProfs. I've been in marketing for a million years, a million dog years. That was like a million plus years. I founded a company called ClickZ ages ago, which is one of the first sources of digital marketing at a time when digital marketing was a sort of brand-new thing, and from there founded MarketingProfs, and I've written a few books about marketing and content, particularly Everybody Writes, which is a [00:02:00] Wall Street Journal bestseller. It's been translated into 19 different languages. The whole ethos of that is really helping marketers, not just content marketers, but all marketers and all businesses really figure out, how do we communicate in a way that's authentic and real, and uniquely us? And honestly, that's a message that we need more than ever now- Yeah in the age of AI. So yeah, author, entrepreneur. Speaker, obviously, and yeah, just friend of Brittany. Brittany Lancor: Yeah? Yeah. And did I see you're also a dog mom? Ann Handley: Oh, yeah. Most important thing. Yeah. Yeah, my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, his name is Augie. He is a stage five clinger. I love him so much, and he loves me just even more. Because love is just that. Do you have a dog? Brittany Lancor: I have two. Ann Handley: Oh, you do? Brittany Lancor: Yes. Ann Handley: What kind? Brittany Lancor: They're mutts. One's a terrier, blue heeler mix. Ann Handley: Oh, wow. Brittany Lancor: And the other is a pit bull terrier mix. Ann Handley: What are their names? Brittany Lancor: Archie and Pepper. Ann Handley: Okay. Yeah. This is the information that you're here for, people. This is. Archie, Pepper, and Augie. Just- Brittany Lancor: Yes ... Ann Handley: remember that. Brittany Lancor: Keep that in mind. Yeah. Okay, [00:03:00] so I am actually so excited to talk with you about all of the things related to the keynote. Ann Handley: Yeah. Brittany Lancor: So MM&C is Membership Marketing and Communications. And we also have tech as a part of this conference, right? Yes. So the marketing piece of things is so relevant to the audience that's here and the audience at home. So your keynote is about strategic patience in an, in this instant results world. We're so ready for things instantly, right? So for association who are under pressure to do more, and move faster, not always with more resources, how do you decide what should move fast and what is okay to move slower? Ann Handley: Yeah. So that's such a huge issue right now. So here's the deal. So marketing, and I think business in general, has a sort of addiction to speed, right? And it's like we always want to go faster from a customer or from a member standpoint. We always want to move them from, from the first time they hear about us to signing up for us [00:04:00] faster and faster. It's very much a treadmill that we're on. And it's easy to say, "Oh, that's because of AI." AI has just tossed rocket fuel on that impulse. But the truth is that marketing and business has always had this sort of addiction to speed. But you can look at anything that we do. It's like we always think that faster is better. And so my whole philosophy is that with my experience of being in marketing for 25 years, is that faster is not always better, and that I'm challenging the convention that, that we need to always think about the fastest way to do things because sometimes the fastest way is not the best way. Yeah. And so, so in answer to your question, the idea of, you know, when should we move fast and when shouldn't we, that's essentially what my whole keynote unpacked, and it comes down to how, to a couple of things. Number one, how we're measuring marketing, how we're measuring the impact that we have. And I think we need to think about it a little differently 'cause a lot of marketing is measured according to very specific [00:05:00] metrics that look at results, how fast we were able to do something. How did, did people click? Did they download? Did they join? Did they renew? And yeah, all that is important, but there's a lot of other smaller signals before that, that I think if we pay attention to, can start to inform the very question that you asked, like when do we move fast and when do we move slow? To give you a really specific example, one of the things that we don't look at enough in marketing is not the sugar rush metrics of those sort of did they do this or did they do that, or did they act, but before that, like the emotional resonance of it. You know, are we connecting with people who we wanna connect with? Do they feel inspired by us? Not just do they wanna buy, but what kind of language do they use? And so in the keynote today, I shared a framework for how do we move away from those sugar rush metrics of marketing and into something that's more, more substantive that measures the resonance of our programs. And by the way, like I just, I feel a need to mention this because I'm in marketing, but I have a new book coming out [00:06:00] around this topic in February of 2027. It's called ASAP: As Slow As Possible, When to Take the Long Road in a Shortcut World. It's about this very topic of marketing, but also it's broader than that because I think especially where AI is encouraging us to... Not encouraging us, like demanding in a lot of ways that we move faster. I think at the same time- The opposite is also true, right? That there are moments when we need to specifically step away from it, slow ourselves down, and just say, "Okay, here's a situation that matters to us as an organization, or that matters to me as a person." Brittany Lancor: Yeah. There's so much to unpack there, though, too, and I think the other piece of it is there are certain things that are going to take time. Yeah. So, and my background is marketing as well, so all of this resonates so much with me. Yes. There, the s- it's the slow game, right? Yeah. So, you wanna go as fast as possible, but like you had said, you need to figure out how to make a message resonate with an [00:07:00] audience, and sometimes that takes time. Ann Handley: And the thing is, this is not anti-speed. I love speed. I'm addicted to it just as much as anybody else. And so it's not a slowdown all the time, uh, but it's when speed becomes the only point that we get into trouble. And so I think it's that distinction that you make. Yeah, sometimes do more, move faster, but sometimes know when to pull back. And that knowing when, through either permission or recognizing those moments, is essentially what I'm, I've been obsessed with lately. And honestly, I've been thinking about this for ,no joke, 10 years. I first started talking about this at an industry event in 2016. On the main stage I talked about it, and I saw it then as very much like a marketing thing, which is content marketing specifically, around how we're creating content, how we're connecting with others, like how we're thinking about building audiences. I saw it then in a very tiny way, but the more that I started thinking about it, and the more that I started seeing signals from elsewhere, and then AI comes in and throws rocket fuel on this whole situation, and I'm like, "Oh, gosh- Yeah ... [00:08:00] now is the time." So yeah, you could say I've been writing this book for, for 10 years, and it finally is happening, Brittany Lancor: So amazing. Congrats. Ann Handley: Thanks. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out. Brittany Lancor: I'm really excited too. So one of the things you mentioned, veering away from one of the questions that I have next. You mentioned signals. And again, that's another thing resonating with me, because that's something that's been popular in the association space is like, what are some signals that you look for in the marketing side of things that stand out to you? Ann Handley: So yeah, a couple things that I think we ... Sometimes they're the very smallest things, too. For example, some signals that, that I think about, they fall into three different buckets, I guess I would call them. One would be the impact that your work is having. The other thing is the echo that it has, so the sort of resonance that it has. So just some very specific ways of thinking about these three things, of these things differently. So one of them is, just to get really elemental and basic about it, would be looking at things like a scroll depth on an email newsletter, looking at the response rate on an email newsletter, for [00:09:00] example, or any of your programs or any of your assets. And by that, it's somebody literally hitting reply and writing back to you. Another way to think about what the response rate is call- what I call the OWBR, O-W-B-R, or the Open to Write Back Rate. That's specific to email, of course. And encouraging those conversations. So an email newsletter becomes less about the news and more about the letter, more about how do we actually connect with somebody? How do we actually build those relationships? Because the thing is, people don't decide to join or engage with you because they've heard about you. They decide to join or engage with you because they feel a connection. And so, I think it's important to surface those connections, and we don't do a great job in marketing at that now. And the good news is that AI can help you surface some of those things. Yes. But yeah, it's, that's a very specific example. Another is if you're looking at echo, for example, how do we think about that? What are the signals we look for there? Look at the language that your members or would-be members are using, [00:10:00] things like inspired, things like reassured, things like I feel smarter. Some specific words that you hear either through customer service or sales conversations or when people write back to you. And by the way, this, I'm, we're talking about this a- specific to associations, but I do this all the time, like even as part of my own email newsletter. Yeah. I look for these moments because the job of my- newsletter is to not just sell stuff or convince people that they should buy from me, but instead to nurture that relationship. And so I think it's just thinking about your programs and your assets with a, in a different way. Again, to get away from tho- that sort of, the metrics matter, like the basic metrics matter, but at the same time, think of them more, more broadly and put the two together to get a fuller picture- Brittany Lancor: Yeah ... of how your programs are resonating. Yeah. I like the echo effect. Yes. I think that, so prior to working in my current role, I'm on the vendor side now, but I worked for associations in the Chicagoland area, and [00:11:00] one thing I've noticed associations get really stuck on is this idea of talking in their own voice instead of leaning into the voice of the member. Yes. And there's so much power to that, 'cause as you were talking about, people wanna feel like they belong, they wanna feel like they're a part of something that, like, is suitable for them. And one way to do that is to talk how your members talk. Yeah. Instead of get into this really fancy, like, using jargon that they just don't use, how can you talk with your members in a way that they're speaking? And that's all about asking them questions, getting feedback from them- Ann Handley: Yeah ... Brittany Lancor: in their own words, figuring out, just having conversations with them. Yeah. Ann Handley: Yeah. How are they referring to certain things? For sure, and I think there's easy ways to do that. A lot of times marketers or businesses will say to me, "Yeah, but we don't have the staff to do that. We don't have the people to do that." And I'm just saying, look at what you're already doing. Mm-hmm. Choose those moments that are gonna, that are gonna resonate the most and have that sort of echo quality to them. Yeah. And as you say, just tweak things a little differently. Using social media, for example. Maybe instead of having a post [00:12:00] come from an association, because the reality is, no shade, but nobody wants to have a relationship with an association. They wanna have a relationship with their people. Think about your director, executive director, your board, like all of those people become these sort of ambassadors for your message. Right. Having, right, like people, that is your frontline. It's not on social, for example. Yeah. It's not your association itself. And then using very human language. Yes. One of the things that I do a lot is I will post something on LinkedIn. I write like a person, because I am a person. Yeah. Spoiler. Real human being here. Just saying, just saying. And then I look to see in the comments. To your point, like how are people talking back to me? What are they saying in a way that can inform maybe how I think about things? Nor are they agreeing with me. I'm not talking about the people who just write, "Great post," or who robo-comment Feedback with AI. Yeah, but the people who just add comments in their own voice, and I look at the, not so much the substance of the comment, although, like I look at that [00:13:00] too, but just the words they use, the language they use, the way they describe things. You can get a lot of sort of intelligence from that. Yes. And so, yeah, that's just a simple way of doing it. And the other thing I'd say too is to your point about speaking in a more, like human voice, like one of the easy things that I think associations can do is have your communications come from a person, like an actual person- Yeah ... not just the association. Yes. Right down to the, like small Brittany Lancor: things, because signals, right? Ann Handley: Yeah. The email address that you use. There shouldn't be noreply@association.com, or even newsletter@association.com. Yeah. It should come from Barbara or Philip or Jasmine or anybody who happens to be, give someone the role of hosting at your newsletter is how I think about it. Yeah. Almost like an emcee. And there's lots of evidence out there that the more personal your newsletter is, the more, the better it'll perform, the more you resonate. And so just some simple things like that, some simple practical things that I think you can do [00:14:00] differently- Brittany Lancor: Yeah ... Ann Handley: to inspire the, a, a deeper level of connection, and ultimately commitment. Brittany Lancor: Yes. And as someone with a large newsletter list- Yeah ... I feel like that's good feedback for the people who are listening. Ann Handley: I'm telling you, it's like people always say to me, like I have about 50,000, 51,000 people on my email list. Amazing. And people are like, "How did you do that?" And yeah, I did that. I just, I'm like, I'm just my own weird, nerdy self. Yeah. And I just write to one person at one time is how I think about it, because think about the person who's receiving your newsletter, right? They're not sitting in an auditorium full of people, so it's not dear friends, it's dear friend. It's one person, one time. They're sitting on their couch, scrolling through their phone. They're sitting at their desk on Monday morning maybe, whenever it is. But literally picture them in your mind, and think about the one problem or issue that you're trying to help or solve Brittany Lancor: for them- Ann Handley: I'm telling you, it changes the way you communicate. I love it. Brittany Lancor: I'm doing a session tomorrow, and one of the questions is, like, how would you approach this communication- Ann Handley: Yeah ... Brittany Lancor: [00:15:00] if you were speaking to, if you had an association of one person? If you were speaking to one member, what would that look like? You probably wouldn't send an email from membership@association.org. You would send it from brittany@association.org, 'cause I wanna build that connection with you. And I think a really good takeaway for associations in this aspect would be so many associations have volunteers that they can lean onto. These people volunteer actively, they raise their hand, they wanna be involved. Yeah. You can lean on those people to ask them to review communications or even build some communications so that you're speaking in the voice of the member, Ann Handley: which or could you give them a guest editor once a month or whatever. It's one of your members. It's a way to surface them and reward them for their volunteer. You can obviously help them- Yeah ... with that, but yeah, I think there's lots of ways to do that. The pushback that I sometimes get is, "Oh, we're gonna make a superstar out of this one person, and it'll be more their brand than our brand," and do not worry about that. I'm just like, "I'm gonna look right at you, and I'm gonna say do not worry about that. It's [00:16:00] not gonna happen." The New York Times, for example, massive list, massive brand. Yeah. Their morning news, their Morning Morning Edition newsletter comes from one person, who writes a specific letter to me as I'm sitting on my couch scrolling through it, or in bed or wherever I happen to still be, just looking at the day's news, and it's one person. It used to come from a guy named David Leonhardt, and he was the... But when The New York Times made the shift in 2020, it was directly in response to the pandemic, because they felt like they needed to give a sort of human face at a time when we were all very disconnected. So yeah, 2020 they made this shift. The New York Times did. And they installed David Leonhardt as the emcee or the host of the newsletter, if you will. David has since left. He's since gone on to do his own thing. He's left The New York Times completely. I don't even know where he went. You know why? 'Cause I didn't follow David Leonhardt there for The Times, and don't worry about it. Brittany Lancor: Yeah. Ann Handley: You, don't worry about it. You get it. Brittany Lancor: Just don't worry about it. [00:17:00] The viewers at home. I think this segues into another question I have for you. So you highlight judgment and trust- Yeah ... as the real keys to connection. Yeah. What would you say are a few practical ways that associations can earn trust through their communications? Especially when one thing you're, you will hear consistently from associations is that members tune out from messages, because they're overwhelmed with this noise of everything else that's going on, or this idea that- Even one specific association sends me too many emails as a member. I think you've touched on it a little bit prior to sending from a person rather than a department or an organization. What other ways? Ann Handley: I mean, it's a little controversial, but send less. I think no one is ever sitting around and thinking, "God, I wish I had more email. Why don't I get more email? I need to sign up for more email newsletters. I need to sign up for more stuff." No one is ever thinking that. No, not once. And I think doing less with more intention is one way to do that. Obviously, there's a [00:18:00] point where there is gonna be diminishing returns, but I think we have this sense that this sort of treadmill that we've been on, we send three days a week. Look at your data, look at what is actually resonating with your audience, and lean into that. And maybe you don't need to send, yeah, three times a week, or if you do, maybe you reserve it for those moments when it's really important and it's really important messaging. So yeah, so I think send less. I know Jay Schwedelson is here. He's your email guy. He and I don't necessarily agree on this 100%, 'cause I think Jay is like, "Just keep sending. Just keep hammering." And I'm like, "Dude, I love you, but no." So Brittany Lancor: sorry, you gotta have that balance in life, right? Ann Handley: Yeah. Because again, I think if you're going to take the time to build those connections, you make your email newsletter or at your email worth opening, and so that takes a little bit of time and effort. Like for example, I send my own email newsletter every fortnight. That's every two weeks if you're not in the UK, which of course you're not. But every two weeks, and I don't use bi-weekly, by the way. Do you know why? Why? Because bi-weekly means either- [00:19:00] Yes ... twice a week or every... What is that? So anyway, I send- Every other every fortnight, which is every two weeks. It's a very specific word that means only that, and the reason I do that is because I don't have the capacity, just the ability to write more frequently than that, and that's truly okay. And do you know what people say to me a lot of times on sign up? This is the other thing, actually, this goes back to your question about how do you build that connection. Yeah. All right, let me finish my thought, and then I'll h- Okay ... circle back to that. Sorry. As a- No, Brittany Lancor: We never know. We're getting messy. That's okay. The best way to do it. Ann Handley: So people write back to me and say, "I appreciate the fact that you only send every two weeks." Because again, people don't need more email. Sure. So that's a big piece of feedback that I do tend to get. Again, like echo, right? I'm looking for that. I'm like, "Okay, that's good. That means that my stuff is resonating." And two-week cadence, totally fine. Fortnightly m- cadence, totally fine. If you learn nothing else today, learn that fortnightly needs to, needs our love. Brittany Lancor: Learn that fortnightly means every two weeks. [00:20:00] Ann Handley: Exactly. No. What I was gonna say to you is when you're asking about the ways that we can strengthen our relationships with our, through email specifically, one of the things that I think is vastly undervalued is when someone does raise their hand, sign up for your email newsletter, they are giving over your email a- their email address. Yeah. That is a moment where you will never have more opportunity for just stronger connection- Yeah ... with that person, that one person. And so what do you do with that opportunity? 58% of brands out there, not just associations, but all brands, send a welcome email. Which is crazy. 58, that's a huge opportunity. And I think what's important there, though, is don't just send a welcome email, like, "Thanks for signing up. We appreciate you. Love, comma, association." I think instead, that's your opportunity to say, "Thank you so much for signing up. Welcome." Either, "Here's what to expect," or yeah, "Here's what to expect. Here's how often you'll hear from us." Brittany Lancor: Yeah. " Ann Handley: And then one thing I'd like to know from [00:21:00] you," and make it a super simple ask. Have them hit reply right back to you, right at the beginning, and it can be something silly. I have a colleague who has his own email newsletter who asks, "What's your favorite restaurant in your city?" And he literally keeps a database that when he visits that city, he knows what restaurants to go to. Amazing. That's a fun sort of question, but how do you not answer that? If you got that email, you would be like, "Oh, I gotta tell them about-" Something, whatever your favorite restaurant is. Yeah. Davio's or whatever. I have to just say that my questions are, I ask two questions when you sign up for my email newsletter, and if you haven't, you really should, just so you can experience this. Yeah, test it out. Test it. That's the way. I ask two questions. The first question is, how did you find me? Yes. Brittany Lancor: Why is that? Always good to know. Ann Handley: Yeah, it's really helpful because I like to know who is referencing my work, who is suggesting me. Maybe it's from my talk here today, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's they just saw me randomly on LinkedIn. It helps me understand who's recommending me and what [00:22:00] kinds of people, or h- or how they're finding me. Well, it's like what's working and what isn't. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then the second thing is I ask them, "What did you hope to learn here?" So sometimes people will give me really insightful things that I can then build future newsletter editions around. But, "What did you hope to learn here?" Super easy questions. And sometimes people are like, "I don't really need to learn anything. I just wanted to say hi." And I'm like, "Great." Yeah. So- See what this is about. Exactly. So I send everybody that sign up. About 62, 63% of people who get that initial welcome email from me specifically open it A s- a smaller subset, maybe half that, so maybe 30%, something like that, write back to me directly and say, "Here's how I found you. Here's what I hope to learn." And then this is key. This is key. I always write back to them. I always say, "Thank you for telling me. I love Jay. I really appreciate the fact that Jay is recommending me." Yeah. And then I say, "And thanks for letting me know what you hope to hear, learn here." Super [00:23:00] simple. Do I have that automated? No, I do not. Could I? Yes, I could, but I don't want to. This is, again, one of those as slow as possible moments, because it's more valuable for me to understand who's recommending me and to start that relationship with a specific subscriber. And I'll tell you, Brittany, people are always blown away. "I can't believe you did that." Now, immediately, people here listening or watching might be like, "We don't have, possibly have the bandwidth for that. We don't have time for that." Here's what I do. I set aside a half hour a week- Mm ... and I batch respond to all of them. I read them all, and I respond to them all directly. That's it. It- half an hour a week. Yeah. Half an hour a week for basically nurturing my audience, and that, to me, is just a choice I've made. It's, you'd be surprised at how many people won't write back. It's not as big of a lift as I think a lot of people think. Brittany Lancor: No. And for those who genuinely don't have the bandwidth because they have so many members, there are systems that exist. It's incredible how relatable this is to something like [00:24:00] Profitwell. Literally, the, what I like about this email newsletter example is that the onboarding for an email newsletter, so if an association has an email newsletter, the onboarding for that email newsletter is an opportunity to connect with a prospect- Yes and learn more about what they like and what they need and what they're interested in to help them get connected to membership, right? You can also directly translate this into what a new member onboarding process looks like. Yes. So when a new member joins, just like when somebody joins the e-newsletter list, most associations are very quick to be like, "Here are all the really great things that we do. I hope you'll do something with it." And our spiel is always, what if you just ask them a question, and A, help the organization understand what are they looking to learn from you? Yeah. What's most beneficial? And then you can build trust with each individual member at a larger scale, because you can then send them on a journey. We help automate the process, if that's what somebody would choose to do, because if, again, if it's at a larger scale. But [00:25:00] there's so much benefit to really asking a single question- Yes ... and learning from them, and then, again, building trust based off of showing them a response that tells them, "Oh, we hear you. Here's how we can help you." Ann Handley: Yeah, and I think the key is ask a question that is stupid easy to respond to. Yes. Don't ask them a hard question. No. It feels like homework. Just ask them a dumb, fun question. Yep. Not that my questions about, how did you find me and what do you hope to learn? Those are solid questions, but it doesn't take a lot of thought. They can just write back and say, "Uh, I don't know. I want to learn about association marketing." And I'm like, "Great." Yeah. I talk about that once a year, so you know. Brittany Lancor: Yeah, and then the response is, "Great. Here's something directly relevant to what you're looking for." Right. And that's that trust. Yeah, and if you were, Ann Handley: if you could actually build it out into more of a nurturing engagement path, right? Right. Where you could say, "Oh, you're looking for this? Here's a resource specifically for you." Yeah. I don't do that because I'm functioning at a different level, but an association could absolutely do that. Brittany Lancor: Yeah. Ann Handley: Yeah. Brittany Lancor: And if you ever get to a [00:26:00] point where you want to do that, we can help you. Ann Handley: Okay, there we go. This is perfect. Great. We turned this into a sales opportunity Brittany Lancor: for me. For you. For all of us, everyone's invited. So you also talk about communication, that all of these are really connected, right? Yeah. So you talk about communication that helps members feel seen and valued and really eager to belong. So what does that look like in terms of, I guess we're getting specific to what we were just talking about, but what does the tone look like? What do content choices look like? What channels are you using in a way that doesn't feel too fake or marketing-y- Ann Handley: Yeah ... Brittany Lancor: So to speak? Ann Handley: Yeah. I don't think there's any magic to this. I think you're probably already using the channels that you need to use. I think it's how you show up that makes all the difference. Sure. And if you're using social, use it as a discovery channel, number one, but also using it as a way to show your voice, showcase your people. Start that connection with a potential member or your existing member so that they will, they will be part of your [00:27:00] group, or they will renew. Keep that as an ongoing thing, or volunteer, whatever your conversion metric is. And so yeah, I think it's just thinking through each channel and figuring out, how do we use this more effectively? And if they're not working, dropping them. You don't have to be everywhere. You just have to figure out the ones that are gonna resonate for you. The one that I wouldn't not use, is that right? Wouldn't have not u- I would use, would be a w- We could simplify that a little. Yeah, say the one that, I know. It's funny to be in communication and just like- ... this is complicated on purpose. I wouldn't not use. This does serve a purpose though. The emphasis of that. Yes Email for sure. Email is... You have sessions on email at ASAE. It's, I will, I don't want to say I will die on that hill because I find such joy in, in email. This is weird enough to say, but it's so true. I hate that phrase, die on this hill. I want to celebrate on that hill. Yeah. Because email is actually- Live on that hill for a little bit. I want to live on it forever. I want to pitch a tent and have my dog there and- Brittany Lancor: Yeah, build a fire, because it's a great... Invite Ann Handley: all the people there. [00:28:00] Email is an amazing channel, and I think always will be. But I think that most of us are not using it well. And so- Yeah ... if you're gonna start anywhere, I would start there. And then secondarily, social as a discovery platform. Like I said, a lot of people are using social as a conversion platform. That's really where it falls apart. It's not a conversion platform. It's a way to, to get people to find out about your organization, to feel like they can know you, get to know you a little bit more, and then ultimately raise their hand to opt into something, to volunteer to be part of your group in one way or another. Yeah. A lot of times I think people use social incorrectly. Also, it's, it's really a way more of a discovery platform than anything else. Yeah. And then just everything else that you're doing. You know, like just webinars or podcasts or whatever it is that you're doing, like always just look for those moments where you can add in that sort of a human element. Brittany Lancor: The human touch. Ann Handley: Yeah Brittany Lancor: Yeah, I 100% agree. I think oftentimes people are saying, like, "Email is dead now," and it's [00:29:00] not. No. It's just that it's been used inefficiently. And so how do you use it in a way in which- Yeah ... you are still relevant? Yeah. The messages that you're sending are still relevant to- Yeah ... the individuals. Ann Handley: Exactly, and I, I think another thing that you need to keep in mind about email is that, yes, I think email is 100% still relevant, but the bar has gotten a little bit higher- Yeah ... for email because of AI. For example, we're already starting to see, some of us, uh, already have our inboxes managed by robots. Not everybody, but I think eventually that's kind of where things are headed, where what's gonna happen is your in- your email arrives in somebody's inbox, and a robot decides, based on the parameters that you set, but a robot will decide, "Okay, this gets your attention. This is something that I can just handle on my own, this autonomously. This is something I add to your calendar," whatever the case. But there's another level or layer between you and a would-be member or your existing member right now, and that's really important to be [00:30:00] aware of, just the way that AI is changing the inbox specifically. And so you might think, "That means that email is dead. Like, how can we possibly break through?" The thing is, it used to be about deliverability. The metric used to be we need to be able to get into the inbox. Deliverability was the big issue. Now, it's really about selection. It's about someone choosing to hear from you. That only adds pressure to, or adds opportunity I should say, not pressure. It's opportunity to do all the things that we're talking about, like having it come from a real person, making sure that you are connecting with one person at one time, making it feel like, "Oh, this is something that I wanna hear from Brittany," or, "I wanna hear from me," or whoever. It only makes it more important that you- Yes think about how personal and how inherently just emotional you can make something feel. Brittany Lancor: Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. I feel like we could go on for- We can ... Ann Handley: forever. What are you Brittany Lancor: doing? Let's- Yeah, sorry. Yeah. We're gonna just join this podcast series all the time. Okay, one last question because- Okay ... we had, we were just talking about AI. Yeah. So this [00:31:00] one's pretty relevant. I feel like some associations are still a little bit hesitant to jump on the AI bandwagon. Yeah. They're still trying to figure out what it means for membership and marketing and communications. So what would be a smart starting line for AI that still protects the human voice- Yeah and the, the voice of the member, right? And what are some common missteps that you're seeing for people that are using AI? Ann Handley: So, yeah. Okay, let's start with the missteps first, which kind of informs the rest of the question, but I think the worst thing you can do is to start experimenting with AI and having it write all of your communications for you, and then editing it. I am vehemently opposed, violently opposed to that perspective for a few reasons. Number one, because we are in the communications business. We are creative, we are storytellers, we are communicators. And so the idea that you're going to outsource that skill that we inherently possess and have nurtured for so long to a robot, I [00:32:00] am completely just, no, just don't. Is it fast? Is it efficient? Yeah. But again, it goes back to our initial question here. That's not the point, right? Don't outsource those original first drafts. Any first draft that's important, don't outsource it to AI, number one. I see it all the time. Don't outsource any, even the first draft of a social post, of an email newsletter, of anything. Can it help you with a landing page? Sure. I don't care about that. But I think it's important to choose those moments when it's smart to involve AI because it's faster and efficient, it can write a landing page like nobody's business. But also, don't outsource those moments that are important moments of connection for you and your audience. So that's the first thing. In terms of first steps, getting on board, I think the best thing is to just, you know, play around with it. Just see what it can do for you, and then be very intentional about how you use it. Saying no to AI is also an option. Yeah. Not all the time necessarily, because it is truly useful. For example, the framework that we were just talking about a few minutes [00:33:00] ago There's, AI can be very helpful at surfacing some of those metrics for you, at surfacing some of those emotional moments and signals that are, that were hard to get to before. In fact, in my keynote, I shared a prompt that you can use with AI to draw out some of these insights. That's an incredibly useful use of AI. Being, but using generative AI, so that's on the data side of things, but using generative AI to, to write for you, I think when it's important, it's important to say no. And yeah, I think it's important to, to have a distinction. What are we using AI for? Are we using it for data? Are we using it for generative AI, for writing, or are we looking for it us- using it for forecasting? For forecasting and for data management, great use of it. Huge help, especially at an event like this where the technology folks can help you figure out how to do that. But on the generative AI end of things, like using it for writing or generating content, I'm just, I'm not a fan, especially for the first draft. It's helpful after you write a first draft to then ask AI, [00:34:00] "Would this resonate with somebody who's a would-be member who has this particular personality who is looking for this?" And how do you know all that? It's because you've been paying attention to all the other signals that you're getting. Yeah. So I think it can be helpful there. It can help you tweak language. But I think just in terms of generating it wholesale, just not a fan. Brittany Lancor: Wonderful. Yeah. Anne, it's been lovely. I feel like we need to have a part two, because we only got through half of the questions that we originally had. But thank you so much. I feel like you had some absolutely wonderful insights for everybody, very specific to associations, too. It's, for-profits and nonprofits are not so different after all, so. Not so different. Ann Handley: I know. Brittany Lancor: Thank you, Ann, for your time. Thank you. Ann Handley: You did wonderful. Brittany Lancor: Thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals just like this, discuss the challenges and the opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world.[00:35:00] Thanks, everyone.
#26
June 11 · 30 min
Milwaukee's Rise as a Meetings and Culinary Destination
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions sits down with Leslie Johnson, chief sales officer at Visit Milwaukee, to explore why Milwaukee is gaining attention as a premier destination for meetings and events. Johnson discusses the city's recent growth, driven by the expanded Baird Center, a thriving culinary scene, and major events that have showcased Milwaukee on a national stage. The conversation highlights what sets Milwaukee apart from larger convention cities, including its walkability, affordability, authentic neighborhoods, and collaborative hospitality community. Johnson also shares insights into the city's "Flavor Era" campaign, new entertainment and cultural developments, and the experiences that make Milwaukee memorable for visitors. From lakefront festivals and iconic attractions to local dining recommendations, the episode offers a fresh look at a city that's quickly becoming a favorite among event planners and attendees alike. Check out the video podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwbNMxvH6nc This episode is sponsored by Visit Milwaukee. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Paré, partnerships director at High Road, a HubSpot agency, co-host of Rethink Association, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode today is sponsored by Visit Milwaukee. Today, I'm joined by Leslie Johnson, chief sales officer at Visit Milwaukee. Leslie, could you give us the highlight reel and tell us what you're all about before we jump into it? Leslie Johnson: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sharon, for having me today. Sure, yeah. I'm Leslie Johnson. I'm the chief sales officer of Visit Milwaukee. I've been there just a little over six and a half years. Prior to getting into the space of the DMO side of the industry, I grew up in the hotel and restaurant industry for my entire career. Started with Hyatt Hotels, then decided to get into the restaurant side of the [00:01:00] business. I worked for Capital Grill restaurants, which has ultimately led me to Milwaukee. I had the ability to open that restaurant in Milwaukee a little over 21 years ago. And then while in Milwaukee, I made a few career changes. I worked for Marcus Hotels and Resorts, where I really leaned into learning more on the hotel operations. I was a general manager, director of sales and marketing, and then also extended that career into the resort side of the business and worked for Geneva National Resort, which is a very predominantly golf-focused organization. And then that's what led me to Visit Milwaukee. So there's my quick, 30-second elevator speech on my career. Sharon Pare: I love your 30-second elevator speech, but there are two things you left out, but I'm gonna do them for you since you didn't- Okay ... put your little accolades in. But since you've been on Visit Milwaukee, in 2022 you were recognized as the Milwaukee Business Journal Women of Influence, as well as most recently in 2025, the [00:02:00] International Association of Exhibitors and Events Outstanding Marketing and Salesperson of the Year. So woo- Good job, Leslie Leslie Johnson: Thank you. Both of those awards were because of the relationship and partnership that we have within our organization and the marketing team, and the Women of Influence award had a lot to do with how we came out of COVID and the strategies that we put into place to really stand out and really elevate Milwaukee onto a different level than it had ever been elevated on before post-COVID. And then same with, yeah, the IAE award was all of the great things our marketing team and our sales team has done since the expansion of our convention center in 2024. Definitely. Those are team awards. Sharon Pare: For sure, but you have a little bit of each aspect of that business, and I think that's a lot of the changes that Milwaukee is seeing right now, which I know we're about to dig into. I will say, and you're probably like, "Oh, we hear this too much," but one of my favorite shows growing up was That '70s Show. Okay. So every time I was th- I was thinking about Milwaukee, I keep thinking about that end credit, when [00:03:00] they're like, "Hello, Wisconsin" in the theme song at the beginning. Yeah. That's what I keep thinking about as we were getting into this podcast. But- Leslie Johnson: But usually it's Laverne & Shirley and Happy Days, so I'm glad that you went '70s Show. Sharon Pare: Okay, we're changing it up a little bit, right? And I think Milwaukee's changing it up, too. And I know that's what we're gonna talk about today, and that's really the theme around our conversation. I know Milwaukee's really having a moment. I know we're gonna talk about the expanded Baird Center. Some Michelin recognition, what, which I know is always a big deal no matter what city you're in, but especially in somewhere like Milwaukee. And the growing culinary and cultural scene. So Leslie, from your perspective, what do you think is driving that momentum right now? Leslie Johnson: It's so great that Milwaukee is absolutely having this moment. It- it's something that's been in the making for so many years. We're just now seeing the results of a lot of the, you know, the investments that have come together. With the expansion of the convention center, the incredible culinary growth that you just mentioned there, too. And a lot of this comes in tandem [00:04:00] with hosting such large events like the national, with the RNC that we hosted in '24, which seems like forever ago. As well as a couple of industry events, hosting Connect Marketplace. It really helped us step confidently into our identity, and I really think it gave us the ability to give the exposure of our city to people that have would never have had an opportunity or, I don't want to say a reason, there's always a reason to go somewhere, but- Yeah ... oftentimes as we know in our industry, the first time that they're gonna experience a city is through a meeting, through a conference. They had to come for a reason, and then they fell in love with the city, and we heard that over and over again every time that we host any sort of industry event. And so it's great to just see that our name is being recognized nationally in so many other ways, and it's giving us that ability to have Michelin also- Sharon Pare: Yeah ... Leslie Johnson: recognize us and say, "You know what? They do have a very strong culinary scene there in Milwaukee, and we need to go see what it's all about." Sharon Pare: So let's talk about the Michelin stuff now, right? [00:05:00] I think that there is this campaign that Milwaukee's running right now called the Flavor Era, which I think is a really cool concept. Can you share a little bit more about when you say the Flavor Era, tell us a little bit more about that. Leslie Johnson: Sure. Yeah, so the Flavor Era campaign is really Milwaukee embracing who we are in a bold and confident way, right? When we talk about flavor, we mean everything that gives our city personality, from our culinary scene to our neighborhoods, our festivals, our people, and honestly, the way visitors feel when they're here. We're not trying to just copy another city. We've leaned into what makes us distinctively different, what makes us Milwaukee, and I think that authenticity is really, wow, what today's traveler and meeting planners are looking for. When you think about the culinary scene and look at the culinary scene in Milwaukee, we are not a chain-heavy city. And I, as I talked about earlier, I brought a big chain to downtown Milwaukee, and it was a challenge 'cause Milwaukee is, "No, we don't do chains. We have some amazing creative chefs here in Milwaukee." And Ca- Capital Grille did a great job of [00:06:00] incorporating themselves into the market and really embracing the local culture and the people to build that restaurant to what it is today. We've stayed true to that, and from the culinary side of things, but yeah, it's more of it's like that swagger. We were always that Midwest, like shy, like we're not overconfident. We're not gonna speak loud and proud. We're just gonna be here in the corner, and Milwaukee's completely changed that tune. Sharon Pare: Yeah. You started getting into this about the flavor, right? Yeah. And you know, how, what it means for meeting planners, and I know a lot of that is centered around the food and some of that, the local experiences, the local culinary experiences. But is there a little bit more to that flavor that the meeting planners and the attendees will love about Milwaukee that you wanna share? Leslie Johnson: I think for planners and attendees, you know, flavor really means the experience that feels memorable and is rooted in the place instead of the intangibles, right? Like, in Milwaukee, attendees are not just gonna be sitting in a room, meeting room all day. They're gonna be walking around the lakefront between sessions, discovering incredible restaurants, experiencing our festivals [00:07:00] and really interacting with our hospitality community, which is genuinely welcoming individuals. I hear that all of the time from planners of, "We love everything you have about your city. You have all the tangibles," but it's really the people and the way they make you feel and how welcoming they are that they are just so appreciative when they come to our city. Sharon Pare: That's awesome. And I think that being able to visit a city where it's your first time and you're not really sure what to expect, and finding hospitality that's above and beyond, a lot of the times that's what brings you right back to that city, right? So- Leslie Johnson: Right. The connections you make and the things that you didn't get to experience. Exactly. Sharon Pare: The Leslie Johnson: little things that you did that you're like, "I want more of that." 'Cause you come for a conference, and we've all been guilty of it. We go to the convention center, we go to the hotel, we go back and forth, and maybe we go out for an evening. But when you start to see a lot of these cities, there's so much more to, to experience that you just didn't get an opportunity to do. But that's that flavor we want you coming back for more, right? Yeah. You just gotta come back and taste some more of it. Sharon Pare: So it, it seems like that evolution of the [00:08:00] brand for Visit Milwaukee also changed how you guys are also approaching sales and partnerships too, right? So how would you say that your messaging and sales strategy has evolved, even in the recent years? Leslie Johnson: A lot of that evolution changed back in 2020 One, we were one of the only cities when a lot of cities were pushing pause on the growth of their city, their expansion of their convention centers, whatever it might be. Milwaukee was one of those very few cities that stood up and said, "We're gonna conti- continue to move forward. We are gonna approve the expansion of this convention center, and when all of this craziness is over, we're gonna be in a different place, and we're gonna be ready to be a different type of city than we were going into COVID." And so I think that having that commitment from our community and our city leaders has really helped us stand out quite a bit. And with that, though, we had to have a really strong strategy behind it on how are we gonna make sure that we're getting this messaging out there and getting this branding out there into an audience that has seen Milwaukee, they know of it, they're [00:09:00] somewhat familiar with it. But how do we show them that we're something new, we're something fun, we're something bold, and we're proud, and we are gonna show you how proud we are. And we've partnered with such organizations like ASAE to really say, "Help us tell this story because your audience is so important to our city to bring their conferences and their s- their events to Milwaukee because we know that we can take great care of them. We know they're gonna have an amazing time with us, and so we just need help showing that." And part of that is a- in that partnership with ASA, they came to Milwaukee and they experienced it and they said, "You know what? We wanna have our annual conference there in 2034," which for us is a huge win. It is the Super Bowl of conferences for- It really is for our, our industry. And so to have that feather in our cap has just helped catapult us again into another level of meetings and conventions for the city. Sharon Pare: Absolutely. Now Milwaukee's showing up differently in the industry now because now you will have the Super Bowl for our industry in 2034. I wanted to ask 'cause you mentioned this earlier, but how were big events like the [00:10:00] RNC or CONNECT Marketplace, how did they change perceptions for Visit Milwaukee? Leslie Johnson: From the RNC standpoint, we technically were supposed to host the DNC in 2020, and of course COVID changed all of that. And so for us in a positive thing to have the RNC come to us shortly after and say, "All right. Your city clearly had the infrastructure to, to host the DNC. We're really interested in looking at you for the RNC because of your infrastructure, because Milwaukee could be a great destination for that." And- What that really gave us, it, it gave us the ability to s- have an audience, a worldwide audience. We had people from all different countries reaching out to us, saying how great Milwaukee looks. They did such a great job of showcasing and highlighting the city. But from the RNC standpoint, what they really appreciated about our city is because of how condensed we are as a city, we're very walkable, we're very, it's easy, very easy to get around, that they were able to do their convention at the Fiserv Forum. They were able to utilize our convention center and the theaters that are all right there within walking distance, and create [00:11:00] one secure perimeter for all of those events, which is really convenient for them and their attendees versus multiple venues, multiple security touch points. And so not only from an attendee standpoint was it a phenomenal experience for every one of their delegates that came into the city, but it also showcased so well as you broadcast it out around the world. And so it just, it gave us so many eyeballs on a city that maybe they didn't even know about, or maybe they knew very little about, then they got to see how beautiful of a city we are. So that's it from the RNC standpoint. From Connect, we knew with the expansion of the convention center, we know meeting planners oftentimes are just, they're a little bit hesitant to, to buy something new that they haven't had the opportunity to experience, touch, see, feel, be a part of. And so we knew it was important for us to host some sort of industry event as we opened the convention center. So we opened in May, we hosted in August, so we had a few months to work out the kinks. Sure. But the team just knocked it out of the park. And I'm not gonna say something that's not true. I really have the Connect team that tells me all the time. We've scored the highest of any of their other [00:12:00] conferences that they've had was when they hosted it in, in, in Milwaukee. And I think a lot of it goes back to the genuine people that they got to work with, the experiences that their attendees got to have that were very authentic and unique and different, and it wasn't just your same opening reception at the same ballpark or whatever it might be. We're at the Harley-Davidson Museum, the one and only in the entire world. And so- Sharon Pare: Wow ... Leslie Johnson: they got to experience that. And so every trade show we go to to, from that day forward, we are told on a regular basis like, "That was such an amazing conference. You guys really did a great job." And it also drove a lot of business our way too, which obviously was the goal. Sharon Pare: Of course. So these events, the RNC and the CONNECT Marketplace, not only did they put you on the national stage, on the global stage too, there's a lot of eyes on Milwaukee right now. And I think maybe you guys are starting to see a shift, right? 'Cause a lot of these associations are thinking a little bit differently about where they're hosting now. So maybe we could talk about that. Why [00:13:00] are a lot of the associations looking beyond those tier one destinations and considering someone like a tier two? Leslie Johnson: Sure, yeah. Tier one's definitely, they have, they're important. You're, there's certain conferences that just can't physically fit into smaller destinations. And where we've seen now with either associations rethinking how their annual conferences are gonna look, or is it gonna be more regionalized, or maybe their attendance is shifting. We've really been able to take advantage of a lot of that. And a- again, when you go into a tier one city, you're one of many. You're one of many conferences, meetings, events, leisure activities. There could be a Taylor Swift concert going on. There could be all these things that are impacting their attendee experience as well as their experience. Whereas a sizable association that chooses Milwaukee, you kinda own the city. You are what's most important thing that's going on in our hotel community, at our convention center, our theaters that you may be using for breakouts or general sessions, [00:14:00] to our restaurants. Our restaurants are very involved in what we're doing. From the Visit Milwaukee standpoint and business that's happening at the convention center, they pay very close attention to who's in town to ensure that they're giving the quality service. They're aware of who the attendees are going to be, what they're like, what they might not like, what their agendas are so that they're staffed appropriately. And when you work with a smaller destination, you have that level of involvement from your community that you just don't necessarily get sometimes. No fault from a tier one city. It's not their fault. They're just so big that it's hard to get everybody on that same page, whereas in some of our tier two cities, you definitely get that personalized touch that, and then you get the Midwest hospitality on top of it, so. Sharon Pare: Yeah, you can't beat the Midwest hospitality. I'm not going to throw any shade on my Northeast folks, but I do live in the Northeast, and it's tough to Leslie Johnson: come by some of those Midwest hospitality type folks. Ad Read: Let's take a quick break from our episode sponsor You're invited to experience the rhythm, flavor, and momentum defining Milwaukee right now. At the [00:15:00] center is the award-winning Baird Center anchoring a thriving downtown. From the energy of Landmark Credit Union Live to the highly anticipated Nature & Culture Museum of Wisconsin and traditions like the Wisconsin State Fair, Milwaukee's personality shows up in every corner. We've now stepped boldly into our flavor era from Adidas sneakers that unlock festival access to recognition in the Michelin Guide. And with even more exciting developments on the horizon, you may find yourself planning a visit long before ASAE arrives in 2034. Get a taste now at visitmilwaukee.org/meet. Sharon Pare: It really seems like Visit Milwaukee is really equipped to be able to deliver on all of those expectations. You talked about the hospitality, we talked about the food, we talked about everything just being in this, in this nice little bubble. What would you say are some of the advantages that Milwaukee offers associations specifically? Leslie Johnson: I think it's important. From what I hear from [00:16:00] clients, they wanna work with cities that really work well together, meaning our hotel community to our convention center community to our bureau. We have a great working relationship. And I, I can't say that was always the case, and it's something that has been really a focus of our organization as well as our, our hospitality commun- community in general. But we also have the support of our mayor, our common council. Like, all of our city leaders truly understand the importance of tourism and what it means for our city. And so when we ask for a favor, it is n- rarely is it ever met with any objection. It's absolutely whatever you all need. You need us to be here. You want us to do this. We're here to help and support. And I think that is one thing that really helps Milwaukee stand above and beyond from other cities, because when we're putting together a proposal for the city, everybody is putting their best foot forward to make that happen for that group. Sharon Pare: It sounds like you have a lot of really great partners that you work with in Visit Milwaukee, and partnerships are truly the way to go when it comes down to it, right? 'Cause you're, it's a team effort for any of these [00:17:00] organizations that are coming in. I have another question, too. But how does Milwaukee balance the affordability for the associations while delivering the premium experience that you're giving to those that come to the city? Leslie Johnson: I think we're just overall an affordable destination. It goes in realizing that in order for us to capture this business and in order for us to con- remain attractive to these planners is we have to be priced with what their expectations are, too. And n- not saying that we're, we're not managing the ex- we're not delivering on the expectations. It's just we know that we're a tier two city. Their expectation is that we're going to be more affordable. And our restaurants, they're not overpriced. Some of our new restaurants that are just coming on the scene, I was just at, it's called Cassis, which is one of our new restaurants. It's a French-inspired restaurant. And it's fantastic and, but the price point is so approachable for everybody. And, and we try to make sure, 'cause we know that we ha- we have to take care of our locals, too. It's not just [00:18:00] tourism that's filling our restaurants and filling our, our bars and our theaters. It's, it's a, they have a l- a lot of locals, too, and so they wanna make sure that we remain affordable for those individuals, too. And that's just who we are in Milwaukee. We're not trying to be something fancy and expensive. We are approachable, affordable, friendly individuals, so it's just who we are Sharon Pare: I love that. And I could use a break from these $50 lunches in Washington, DC and come to Milwaukee and not spend that for a weekend. How important are some of the sustainability and inclusion con- consideration for the meeting planners today? I know that there are some certifications that Visit Milwaukee has. Can you share a little bit about that? And I know that those might be some important points that some of our listeners might like to hear a little bit more about. Leslie Johnson: Yeah. I think this is something that, uh, has continually been evolving in our industry for years. And it was important pre-COVID, it's definitely more important these days, and there's definitely a lot of t- conversation around it as we go forward. [00:19:00] And so with the expansion of the convention center, we were very thoughtful on all of the pieces that we included in that convention center to make sure that it was... It had the ability to be gold, LEED Gold certified for the building. And so we're very proud of that. And then we as Visit Milwaukee are also working with Culture City. And actually our city is the one that started the initiative, and Visit Milwaukee is now rolling that out to our hospitality community too, and encouraging them to really take consideration into getting the certification or the Culture City certification for helping and welcoming the in- accessible experiences for all attendees. And we're just in the midst of doing that right now, and our convention center has already gone through it. We wanna make sure that we're always forward-thinking on these topics and these items, and so that everybody that comes into Milwaukee can feel welcome and has the ability to experience the city at the same level of anybody else Sharon Pare: So I wanna dig into, we talked about food, we talked about the [00:20:00] Michelin-rated restaurants, we talked about supporting a lot of those local restaurants and the chefs at them as well. I wanted to get into the culture o- of the city a little bit more too. What would you say are some of the new developments or openings that are helping reshape Milwaukee's now national stage profile? And beyond that too. Yeah. Leslie Johnson: So we went through a little bit of development pre-COVID with the expansion, with the re- the new Fiserv Forum, which is where our Milwaukee Bucks played, and also won their championship in 2021. No big deal, right? No big deal, no big deal. It's not like thousands and millions of people were watching that. It was such a great thing for the city. But it left a lot of real estate in and around the Fiserv Forum for development. And the city has done a fantastic job of creating an entertainment district right around the Fiserv Forum, and they just opened up the Landmark Credit Union Live. So it's a concert venue that can accommodate up to about 4,500 people, and a general admission [00:21:00] style. So if it's not a band that's gonna be big enough to be at the Fiserv Forum, this is a great place for those types of acts, bringing more and more activity downtown. But I'm really excited too, we also are opening our, it's gonna be the new Nature and Culture Museum of Wisconsin. So we have our public museum, which will be closing, and then this will be taking in place of that. And it's a beautiful building that is now starting to do hard hat tours. We're super excited to get inside of there. We understand there's gonna be some great event space, some rooftop space. We love our rooftops in the Midwest in the summer. So looking forward to learning more about what that's all gonna look like once it's all come together, and how that's gonna be something that groups and they can book out for receptions or whatnots. And then another fun development that's in the final pieces of is the 120-year-old Harley-Davidson factory building is now- Cool being converted to... They're working with Central Standard, which is one of our local distilleries, in creating, like, an event space as [00:22:00] well as distillery, distilling out in that area. And so again, another new spot that we're gonna be able to promote and utilize for, for groups that, again, another place that, another piece of history that only in Milwaukee can you experience it Sharon Pare: So something I didn't know about Milwaukee is that Milwaukee has always been known as the city of festivals. Oh. Can you name some of the festivals that you guys, all the fests that Milwaukee has and how does that ... You have a fest for everything. We Leslie Johnson: have a fest for everything. Sharon Pare: Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about that and how it translates into the experience for the meeting and event planners too. Leslie Johnson: Yeah. No, we're so fortunate that really k- kicking off that first weekend in June with PrideFest, every weekend we have some sort of festival that's taking place. Majority of them are gonna be down on the lakefront at the Henry Maier Festival Grounds, which is where Summerfest, which is the wor- world's largest music festival, it takes place every July, June, July [00:23:00] timeframe. And so we have Polish Fest, we have Festa Italiana, we have our Juneteenth festivals down there. Polish Fest. I guess I had Polish. German Fest, which is my favorite 'cause you get the big pretzel and the beer. We have such a German- Gosh ... German community. And then we have a new one coming up this year, which is called the Freshwater Food and Wine Festival, so that's gonna be brand new in September, which I'm excited about. But, and we do find that groups do appreciate having that, those ... They can tail end their ex- their conference into those festivals. People can stay longer, invite their families- Yeah ... come and really get to experience w- so a festival post-conference or pre-conference. I actually have a couple of clients that are coming and pre, be- their conference is right before Summerfest, and so I've got their entire loading team heading over to Summerfest on that Saturday, so. Sharon Pare: Outside of just being in the conference at the convention center, which I know you give an experience outside of that, but this really gives them a true feel [00:24:00] of what Milwaukee's all about, so I think that's really neat- Yeah, exactly ... you were saying. Leslie Johnson: Or the city of festivals. Sitting at a picnic table, listening to these amazing bands on the- Yeah on the stage overlooking Lake Michigan. It doesn't get much better than that. Sharon Pare: It really doesn't. So what would you say then surprises first time convention attendees about Milwaukee right now? Leslie Johnson: They always amazed at how many people, I'll even quote some of them say, "I didn't know you were on the ocean," 'cause we're Because of how large Lake Michigan is, they don't realize it's a lake. That's why we call it the third coast. So it's, it's a little educating sometimes. But yeah, when you first fly into Milwaukee over Lake Michigan, what a beautiful entry into our city that is. You- that often surprises people. The fact that you can Our water, our waterfront is so incredibly accessible too. So it's all owned by the county, and so it's all parks and paths and running paths and walking, bike paths in the marina there. And so those attendees that do have the opportunity to get down there, and we encourage conferences too, if you're gonna [00:25:00] do a 5K, if you're gonna do some sort of fitness or recreational activity, try to get down to the lakefront because of just how beautiful it is, and attendees just really enjoy that. They are oftentimes surprised by the, again, the walkability and the going into any of our bars right there on MLK Drive, right, that's right near the convention center district. You're with the locals immediately. It's not like there are these over-commercialized restaurants or bars. And they always appreciate just that vibe that comes with that whole entertainment area. And obviously the expansion on the Baird Center, I can't say it enough what a beautiful building that is, and the intention that was put into the building of that convention center, people very much appreciate. You just don't feel like you're in a convention center. And so from attendee standpoint, it's much, much appreciated going into an exhibit hall with one, one entire wall is glass, and you get to s- feel like you're outside a little bit or get a little bit of a vibe of the happening outside. Yeah. Versus a dark dungeon. Sharon Pare: Yes, exactly All right. I wanted to wrap [00:26:00] up with a little lightning round. You've been in Milwaukee for what? 21 years now is what I think I remember you saying, and we'll just start with the first one. Your favorite restaurant. Don't worry, nobody's getting a cut of this, but- Okay. All right. Leslie Johnson: My, my favorite, my favorite- Your favorite. Yes. It's the Calderone Club. Mama's still in the back making the meatballs, and it is a fantastic Italian dining experience. It's located right by our convention center. It's, it's... If, if you're like, "Where can we go for Sharon Pare: some great food?" But there are so many great foods, but that's a tough question. It's like asking me who my favorite child is. Oh, that... Okay, fine. I'll give you two more. You wanna give us two more favorites? Leslie Johnson: I will say Cassis, which I mentioned earlier, is now- Yeah ... on my list of faves. It has a beef tartare that is to die for. And then you want a third? This is, like, a local spot. It's called The Swinging Door. It's where I go for lunch if I want a really good beet salad, but they have amazing chicken [00:27:00] tenders. It's a, it's like this little quaint, you gotta know it's there kind of spot. It's like the neighborhood Sharon Pare: restaurant. Sounds like a speakeasy sandwich spot or something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. How about the most underrated neighborhood? Leslie Johnson: I think Bay View is a definitely a- Okay ... neighborhood. It's kind of south of the city. Is, it is up and coming. A lot of great restaurants are starting to open in that area. So if you're- Okay ... coming to Milwaukee, you're gonna wanna jump in an Uber and head down to the Bay View area and check out some of the restaurants down there, for sure. Sharon Pare: Got it. Best local hidden gem. That means if you got to the end of this podcast, now you get the local's point of view on where to go. Leslie Johnson: I told you The Swinging Door is a great spot. That's cute. That's a local spot. Sharon Pare: We can stick to it. We- Local spot Leslie Johnson: Blue at the top of the Pfister, as much as... I, I don't know if I would call it a local spot, but it's a rooftop. It's got beautiful views of the... and it's on top of the historic Pfister Hotel. So, it just [00:28:00] gives you that elevated, elegant experience, if that's what you're looking for. A great martini with a beautiful view, it's a great spot to go. Or they do Sunday teas as well. Sharon Pare: I hope you know I'm revisiting this podcast for the 2030 World's Fair. I'm gonna be like, "Leslie said all of these." Okay, one last question. Okay. One thing every first-time visitor should do when they get to visit Milwaukee. They must go to this one place, or they must do this one thing. Leslie Johnson: I would say you, if you want, if you're a history person, or you're into, you can only do it in Milwaukee, you have to visit the brewery district and see, like, where Pabst Brewing's starting. Go to the Pabst Mansion, and sit in the rooms that the beer barons once sat in and made what it is today. Going into the Miller caves and where they used to store the beer, that's only Milwaukee. Harley Davidson, as we talked about, only Milwaukee. Sharon Pare: I said one thing, but now we've got five. So, you know what? That's even better. Leslie Johnson: You made me do five earlier, so [00:29:00] I, now we're just up. Now I'm warming up. Sharon Pare: So Leslie, this has been such a fun conversation. I know that Milwaukee's going into this new era right now, and it's really exciting to watch. Obviously, I'm really excited to get there in, in 2034, but maybe I'll get there before then. You need to come sooner. I might need to come sooner. But thank you again for your time today and for sharing all the fun stuff that is happening in Milwaukee right now. Leslie Johnson: Absolutely. Again, thank you so much for having me today. It was an absolute pleasure. Sharon Pare: Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, [00:30:00] visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.
#25
May 28 · 34 min
Beyond Accessibility: Building Neuroinclusive Association Communities
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Catherine Galli, MPH, digital content writer at the International Coaching Federation, sits down with Wendy-Jo Toyama, MBA, FASAE, CAE, chief executive officer of the American Epilepsy Society, and Megan Henshall, chief impact officer of The Neu Project, to explore findings from the ASAE Foundation and MPI Foundation report, “Enhancing Neuroinclusive Practices in Association.” The conversation examines how associations can create more inclusive environments for neurodivergent staff, members, and event attendees by moving beyond accessibility checklists toward intentional belonging. Toyama and Henshall discuss persistent stigma surrounding neurodivergence, gaps in awareness and implementation across organizations, and the importance of making neuroinclusive efforts visible and actionable. They also share practical strategies such as quiet and resilient spaces at events, inclusive facilitation techniques, clearer accommodation pathways, and ongoing feedback mechanisms, while emphasizing curiosity, co-creation, and intersectionality as essential components of meaningful neuroinclusion. A special thanks to the sponsors and supporters of this important report: Choose Chicago Visit Kansas City MGM Resorts International Discover Puerto Rico Myrtle Beach Convention Center MPI Foundation Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/l9p_s7Bz6QU Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Catherine Galli: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Catherine Galli, digital content writer at the International Coaching Federation. Today, we're excited to welcome Wendy-Jo Toyama, CEO of the American Epilepsy Society, and Megan Henshall, chief impact officer at The Neu Project. Welcome, Wendy-Jo and Megan. Today, we're discussing the joint report through the ASAE Foundation and MPI Foundation, “Enhancing Neuroinclusive Practices in Association,” of course, which was done in partnership with Ferguson and The Neu Project. For those who may be new to the term, let's just dive right in. How do you define neuroinclusion, and why is it especially relevant for associations right now? Megan Henshall: I can jump in first, and then I would actually love to hear your answer, too. So at The Neu Project, we define neurodiversity as all of us, right? We all have a [00:01:00] brain. Some brains are, quote, unquote, "neurotypical," some brains are neurodivergent, but there are billions of neurotypes and combinations of different ways of thinking and cognitive function. And so neurodiversity really speaks to, to all of us, and I think we're gonna dig into sort of the neurodivergent experience in this conversation today. But it really is important to note that it is speaking to brain health across everyone and how we support people with cognitive functioning, sensory processing, regardless of their neurotype Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah, and then taking it to the next step, neuroinclusion then would be creating that sense of belonging so that everyone can feel seen and heard. So creating an environment that really embraces that neurological difference. And I think it's particularly important because, as Meg said, it cuts across all aspects of associations, and so we have members who are [00:02:00] affected by practices that are either barriers or neuroinclusive. We have staff. So it's really important to build this to be able to be effective and welcoming and create a sense of belonging for everyone. Catherine Galli: Thank you. That's a great explanation, and I think it really centers everybody into the topic today. So in the association industry, this report on neuroinclusion is a first. What are some of the most surprising or unexpected findings that emerged from the data? Wendy-Jo Toyama: I will just start by saying I think associations have a long way to go on being a welcoming environment around disabilities in general. And so I think what surprised me is that there are some things that are going well or strengths we can build on. Like, I think it was not as bleak as I thought it was maybe going to be. For me, there are places where things are happening that we can build on. So that was one surprise to me. Megan Henshall: One of the things that jumped out to me when we did the individual interviews, and we [00:03:00] interviewed samples across the entire association population, but in a, a particular interview with a senior leader, so executive, there was a comment made of, "I don't think this affects my particular organization. Everyone in my organization is very high-functioning." And so it's not- Wendy-Jo Toyama: There's that as well, yes. Megan Henshall: I hear it all the time 'cause I travel constantly and talk with a bunch of different types of organizations and in different industries about neurodiversity, neuroinclusion, neuro-informed design, and I hear it a lot. There is still a lot of misunderstanding and stigma around what a neurodivergent person is and how they present. So I think one of the biggest sort of aha moments from any of these conversations, not just the brilliant work that we've done with ASAE and MPI, is that there are neurodivergent people in every rank, and a lot of this is completely invisible. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yes. Megan Henshall: And so it's really important to know that, and until that sort of awareness exists in your body, it's really hard to [00:04:00] support it, accommodate and advocate for it. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah, that was shocking when I read that finding. The other place that I was surprised about, and I think we probably need to dig in a little bit more, is there's a pretty big gap between member perceptions and staff perceptions. That came out, and it will need more exploration, I think. Megan Henshall: Yeah. Catherine Galli: It's interesting that you note visibility in there, and Wendy-Jo, you mentioned the connection to inclusive design and making things inclusive for people with different disabilities, and I think you've also tied it into inclusion in other topics within associations. I love that this study really tries to look at all of the different levels and how that fits within members, their experiences at different events, and then also for staff themselves. And you mentioned this gap between staff and members. When you compare those perspectives, [00:05:00] where do you see the biggest disconnects in how neuroinclusion is experienced? Wendy-Jo Toyama: The one area that I noted a disconnect was around communication, in that the scores are very good about creating design the way it's formatted and looks pretty effectively. But where it is-- where there is a gap is in the actual messaging and the content itself. So not being explicit about being inclusive and thoughtful and intentional around neuroinclusion was one big gap Megan Henshall: This is a constant thing too. What we saw in the ASAE research is no different than most other organizations who are on a journey to try to implement a neuroinclusive practice. I think a lot of times we educate ourselves, we build an awareness, then we start to implement practices or tactics, and yet we don't story tell around those things, and we don't co-create with the people that we're building for. This is a real challenge across [00:06:00] all design practices, not just this one. But I think a lot of times people, especially event people, who are all heart, right? We care so much about others. We're doing these things in service of others, yet we're not talking about the real intention and thought and care behind those things, and we're not asking for feedback and conversation and dialogue around them when we do try them. So it's really hard to learn, and it's really hard to iterate and get better. But it's interesting because staff are like, "No, we're doing the thing." It's really hard to make it as impactful as possible unless we're inviting the people that it's for into the conversation and iterating, co-creating, evolving with them. So it's really interesting to watch how that's always a part of any journey with this work. But it's a really critical part of the journey. Wendy-Jo Toyama: And Meg, I think when I look at the page that really calls out this gap [00:07:00] between leaders and members, members perceive us being further along than the staff do. And I think it's related to the journey. I think where it is closest is things around being supportive, creating intention. But where the gaps are the largest are like when you put it into action. So I think allocating resources to support neuroinclusive initiatives. There's a huge gap between what members think and what staff think on that front. There's a huge gap between development programs and training around neurodiversity awareness and understanding. There's a gap around actively involving neuroinclusive initiatives into your plan. So I think it's a journey gap, if you will. Catherine Galli: It's interesting to hear both you, Wendy-Jo, and Meg, you've mentioned that there's this communication gap as well of we're trying to implement these neuroinclusive practices, and yet nobody knows that they're being [00:08:00] implemented, or perhaps members are not able to find the information they need. Can you explain that gap a little bit more? Megan Henshall: I can speak to our experience working with companies and also my own experience advocating for myself. So I got diagnosed with autism at 40 after my son was diagnosed at three, so this has been a professional journey for me, but also a very personal one. But I think there's a lot of fear around work like this, and there's a lot of hesitation to lean in because what if we get it wrong or what if we try something that actually isn't helpful? And I think that is why a lot of organizations or just people hesitate or struggle to openly and transparently communicate around what they're doing and why. I also think there's this cancel culture and asking a question and it not being the right question has created a lot of harm in work like this, and I think that's one of the cultural and societal issues with [00:09:00] this. And I hear leaders say it all the time, "I really wanna do something about this. I'm afraid of getting it wrong and it ac- and actually making things worse." But the truth of the matter is, if you approach this sort of work with humility and you're honest and transparent about what you're doing, people are grateful. They're grateful every time. Now, you might get some critical feedback or you might get feedback that you weren't expecting at all, but that just makes us all better. And so in my opinion, at a macro level, I think this is one thing that impacts people's ability to communicate effectively is just this hesitation that, what if I use the wrong word? Or what if I'm not knowledgeable enough? No one is an expert in neuroinclusion. It is a real-time dynamic practice. We are learning more about the human brain every day. We're learning more about how that brain is evolving in real time, so you can't possibly be an expert. We're all learning. We should be [00:10:00] learning openly and together. Wendy-Jo Toyama: I want to build on that and say when I became a CEO, I had a strong membership background. I had an MBA. I was pretty comfortable with finance. I didn't know meetings so well, and I certainly didn't know publishing. But that didn't mean that I didn't do those things because I didn't know and I was afraid of making a mistake. So I think that then you think about what did I do? I reached out to someone I knew who was our editor at the place I worked before. I gained knowledge. I engaged consultants. These are all things you can do around neuroinclusion, and you can certainly start by looking at the research. There's some good articles in there. But saying, "I'm afraid of making a mistake," is not an excuse for equipping yourself to being able to create a welcoming environment around this. The other thing I would say is something that I noticed when I was reading the report. There's a lot in here around intention, and so again, [00:11:00] not just creating a pathway for people to get an accommodation if they need it, but to actually designate somebody who may be an ambassador or someone that you can put out that folks can proactively reach out to. So again, shifting from a compliance culture, sure, if you ask, we'll do it, to one that says, "Hey, are there accommodations you need around neurodiversity? And if there are, here's the pathway for that." That's huge, and really the implementation is the same. You'll still make the accommodation. It's all about the front end and how you make it visible, easy, and begin to take away the stigma around it, right? Catherine Galli: So for association leaders who are wanting to begin this journey, I like that you're starting to mention the skills transferability of leaders are always having to learn new things, and they're always having to apply new things. Just to give our listeners some examples, what are a few simple [00:12:00] high-impact changes that event planners can make to create more neuroinclusive environments? Wendy-Jo Toyama: So I just attended a large 11,000-person meeting. I was there all day. I do not identify as neurodivergent, and yet when I got home, I'm a little introverted. When I got home, I was just done. And so I know some meetings, ours included, are trying to create a quiet place, a space where people during the meeting can go and take a break, and it's quiet. It's away from the hubbub. It's created with intention though, not just, "Here's a room." So I think that's one, one thing I would say I am beginning to see implemented at meetings, and I think it's very good. Megan Henshall: I couldn't agree more about resilient spaces. I'll give you a funny anecdote. We were at a large culture festival in Texas. I'll let you do with that what you will. And they had resilient spaces, and my [00:13:00] partner in this work, Rachel Lowenstein, and I walked in just to check it out. We're, like, so curious, and it was, like, an inflatable, almost a kids' bounce house in- Oh. ... its room. And so you had the fan going, which is, like- Oh my God, immediate sensory nightmare. The touch of the rubber thing. It was just so not it. So I think there's a lot of, for resilient spaces, I think there's a lot of mental mapping we've done that they need to be juvenile and they're for children, but adults need these spaces in many ways more than kids do. Because we, we don't take care of ourselves, and we largely just, like, we don't take care of each other as much as we should, and that was just a really funny example of, ooh, maybe not the gr- the best way. Yeah. It was a funny moment. I also think, like, there's this- Mindset in the event industry and experience design industry at large, that the flashier, the louder activation. Megan Henshall: [00:14:00] The brighter, the more colorful this thing is, the more you're gonna capture and keep people's attention. And like we know based on neuroscience, that is not at all true. Where you have high highs, you need low lows. People can't sustain high energy all day. They actually can't sustain attention. We have-- The human attention span is actually now less than a goldfish. Thank you, social media. Catherine Galli: Yeah. Megan Henshall: So, like we really need to give people breaks. We need to facilitate transitions and give them permission and alibis to go and process and regulate and restore, and sometimes that can be as simple as just giving longer breaks. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Longer, yeah. Megan Henshall: They can find their own way. I think giving intentionally designed spaces is really beautiful. Understanding budget constraints and things, like just give them more time to process between things. And think about how we attenuate and amplify at the right time. If you wanna do the [00:15:00] loud music and the flashing lights, like cool, choose your moment for that and know that you also need to provide an alternative, a counterpoint to that at another point in time, because people need both. If you want the most out of them, you need to make sure that you're supporting how their brain works. Catherine Galli: And that's not even a neurodivergent challenge. That's just a people challenge. I remember going to a three-day conference that was basically a rave for three straight days. Um, leaving and being very overwhelmed. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. And that speaks to universal design, right? The idea that a lot of times these considerations that get put in place for one purpose end up benefiting everybody. So yeah, better meeting overall. Megan Henshall: I planned for conferences for decades, and I would come home from running an event, and I would go non-verbal, and I would be in bed for two days. And at the time, I thought, I'm just exhausted. No, I was actually having a full- Megan Henshall: Yeah ...autistic shutdown, [00:16:00] and now I know how to moderate. But there's a lot of things that I go to because I have to for work, or I need to be there to speak, and they're really untenable for me and a lot of people Catherine Galli: So you mentioned some of the things that are supportive in events for being able to be more accessible, not just for neurodivergent individuals, but for everyone. What are some of the ways that associations can better support their neurodivergent members, whether that's volunteering, leadership roles, or even committee participation? Wendy-Jo Toyama: We recently had a strategic planning session, and I really appreciated our consultant who we brought in to facilitate that because she did very thoughtful things around this. It would be typical that they might throw out a question to a group, talk about how X is affecting the field. But she also included, "I want everybody to think for the next two minutes. Let's not talk. [00:17:00] Let's just think. Take out a piece of paper and write down how the external environment is affecting your association." And I really appreciated that. It gave folks who are not think talkers the chance to gather their thoughts. I think there's little things like that we can do. I think that that was really helpful for a group that I'm sure included neurodivergent folks. Megan Henshall: I think one of the reasons I loved the approach to this project we did with ASAE and MPI is it started with curiosity and listening, and I really believe- Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yes Megan Henshall: Curiosity is a dying human practice because now we can Gemini or ChatGPT anything, and we don't talk to one another anymore. And I think any organization that really wants to get this right, they have to start with listening and a really deep spirit of curiosity to understand the [00:18:00] experience of the people that ultimately they serve or, or building for or designing for. And I'm always really proud to be a part of a project that-- or a journey that starts that way. So I think it's as simple as asking people on your team, "How do you best like to see, receive information? What is your communication style, and how can I accommodate the ways that you learn or you process information?" Cool. Tell me a little bit about your chronotype. What are the parts of your day where you're peak creative, and how can we lean into that? I think this idea of job crafting and things in the future, learning strengths-based work and, and just building together, collaboration is gonna be more important than ever in a post-AI world. And curiosity is not something that AI can replace. Bravery to ask the question is not something that AI can ever [00:19:00] replace. And so these are the human things. This is very human work, right? These are the human things that we need to recultivate, and guess what? They're free, and they're simple. So I, I really do think that's the best first step for anyone who wants to get into this work. Wendy-Jo Toyama: So interesting to hear you talk about it, Meg, because at the organization I'm at, the American Epilepsy Society, our members are really curious, no surprise. And so we bring a lot of curiosity into our association and into our work. We also talk about neurodivergence at the board table as well as with staff. And I think, again, normalizing it, bringing curiosity helps us think about how to curate and design a meeting or a day in a way that takes that into account and doesn't make it something that's odd or stigmatized or negative. Megan Henshall: Yeah. We're not robots, right? We all have different needs, and it's so important. And once you throw it out there, people are like, "Oh." Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. Megan Henshall: And it creates such rich conversation. It's a beautiful thing. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. There's no IEP for adulthood. Megan Henshall: 100. Don't I know [00:20:00] it. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. So we have to figure out how we carry on that, creating an environment where everyone can bring their best self. Catherine Galli: That's wonderful. And even just framing it within curiosity takes away some of the fear for people who are trying to jump into this space to say that, "Okay, I'm going to get it wrong, but I want to learn, and I can learn with the people that I work with and the people that I serve together." That's wonderful. So we've talked about this idea of stepping into starting these practices. I like that the research kind of sets a baseline for neuroinclusive practice and associations. Going off of that, what guidance would you offer to leaders to measure and improve neuroinclusion in their organizations? Megan Henshall: I can jump in. I think when you're doing, again, very deeply human work like neuroinformed design and neuroinclusive practice, I think [00:21:00] understanding sentiment is one of the most important things, because again, this isn't data on a spreadsheet. This is lived experience, and this is like human beings' everyday lives. And so I think, again, creating a really robust feedback channel that is open and transparent is critical for this sort of work. As you implement, you ask, "How did that land? How did that feel? Was that helpful? How could it be more helpful?" And I know we're all survey fatigued, but it doesn't have to be a survey, right? It can be an individual conversation. It can be observational audit, right? Just to see how people are engaging with the thing that you tried. We've done this a multitude of ways in the new project. At one point, we brought in behavioral and organizational scientists, and they did an observational audit and helped us iterate and improve. So I think there are a lot of different ways that you can do this that aren't as potentially annoying or invasive as a survey. [00:22:00] But the feedback loop, people seeing you responding to their feedback and then coming back to them is, it's just so kind, and it's just one of the most impactful things that you can do. It is very hard to boil this down to two KPIs, but once you have that feedback loop in place, the story writes itself, and then I think you can plug out certain data points or positive or negative side effects of various interventions, so you can build from there. But that feedback channel is really important. Wendy-Jo Toyama: I love your answer because it is very personal and actionable. I will also say, I do think you could use proxies, right? So I do think that ideally, if you are being inclusive of all your employees and neuro inclusive, you might see employee engagement scores go up. You might see your employee retention go up. You might see your member retention or your net promoter score go up. [00:23:00] So I think there are other proxies you can look at. You may not be able to draw a straight line, and of course, these kinds of efforts take time. So that's why I like augmenting proxies with what you're talking about. I love the experience audit idea. I also think there are questions we can ask. Does everyone feel like they belong? Do you feel like you can express your opinion? Do you feel heard? I think there are questions that sometimes feel like soft questions, but they really aren't anymore, right? We're learning that what leaders need is shifting and evolving, and these are essential skills. But there are qu- there are questions you could incorporate into something else you're doing, right? To your point, Meg, there's... People are tired of surveys, but so I think figuring out what you're currently doing and how you can just tweak it a little to get a little information could be helpful. Megan Henshall: Yeah. I'll give a really tangible example. Based on feedback and sentiment, we heard we're partnering with an organization, we heard we need [00:24:00] something intentional and designed to lower stress and anxiety in this particular environment. And so we created an intervention based on the feedback, we implemented it, and then we actually tracked some biometric data. Oh. We had a user experience team come in and conduct interviews, and started with feedback, did this intervention, and actually ended up with this incredible data around how this intervention had lowered stress and anxiety rates by 60%. Megan Henshall: Uh ... so amazing. The teams felt more creative post-intervention, and they actually felt more productive for up to four hours afterwards. And so it was really interesting. We didn't know exactly what we would learn, but we knew we were solving a real problem that we had heard from the people we cared about. And so this is just a very tangible example of how that can manifest. You don't always know exactly what KPI you're gonna end up with, but if you're doing the right thing with the right intention, you'll prove yourself right with the [00:25:00] data. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Right. And here's what I heard. I didn't hear, "Oh my gosh, I have to bring in a behavioral health scientist to measure this." What I heard is, "Oh, she listened to her audience, made changes, and it was effective." That's the part of your answer that I heard that feels very implementable, right? Because, again, we don't wanna not do it because I can't have someone come in and measure it. I don't have the money to do that, so I'm not- Right ... gonna do it at all. You can still do it, and guess what? You'll still get a result even if you're not measuring it. Megan Henshall: Yeah. I think sometimes we get so hamstrung. We're in a prison of date, of data necessity. I love it. And we... There's this really great saying, "The same hammer can build a cathedral or a prison," and I think a lot of times we wield data that way. Yeah. Boxed ourselves in. Just do something 'cause you know it's the right thing to do and it's needed, and I guarantee you the data will come. Yeah. Wendy-Jo Toyama: It's incredible. It's like being at the conference the other day, and I didn't have my watch on, so I couldn't count my steps. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." You know? Yeah, but I guess I'm still taking [00:26:00] them all, so it still counts whether or not I measured it. Megan Henshall: Uh, I have the Oura Ring, and sometimes it's a very self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm like, "Oh, I'm not well today." Catherine Galli: So then for organizations considering getting involved or sponsoring this type of research, what's the real value both for the organization and the broader community? Wendy-Jo Toyama: Ultimately, creating a sense of belonging is going to be beneficial on so many different fronts, from including all voices, different voices, people wanting to be a part of your association, working or as members. So many different benefits. Megan Henshall: Yeah. As someone who regularly says that my autistic special interest is people, I'm often completely befuddled by this mindset of, "We wanna sell you something. We wanna get something from you, yet [00:27:00] we're not gonna take the time to understand you and meet you where you are." Yeah. And I think we talk about neuroinclusion as, and it's not just the right thing to do, it's also a strategic imperative. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. Megan Henshall: There was a really interesting study that came out last year from our friends at understood.org. Like 52% of Gen Z, decent sample size, identify as neurodivergent. Catherine Galli: Sure. Megan Henshall: And so it's just really interesting to think there's this whole swath of people that most organizations know very little about, not only how to support them and accommodate them, but also how to get the most out of them, how to help them meet their potential, or how to sell them something even, right? And so I think it's really important that when you're designing or you're looking to target people, that you do everything you can to understand them, because that's gonna help you get the messaging right. That's gonna help you create the right design interventions, and ultimately, it creates a really virtuous cycle, right? I understand you, I do the right thing for you to give [00:28:00] back. It creates reciprocity, and it's not as extractive. So I, I just think it's a really important part of business, like good business practice. Wendy-Jo Toyama: It's essential. Catherine Galli: Yeah. I love that, and I love hearing just this idea that, one, it's about being a good steward of resources and being a good steward of people, treating people with respect and kindness, and inviting them to engage on all these different levels. But also just a strategic imperative- It is ... that the future of work demands that associations or really any organization be prepared for these changes that are happening, and be able to work with future staff and future members who may identify as neurodivergent. So I really like that this research is coming in now because I think it's a great place to spark those conversations and to prepare associations for a future like that, and for people right now who are navigating these different events and [00:29:00] leadership positions, committee participation, and wanting to show up as their best selves. Mm. And then I had a question about- We talked about the research, we talked about ways to make events a little bit more inviting. That first step can be really challenging. If an association wanted to get started with neuroinclusion today but didn't know where to begin, what's the first step you recommend they take? Wendy-Jo Toyama: I wouldn't boil the ocean. And I think if you haven't stated an intention, I think that's a place to start. But you do need to follow it with action. You don't wanna be performative in this space. I think one of the things that you could do is begin a conversation with your staff about this. You may not know who identifies as neurodivergent, and if somebody steps [00:30:00] forward, then that might be someone you could co-create with. So that might be a way to start by bringing it into the room, having the conversation, having by us, for us kind of discussion, and identifying something that would be meaningful and doable and sustainable. Megan Henshall: I love that answer. Yeah, look around where you are and invite neurodivergent people. They're there. They are. Invite them to the process. Catherine Galli: Yeah. Megan Henshall: So I said earlier, start with listening. I think listening to people in your own organization is a beautiful way to get started there. I will counter, so here's what not to do. Oh, Catherine Galli: yeah. Megan Henshall: Do not hire a neurodivergent speaker, especially if you're not compensating them fairly. Have them come talk about their lived experience, and then do nothing afterwards. That is so icky. I see it happening all the time, and people are like, "We did it. We checked the box. We educated people." A 30-minute keynote at a conference where someone is talking about their [00:31:00] disability is not it. Don't do that. But I, I actually don't think there's any wrong way to start as long as you're doing it from- Start ... an honest, honest place and you're curious. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. Catherine Galli: Yeah. Love that. And is there anything else you want our listeners to know about enhancing neuro inclusion in their practices and associations? Wendy-Jo Toyama: One of the things we haven't talked about that I do wanna mention is intersectionality. And I do think that if you are someone who identifies as a person of color or female in a male environment, male in a female environment, you might closet your neurodivergence. And so again, I think it's important for leaders to understand that this is happening. That when you say, "I don't have anyone neurodivergent on my staff," you probably do. They are probably, there's probably intersectionality happening there, and they don't wanna be an Asian woman and neurodivergent. [00:32:00] So I think that's really important to be aware of. And again, I think what Meg's been talking about, being curious and listening, I think those are some of the ways that you can try to tease this out. But it's a real- anxiety, stressful-producing situation to be in as an individual if you feel you have to hide part of who you are because, oh gosh, I have this other stuff going on. So I, I just think it's important that people are aware of that. I'm not actually sure what to tell you to do about that, but be aware of it and continue to be curious and listen. Megan Henshall: Yeah. Less than 30%, I think it's 27% is the latest stat, of people disclose that they're neurodivergent at work or in mixed spaces, right, where they don't have really trusted people around. And a lot of people are undiagnosed. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Sure. Megan Henshall: They need this work, and they just don't know they need it. So yeah, I just- I'll give a quick plug. We have free resources on The Neu Project website. It's just The Neu Project, N-E-U project.com. There [00:33:00] are free resources there specifically for event planners because we know events are one of the most stressful things for neurodivergent people. A lot of them don't go, and so they're missing out on professional opportunities and networking opportunities that matter to them, and their careers, and their growth, and their ability to contribute. Go check that out. We'll- those will always be free. And I think, while I can't speak for Wendy-Jo, but if you have questions and you just wanna unpack things with a safe person, I'm always open. So you can contact the team at The Neu Project through the website. And yeah, stay curious. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. And the resource with MPI and ASAE has practical actions in it. It has links to articles in it, and I believe toolkits will be coming out as well. Again, I think now that you've heard about neuroinclusion and neurodiversity, you're probably gonna find a number of places you can turn. It wasn't on your radar screen maybe before, but now it is. So there are [00:34:00] resources out Catherine Galli: there. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Meg and Wendy-Jo. Thanks to everybody listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month to explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.
#24
May 21 · 33 min
The Impact of Second-Tier Destinations on Association Meetings and Events
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions is joined by Stephanie Alexander-Priakos, director of meetings and conferences at Visit St. Pete-Clearwater; Myha Gallagher, vice president of brand at Future Partners; and Jill Stone, site selection manager with HelmsBriscoe, for a conversation about the evolving meetings and events landscape and the growing appeal of second-tier destinations like St. Pete-Clearwater, Florida. Drawing on industry research and firsthand planning experience, the guests discuss how planners are increasingly prioritizing affordability, accessibility, safety, and unique experiences when selecting destinations, while also navigating rising costs, convention center fatigue, and growing political considerations tied to location decisions. The conversation also explores emerging trends shaping the future of meetings, including the rise of “bleisure” travel, the importance of walkability and outdoor gathering spaces, and how AI is beginning to influence sourcing and attendee personalization. Alexander-Priakos highlights what continues to drive interest in St. Pete-Clearwater, from its award-winning beaches and walkable downtown to expanding meeting infrastructure, wellness-focused properties, and cultural attractions such as the Dalí and Chihuly museums. The episode also examines the role destination organizations play in supporting planners through site visits, logistics, and creating memorable attendee experiences that extend beyond the convention center. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/dQzqtjc_2N0 This episode is sponsored by Visit St. Pete-Clearwater. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, partnerships director at High Road, a HubSpot agency, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode is sponsored by Visit St. Pete-Clearwater. Today, I'm joined by three fantastic guests. First, I wanna introduce Myha Gallagher, vice president of brand at Future Partners, where she helps bring meeting and travel industry research to life through data-driven storytelling and insights. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos, director of meetings and conferences at Visit St. Pete-Clearwater, who's passionate about showcasing the destination's award-winning beaches, culture, hospitality, and group experiences. And Jill Stone, site selection manager with HelmsBriscoe and co-host of the In the [00:01:00] Genes podcast, who brings more than 35 years of experience helping planners create successful meetings and events throughout the world. Today, we're talking about trends shaping the meetings and events industries, meeting and events industry, and why more planners and associations are looking beyond traditional convention destinations toward places like St. Pete-Clearwater. So I'm gonna put a little disclaimer here, 'cause as a Florida girl born and raised, and I think I mentioned this to you ladies before, I have to say it's been really fun watching the west coast of Florida evolve. 20-plus years ago. I don't wanna date myself here, but in college a lot of us on the east side of Central Florida, we just didn't head west all that often. And now here in the 2020s, 2026, I think St. Pete-Clearwater has become one of the most talked about destinations, right? Meetings, events, food, maybe sports, and maybe just the overall experience. So I'm really excited to dig into all of this today. So Myha, I really wanna kick off your work [00:02:00] with the research, because I think it will frame this entire conversation. So Future Partners, which I know you're very heavily involved with that survey, every year you do a survey of meeting planners to understand the trends that are impacting the meetings industry. So what would you say are some of the top emerging trends as it relates to St. PeteyClearwater? Myha Gallagher : Yeah, I'm happy to share that, Sharon. Thank you so much for having us on. The first and probably the biggest trend that we see coming out of our latest survey is the rise in interest among meeting planners in sourcing second-tier destinations. In fact, nearly 81% of planners that we surveyed agreed that second-tier destinations are growing in popularity for events, and this is really being driven by the demand for new experiences, a perception that second-tier cities are much safer than first-tier cities, and then cost savings in sourcing smaller destinations as well. And then we're also hearing from planners that their attendees are having [00:03:00] convention center fatigue. Just being stuck in the four concrete walls of a convention center can really drain your energy, and so planners are sharing with us that they are looking for more differentiated experiences and, of course, beautiful scenery to keep their attendees engaged and energized. And then lastly, unfortunately, there's been a considerable rise in agreement among planners that politics are having an effect on the destinations that they're sourcing. In fact, 61% of planners said they have had to reconsider a destination due to controversial issues in the past 12 months alone. And in subsequent conversations with planners, they've shared with us that, of course, they're planning events for large groups, many diverse attendees, and they wanna make sure that the destinations that they select will be safe and welcoming for their groups. And this is an area where St. Pete Clearwater has done a fantastic job crafting each message and ad campaign to [00:04:00] really showcase how welcoming a destination they are. Sharon Pare: So I wanted to dig in a little bit more. You mentioned this convention center fatigue, this attendee fatigue, right? And like you said, a lot of the attendees say don't wanna be within that traditional sense in those four walls of the convention center now, right? And perhaps we're gonna dig into this a little bit more in the conversation, but can you touch on that a little bit about are planners now looking for destinations where the city itself becomes part of the entire event experience? Myha Gallagher : Oh, absolutely. I think the traditional sense of conventions and convention centers, especially with younger attendees coming into the mix now with Gen Z, planners are really looking for ways to engage that younger audience, and we know there are different tools that need to be used to activate our younger convention attendees. And one tactic is definitely sourcing more unique spaces, making sure you're in a really [00:05:00] beautiful environment to keep the energy up. And that's not to say convention centers are going away at all. They serve a very specific and vital part of the meetings industry. But for planners who are hosting smaller groups, not citywides, they are definitely looking towards more unconventional and more unique spaces to host their events. Sharon Pare: And to add to that, what right now are planners ... And don't worry, Jill, I'll be getting to you soon. But what are they asking for that maybe three or four years ago they weren't asking for? Is there anything different? Is there a shift that you've seen? Myha Gallagher : Yeah. The top trend around that, I think it comes as no surprise to anyone in the room, is the use of AI. Many planners are using AI to help with their sourcing decisions, and they're also thinking about ways that AI can be integrated into the meeting environment to [00:06:00] personalize meeting agendas for their attendees. And like every other industry, AI is making its impact, and, and it'll be interesting to see how planners continue to leverage the tool to evolve their meetings. Sharon Pare: I'm gonna bring it over to Jill. And it's really interesting, Miha, to hear about the research side of things because again, I think it's really reshaping how the planners are thinking about some of these things today, and how they're planning their meetings. So Jill, after decades, I don't wanna say many, but after decades working directly, well, it just shows your expertise and your wisdom around really knowing your stuff. But after working with these directors and planners and clients after all this time, are you seeing those shifts play out in real time? And maybe you can tell us about a recent experience you had with Visit St. Pete/Clearwater, and tell us a little bit more about that. Jill Stone: Sure. Miya took most of my answers, I gotta say. But I got a few left I think that maybe I can share. She's right. Clients are looking for [00:07:00] lots of different things. Mainly, there's, the safety issue's huge. Politics is huge unfortunately. And I've had clients leave a particular hotel or destination, or just totally discount it altogether because of that. And then there's other things that happen, laws that are passed, et cetera, that maybe they can't either agree with or get on board with. But yes, I just had a client at the Wyndham Clearwater Beach, and St. Pete was great. They offer free things for clients, and I'm sure Stephanie's gonna get into all the things that they offer and the things that they can do. But they also help when I'm looking for a destination, and maybe I have forgotten one. They're quick to tell me, "Hey, look at this one, too." And- What I found, especially when I interviewed Stephanie for our podcast, is that they have some great hotels and resorts of all various sizes. So if a client has a large size meeting, let's say 4- or 500 people, that can be done, but also some of the smaller meetings can be at some of the more boutique style hotels or those [00:08:00] kinds of things. But, and one other thing they're looking for is walkability to things, ease of getting to the destination. Affordability is huge. Second tier destinations like St. Pete/Clearwater are very affordable. And yes, I agree with Miha on the convention center fatigue. If they can get outside to the beach, and more beach, that makes them happy. And outside venue spaces are key for lunches, breaks, et cetera. So if they can find a meeting space that has an outdoor terrace or a lawn or someplace where they can be outside in a great, warm destination, then they will be signing on the dotted line pretty quickly for that. But also, St. Pete has the The Renaissance Vinoy is one of my favorite hotels, and it is located in a really cool area, maybe not so much beach, but they've got shops and restaurants and museums and things that are so walkable and people wanna get to and experience. So there's all kinds of things you can experience in their destination. All of it, [00:09:00] actually. You can have a city experience or you can have more of a beach experience. And a lot of planners are looking for that now. They've got attendees who want, we call it bleisure. They wanna expand and they wanna go someplace they wanna go. And so it's on their bucket list to get to. So those are the kinda things that my clients are looking for. And another thing that's easy for them is if they are just using one hotel, one contract and one contact makes their whole life a whole lot easier, too. So anything we can do to help the planners find what they want with ease and make it easier for them, that's my job to do, and I try to do that. Try to do that every day. Sharon Pare: It sounds like Visit St. Pete-Clearwater definitely gets you outside of those four walls because it has so much to offer. You mentioned having the boutique hotels, obviously, and I know this too, some of the most beautiful beaches. Bleisure, this is my first time ever hearing of business and leisure just put into one, right? What are some of your clients prioritizing the most right now when they're selecting destinations? I know you talked about [00:10:00] walkability and some of the other things. Is there anything else that the clients or your clients are really looking for, too? Jill Stone: With the way the economic things are happening right now, affordability is one of the key things. Which it does, second tier destinations do tend to be more affordable. It's easy to get into their airports, which are smaller, so their attendees don't feel like they're lost in a huge Airport, and at, and typically where they're going is very close to the airport. No one wants to be hours and hours away from the airport. So those destinations tend to have ... In St. Pete, I know, I know Stephanie will talk about all those things too, but they do have all those things. You, depending on where you wanna be in their area, you're very close to things. And yes, walkability. The Wyndham, for example, there was a pier and lots of restaurants just within walking distance. And so it was perfect for both. They got both experiences, the beach, and a little bit of the city experience too. So for my client, that was very much ... They're, the, and they're, the, and they [00:11:00] also we have to think about not only do the attendees, because they're s- pretty much in meeting rooms all day, their spouses wanna come and bring their kids sometimes. And so this was perfect destination for that, and the kids got to be outside flashing around and, uh, running around in the sand. Sharon Pare: Jill, I, I think that's such a good setup for Stephanie, 'cause now we've talked about what the planners are looking for. And Stephanie, I, you're from the Visit St. Pete-Clearwater side. So I wanna talk about really what makes the destination work so well for groups. Why is St. Pete-Clearwater a great place to have a meeting or conference? Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: First of all, m- going from what Jill had said over here, we do have award-winning beaches. That's what we're famous for with Clearwater Beach and St. Pete Beach. They've had accolades. I've lived here 19 years now, and they've been having accolades of the best beaches in America for as long as I've been here, and I think it's an awful lot longer than that too. But the weather. This is why I moved here. [00:12:00] Coming from the UK where it rains a lot, it's very gray, it's windy. I'd had enough of it. I needed some blue sky and sunshine. And I've, I've been lucky that I've been in this industry all of my life as well, and I must have traveled to over 80 different countries now, and I've lived in six different countries. And there is nowhere else in the world that I would rather live and work than St. Pete-Clearwater. For me, it has everything that I can possibly want, and I don't think I'm alone because we get a lot of meetings that are held over in this destination. One of course, like you said, because of the weather. We actually hold a Guinness World Record, St. Pete does, and it is for the most consecutive days of sunshine in the world at 768 consecutive days of sunshine. We have all year round great weather. I love it. The groups are really busy in January and February when it's really [00:13:00] cold and snowy up in Chicago or Boston or Cleveland. So we get a lot of people coming down at that time of year just to get a break from the cold weather too But our hotels are so different. Each and every one has its own unique selling point. Everything from downtown St. Petersburg, which really has that vibrant arts and culinary feel to it. We have four restaurants in downtown St. Pete that are in the Michelin Guide. Every single restaurant in downtown St. Pete except two is independently owned and operated as well. Very proud of that. And like Jill said, everything is walking distance. I will make one correction on the Vinoy, though. It's no longer The Renaissance. It is the Vinoy Marriott Autograph Collection. Oh, sorry about that. That's okay. And the Vinoy is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. They went through a major renovation. The hotel is just... It's fabulous. Very Spanish style. [00:14:00] Lot of history to it. They have great meeting space. Their largest meeting room is 12,000 square feet, and they have a total of 35,400. So it's a great option in downtown St. Pete. And like Jill said, everything's walkable. It really is. And they have a marina right opposite the hotel, so you have the choice of doing your deep sea fishing charters. Go and see some dolphins. It's just about guaranteed every time you go on the water you're gonna see some dolphins. We get a lot of people that asking for natural light in their meetings now. When you'd mentioned- Yes, that's so important ... yep, and Mihad mentioned this convention, they, they don't want to be in those four walls where they don't know what's going on outside. Sharon Pare: Or those basements sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes you end up in, in a cave, and you haven't seen the light of day for 72 hours, and then by the time you get out of it, it's dark, right? Yeah. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Yep. So, okay. Right. That's good to know. Yeah, so a lot of hotels with, with meeting space, space with [00:15:00] natural light. We have up and down the beaches, too, and in downtown St. Pete. And I think that's really important, but our hotels are smart because they do have the option to bring down those blinds if they do need to st- If people are looking outside and watching the dolphins too much in the middle of the meeting, we do have options. We can fix that, so it's all good. That sounds sad- I would be- but, you know, that makes sense. Go ahead, Jill. Jill Stone: I would be watching the dolphins. That would be a whole... probably more fun than whatever's on the screen. But no, I like that idea, too. And you can see outside when you want to. And like I said, they like to get outside, so if there's a way to do that, too, they're happy there. And I know there's... You, Stephanie, you have a lot of hotels with that capability. A lot of people Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: are bringing in the wellness tourism into their meetings as well. The wellness... We've got three properties that are recognized by the Wellness Tourism Association, which is The Vinoy. We also have the Don CeSar on St. Pete Beach and the JW Marriott on Clearwater Beach. So we're seeing that groups are looking for different experiences as well, and [00:16:00] incorporating that wellness into their agenda. Ad Read: Let's take a quick break and hear a word from our episode sponsor. Whether it's a sunrise walk before sessions or a sunset reception on the Gulf, America's favorite beaches give your event a backdrop that no ballroom can match. The Dali Museum, Chihuly Collection, and hundreds of murals across the Edge District give planners ready-made cultural excursions that feel curated, not generic. St. Pete-Clearwater has earned national recognition as one of America's next great food cities. From laid-back Gulf Coast seafood to Michelin-recognized kitchens, the range and quality give planners a roster of restaurants that impress any attendee and appetite. To start planning today, visit meetspc.com. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I want to go back to the Don CeSar Hotel, which is another iconic property that we have on St. Pete Beach. [00:17:00] They are 98 years old, and are gonna be celebrating their 100th anniversary soon. Mm. And both properties have really great history to it, because both of them were actually used as hospitals during World War II, and they've been renovated, and they just look amazing. They look fantastic. The Don CeSar just opened a brand-new ballroom with 7,400 square feet, so they have some really good meeting space, too. Our newest hotel is the Opal Sol, part of the Opal Collection. That's up in Clearwater Beach. Very nice. As they have a connecting walkway across the street to their sister property, the Opal Sands Hotel. So we got really excited because c- the two- Mm-hmm ... properties, it's almost 500 guest rooms and 80,000 square feet of meeting space. So even though we are a tier two destination, we still can host some of those larger groups. Sharon Pare: I was just about to ask that, so thank you for segueing yourself into that. Okay, good to know. Okay. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Yeah. So again, like we said, between the Opal [00:18:00] Sol and Opal Sands, up to 500 guest rooms. TradeWinds is our largest hotel on St. Pete Beach with 768 guest rooms. They can also be very creative because they can put tents on the beach, too, as does the Sheraton Sand Key up in Clearwater Beach. And TradeWinds actually held an event over there with 4,000 people. It's rare that we do something like that, but the ca- capabilities are there. I think the maximum that Sheraton Sand Key has done has been about 1,200 utilizing those tents out on the beach. And that's the wonderful thing about this destination, is that they can utilize different things, meeting all day and then go have their reception or their dinner on the beach with their toes in the sand and a drink in their hand, perhaps. And also, one of the other things that a lot of the groups seem to really enjoy in our destination is that they get the hotels to themselves. So I- I've heard the phrase they like to be a big [00:19:00] fish in a little pond So rather than being in one of those hotels that may have five, six, seven plus meetings going on at the same time, they literally have the whole hotel to themselves. And that's one thing that they really enjoy doing. And then we're also renowned for the different things that we have available in our destination. So we do a lot of, uh, pre/post room nights for the groups because of that bleisure like Jill was talking about. They do like to stay at the end of their conference or at the beginning of the conference. They'll have their family with them or just wanna relax for the weekend after the conference has finished. And we have different places like Tarpon Springs is our Greek sponge docks, and that actually is known for the world's largest Epiphany celebration. And they go out and they will dive for the sponges, which are natural. And oh my God, the food is amazing. It really is . We love our food over here, too. And then we've got Dunedin, which is our little [00:20:00] Scottish village over there, and every April they host the Highland Games. We just had the Valspar tournament up at Innisbrook, which is another r- resort of ours, and we had golfers like Jordan Spieth, Brooks Koepka, and Justin Thomas that were playing there. We have had Tiger Woods play there as well. We just closed up our Sugar Sand Festival on Clearwater Beach. That's 17 days of celebrating Clearwater Beach's most natural assets, the sugar sand and the sunsets. And there was over 1,000 tons of sand and 24,000 square feet of art exhibits. We also just had our Firestone Grand Prix in Downtown St. Petersburg. A little bit like Monaco, they close off the streets of Downtown St. Pete and have the race over there. They literally close down the streets and they build that racetrack in Downtown St. Pete. It goes past the Dali Museum. We did actually get 1.6 million viewers at the Firestone Grand Prix. [00:21:00] So yeah, we have some really cool things that go on down here, and I'm gonna just segue into the Dali Museum because that's one of, one of the other things that we are famous for. We have nine museums in Downtown St. Pete, including the Dali Museum, and Salvador Dali chose Downtown St. Petersburg for the only museum that he has outside of Spain. We also have the Chihuly Museum. Chihuly Museum is the only one outside of Seattle, which is where Dale Chihuly lives. And if you're not familiar with the Chihuly Museum, if you've ever been to the Bellagio in Las Vegas, it's where all the glass art is just everywhere. Beautiful, too. Yes, these are really good. And we have 600 art murals in Downtown St. Pete right now. It's very much a vibrant, just an amazing destination. But you can't beat the beaches, like I said. So you have so many different choices of options, places that you can be I've done site tours with so many clients, and the more I get to know them and feel [00:22:00] what they're looking for, I'm gonna be, "Okay, downtown St. Pete is gonna be for you, St. Pete Beach is gonna be for you, or Clearwater Beach is going to be for you." And that's another thing that we do at Visit St. Pete Clearwater. We live here. We know our destination, so we can help planners like Jill, if she's not quite sure what's gonna be the right fit, we can make recommendations for them. We really can put the two things together. We can help our meeting planners as well find offsite venues. We've got some great offsite venues from sunset dinner cruises. We have some really cool boats that we can take up to 350 people for a dinner cruise right now at Starlight Cruises. We just had St. Pete Athletic Club opened up, and that is pickleball. But their meeting space, believe it or not, is phenomenal. They literally have 18,000 square feet of meeting space in a pickleball venue. So again, we've got restaurants that we can do offsite venues. Clearwater [00:23:00] Marine Aquarium, oh my goodness me. They call it the Wall of Wonder because you can actually place your tables and your chairs in this particular area, and then you havethe whole glass aquarium where you can see the dolphins swimming past while you're having entertainment, while you're having, again, food and beverage for your group. So we have some very cool venues. We can help the planners select everything like that. We highly encourage site visits for everybody. We want them to come down and see the destination. Our planners know their clients, and we know the destination, so you put the two together and it's a perfect combination. And we will assist. We will arrange private transportation from the airport for the clients. We arrange all the accommodations, and we arrange the whole itinerary. And one of our amazing team members will literally take your client from A to B to C to D and be with them for the whole time and answer any questions that they may have. And then like Jill was [00:24:00] talking about as well, we do have a lot of complimentary services available. One of the things that we have is a welcome sign at Tampa International Airport, so it can be "Welcome such and such group." And that's gonna be the first thing that they see when they arrive into our destination. And there are 80 direct nonstop flights into Tampa within the domestic United States, and there's 20 direct nonstop international flights. So Tampa, again, a really easy airport to fly into. Voted the number two airport in the United States. We're very proud of that too. And you are literally 25, 35 minutes to get from the airport to the beaches. And just coming from a couple of conferences myself in Los Angeles and San Diego, boy, that traffic's bad. You're not wrong. So it's a lot easier and a lot faster to get to our beaches, that's for sure. And then the other thing we do with the complimentary services, we have a lot of media and videos available. We even send [00:25:00] out postcards if people want to go to the clients saying, "Save the date. Can't wait to see you in Clearwater. Can't wait to see you in St. Petersburg." Not many people get nice things in the mail anymore, but you can get a really great picture of the St. Pete or the beaches in our destination. And we do have a few incentives available. So if it helps secure the group in our destination, reach out. That's what we're here for. We want our hotels to secure the business. We're there to help both the hotels and the planners. So anything that we can do, we're here for you. Sharon Pare: That's awesome, Stephanie. So thank you so much for that. I wanted to shift over to a little fun section. A few things I wanted to ask about St. Pete Clearwater, and basically give our listeners a cheat sheet for some of the things they should do. Stephanie, you gave us a wealth of knowledge around the things to see, the Guinness Book of World Records, the new hotels. Even Jill didn't know about one, and you gave her the news today, right? You heard it here [00:26:00] today. So Jill and Mihai, I want you guys to participate as well, but I wanna have a little bit of a fun time with this. And Stephanie, I know you've been in St. Pete Clearwater for about 19 years, so you might be our expert on this, but I'd love Jill and Mihai's take as well. So beaches, if you all had to pick one, one at a time, which one would you go to? I- Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I'm gonna jump in real quick over here. Like I said, I've been to so many different countries, and this is absolutely my favorite because of the beautiful white pure sand that we have. We have 35 miles of it, so I can't pick exactly which part. You've gotta pick one, though, Stephanie. Gotta pick one. We g- we need to see a cheat sheet. 35 miles of beaches from St. Pete to Clearwater. How's that? Okay. All right. Jill, what about you? Jill Stone: I like the Gulf areas of Florida 'cause their sand is beautiful. When I actually did take a few minutes last year with my client being at the Wyndham Clearwater, I had five minutes. Yeah, and it was beautiful. And so I gotta say [00:27:00] Clearwater. It really does- That's Clearwater Beach ... and it's not painful to walk on- Right ... when you're trying to get to the water. Sharon Pare: How about you, Mihai? Your eyes lit up earlier when I said, "What is that one beach?" Myha Gallagher : Yes, that one beach absolutely is Clearwater Beach. I am a California girl, grew up in SoCal. And so I never made my way out to Florida until we started working with St. Pete Clearwater. I went out for a meeting, stepped out onto Clearwater Beach, and I was like, "I get it. This is why everyone loves this place so much." Yeah. The sugar sand, that is such a perfect description for it. It is ethereal, soft, amazing. Can't wait to go back. Sharon Pare: And the sunsets too, right? Everyone forgets, like, y- you can't catch that sunset on the east side of Florida, but just make your way out west, you'll watch a dolphin- jumping through on the, in the water and watching that sunset all at the same time, right? Okay, next. Rooftop. Is there a rooftop, a hidden gem rooftop that you would recommend? [00:28:00] Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: The Canopy at The Birchwood, Downtown St. Pete. There we go. Start. All right. Canopy at The Birchwood. All right. Meha, how about Sharon Pare: you? Myha Gallagher : You know, I haven't been on a ton of rooftops in St. Pete/Clearwater also, but someone from the Visit St. Pete team did take me to this speakeasy where you had to walk through... It looked like a laundromat, and then you had to walk behind the laundromat, and you go into this- That's cool ... beautiful speakeasy. I don't remember the name, so if you're listening to this and you wanna go, hit up the Visit St. Pete/Clearwater team. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: It's actually called Dirty Laundry, and it's a really cool place because it looks like a laundromat, but they have a secret door that takes you into the speakeasy. So another great place that we have in Downtown St. Pete. Sharon Pare: That is very cool. That's why it's a speakeasy. Favorite local coffee shop. Stephanie, looks like this one's for you. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Kahwa. It's K-A-H-W-A. Sharon Pare: Beautiful local really tasty coffee. [00:29:00] Okay. Awesome. All right. Famous landmark. Stephanie, I know you mentioned the Dali Museum. If you had to pick a number two, any other famous landmarks that people should be looking at while they're there? Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Oh my goodness me, you're gonna ask me to pick one. Hang on a second. Just one. Just one. First come to mind. I'm gonna say the pier on St. Petersburg. It's relatively new. It's absolutely stunning. There's so many restaurants over there, just so many different things to do on our pier. And again, you can hold a meeting there as well. They actually have 10,000 square feet of space at the pier that you're surrounded by water again- Yep ... on the Tampa Bay Area. Stunning. How about you, Jill? The Don Jill Stone: CeSar. Mm, you see that- Don CeSar ... pink building and you know where you are. Uh, and I, yeah, I was j- like I said, I was just there last year and as soon as we saw it, I was like, "Oh, I know where we are." So again, yeah, [00:30:00] my, one of my favorite landmark anyway. Okay. Myha Gallagher : Meha? I would say the Chihuly. The glass art pieces are incredible and otherworldly and, like Stephanie said, the only other place to see them is either at the Bellagio or in Seattle. And yeah, it's a can't-miss if you go to St. Pete/-Clearwater. Sharon Pare: All right. This one's gonna be a tough one for all of you. Your favorite restaurant. Meha, I'm gonna start with you this time Oh gosh We'll leave Stephanie for last. Myha Gallagher : Um, I gotta say, every restaurant I've eaten at in St. Pete/Clearwater has been fantastic. But the most memorable dining experience I had was actually, it was outside of the Sandpearl Hotel. They had set up those outside tents, and we were dining on this seafood buffet out on the beach, and it was just so incredible. My CEO and I talk about it [00:31:00] all the time because we're big seafood fans, and it was just so special. So any restaurant, and then also dining on seafood on the beach. Jill Stone: Okay. Jill? You can't beat the beach and the seafood. I, uh, actually, the Wyndham's restaurant was really good. I know it sounds crazy to eat in a hotel. But some ... But it was ... They also have a, a patio that is right on the beach. And so we got a chance to do a little bit of both. So I really liked that restaurant. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Stephanie? One of my personal favorites is Caretta's on the Gulf, and it is actually inside the Sandpearl Hotel. But I love their buffets that they do. They do a brunch. They'll do a Thanksgiving. They do a Christmas over there. And the attention to detail and just the standard of their food is superb. Sharon Pare: All right. We're about coming up on time. But what I wanted to ... Some final thoughts, right? So if an association planner listening today is considering [00:32:00] trying a secondary market for the first time, what would you want them to know about St. Pete-Clearwater? Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I would just tell them to just come down and see for themselves. Jill, Meha, anything from Jill Stone: you two? Stephanie's right. They should see it. They should also really consider that because what they've been spending, maybe in some of the larger cities, they could get so much more in a smaller destination. So they really should. And again, the beach. Can't beat it. Myha Gallagher : I'd say St. Pete/Clearwater is a slice of heaven. It turned a California girl into a Florida lover, and I can't say that there's any harder task than that. Thank you all. Sharon Pare: Jill, Meha, Stephanie, this has been such a fun conversation. I appreciate you all joining today and sharing your perspectives. And honestly, it's really exciting to see St. Pete-Clearwater make a name for itself on the map and become a major player [00:33:00] in the meetings and events space. So thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOWw Presents: Industry Partners Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.
#23
May 14 · 42 min
From Data to Decisions: Helping Associations Better Understand Members
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions sits down with Georgina Donahue, Director of Community Innovation and Strategy at Higher Logic, and Rachel Mace, CAE, Director of IT and Database at the National Pest Management Association, to discuss how associations can better understand members and use that insight to drive smarter strategy. They explain how most organizations have plenty of data but little usable intelligence because systems don’t integrate and staff lack a unified, individual-level view across programs, leading to decisions based on gut instinct and missed warning signs like “silent churners.” The guests distinguish reports from behavioral signals and patterns that predict engagement and renewal, share examples of targeted outreach and pandemic-era webinars boosting recruitment and retention, and discuss using engagement scoring, dashboards, and guidance to act at scale. They recommend auditing where data lives, focusing on high-signal sources, and making incremental improvements rather than chasing perfect data. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/QCQXIDc_cYI Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, Partnerships Director at Highroad, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode is sponsored by Higher Logic. Today, we're excited to welcome Georgina Donahue, Director of Community Innovation and Strategy at Higher Logic, along with Rachel Mace, CAE, Director of IT and Database at the National Pest Management Association. Our conversation today is about how associations can better understand their members and turn that insight into smarter strategy. Georgina, Rachel, welcome to the show. So I think this is something a lot of associations are quietly dealing with, so why don't we jump in? So let's start with something most associations don't want to say out loud. Most of them are making decisions about their members based on very [00:01:00] little actual insight. Why is that, and how common is it? Georgina Donahue: I think that most associations have more data than they've ever had, right? They have data coming in from all over the place. They have their AMS records, their event history. They have a community platform. They have email opens, right? So they have this huge bulk of data, but the problem is that almost none of it actually talks to each other, so they end up flying blind even though they have this embarrassment of riches, but they can't access it. They don't know which members are thriving and which ones are drifting, which ones are gonna silently churn in a couple months from now. And the problem actually is not just small organizations who don't have the resources to wrangle the data. It's large, sophisticated tech stacks see this problem as well because the data exists, but it's just really siloed Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, I would have to echo that. There's a lot of silos. [00:02:00] Almost every time I start a job at an association or even at a vendor that services associations, the first thing we have to deal with is untangle the glut of information that they have, what they want to actually access and use. And then we also have to talk through, okay, once we decide what we're gonna use, how are we gonna get it there? Integrations remain such a huge problem with most associations. We find that our data lives in completely separate places, and that data doesn't pipe into new places very easily. So that's been a big issue, and it's not the association staff's fault. We are not integration engineers. We are not high-level data scientists. We came here to work in the nonprofit industry and serve our members. We don't have a background in that expertise. So that data mess exists everywhere, large associations or small associations, and we find that more and more association professionals, whether they like to admit it or not, are starting to realize that they can't make decisions based on the gut anymore, which is how we were making decisions.[00:03:00] I can even recall way back in the 20-teens encountering a situation where an association professional said, "I have an idea. We're gonna use the power of social credit, so to speak, to get people to reach out to each other and encourage them to join the association." But the problem was this professional was working in a trade association environment, so the other member associations or prospect member associations were competitors, and it's very hard to convince a competitor to join the same association as you. But their gut said, "I've seen referral campaigns work throughout the private sector or in professional societies where it's the individual that's the member." So they went with their gut, and that campaign didn't work out, and they thought this is a personal failure. It's not. It's just you didn't have access to the insights and data that you needed to safely feel you could experiment with those types of campaigns in a way that's a bit more controlled with a bit more information behind it Georgina Donahue: Yeah. I think the other thing that we're seeing in the space is that [00:04:00] as our industry standards for social interaction and for engagement with for-profit brands, for social brands, anything, it rises, right? We're used to having the Netflix algorithm know exactly what show we want to watch next. We're used to logging into a new platform and selecting our content preferences immediately, and then having really sophisticated algorithms understand who we are, know who we are. So at the same time that our association professionals are trying to sort through this, sometimes relying on that gut instinct, the base of members, their standards are rising because they're used to it in other areas, right? And so that gut instinct is becoming less and less effective for them because there was some grace, there was some buffer there, right? And now members, because of what they're experiencing in the consumer space, do not have [00:05:00] that grace that they're willing to offer. They're a little bit more frustrated, and they expect us to know who they are, and they expect us to tailor and segment our message specifically to their journey Sharon Pare: I wanna dig into the gut instinct part a little bit later, but you, Georgina, talked about something you call the silent churner. Can you explain what that is? Is that like the quiet quitter? I- is that a little bit similar? Tell us a little bit about that. Georgina Donahue: It kind of is. It is. It's the most dangerous member that you have, because everybody has the members that are squeaky wheels, that maybe they're frustrated, maybe there's some dissatisfaction, and they are telling you the areas that they would like to see improvement. While sometimes a sassy email might be difficult to receive in the moment, they are giving you very clear instructions about what they need in order to continue to receive value from the association. The silent churner is the most dangerous. They just go quiet, and then by the time they don't renew, they've already made the decision not to renew three or [00:06:00] four months ago, and they've already been quietly stepping away, so they stop attending events, they stop posting in the community, they stop sending sassy emails asking for their hopes and dreams to be fulfilled, right? And many associations don't find out that a member has churned until the renewal doesn't come through, and it's way too late to make a change because there's already a history of taking a step back and looking for other resources for support. Rachel Mace, CAE: And this is an area where I feel like associations, their gut actually is probably correct. They already know who's not gonna renew inside. We know that if you're a new member and you don't do enough with us in that first year, you're probably not going to renew. We know if you're an existing member and your engagement falls off, we know you're not going to renew. We know if you're nearing retirement, you're not gonna renew. So we in our guts understand and know who isn't going to renew, but the challenge is identifying them proactively and being able to do something about it six months before that renewal cycle [00:07:00] hits. Because once you get to the renewal cycle, it's a little too late to ask someone to open up their wallet and invest in membership again. So we really need intelligence to tell us, "Hey, I've flagged these bottom 20% of engagers. I need those people to do something, anything." And what they really need, I've always told this to people, is you need to put them in a low barrier to access activity, not something that's gonna require a huge outlay of cash. If I'm new to ASAE, I'm not gonna tell you to go to the ASAE Annual Conference. That's a huge outlay of cash. But I might say, "Hey, why don't you go into ASAE Collaborate and ask a burning question? It's a private, safe space where you can ask something that maybe you wouldn't wanna ask on LinkedIn or publicly." It's a great way to get me engaged, give me something sticky to do, and maybe I will think about that as I renew next year. It's not the big ask, it's the ask that's practical and reasonable for me, a low engager. But we as association professionals, [00:08:00] we know that the low engagers, those are the ones who are gonna silently churn, if anyone Sharon Pare: I want to unpack this a little bit more, and I know you started to dig into this a little bit too, Rachel, but what's actually causing this? Why can't most associations see the full picture of their members? Georgina Donahue: I think the reason why it's so endemic across the entire sector is not because association professionals don't want to have a better view, or it hasn't occurred to them that a better view would be advantageous. I think that they're really, they really want this. But the tools that they use were never designed to talk to each other by default, right? And a lot of times you're making really the decisions about your technology choices, about your technology s- stack. You are choosing best-in-class tools, right? And the best events platform and the best member management platform and the best education platform, but they weren't designed together. They were designed separately. And so it means that [00:09:00] no single staff member has a unified view of the individual member, right? The membership team sees one thing, the education team sees another thing, the events team has a different perspective. It's all broken up, and it's organized by program, right? I can see which events had the most attendees, but it's not broken out by the individual human, by the person. I don't necessarily just want to see, okay, which event topic was the most popular. I want to see, okay, who are my bottom 20% and which events did they say no to or yes to, and what kinds of conversations in the community pulled them in, and what kind of emails were most valuable to them? It's this lack of a unified view by individuals across programs is just really elusive. Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, and it's not a problem with the association staff, although they often take the blame and feel guilty when they talk about this issue, but the actual issue is [00:10:00] an architecture problem. These platforms are sold to you, and one of the things that they're trying to give you is the best possible user experience. So they want you to have the best possible user experience. So their investment when they deliver these tools to you, these best-in-class tools, is often on that user experience. Integrations is often a place where th- we forget, hey, we have to integrate this data, or we have to pull this data into some sort of central mechanism where we can see the whole picture of the whole member, and that's often thrown by the wayside because we wanna make sure that, A, member-facing things are good, and B, association staff user experience is good. But when I worked in the vendor space, a lot of times integrations were the most frustrating things we had ever had conversations about because we had everything we needed to give the association staff what, what they were asking for, but then we would get held up by simple things like, "Oh, we can't integrate that data because that data doesn't really exist there. It's a calculated column." And I'm like, "We can't get that calculated column?" And they're like, "No, we have to create a new [00:11:00] table." And you would go down these rabbit holes of these crazy blockers, and you're like, "Wow, how is it 2020 whatever, and I still cannot integrate my data relatively seamlessly?" And it's something that I'm not even seeing AI do a good job of addressing. These integrations still continue to be a challenge. And I know that when I worked at American Bankers Association, when I first got there, I thought, "Well, I will have so many more resources to integrate the data and see that big picture of the member." And I remember walking in there at that big association with all the investment they can make in technology, and it's worse. They have more systems, more layers, more silos. I'm like, "Wait, I can't even figure out who's engaging with each other in the community, and I work in membership." So I-- it can be even worse at big associations because you have layers of silos of people that are like, "I'm not gonna make you an admin in my system," or, "That's my system, and I don't really wanna pipe that data back there." So we have this huge problem, and it's compounded by [00:12:00] silos. It's compounded by architecture. It's compounded by integrations. So even in 2026, where we expect AI will solve all our problems, this is something that I'm not sure that AI at this point can solve. Sharon Pare: So it really sounds more less a people problem and more of a systems architecture problem, right? So I guess let's build on that. There's a difference between having data and having insight. What does member intelligence actually mean in practice, and how is it different from just pulling a report? Georgina Donahue: The data points that you gather are just the stuff that your systems log, right? The logins, the registrations, the email opens, all of that, right? The signals and the insights are the story that multiple of those data points together paint for you, right? And you need to be able to pull from many different mediums in order to see the story that those data points are telling you. So behavioral signals are what actually predicts [00:13:00] engagement and renewal, and that's the narrative insight that you're really looking for. So the signals that matter most aren't demographics or clicks or logins or sessions or anything like that. They're the patterns, right? The login frequency, the types of content that's being consumed. And so that's the difference between data and intelligence. It's the context. So a login, if you tell me a login to an online community, I can't really do very much with that. But if you show me a member who logged in every single week for six months and then stopped logging in at all three months ago, that's a signal. Did the email go dead? Did you get a new job? Are you starting to feel like this is not the right place for you? Are you feeling boxed out? Is there a clique going on that you don't wanna enter into, right? Things like that. And so those are the types of insights that we're looking for. I'll give an example, and I know Rachel has a really good example of [00:14:00] this too that she'll share. So I previously worked for an education organization, and we provided educational sessions and training, and there was an online community for all of the alumni of that program. And we had resources about each of the courses in the community, and we were able to manually, mind you, because the architecture wasn't supporting us either, we were able to pull a list of everyone who had reviewed community library content on topic A, and then we cross-referenced it with everybody who had taken the course on topic A. And we found about 50% of the people who were viewing those library resources hadn't taken the course, and we wanted to drive education. So we created a targeted outreach campaign and said, "Hey, I can see that you're really interested in this topic. I would love to support your development and ongoing education. I have a course for you. It was so successful, Sharon. It was crazy. We were all [00:15:00] delighted. We had a 50% close rate and success rate on that course, and people were genuinely grateful and so happy. And so that is a story that we built from the data, and then a success-driving approach that we used to bring something really personal that came from that, that we never would've gotten from just how many people viewed library documents, right? I know that Rachel has examples of this as well, when we finally wrangled the data enough to paint that picture. Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, and I'll lead with the example. So I had the privilege of working with American Bankers during the pandemic, and I say privilege because what I witnessed in terms of how they came together to serve their members was nothing short of jaw-dropping. So as we went into the beginnings of the pandemic, we had some staff members become subject matter experts on what was going on with the virus, just general stuff from the CDC, and really being thoughtful about how they delivered that messaging. It was a [00:16:00] source of comfort for the staff and a source of kind of that predictable, what's the next step? Where are we going from here? Is there a plan? And that person and the people supporting that person realized that this was so beneficial to the staff. The staff were giving a lot of good feedback. They took that feedback and said, "Maybe we should be offering this to our members." And they started these webinars offering that to that m- to those members. And as we're seeing these members hop on these calls, we're also seeing that non-members are hopping on the calls, 'cause we didn't feel, at that point, it was a crisis, we didn't feel we should be exclusionary. What happened was a lot of these non-members getting on the call saw our commitment to delivering timely, relevant, and good information to our members. They became members. We saw a jump in our retention rate and a jump in our recruitment rate as a result immediately during and following the pandemic because they were like, "Look, this is an organization that's going to support us even through the worst of times." And because we were [00:17:00] providing these resources and being intentional in how we evaluated that data, are we getting non-members coming? Are we getting members coming? Okay, these five non-members came. Can someone give them a call? Because we were taking action and being very agile in what we were doing with that data, we were able to break records that I don't think even the highest level of management thought were possible, and that's because data is not about reporting. It is not about sending a metric to your boss and saying, "Okay, we're up 200 members this year." Great. Awesome. It's about informing. We're up 200 members this year because it appears people really love the webinar series we did about the state of the industry. That's the story. That's the why. And if you cannot isolate these things to the why, and you're just reporting, you'll never move to that next step of growing. And associations do need to grow because there's a lot of competition out there. And Georgina said earlier, the expectation is that you're listening to your members' behaviors. You're watching [00:18:00] what they do with you and adjusting your strategy to match that energy of what they're expressing to you via behaviors what they want. Sharon Pare: Let's take a quick break for a word from our episode sponsor, Higher Logic. Higher Logic unifies your community, marketing, learning, events, and more into one connected engagement platform so every member touchpoint feels personal. With AI-powered campaigns and vibrant online communities, your members feel seen, supported, and excited to engage every day. Because everything works together, your team spends less time managing technology and more time advancing your mission. Plus, you get built-in strategic guidance and hands-on support to boost retention and turn passive members into passionate advocates. See how Higher Logic is revolutionizing engagement by booking your demo at higherlogic.com. So we talk about that bottom 20%, [00:19:00] so let's flip that for a second. On the flip side of the at-risk members, you also talk about power users, your most engaged members. Are most associations actually leveraging those people? Georgina Donahue: Yes, many are, but many wish that they were able to do so to a greater capacity, right? Because engagement data is not just gonna tell you about who to save, and we've talked a lot about mitigating risks so far in this conversation. But engagement data is not just about who to save. It tells you who to invest in further, who to really give extra love and care and development to because they are really ready for it, and there's a benefit to your member, and there's a benefit to the organization as well, right? And so the real heart and the real strength of any association is absolutely its members. And so everybody wants to find a way to leverage members for advocacy, for mentorship, for volunteer pipelines, for peer-to-peer recruitment, for board [00:20:00] leadership positions, anything, right? And that's where the real strength and kind of flywheel of success comes from. So when you can identify the top 5%, 10% of engaged members, it's really likely that you are looking at a list of your next committee chairs, of your conference speakers, of your community moderators, right? And so if we can find a way to identify them and then throw more and more engagement opportunities to help level them up in their engagement maturity, then that is a win-win for everybody. It feels really good to members to be recognized for your investment and for your desires to grow alongside an association, and it strengthens the organization to have more insight, more knowledge directly coming from the member base. Rachel Mace, CAE: And we at the National Pest Management Association do something I actually don't see at associations very often, but it's modeled a little bit after [00:21:00] DELP. But I don't want to say modeled after DELP, because I don't want to not give them credit. They have done this phenomenal thing, and this is where they identify people who are relatively engaged, and they put them into a program that prepares them for leadership in a board or volunteer leadership in general. It moves them to the next step educationally so that they always have an incoming class of people who are ready to be the leaders of that industry for the next generation. So one of the things that you wanna look for when you're looking for who might fit well isn't, "I've checked all the boxes." That's a big thing, especially at Association Linux, we would get clients that say, "I'll look for someone who's done a little bit of everything." That doesn't necessarily mean that your pool of volunteers should come from there. Sometimes your pool of volunteers comes from somebody who attends the annual meeting many times. Sometimes that pool of volunteers comes from somebody who always attends your legislative day. You don't wanna misinterpret that the fact that someone's not engaging in all [00:22:00] the pieces of the pie as some sort of signal that they're not ready to engage as a volunteer leader. It's a very big problem I think we have, because we're used to wanting to see parts of a whole, and we're like, "Okay, if you complete all five things, you're ready to go." Mm. But you need to meet people where they are. So when you look into your data, you wanna discover patterns. Rachel Mace goes to annual meeting every year, and sometimes she pops into MMCT, but she doesn't always go on to Collaborate, or she doesn't always attend webinars. Does that mean that she can't be an effective board member? No, it means that maybe she values more in-person encounters than digital connection. So it's very important when you're looking through engagement data to realize that there's always going to be some level of interpretation here. Am I looking for somebody who checks all the boxes? Probably not. You're looking for somebody who's engaged, and engaged in the way that fits best for them. And that's how you'll discover, when you go through this process, you're gonna have a hidden gem pile, where you're like, "Oh, wait a minute, [00:23:00] this person, we would have never considered as a volunteer, but they really should be a volunteer because they are participating in a meaningful way. It's just maybe they're an introvert, and they're the inverse of Rachel, and they only want to participate digitally." They can still be an effective leader, even if they're more of a digital participator than an in-person participator. So it's very important as you look at your engagement data not to get too, I call it perfectionist. Like, with your, with, check all the boxes and do all the things. No. Look for those hidden gems. Look for those insights where somebody is almost all digital. Think about different ways to look at that data, not just, you did an annual meeting, you did the Collaborate, you did this, you did that. Think of it more of, is somebody clustering their engagement in a certain modality? Are they clustering their engagement in a certain season? Because they could still be an amazing and effective volunteer or a highly engaged member that helps build your membership further. Sharon Pare: So you've described a data problem that's really an architecture problem. Everything is siloed, right? We've talked about that at the beginning of [00:24:00] this podcast. What does it actually take to fix that? Where does that technology come in? Georgina Donahue: It's a really good question. It's one that I am really excited about and think a lot about. We've talked a lot about how most associations, the reason that they're data dark isn't a lack of motivation, it's architecture, right? These tools are not designed to share information. You can have five great platforms, and you still have a zero unified view of who your member is, right? And so it can be very tempting to be like, "Okay, my tools aren't talking to each other. I need different tools," right? The fix is not to replace everything. The fix is not to rip out all of your tools and try to slot in new ones. It's convergence. It's creating a single space where all the signals from your existing systems can really come together so that then you do have the ability for an individual staff person to look at one screen and see the full member picture, right? And so at Higher Logic, we [00:25:00] know this is the path that is required, creating that converged space for existing tools, because we've invested so deeply in customer partnerships. So at Higher Logic, we spearhead something, a group that's called the Customer Innovation Lab, and we have enlisted our members, our association members and customers, to really deeply co-create with us so that we're building exactly what they need, right? And so at any software organization, you need to know exactly what the problems are and exactly where the sticking points are in order to provide a solution that is actually going to create meaningful change. One of the most exciting things about my role and the way that I interact with associations is by participating in this Customer Innovation Lab and co-creating alongside, right? And because of the fact that we haven't just assumed what's necessary, we're using feedback and ideation sessions that are fueling Higher Logic to [00:26:00] develop a new product. We are creating a 360-degree view of your member, so a single source of truth that pulls together all of your members' activities across Higher Logic tools and systems, and every other system that your association uses, right? So you pull in the data from your AMS, from your email platform, your event tools, anywhere that you are gathering data and any surface area where those interactions are happening with your members. We have built this tool with integrations at the center and visibility at the center. So for the first time- You can come in and you can look at one record, and you can see the complete picture of that member. And so you can finally know your member as well as they expect you to and as well as you want them to. So you have your community behavior, your event history, content consumption, all of it in a single place. So I'm really excited to have [00:27:00] worked so closely with our customers and with association professionals to craft this solution and offer it back to the people that are doing such important work. Rachel Mace, CAE: And with that being said, you're giving us something new to work with, but the onus is on the association. We're seeing this shift where vendors are like, "We want to give you what you're looking for." Then when we get what we're looking for, we as association professionals have a big job to do, and that first job is to make sure that our staff, 'cause architecture is a problem, but silos are, too. Our staff need to understand, hey, here is this new tool. We don't need to silo our Higher Logic or our AMS. We don't need to silo these tools. We need to encourage staff members to get into these tools and start using that data. And if you sit in a role like I do, information technology and database, which is a big many hat role actually, your job also is to serve just like you would serve a member, is to serve your [00:28:00] staff and say, "Look, here is a tool you can use. Here's what you can get from it. Let me know where the gaps exist," and encourage them to take some experimental leaps into these tools and start making informed decisions. Because a lot of times you'll deliver a tool to someone, and I know this from the vendor side, and they'll say, "Okay, now what?" The “now what” is you, and we need to find a way to come together as association staff. It's not, "This is my member data over here" anymore. It's, "This is our member. How can we each make a difference serving them?" So part of the role of an IT professional in the association space is to socialize using that data, starting to experiment with that data, and making informed decisions using that data. It- the onus has to be on someone. Someone has to take ownership of that, or that data will just sit there. You'll have an amazing tool, and that data will just sit there. So it's ex- incredibly important that as we get tools like this, not only do we [00:29:00] use them in the roles that are like the community manager, but we encourage the rest of the staff at large to take part in using these tools. And then as we get using these tools, if there are deficits, rather than stop using the tool, it's important to relay back to our partners, like Higher Logic or other partners in the space, "Hey, you've built this tool. I really like this tool, but here's where it's not serving me." Because if you don't give that feedback to these vendors, they can't possibly know what you want. They'll just know that you stopped using it, but they won't know the why. So it is on us also to give data back to them and say, "Okay, I'm having a hard time getting my membership and meetings team using this data because..." and then you answer that question. Sharon Pare: So now you have a unified member view, but most asso- associations have thousands of members, sometimes maybe tens of thousands. How do you actually act on all that data at scale? How do you go from visibility to strategy? Rachel Mace, CAE: So this is something that frustrates me as an association professional because [00:30:00] a lot of tools will get you right to that point. I've even worked with several very brilliant people on a predictive tool, and it hands you on a silver platter the data. It says, "Oh, these are the people that are likely to renew. These are the people not likely to renew." You get that, and then your customer said, "Okay, now what?" You're like, "Well, do something with it." They're like, "What do I do?" And this is because association professionals have a very unfair lot in life because they are expected to be data scientists, strategic professionals, executives. They're expected to be so many roles, all those hats we always talk about. But at the same time, when you get all this data, you're like, "I don't want to put anything at risk by making a decision I shouldn't make, and this is a little outside of my normal purview." So you have this discomfort with what do I even do with this information? Georgina Donahue: And I completely agree with Rachel that visibility is step one, but then what are you supposed to do with [00:31:00] it after? Once you have the information, what's the next step? And so the answer there is really surfacing and support. And we, as a vendor that supports associations, think a lot about that. Not just how do I hand the data over, but how do I fully support this group of professionals and help guide them through the best choices based on the data that we have, right? So one of the things that we've been working on, and that I have the honor of working on directly, is using dashboards and engagement scoring to let the data tell you where to focus. So you shouldn't have to dig through every single record. The system should show you. The system should say, "Here's your at-risk members, here's your power users, here's your enga- engagement that's trending, and here's the next step. Here's what most people tend to do when they have these types of results. Here are the best practices for how you fix this problem. Here [00:32:00] is the triaging phase," right? "Your data shows this. Here's the diagnosis. Here's the most likely approach that is going to create a positive outcome for you." So that's one of the things that we're building with Higher Logic's new suite of dashboards, specifically for the community product, is really surfacing all of the engagement signals that matter across your full community member base and pairing them with the actions and next steps, right? We don't just want to give people a chart. We want to give them a pathway, guidance on how to interpret your data, validated recommendations for next steps based on years of community data from our user group, HUG, right? All of the next steps, the signals, the things that point you towards the areas to focus next. And that way you can really support your membership base without burning out your staff, asking them to do 200 different jobs at an A+ level 100% of the time. Of course, support is [00:33:00] required. Rachel Mace, CAE: And I'm very excited about this development because a lot of associations, even big ones, don't have a really big community staff looking at that data, working with that data, fostering the engagement in the platform. So having this is like having an unpaid assistant on your staff. Now you have somebody kind of serving up this information to you so that you can just be action-oriented. More actions, more experimentation, more work, as opposed to more chasing numbers or reporting numbers. So I'm extremely enthusiastic to see what comes out of this. Sharon Pare: Because visibility alone isn't enough, right? You want to actually do something with it. All right, so let's make this real. Rachel, let's turn this to you. Let's talk about what actually changes day to day for association staff when they have this kind of member intelligence. How does a job look different? Rachel Mace, CAE: So one of the things that we were working on in Association Analytics, myself and Heather were talking through what do we inform people about what their job will look like? Because a lot of [00:34:00] times there's a little bit of fear. Okay, I have all these tools now that are doing part of my day-to-day. It's painful work. No one loves doing VLOOKUPs all day, but at the same time, you're like, "What am I going to do next?" I want to give you hope. This means that you get to use the whole part of your brain. Your job is no longer reacting to data, reacting to numbers. Now you're proactive. Now you get to be strategic. You get to grow, you get to experiment. You get to actually move the needle on what members want and value. And if something doesn't, you can factor in, "If this doesn't work out, we'll pivot to this." Factor in your pivots. This will make your career so much more robust. Now you're becoming an expert in these types of decisions, as opposed to a reactor who reports numbers. And if you really want to grow as a professional, it's important for you to get ahead of reaction and start thinking proactively about doing something new. One of the things that really attracted me to NPMA was that even though they have data challenges, they're extremely proactive. They're like, "Let's get [00:35:00] ahead of this. Members seem to be talking about this. I see enthusiasm behind this." They look out at the marketplace, and they react to those inputs, even though they have to do a lot of it manually, because they are essentially a member-driven decision engine, not a member-driven reporting engine. And they spend less of their time digging and sifting through numbers, and now that they've hired me, I can dig and sift a little bit for them so that they can actually get some validation behind these programs. But they run on all cylinders member facing. Member facing is the ultimate and first priority, and I would love to see more of that in the association space, because a lot of times we get stuck in our job or we're just reporting internally. We're almost invisible. But once you get out there, your entire staff is fostering relationships with the members that they serve, you're going to see that your members become obsessed with your association. They're like, "This is somewhere I want to be. I want to be a part of this." Naturally, just by you engaging in that way with your members, your membership will start becoming more sticky. [00:36:00] Your meetings will have a feel of authenticity and enthusiasm that they didn't have before. So it's important to embrace that part of that slugging through reports may be a p- a thing of the past. Embrace these tools and get out there and start producing things that your members can see and give you feedback on, ultimately value. Sharon Pare: For an association that's still flying blind right now, no unified views, decisions based on that gut instinct we talked about earlier, what's the one thing you'd tell them to do first? Georgina Donahue: I think they're gonna take this advice, Sharon, because the picture and the beautiful vision of the future that Rachel just painted is so exciting, and I'm betting that folks are gonna be really galvanized by that. I would say that the first step is do an overview, take an-- Start with an audit of where your member data actually lives today. And I'm not talking about the kind of hopeful interpretation of where it should be or the vision of the [00:37:00] future just yet. Where is it actually? And list every system that knows something about a member that you use to make decisions about serving your members, right? And then ask which of those systems has the richest signal source. Where are you getting the insights from? Where does the story start to jump out at you from in terms of those systems? For most associations, it's community behavior that is the m- that is the richest, the logins, the posts, the replies, and also event data, what people are attending, because those signals are reflecting active engagement more than passive receipt, right? So that tends to be where it will come from. But of course, look at what makes sense for you. It might be different in your association, so look at that. And then, of course, I also recommend keep an eye on us. Keep an eye on Higher Logic. This is gonna be a really exciting second half of this year, and I am so jazzed to bring this to the space, [00:38:00] because that unified view of your member that is deeply built on visibility, highly sophisticated integrations that you're supported through, as well as dashboards and data that walks you through the next steps, is gonna be an incredible game changer. And there's all sorts of, of kind of fun and really powerful features that are in there. Dynamic list building, show me everyone who this story applies to, those types of things, as well as automations. And of course, there's a little AI mixed in there, too, as every new product has. And so I'm really excited to see what types of changes happen there. But for today, start with where the data actually lives. Look for the systems that are giving you the richest signals and the most compelling stories. Rachel Mace, CAE: I totally agree, and I will add a piece of advice that I have said for years and I wish that more people would take to heart. And I'm talking to myself first because this was a hard point for me to change in my own personal professional journey. [00:39:00] I am the culprit of this more than probably anyone else, but stop chasing perfection in data to make decisions. The longer you slug over validating data, the longer you go through the process of, is this the right data? Is it perfect? Most people also are fighting over the last 5% of data and then not making decisions because the last 5% isn't correct. Instead, enough for a trend, that's all you need to start making decisions. Stop chasing perfection. Get good enough to make an incremental improvement and make those incremental improvements, observe, and then improve more. I have a prioritization board right now, and it's all based on incrementalism. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel with our tech stack overnight. It's let's use this one feature. In fact, I'll be finding people at Higher Logic Super Forum to ask a couple of questions to make the user experience for our staff members better on the Higher Logic side because I want incremental improvements so we can continue progressing how we use these tools. [00:40:00] So today you could go look at your members up for renewal if that's the time of year for you, or if this is the time of year where you're opening up registration for a major conference in the fall, look for one incremental improvement you might be able to make to that process. Can I send a better letter to my members before I even invoice them? Can I send them a quick survey or some sort of communication? Can I normalize talking about what we've done throughout the association throughout the year before I send out the invoice so they know, hey, I'm not just asking you for money, I have delivered for you this year. Do one thing, monitor it, look at it. Don't wait for perfect data and say, "Look, data's pointing to this being pretty effective. Let's expand on that." Incrementalism, stop chasing perfection, and I think you will see a huge payoff from that effort. Sharon Pare: Rachel, Georgina, this has been a really incredible conversation. I know we could talk more about it, and I know you've got a big conference next week to be able to really [00:41:00] dig into this with your users and of course your clients as well. There's a lot of really practical insight here for associations, so again, thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents Industry Partner Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. We want to give a big thanks again to our episode sponsor, Higher Logic. For more information or to book a demo, visit higherlogic.com. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at [00:42:00] associationsnow.com.
#22
April 23 · 31 min
What geopolitical disruption means for associations
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP, CEO of the Risk and Insurance Management Society, is joined by Francisco Gómez, Founder and CEO of Factum Global, and Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE, Senior Director of Data and Insights at YPO, for a timely conversation on how geopolitical disruption is reshaping the association landscape. They explore the slowdown of trade globalization, increasing travel and visa challenges impacting events and engagement, and the growing tension between taking action and staying silent as political issues intersect with mission-driven work. The discussion emphasizes the importance of clear, grounded communication with boards, along with practical strategies like scenario planning and tabletop exercises to prepare for uncertainty. The group also examines how associations can stay agile without compromising their core mission, including the role of AI in monitoring trusted information sources and the value of incorporating diverse global perspectives. As the conversation unfolds, they point to a more fragmented, multipolar world, rising cyber and data risks, and evolving member expectations—offering insight into how association leaders can navigate what comes next. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/hc8BmpdGDhw Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Gary LaBranche, Chief Executive Officer of RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society. I am delighted to be joined on this podcast with Francisco Gómez, founder and CEO of Factum Global, a boutique consulting firm specializing in international expansion, market analysis, and strategic growth. Also, joining us is Pietro Macchiarella, senior director, data and Insights at YPO, the world's largest community of chief executives that come together to become better leaders and better people. I've said a little bit about each of you, but if you could tell us a little bit more, starting with you, Francisco. Francisco Gómez: Thank you, Gary. Pleasure to be here with you and Pietro. As you said, I founded Factum Global, a firm that [00:01:00] specializes in helping both for-profit companies as well as associations and nonprofits expanding internationally. We focus on truly helping organizations understand where to go, how to do it, and how to sustain that growth, and doing this for the last 20 years or so, and delighted to be here. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Excellent, Pietro. Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: Thank you Gary. I'm Pietro. Good to be here with both of you. As you said, Gary, I work for YPO, which is the largest organization of CEOs. We have 37,000 member members in hundred 40 countries, so as international as it gets. And myself, I am very international. I've grown up in Europe, I've lived in three different countries in Europe and then moved to the US about 20 years ago. I'm also the chair of the ASAE International Association Advisory Council, which right now is a great place to be because we are the center of, of the storm in a way, supporting associations in their international experience or trying to international.[00:02:00] Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Fantastic. Both of you obviously have a tremendous non-North American experience, and I'm just curious. Currently the world is experiencing what we, in the risk management community, call geopolitical disruption, which is a fancy way of saying chaos is abounding in the our current world today and associations and corporations. Consumers and people in business have to try to navigate all of that, and that's uncharted territory to say the least. Pietro is, your group is international as it gets. What does geopolitical disruption mean? How are you in seeing it impact YPO? Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: So first of all, disclaimer from the lawyers: These are my personal opinions and not the ones of my employer. I will say the one, some of the assumptions that we are taking for granted up until now are gone. If you look at it as being a constant. Since the, at least the 1990s, uh, I think the, [00:03:00] there is an index, I think it's the World Bank has an index that shows the trade ness where you look basically at the imports and export globally. And you divided by the, the GDP, the global GDP and the index has been growing like crazy. In fact, I think it's being twice as fast as, as a global GDP growth in the past 20 years. And so. We went from, again, trade being about 30% of global GDP to being 60% or more. And then suddenly this has come to a halt. Everything is being questioned again. And so obviously there's a, this has an impact on any membership organization. In fact, I feel like we are actually more impacted than our members. Uh, because if you think about the, the true political uncertainty affects the, the members themselves. So their companies, if you're a trade organization or in our case a business organization affects the way you operate the, the association and also affects all the members interact with each other. So it's a, it's a triple head and [00:04:00] obviously that that impacts everything that you do. At the same time, I'm the eternal optimist and one thing that I do say is the problems are often opportunities and if very often we are. Nice to have for members, all of us in the association space. But when there is a crisis, we become actually a must have if we are relevant and if we are relevant to what they need at the moment. So I do think that right now what I see is actually a bigger relevance for organizations like ours because we are, we are helping members when they need us. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: That's interesting. So if you are truly valuable, uh, and relevant, you'll be more valuable and relevant in times of poly crisis or chaos, or when the world is not going according to what we had thought it would. Francisco respond to that. Are you seeing that in your practice? Francisco Gómez: Yes, of course. I do think that the main thing, however, is that for associations, your political disruption is truly no longer [00:05:00] something that is happening out there. I think we used to see that as a side thing where we're gonna keep this in scenario planning and we're gonna think about the what ifs, but it was not as real and it is now showing up in a very practical ways. When you think about travel decisions, event planning, member expectations, partner relationships, sanctions, they are privacy concerns. Reputation, right? So it's all over the place. And what makes it especially difficult is that associations have traditionally tried to stay away from politics. But today I think that this is much harder because there is risk not only in taking action, but also in not taking action. And that creates tension because associations want to focus on policy and not politics, but in a lot of cases it are now intertwined. So the real challenge is not just whether to speak. But how do we speak in a way that is consistent with mission and values? In the past, many associations tried to stay away and above [00:06:00] politics, but today's silence can be read as a statement too, right? So that's something that I think most associations are wrestling with right now. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: So you touched on two, I think, very important pieces there. One. One is that external issues really are internal, even down to when and how we travel. That's a pretty internal, pretty internal issue. And then secondly, the whole idea that you, by not engaging, you are saying something by not speaking out, by not engaging with the chaotic world as it is that can be read, can be viewed as negatively as if you said something. And I think that's especially true the more. That the association presents to the world, the more engaged with the world. So I was thinking as you were talking, I was thinking for RIMS, one of the ways that we primarily relate to the world is through our certification program, which is growing more rapidly outside of North America than inside North America. Uh, but also through our convention, which we call Risk World, we bring about [00:07:00] 11,000 people together every year. And Risk World just isn't an educational conference. It's a commercial marketplace. It is the world's largest commercial insurance B2B marketplace, and people from all over the world come there to place their insurance, to buy insurance, the commercial insurance. So it's actually a very critical part of the whole value proposition to the commercial insurance world. But this year we're seeing a definite impact on some people not being able to get. A visas or not being able to get visas in time to come to the convention in, in Chicago, uh, in Philadelphia also, one of our students, we student groups, we have a, with our partner, Spencer Educational Foundation, we provide a platform for, uh, international student competition in risk management and one of the universities from Africa. I'm not able to get a visa so far. So we're trying to work through those issues, but this, this constant chaos that we're seeing, the changes [00:08:00] of rules, regulations, consumer preference in, in the case of Canada, we're also seeing significant pullback from our Canadian friends who just don't want to deal with the American economy right now. How are you communicating those kinds of risks to your stakeholders, to your leaders and board members and others that are important to your organizations? Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: So I think that there is a difference between maybe concern and panic, and I think panic happens when there's no plan. My, my opinion of that's when leadership to step in, when, particularly when talking to the board, it's really about transparency and having a plan. So do some scenario planning. Look at what we know, what we don't know, what potentially the consequences of things will be. These are, I think this is the way you moderate some of the risks. Uh, otherwise, again, panic kicks in and that's never a good thing because usually decisions made under panic are not ideal.[00:09:00] Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: That's interesting. Uh, Francisco? Francisco Gómez: Yeah, I think I agree with everything. Uh, Piera is saying, I think the key is to communicate in a way that is candid but not alarming. The boards are, and the stakeholders in general do not need drama. They need context. They need scenario thinking. You were talking about that piera and clarity about what the organization is watching. I usually think in terms of three questions, what is the risk? What is the potential impact? What are we doing about it? It really, that is the conversation you wanna have with the board. And within that question of what is the risk for those watching that may know me, I talk extensively about the risk of inaction, right? And is related to what we spoke about earlier, is acting has a risk, but not acting has also a risk. And in many cases, that risk could be greater for certain organizations. That helps turn uncertainty into management, and it also helps people understand that risk is not always a reason to stop. In 2025, I saw a lot of organizations stopping. [00:10:00] Sometimes they were just thinking that things are gonna get back to normal, or let's see what happens in 2026. I see the same organizations realizing this chaos that Gary, you were talking about earlier, is just the world we live in, and we need to learn to live with that and figure out how to proceed more carefully. The goal is not to eliminate uncertainty, but the goal is to make it manageable. Those of us that have been dealing in international business for years and have been working in countries that are less sophisticated in terms of rules and regulations and those types of things, we're used to that kind of chaos. So we need to bring that thinking to everything that is happening now and understand this is really not new. It's new in this context, but it is nothing that we haven't faced before. I like the fact that I'm seeing that mentality shift in executives in the association world, and I see them taking action, which I think is very important. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: As you were speaking, I was reminded of a [00:11:00] quote by Peter Drucker, one of the greatest writers on management theory and management practice, Peter Drucker. He said The danger in times of turbulence is not turbulence. It's. Thinking and acting with yesterday's logic in mind, right? So we have to retrain, relearn our approaches because we can't solve the problems of tomorrow the same way we helped create those problems yesterday. So that turbulence is not the problem. The problem is the way we think about turbulence or don't think about turbulence. Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: Yeah, no, I love what you both said. I was gonna add that I think there is, there's one thing that is non-negotiable, which is the mission. That's what we do. That should not change no matter what the crisis is or whatever the context is, how we do it, that changes and that's the flexibility that I think becomes much more important under the current circumstances. And I think that's what sort of where I see that the majority of the impact is really now we do things and for example, you were talking about [00:12:00] the having an annual event where. It becomes much more difficult to get, and these, for example, from different parts of the world. So maybe the next step is to regionalize some of these events. And I've seen some organizations associations actually do that. So maybe duplicate that one big event in the us, one in Europe and suddenly you're not dependent on one big event anymore, but you have now the option for members to attend either one. And so again, that how we do it is where you can actually, the biggest impact. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Hey, I was wondering, as you're talking and I'm listening and processing what you're saying, I'm curious, have you ever done a desktop exercise with your stakeholders, your board members, your management team, desktop exercises for, or our listeners? Uh, our scenarios that you make up in advance, you craft a scenario in advance. I just used chat GPT yesterday to create one on geopolitical shock plus supply chain and market disruption. It spit back out to me. [00:13:00] Scenario overview with some key stress points and then some exercise objectives, and that it takes you through a 60 to 90 minute process, including things that you drop into the exercise as shockers or stressors to the systems, things like that. Different timed injections where key decisions have to be made. Have you ever worked with any of those type processes? Francisco Gómez: Yes, we do it all the time. As consultant, helping organizations expand internationally. You can imagine the scenario planning is a huge part of it and it keeps evolving though, and in an environment like this, the thinking also needs to be evolve. It used to be that we would sit down with boards and try to come up with a five year strategy, and it would be a beautiful, shiny piece of paper that boards and executives would use to communicate this is what we're gonna do in the next five years. That is no longer as useful as it used to be. Yes, you have to have a north, you have to have a vision, understand where you want to be in the next [00:14:00] several years, but the pathways to get there are very different, and you need to understand in advance what happens if, right? So what happens if we go into our preferred pathway and A or C happens then? Where are we going next? Are we going to the V pathway? Are we gonna run some pilots in parallel? How do we start testing some of these avenues to make sure that our strategy is resilient to those changes? So it's not about, and we said this earlier, it's not about avoiding the chaos, we're avoiding the changes that are happening around us, but is how do we build an organization that is adaptable and nimble so that when things start to show up, we're monitoring. We can see where things are starting to, to look like they're gonna come our way, and we have a plan to navigate those things because we have discussed those possibilities. It's impossible to predict everything that may happen, but I think you can predict certain things. [00:15:00] And what happens if there's a war? What happens if there's another pandemic? What happens if all of a sudden our number one source of revenue goes away? We have several associations in 2025. That loss substantial revenue when the U-S-A-I-D agency will disappear, they, the appendant is on the contracts in that organization and they found themselves in a situation that they were not anticipating. So what happens? They could have anticipated that, right? We have X percentage of revenue attached to a single source. What happens if that source goes away? So we could anticipate U-S-A-I-D was going to be disappearing, but we could have anticipated that something could have happened that would jeopardize that source of revenue and we should have been preparing to navigate and try to diversify and get away from that dependency etra. Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: Yeah, likewise, I work for an organization that objectively is extremely healthy. We have [00:16:00] 95% renewal rate, 96% we have, we grow very healthy and everything is great. But the good thing is also I work for some business leaders. So they are used to being paranoid a little bit and what could happen potentially will disrupt our model. So this is basically my daily life. But it's very interesting how we are gonna see also from, from like how the external environment potentially can impact competition. So what competition potentially can come out of nowhere that we are not expecting. So this is an exercise for example, that we're doing right now where we are looking at how, again, the external environment. Potentially creates new competitors. So that's, so that's something that is very interesting and I, in fact, I advise anybody who's listening to, to think about that, even if things are going great, just think about potentially what are your, your core competitive advantages and which ones are also the ones that can be disrupted more easily by existing or a new incoming competitors. And [00:17:00] just see how you can evolve to protect them. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: So I work for. Bunch of risk managers. Professional risk managers, so risk awareness is front and center in, in all things at all times. Although I, I always, when people say, oh, it must be terrible working for people who are just always worried about risk, it's, it's much more nuanced and strategic than just worrying about. Bad things that can happen. It's, it really is thinking through the different scenarios and looking for the opportunities and meshing that into our overall strategy. We have a formalized enterprise risk management process where we're constantly and certainly annually, a, a deep dive, but. Continuously evaluating our potential risks and how we might mitigate those or transfer those risks or reduce their potential impact to us. So it's been fascinating working with them, and I've always been amazed at how willing they are to take thought through [00:18:00] strategic risks, because anybody in the risk management will tell you, but part of the reason that companies and hospital systems and university systems engage in risk management is to grow. So getting back to this opportunity for where can we find the growth opportunity in these times of chaos, I think is important. Before I forget, I did wanna throw in a couple of things for our listeners. There's a lot written out there about risk, trend, trends and risk and that sort of thing, and we just wanna point out a couple every January, the World Economic Forum. Publishes an annual global risk report or risk survey, and this year it was issued on January 14th, 2026, about six weeks before the current war in Iran began. And interestingly, the number one expected issue was. Geopolitical confrontation, which was seen more as an economic issue, tie it back more to the [00:19:00] tariffs and that sort of thing. This, but the number five of the 10 expected risks for 2026 was in fact. State-based armed conflict or war as we think of it today. Very interesting that in January, and this is a survey of hundreds and hundreds of, uh, risks in business professionals, that geopolitical risk, geopolitical conflict was very high on the list. They also asked what are the longer term risks 10 years out, and almost all of them. Were, or the bulk of them were environmental related, major weather risks, that sort of thing. And only one or two, one or two were, uh, social issues, inequality and that sort of thing. And a few more were technological, but none. Geopolitical or armed conflict, which I found to be very interesting. Short term, a lot more potential conflict, longer term, more climate change kinds of issues. So there's a number of these indexes. Aon, [00:20:00] the insurance broker publishes one BlackRock. Publishes a geopolitical index and that sort of thing. Mark on your calendar at the end of the fourth quarter every year, just start doing Anu some searches and get an AI agent out there looking for some of these and maybe provide you with a summary report of what the consensus views are of, are there out there, where do you guys go for your, uh, information? What sources do you go to manage your way of thinking to guide your analysis? Francisco Gómez: Have, one of the things that we advise our clients is to stay on top of technology, and I have to try to leave the same principles that I preach. I build some agents with AI to help me stay on top of, rather than new them, strict guidelines as to which kinds of sources. You mentioned a Capital World Economic Forum, United Nations, certain news outlets that I trust and it, it feeds me the information on what's. [00:21:00] Happening and then I can go and follow up and try to see what else is out there. So today it's very easy to stay on top of this. It used to be the this thing of trying to look for things, but now you have a way to serve, very easily build agents for information that is gonna be coming to you at the right proper time. So I highly recommend doing that. I also wanted to mention very quickly, since you were talking about some of these resources, I am part of the A SAE. Executive Management advisory Council, and they recently put out, and I'm talking about in the last two weeks, my colleagues developed a discussion guide on navigating politicized issues. I highly recommend it. I think it's a 11 or 12 page document. That is helping associations think through this. You can find it on my own LinkedIn. I shared it on ASAE Collaborate or simply reach out to ASAE. I'm sure they'll guide you to the right place to get the guide, but I think it's association leaders helping other association leaders think [00:22:00] about some of the issues that we're discussing right now. Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: Yeah, very cool. Francisco. I can add something like that as well because we, as the International Association's Advisory Council, we actually provide a lot of content to members as well. So we have almost a, pretty much a monthly webinar on hot topics. So if anybody's interested in anything international and associations, please keep an eye on our webinars because there is a lot of content. In fact, we just did one on. When to speak up, for example, when it was extremely hot topic. But going back to your original question, Gary, one thing I love what Francisco said about basically having AI gather, gathered some uh, news sources for you. One thing I also to do is to look at different perspectives on news. So one of my daily routine is actually when I wake up, I look at European newspapers when I'm still in bed, I read different, luckily I speak different languages so I can see how they tackle some of the issues and then. In the evening, I usually read Wall Street [00:23:00] Journal or some American media just to see the different perception of, and the relatively importance of different issues that maybe for us are not as as important. So I also recommend if you can look at the international perspective a little bit, see how other countries are reacting to different pieces of. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Get out of your own bubble, then get out of your own echo chamber and look for those diverse sources and resources that you know might not stumble over in the normal course of events. Francisco Gómez: A hundred percent. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Interesting. Francisco, do you have something to add? Francisco Gómez: No, I just say that that's critical because it's harder and harder to just get the news these days. They come with opinions. So Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: yeah, Francisco Gómez: we have to make sure that we look at different sources to try to get our own idea of what's actually happening. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Thinking about that for a second, thinking about the longer term, as we start to bring this podcast to an a conclusion, think about another, a different time horizon of say 24 months or thereabouts. Where's your head at [00:24:00] and where would you suggest other association professionals ought to start thinking about the next series of trends or the continuation or cascade effect of these trends? What do you see in the future that we should be thinking about today? Francisco Gómez: There are a few, right? Obviously, one is the direction of US policy and trade, whether we like it or not, that is impacting the world. This serve continued geopolitical instability is something that we have to think about. You were mentioning Gary travel and vision friction. I think those issues are going to continue to be increasing with everything that is happening. But I, I do wanna say that. A lot of economists out there for years. Were talking about de-globalization and everybody just going inward and staying away from the world, and we have disagreed from the very beginning. I don't think that's happening. I don't think that will happen. What we're seeing is a reconfiguration of how we do global business. We see new alliances and partnerships and [00:25:00] trade. Routes that are emerging, and so this global trade will always be there, but we have to take a look at those frictions that we're looking at. Aside from that, I think obviously cyber and data risks are huge and how AI is changing member expectations and operating models, and this is something that should be at the forefront of any association thinking is not whether we like it or not, is when will your. Operating model, be truly impacted by all of this, and how do you anticipate it and take advantage of those things. And more broadly, I think leader should prepare for a more fragmented world. Fortunately, like I said, we're gonna see some of these alliances happening. That's gonna create a lot of opportunity, but it's not going to be as easy to navigate as it one was. It's not about being pessimistic, it means being ready. The organizations that do well. We'll be the ones I think that can adapt quickly without losing sight of who they are. [00:26:00] Pietro was talking about mission. I think that's critical. I think the future will reward associations that are globally aware, strategically selective, and operationally resilient, which I think is very important, is how do we go from strategy to execution and how do we do that properly? Pietro Macchiarella, MBA, CAE: Francisco, I think you've said it so well. I don't know if I can add anything more so eloquently, but I will say that I also see, I think the sort of polarization of the world, the creation of different regional interest areas, and I think that's part of the thing that will impact how you, you do business around the world. I also think that there is probably some economic pressures that will happen depending on the different. World economies go and people know. I tend to be still optimistic about the US economy, not so much about maybe Europe. I think that the interesting thing about Asia is that is probably being affected at least short term by oil right now. And so I don't know what will be the long term impact of that. [00:27:00] Of course, I think you mentioned Francisco technology. I think AI is also sort of, it's an opportunity. It's a great opportunity, but it's also a concern. I was on a call yesterday where as an alman was one of the speakers, and I could see actually in the executives, so AI executives, even some concerns from themselves, meaning this can be a. Thing from Manco, but it can also be potentially a threat if we don't manage it well. And so that obviously has an impact also on associations and how we manage it for our members and in the interaction with members. Yeah, I think these are my main points. Gary LaBranche, FASAE, CAE, AAiP: Thank you. You've both touched on something that's been on my mind and on my radar, and that goes back to the, the, the Trump administration's national Security Strategy white paper, which really explicitly said, we're no longer gonna be us in charge of everything, right? We're gonna be in charge of our stuff, and you all be in charge of your stuff. So bringing to an end the era of a US [00:28:00] dominated world order, and going back to, I think both of you touched on the idea of multipolarity. In other words, there'll be different regions of influence around the world. Engineer the way supply chains work, the way sourcing works, the way workflow proceeds, where migration patterns happen, all of those things and that, and also where knowledge flows. So that will be, I think, very interesting for those of us in the association space. So that multipolarity concept, to see where that takes us long term. We've all, we've spoke, spoken about AI and I couldn't agree with you more I think. It, it's not, in my view, it's not a question of will AI impact us, but to what degree will AI reshape the world of work and reshape the kind of the relationships that we have as individuals and the synergy or collaboration or lack [00:29:00] thereof or lost thereof between organizations. I think AI and now it's about the impacts of AI on all on, on all of that. And then think lastly, the, the idea of we as individual leaders. How are we adapting and changing to the challenges that are in front of us? Because going back to Drucker, the problem with turbulence is not turbulence. It's the way we think about turbulence and the idea that we have to change our mindset in order to keep up with this new deck of cards that we're being presented through. Whether it's geopolitical, chaos, or the new world that we're looking at, I think it's gonna be especially true if GDP grows at 2% versus 3%. If US GDP grows at 3%, we have an entirely different, very optimistic forecast in front of us. If we grow at 2% or under it, things get a lot tougher, a lot quicker for a lot of people. That's it [00:30:00] for us. We gotta wrap this up. So let me just say thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Association NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today. And highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thank you all very much for listening, and thank you to my panelists, Pietro and Francesco. Many thanks for your help in trying to decipher and discover where we're going in the future. Appreciate it. Thank you all. Have a good [00:31:00] day.
#21
March 26 · 26 min
Why Associations Must Rethink Learning and Community Together
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions sits down with Kurt Heikkinen, CEO of Forj, to explore how to connect learning, community, and member value into one cohesive experience. Drawing on member experience research, Kurt highlights a core insight—members join and stay for two primary reasons: to learn and to connect with peers. When those experiences are separated, engagement suffers. The conversation unpacks how expectations are shifting, particularly among early-career professionals who expect personalized, always-on access to content and community, not just isolated touchpoints like annual events or standalone courses. Kurt makes the case for rethinking how associations deliver value—moving away from fragmented systems toward unified, AI-enabled platforms that bring learning and community together. He shares real-world results from EcoAmerica and offers a clear takeaway for association leaders: start with the member experience, break down internal silos, and design for connection, not just content. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/J0QxOGuP6Ks Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to Association NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, director of Partnerships at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot Solutions and implementation partner, and your host of this series throughout the year. Today, we're exploring how associations think about learning and how that connects to renewal. I'm joined by Kurt Heikkinen. Kurt has built and exited multiple SaaS companies, led mergers and acquisitions, and raised more than $150 million in venture and private equity capital. He's helped companies grow from startup to over $50 million in recurring revenue, and today he's focused on helping associations and organizations rethink how they serve and engage their members. Kurt, welcome Kurt Heikkinen: Sharon. Thanks so much. Excited to spend this half hour with you and the audience. Sharon Pare: Absolutely, [00:01:00] and thank you so much, Kurt. You've spent much of your career building companies in fast moving markets. I'm curious what drew you to the association space? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, great question, Sharon. As I entered the space and started to learn more about the mission driven nature of these organizations, I was just compelled to help. After meeting with dozens and dozens of executives, I heard both. Their passion and mission, but also the challenges they face. And so after a couple decades serving the corporate space, I felt compelled to jump in and really help leaders of mission-driven organizations realize their full potential. Sharon Pare: Why don't we jump into it? So when I hear association leaders talk about value, connection, and education, it always comes up. I think renewal conversations are still happening everywhere, and sometimes I think about it like Netflix versus Instagram, right? Netflix gives you a huge library of content and [00:02:00] then Instagram keeps you coming back for more because it feels dynamic. It feels social, even though I think the influencer community might be dying a little bit. So I'm wondering if associations sometimes operate more like a content library than a living network. So my question for you, Kurtin, from where you sit, what truly keeps members coming back year after year and what do associations tend to overestimate? Kurt Heikkinen: It's a really great question, and I think you can see some of the parallels from an experience standpoint between Netflix and Instagram. But when you think about the core of associations, many of them view themselves as the trusted place, the trusted resource for their members, as some describe themselves as that community of practice. Their members truly care. They want a sense of belonging and they want a place where they can not only progress in their career, but share and give back. And so we do research every year. We call it the state of member [00:03:00] experience, a research report, and we launch it every year at the annual ASAE annual event in August. And for the last five years, the prevailing answer to the question, why do you join and why do you stay, has been. One for the peer-to-peer connections and two for the ongoing learning. And so that is at the core of the member value proposition. Do I belong and can I connect with peers like me? And is this an environment and a place where I can continue to learn and grow? And so those are the key factors that drive engagement and ultimately retention. Sharon Pare: If learning and community are structured separately, what does that do to the member experience? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, it creates a fractured and siloed experience. When you think about our own experience as consumers, when we're interacting with a company or a product, and the experience is different from the time we bought it to the [00:04:00] time perhaps we're asking for service. It becomes frustrating if they don't know us and they don't demonstrate that they understand who we are and what our needs are from one step to the next. And so having those experiences separate can only lead to frustration, and that's what we hear over and over again. So what's the difference? What's the answer? An experience that is seamless, that's personalized, that's unified, where the member, the learner, feels like you know them throughout every step of the journey. Sharon Pare: So are you saying that one of the shifts that you're seeing is mostly generational in how they're learning now? Kurt Heikkinen: I think by far one of the shifts is the expectations of early career members. You think about the expectations of early career members, the concept of membership is even foreign to them. They've grown up in an on demand consumption, subscription based world. That's their world. Whether that's in academia or whether that's from an entertainment standpoint. [00:05:00] You cited Netflix earlier, so that is one of the major shifts. But for all of us, regardless of what generation you're in, where you are in your career. The last 10 years has informed our own expectations regarding experience and what does a modern experience look like, and personalization is at the core of that. If we as consumers, let's just separate learning and look more broadly in our everyday life as consumers, if we don't experience something that's fast and easy and relevant where the entity we're interacting with. The service provider or the product company doesn't know us and doesn't demonstrate they know us and understand our needs immediately and guide our experience, we opt out. And that's regardless of age. Anyone who has been using a mobile device for the last several years has experienced that and now knows what good looks like. But furthermore, back to career [00:06:00] stages, we've also studied a lot. What are the attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs of professionals by stage. There are expectations that early career members have. They wanna know immediately, do I belong here? Can I connect with peers like me who have solved and encountered some of the things that I'm. Experiencing early in my career for those individuals mid-career, they wanna know how can they take the next step in their career? How can they climb the ladder? How can they advance in their domain? Um, they might be considering a pivot. And how will this community help them learn and grow vanguard? And many times for those latent career they wanna give back. They wanna share their wisdom and their expertise from the last two or three or four decades, and they want a forum, a learning community to do that. So when learning and community aren't together, when it's fractured and siloed, you miss out on so many opportunities to engage your learners, your professionals, your members that meet them where [00:07:00] they are, and truly tap in the power of community. Sharon Pare: So it sounds like continuity may matter more than isolated moments, and having these two together really matters more. So I think it raises a bigger question about how learning actually works. And you've already mentioned that adults and different generations don't learn in isolated events. It tends to happen over time, conversation in context. Again, as you mentioned, a lot of this education is still structured around single programs. What do you think leaders most often misunderstand about learning value is actually created today? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, it's interesting, Sharon, because we meet with hundreds of clients every year and prospective clients, and I think intuitively they understand. That the learning paradigm has shifted. I think they do understand that it is more social in nature. It needs to be more on demand. Micro learning needs to become a part of this, that individuals don't have the time or energy [00:08:00] and to sit down and take hours of courses by themselves. They are looking for that connectedness, but some of them are struggling to understand how to make that happen or they're. Largely dependent on a couple primary sources of revenue for their organization. A single annual conference, a couple main courses that drive 60 or 70% of their revenue that consumes their time and energy every year. That prevents them from moving beyond and innovating beyond that, and most often and why organizations come to Forj is because the technology they're using is holding them back or experience how today's technology better enables that breakthrough. Better supports that type of more dynamic social cohort based learning through the concept of a learning community as opposed to isolation. And there's still a place. There's still a place of course, for so many of these courses that lead [00:09:00] to credentials and certifications that help ensure that individuals are qualified in their field. But there are many opportunities to engage in learners and advance their career. Capture their expertise outside of those in single one-time events. Sharon Pare: What would you say are some of the risks that will show up when learning is treated with those one-time transactions, that annual event, that one big main course, what risk will usually show up for an association? Kurt Heikkinen: I know our clients are already seeing that. In the form of churn in membership, many organizations in the association spaces have retention numbers that aren't what they want them to be. Their retention might be 70% or 75 or 80%. So that's the first place to look is if you're not delivering a continuous always on engagement, that's the first thing that's gonna be impacted. Where in your one primary course that they are mandated to take [00:10:00] is the breadwinner. You've invested so significantly in other pieces of content. We hear this problem statement over, and it sounds like this. We have great content, but it's underutilized and under consumed. We hear that over and over again, and so the way to help our clients reimagine. A move away from a one-time experience. We ask them to talk about what makes their annual event so great. Or we ask the more broad question, what is the highlight of community vibrancy or vibrancy in your membership throughout the year? And inevitably they highlight their annual event or confide. They describe with superlatives how great it is, how individuals are connected, how they're sharing best practices, how they're learning, they're growing, how excited they are, and they can't wait for it to happen next year. And then the risk is if you're over indexed on that single event, that single source of revenue, you miss out the other 360 days a year. [00:11:00] And why not? Why can't you? And you can, our clients are. Creating that always on engagement, where that same sense of vibrancy, the same sense of engagement, that content that you've invested in that gets overlooked, is being unlocked. It is being captured. It is being founded. It is being utilized 365 days a year. That's the power of a learning community. Sharon Pare: So really it's less about delivering content, more about creating that context. Kurt Heikkinen: That's just it. It's all about relevancy. Most of our clients don't need more content. They need a form and they need technology to enable it, to ensure that content is served up through a personalized experience in a relevant way. So members don't have to go search for it and find it. And think about how frustrating it is when you have to go two different places to search, let alone one, but you shouldn't have to search. When you think back about our consumer experiences, whether that's on Netflix or Spotify or Amazon, how much searching do we do versus [00:12:00] how much serving up is done? How much content is presented to us based on the fact that we're known? That same thing should exist in a learning community. Members deserve to be known to understand past behaviors reflected, and whether that's content or connections or conversations, that's the power of an AI driven learning community. So it's no longer about searching across two different sources where you have to log in twice, but it's more about the relevancy of content, connections and conversations being served up to me. Sharon Pare: So you're talking a little bit more about conversations and communications and connections, and this just brings us directly to community. Let's use Peloton for an example, right? I don't do it a lot, but when I do, there's something fun that I love about it. You do the workout, but there's this leaderboard in community, right, where you just stick to it. So it's not just you doing the workout, but now you're like, you know what? I've gotta beat Callie Girl [00:13:00] 3 1 2, because she's on the lead award and she's number two and one. Right? There's just a sense of engagement that you get from that type of experience, and there's a shared experience there. So I think what I'm saying is associations have already potentially built that within their members, but it's not always activated intentionally. Right. Kurt, my question for you is, why does pure connection create a kind of learning value? That content alone simply can't deliver. Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, I think you said it. You used the freight shared experience. If it were just about you getting on the treadmill and consuming a course or content, it would be different than knowing that you're going through that experience together and in associations more than just general social communities. There is a passion around the subject matter itself. There's a deep passion around advancing the body of knowledge, and so communities unlock shared experience and shared [00:14:00] expertise and done right. It's not just about dipping in and dipping out and taking a course or reading a document. It really is about how can I learn side by side from my peers. Informally as well as formally, and how can I also contribute to that body of knowledge or that community of practice? Sharon Pare: Is there something that separates organizations that truly leverage community from those that just simply provide the space for it? Kurt Heikkinen: I think that's a really great question. Really, when we first start working with a client, these are organizations who have come to us who are not yet clients of Forge. We see really three different profiles. We see individual organizations who have never used community before. They're just exploring for the first time. Maybe they had a listserv, but not truly a community. We have organizations who have tried to adopt community, and in their minds it's a check the box member benefit. They have it because their members ask for it. [00:15:00] So they check the box and they say they have it, but they wouldn't describe it as vibrant. And they often say We struggle with engagement. And then we have organizations who come to us where they would describe their. Community as having engagement, but they struggle to really associate, tie it to the member value proposition. And they're wanting to think more broadly about the value of community and tying it to business outcomes. And we're seeing a shift. Those who really get it, think about community through the lens of what business outcomes does. A vibrant community. Generate. And if you can quantify and measure engagement, truly measure it not by logins, by vibrancy in your community, and tie it to outcomes such as retention. Attraction of new members, the generation of additional non-dues revenue, or the increased consumption of content that you've had for [00:16:00] some time that has been stale or under consumed. That's really where the power of community and learning community comes in, and that's how we see more and more leaders thinking about community. Not a check the box member benefit, but a real driver for value and member value proposition. Ad Break: Let's take a quick break with a word from our sponsor. Do you have members who finish a course and then just kind of disappear with Journey by Forge? Learning doesn't stop at course completion. The real ROI of learning happens after the course. Members move seamlessly from formal coursework into a connected community where they can apply what they've learned. Ask real world questions and continue the conversation with peers who understand their challenges. It's not just an LMS, and it's not just a community platform. Journey by Forge brings learning conversation and insight together in one seamless experience. So [00:17:00] instead of isolated courses, you create an active social learning environment where growth actually happens to see how it works. Visit forge.ai. That's F-O-R-J-dot-AI. Sharon Pare: You worked with EcoAmerica where courses and community originally lived separately. Could you walk us through what was happening there? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah. They train thousands of climate ambassadors every year. When you think about that these individuals are there 'cause they have a passion for the cause. They're not required to fill this role. This is not a course that they have to take to maintain a certification in their field and to maintain their employment. So experience matters in those instances, A as in most. And so they had two separate experiences and what they know they were really trying to drive not only [00:18:00] education, for someone to be deemed and qualified as an ambassador. Create a sense of how best to fulfill that role through the learning from your peers. And so previously what would happen is they had a community and they had this course, and individuals inevitably would go take the training 'cause they wanted to support the cause and get the certification to be an ambassador. But that's when the experience would stop. They would never log into community 'cause they saw no purpose or meaning for that. And many times they didn't come back to update or refresh their training. And so through the power of Forge by unifying community and learning together, that's where we unlocked great potential. And so now you look at an experience where a pre, during and post, you're actually engaging in conversation with your peers. It makes learning social, it makes it interactive. It's not just a course that you check the box on. You have a [00:19:00] shared experience and a shared purpose. What has happened now as a result is their community has grown significantly. They're recruiting more and more climate ambassadors and in, and a higher percentage of those individuals are coming back over and over again to update their training. So really great testament and story around the power of community and learning, uh, being a unified experience. Sharon Pare: So it sounds like learning became something that the members were a part of, not just something that they finished, not just stripped off the box. Kurt, why is it important for associations to understand and evaluate the difference between integrating community learning and technology intentionally built for unified community and learning? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, that's a great question and one of the things that I think is really good news for our industry is we've seen a rise in RFPs, request for proposals, that ask for community and learning together from a technology standpoint. And thankfully we've also seen [00:20:00] competitors in our space talking about it as well. And there's really been an increase in understanding of the why behind the value, and I think it's really important that. Buyers are able to discern the difference between integrated solutions and those that are intentionally built to unify that experience. And so here's probably the simplest way and the word of caution that I would offer. If you have an integrated solution where it's two separate technologies still, yes, you'll get the benefit of single sign. You may get the benefit of a basic personalized experience because now you can tie a discussion thread to a course or a course to a discussion thread, but you're missing significant opportunities that only get unlocked when it's a single unified solution. It starts with a unified experience. It continues with AI driven personalization and a unified experience. [00:21:00] We know every click. We know every conversation. We know every piece of content that has been consumed. We know every area of interest, and it gets back to serving up that experience, guiding that learner or that member through their journey. You also get deeper insights that don't exist when you have two separate solutions that are simply integrated. And those insights unlock understandings of your members, their needs and their interests in ways that you didn't previously have access to, or other content ideas or program ideas. 'cause now you know. What your members are talking about and what they really crave and how they enjoy learning. Beyond that, you simplify your tech stack and you reduce your costs. And so the difference between integrated. Integrated gets you partially the way there. A fully unified solution is where the true power is unlocked. Sharon Pare: So what organization or mindset shift most often unlocks this kind of connected experience? I know you've touched a little bit about it, but can [00:22:00] we dig deeper into that? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, please. I actually grew up on the client side buying and selecting and implementing software from vendors and I talk about my experience. I say I stopped 29 years in counting. It's my 29th year over and over again. So I've been around a little bit, and there's data that shows regardless of buyer community or technology vendor, upwards of 40% of B2B buyers. That's what we're talking about here. B2B, buyers associations buying services or technology experience, purchase regret within the first 60 to 90 days. Why? Because now that they're going through implementation, they're realizing that the solution they purchased. Doesn't adapt to their current or future anticipated needs. And so to your question, what is that though? Does that mind shift or organizational shift? It starts with one, start with a member experience in mind. Don't dust off your old RFP from the last time you bought an [00:23:00] LMS or community solution. And use that as your requirements. Start with a mindset shift around member experience in the moments that matter too. Identify a business champion as the stakeholder. It is great. They do a great job of helping to validate how things will work. You really should have a business owner driving and sponsoring the evaluation and tying it to business outcomes. And third, break down the silo. Stop buying technology where it's just one department or the other. Don't buy an LMS without engaging the membership team. And don't think about an upgrade to your community solution without engaging your learning team and your marketing team in that experience as well. Sharon Pare: You bring up three really great points, and I think a lot of associations are still measuring learning by how much the content they offer, but as you said, that's just not the most meaningful metric anymore. So what's one assumption leaders should seriously [00:24:00] rethink right now? Kurt Heikkinen: Yeah, and I meet with dozens of CEOs a year and over. I hear a concern around future relevancy. It's not. This year or next year, it's five and 10 years out. So the risk isn't assuming that you'll always exist, and the risk isn't assuming that your members will always want to be members. And so the biggest fundamental way of rethinking about your future is the challenge of competition that has increased exponentially over the last five to 10 years in so many industries. Your members have mind share and wallet share that they're making choices around every day, and if you do not create the experience that is meeting their expectations, you will lose relevancy and you will lose your place as the trusted place for them to come and stay. Sharon Pare: Kurt, I really appreciate the conversation. It feels like the future of association learning [00:25:00] isn't just more content, it's more connection. I appreciate you sharing your perspective today. Kurt Heikkinen: Thank you so much. And if I could leave one quick thought, because I know change is sometimes hard. It could sound overwhelming. Many of our clients have a staff of 10 or 20 or 30, and so the thought of changing sounds like too much. Here's a mind shift in terms of changing vocabulary internally instead of saying our LMS. Or our community or our education, start to adapt the vernacular of our learning community, whether that exists for you or not today. Start using that vernacular, our learning community and see how it starts to change the conversations inside of your organization and how you receive the feedback from your learners and your members. Sharon, thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it. It's been a great, great time together. Sharon Pare: Thank you, Kurt, for the final words. Appreciate it. Learning community. You've heard it from Kurt. Thank you. Thank you. And that does it for [00:26:00] this episode of Association NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series. We'll have these special episodes throughout the year, and please make sure to join us each month overall as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Visit associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thank you everyone.
#20
March 16 · 31 min
Examining the Changing Legal Landscape for Associations
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE, CEO of the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, speaks with Jerry Jacobs, Esq., partner at Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP, about three major issues facing associations today: artificial intelligence, DEI, and misconduct at events. They explore why many organizations are adopting AI cautiously and the importance of guardrails, institutional licenses, and transparency when meetings are recorded or summarized. Jacobs also discusses legal considerations around DEI programs amid increasing scrutiny and evolving interpretations of civil rights law. The conversation concludes with a look at rising concerns around inappropriate behavior at events and why clear policies and enforceable codes of conduct are essential for associations. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/6YBt9suvV2U Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Tom Arend, CEO of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons. Prior to serving as CEO, I was also general counsel of a large association. And prior to that, I served as a practitioner in the association law space in Washington DC. Joining us today, we're excited to welcome Jerry Jacobs. Jerry is a partner at the firm of Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pitman, LLP. Jerry has for decades been recognized as the dean of the association law world, both in Washington and across the country. He is a frequent commentator, author, contributor, and speaker on association law topics, and recently came out with the seventh edition of the Bible of association law, the Association Law Handbook. Welcome Jerry. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Hi, Tom. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: So there's a lot going on in the [00:01:00] world right now, but we're gonna try and focus primarily on three topics. First topic has to do with the use of artificial intelligence in associations and by associations. Then we'll move on to the impact of diversity, equity, inclusion in associations, and particularly the recent changes in the federal law and the sort of broader federal posture with respect to the use of diversity, equity, inclusion in governance and decision making by associations. Finally we’ll turn to another topic that causes a lot of angst among association executives, which is bad behavior among staff, among members, and among others in the association space, and how associations can most effectively deal with those situations. So in the area of artificial intelligence, actually, particularly today, here we are. In the third week in February, 2026, and we're [00:02:00] reading today, yesterday, over the weekend, doom and gloom scenarios around the use of AI from a number of consulting firm newsletters and other experts in the field, and AI is clearly becoming a very complex, difficult issue for everyone to deal with. How in particular do you see artificial intelligence impacting associations, Jerry? Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: It's gonna affect us all sooner than later, from everything that I can understand. Last year we had a role in the transition of what's arguably the leading AI company in the United States and the world Open AI from its historic founding as a public charity to more emphasis on a taxable business corporation. And I had a chance to look on the inside of the workings of a large AI company. And what I learned is that it's being utilized with new creativity and new efficiency in different ways by different [00:03:00] users. The association community, almost by definition, is a person-to-person field. There's advocacy, which is often one-on-one. There's professional education that's often very personalized. There are communications networking that's always personal, and so I'm wondering whether AI is moving more slowly into the association community than elsewhere because of the personalization required to be successful in association management. But we're seeing association clients use it effectively for preparing content, for communications, for summarizing meeting discourse, for cleaning or mining long lists of members, prospects, vendors, et cetera. And we've seen some. Fairly creative, but so far very limited uses by comparison as lawyers in the [00:04:00] law firm community, we're going headlong in use of ai and I'm not seeing that as often among associations. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah, I would agree with that. What I've seen both personally within the association that I work for and some of my other colleagues experiences in the last, I would say three to four years, is a, a slightly slower adoption than in some other spaces in the commercial area. But I do see that accelerating significantly, and I see both use cases internal to operations and management of an association, almost similar to any other large organization and then external use cases. And maybe we can talk about those. I think in both cases, it's important at the beginning to set some guardrails, to set some policies and procedures, some very clear expectations about how it's going to be used by your internal staff. For example, in our case, initially, I recall we had different groups [00:05:00] using different platforms. We'd have one, the marketing group, for example, maybe using anthropic, and you'd have the finance folks using ChatGPT, and you'd have the comms people using something else. And we ultimately got to a space where we said, hey, we've got to figure out, first of all, a uniform tool that we're all gonna use, that we all can become conversant on. And then importantly, we'll all have a corporate license for and we can use appropriately. And that ideally will help us better integrate what we're doing across the organization in ai. And is that, what are some of your thoughts on setting up those appropriate? Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: That actually makes sense. You're providing computers and in many cases, ipads and phones to employees. So you have every right to restrict what apps and software are used on those machines. And many organizations are picking one or two buying institutional licenses, which will sometimes allow confidentiality of use of these tools, which is a, [00:06:00] a big advantage. And yes, everybody is struggling with “What are our policies going to be?” A continuing question is what about members who wanna use AI to summarize meetings they attend? Yeah. Whether governance meetings or educational content meetings. I would think that in our experience so far, we see more associations come down on the side of denying and forbidding politely and diplomatically use of meeting summary AI tools by attendees simply. Because it's better to have one official record of what happened, especially at governance meetings. But I really appreciate that the exigency of membership relations, you may not be able to hold out. The members may just demand it. And I have seen some pretty darn good summaries of meetings produced by these programs. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah, that's an interesting case. And that's exactly a case [00:07:00] that you can compare to. This is the new technology we have. In some ways, the outcome of that technology is not a lot different in kind than the outcome. Twenty years ago we said, oh, can we record this meeting? Can we do an audio recording of this meeting? And for the reasons you articulated well, we don't necessarily wanna have, we don't wanna killl the debate among board members or committees or what have you, by them thinking, oh, some somebody's gonna look at, listen to this in three weeks or three months, and maybe I misspoke and I didn't correct it. And to your point, we want the minutes to be the official record. And so that, my recollection is the universal recommendation would be no, you shouldn't record meetings as a general rule now. I agree with you and just I see the progression that we've taken and some of my other colleagues and other associations, almost every call I'm on it. We just automatically record it. And the governance people, the staff people use that summary to then [00:08:00] create their own summary and then a set of minutes and it's just become so easy, not error free, to your point, it's always critical to review, have a human. Review everything, but it's hard to stand in the way of that progress from a governance entity. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: That's absolutely correct. And one final point, if we're gonna move on to another subject, we can't remind users often enough that right now AI's programs all hallucinate, they all make up. And, and so to develop something based just on AI and send it out to the members and find that a key fact or even an insignificant fact is just incorrect, will embarrass the association. And so you've got to check the facts, although we are always surprised with the ability of AI programs to come up with things that we hadn't thought of or data points that we didn't know existed. But very often, not every once in a while, very often they make them [00:09:00] up and so you have to be sure and double check them all. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Jerry, what about to this point? Everyone's on a Zoom meeting now, even when you are in person infrequently now, andwe all know it's being recorded by AI and will be used later. This notion of transparency around when we're using AI and then disclaimers to that effect. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: I think certainly when it's happening at a meeting, the attendees have a right to know that someone is recording what they're saying or proposing or objecting to. So by all means, I think just membership relations again dictates transparency and openness, even to the point, does anybody object if we use this program in order to record and summarize this event in order to be more efficient in our work? Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: What about confidentiality concerns? I'm thinking of a board meeting. A pretty standard agenda item is often executive session. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: One of Jacob's theories of Association [00:10:00] Law and Policy is that there's no such thing as a confidential association meeting because your volunteers are unpaid or just because this isn't the same as their employer. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: For whatever reason, it's virtually impossible to maintain complete confidentiality when you're making a major transaction and you're having it reviewed, or you're considering legislative or litigation advocacy alternatives or major budget issues, or you're evaluating the board itself. Or senior employees of the organization, or obviously if you're listening to advice from your lawyers or investment advisors or others, confidentiality is important and it's a value to the success of the association, but it's very hard to maintain and, and it gets harder if people are recording meetings and you have no control over what they're doing with the recordings.[00:11:00] Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. I've seen a, for lack of a better word, a diminution in the value of confidentiality and their respect for it. Over the years, I don't know, because everything is now just out in the open and transparent and accessible to everybody. People don't think as much about confidentiality. But yeah, that's definitely a challenge. What about intellectual property concerns when you're using AI? Internally as well as for a lot of associations like ours, we have, we have journals, right? We have clinical practice guidelines, we have other documents, content out there, and in some cases we found they're already being used or have been incorporated into some kind of AI platform without our permission. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: It's the essence of what associations do to corral joint action for the improvement of this or that. Tocqueville remarked about it in the 1830s, how uniquely American it is. It's a [00:12:00] kind of barn raising mentality, offshoot, and from an intellectual property point of view, what. We have to worry about is, if six people or 16 people or 116 people together create something, they actually all own it unless they sign away their rights. And yes, you need to be careful about creating content in a group, and you need to manage ownership of that. And if that means asking the participants to assign away any rights that they might have in it, usually as part of some other. Document, maybe on confidentiality or decorum for our meeting or agreement on what we're trying to achieve here. And then you tuck in. And by the way, I agree that the association owns anything that's the output of this event and have 'em sign it. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. And then I know there a lot of significant cases right now before the courts around certain AI providers having gone into. Large news organizations and scraped [00:13:00] their archives. And like I said, we've seen that with some of our clinical materials, journal articles, that sort of thing that are owned by us or in a lot of association cases. They might be owned by the publisher, but they haven't given any permission to do to use that and that, and Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Of course all of that is in litigation in a dozen cases. And so far AI is winning. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Alright, last two questions on this area, then we'll move on. What about any insurance to try and protect yourself against liability, mitigate that risk. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Many associations now carry privacy disclosure data, privacy disclosure hacking damage insurance. I haven't seen the insurance community react or respond to risks from use of AI yet, and I'm guessing it's just too new. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: And then finally what I'm hearing is that there should always be this human oversight, this human intervention, whenever and wherever we're using it as an association. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Alright, let's move to another topic that's very timely and also it can be very challenging for a lot of associations, and that's the changing legal landscape, federal policy. Changes or almost a change to some degree in the zeitgeist of the country on issues of diversity, equity, inclusion, and the impact on associations and those programs. I recall that there was a case brought by, I think it was Students for Fairness or something to that effect, versus Harvard and University of North Carolina. And the Supreme Court found that it was illegal, I think, contrary to the equal protection clause, to use any kind of race consciousness in admissions decisions. And then that decision has then been used to justify, essentially what we hear from the federal government is almost a blanket ban on using any diversity, equity inclusion criteria in [00:15:00] decision making, in awards, in contracting, in education. At the association level, what have you, can you speak to that a little bit? Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: There's a tension. There's a tension between the scientific evidence that suggests that a greater range of voices, ideas, input, can contribute to a more successful output in almost any endeavor. On the other side, there are civil rights laws that have been in place since just after the Civil War that prohibit treating people uniquely because of their race, uh, and by extension from the civil rights laws in the 1960s based on other protected gender, ethnicity, that sort of thing. And so how does one resolve that tension? Up to now, it's been step by step, the 2023 Supreme Court case that you mentioned. The court was careful to limit the purview of its decision to college admission decisions, period. I. [00:16:00] And yet the principle has been taken up, especially by this administration, and extended toward the policy view that essentially all diversity, equity, inclusion, even more broadly, environmental social governance, where and if it. Results in treating any class unfairly, including those not specifically. Not in a protective class is wrong. Right? In fact, more than once, the administration in various contexts has said it's illegal, but without explaining what it is that's illegal or on what basis it's illegal. In addition to the Supreme Court case, though, we ought to be aware of one federal circuit. Court case, 10th Circuit, in which a private foundation had a program that provided scholarships to black owned businesses, women, black owned businesses, and it required the recipients of those scholarships to sign a contract on [00:17:00] how they would use the money from the award. And that was challenged in court. In the 10th Circuit, Alabama, Georgia, Florida purview concluded that violated the post-Civil War, civil rights lawon contracting based on race. What we have so far is college admissions and contracts, but there is a view. By extension of the Supreme Court decision and perhaps the 10th Circuit decision that any kind of benefit or favoritism based on any protected class, if your association has a women's caucus or if it has anAsian Engineers networking group, or Asian American networking group, anything that appears to provide a special privilege or benefit based on participation or non-participation in a protected class in the view of some. Certainly this administration [00:18:00] is problematic. In indeed the rhetoric of the administration is it's illegal. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Yeah. I know you mentioned just as an aside, ESG, the corporate model of environmental, social, and governance. Using those rubrics and the impact an organization has in those three spaces that's really almost been lumped in now with these DEI prohibitions and I've seen a lot of organizations either abandoning their ESG efforts altogether, or significantly downgrading them or recharacterizing them, refashioning. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Yes, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the majority of associations that since the second Trump administration began, or taking a look at how they describe various programs and whether there are ways to achieve the same result without using what are potential. Trigger words that could be picked up by a bot somewhere, and if not getting you in trouble, at least [00:19:00] shining a spotlight on you that you'd rather have shown on you. So we have a lot of clients that are changing diversity to community, but without changing anything else. Query whether that's really worth the trouble because you might offend some folks in doing in your group. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Exactly. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: And even that, but it's going on a lot. One incident that's, that's too long and complicated to go into in detail, but the Department of Education confronted 45 or so colleges and universities for their sponsorship of a particular organization and required that they report back to the Department of Education on what they're doing to mitigate and moderate. Essentially, they wanted these schools to commit to not any longer supporting that organization and one of them. University of Kentucky actually published what had reported back to the federal government, and it went ahead and screened. We don't know how, they don't [00:20:00] explain how they screened 1600 nonprofit organizations. The University of Kentucky somehow contributed to most cases, probably paying faculty or staff dues for a membership in an organization, purchasing publications or whatever. The University of Kentucky then excluded for from consideration 400 of those because they felt they really needed that. Nonprofit credentialing organizations or whatever, but the other 1200, they basically put on a watch list and asked DOE what to do about it, because in those 1200, they found evidence of potential civil rights violations based on DEI. Mm-hmm. What they found. But the very number of 1200 means they must have used AI to just Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's what we've been hearing as well, that they're using. Keywords. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Yeah. So the point is, do you want your association's website [00:21:00] to be called out impropriety illegality and have to defend it, or does it make sense to change some terminology? Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: So it seems like we're in a very murky environment right now, and even though a lot of times you hear this is absolutely illegal. Whether something is legal or illegal is still somewhat being adjudicated right now. Formally that said, prudence wisdom probably dictates making some modifications. I've heard the expression used for organizations that feel very strongly about these issues. You don't wanna be deemphasizing, DEI, but at the same time, you wanna be de-risking your association and taking some prudent steps to at least get you out of the crosshairs of the federal government and some of these agencies that are looking for examples [00:22:00] right now. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: I think to conclude we ought to watch two things carefully. We ought to be careful as associations to not find ourselves in a position where we're actually entering into contracts such as scholarships that specifically involve preferential treatment to people based on race. We've got a late 1800s law that prohibits that, and we've got at least one for federal circuit court that said it's illegal. So that's an area. We need to be careful of if you have a scholarship program where the benefits are based on racial characteristics, for God's sakes, don't ask the scholarship recipients to sign an agreement because that could get you over the line in terms of not just impropriety, but illegality, and then perhaps I would say softer. Are you providing anything that could realistically be characterized as benefits or advantages to portions of your. Association constituency based on any protected [00:23:00] class characteristic. And it's just worth cataloging those and looking at them and asking yourself, does the culture history and success of your organization depend on perpetuating those or not, and make your decision. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Yeah. Good points. Alright, let's move to our last topic, which is under the very broad category of bad behavior, bad behavior by members, bad behavior by staff, vendors, consultants in the context of association activities like an annual meeting or a board meeting or an educational course, and I think both of us over our many years combined have seen a lot of these in various different forms. I will say what I find interesting, and I think something to keep in mind is how you deal with it. Also depends on what the dynamic is. Is it a member to member issue? Is it a staff to member issue? Is it a staff to staff issue? Is it a member to [00:24:00] vendor or external consultant issue? And we've had experiences with all of these various kinds. How do you first set up? Again, going back a little bit to the AI adoption issue is the environment, the guardrails, the policies and procedures first to hopefully create an environment where you can at least discourage that and set up ways to address it if and when they do happen. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: I hope our behavior here has been beyond reproach, um, yours at least. Jerry, has the problem accelerated in recent years? Is it COVID when everybody was cooped up? Is it just so much on the internet that everybody has access to right now? I don't know, but it is undeniable in our practice that we get far more frequent calls than we used to from our association clients about. Bad behavior problems, usually at events, but not always. And it's almost appalling. Old fashioned sexual harassment is up [00:25:00] not down. And you would think that at this day and age we've gotten beyond that. Supreme Court has said that the sexual based conduct that makes a person reasonably uncomfortable is illegal. And that an organization that does not have a written harassment policy is essentially defenseless against a claim, and that's basic. There's even a case in New York in which a member of an association asked to borrow an office while in the city from the association, and while there allegedly engaged in harassment, the association attempted to defend arguing that. They had no control over this individual. He was just visiting the office, and the court said, no, you have an obligation to protect your workforce from this sort of thing by extension. That means that your associations have an obligation to protect your staff from attendees at events, engaging in improper conduct, specifically sexual harassment, but [00:26:00] also member to member to vendor staff, to vendor to staff, et cetera, et cetera. I think we all know enough about sexual harassment to know what it is, how to help prevent it, what policies we need to have, et cetera. This is an issue that's been in the courts for the Supreme Court's Major decision was 20 years ago. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: But. What's new and unique we think is, is just extreme impoliteness. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Individual dominating a board meeting and kind of not listening to other views and demanding the microphone far disproportionately to what is reasonable. Or individuals walking up to a long line at a registration desk and starting yelling, this is unreasonable. I don't have time to waste standing in this line. Yeah, I paid my registration or I paid my dues, and those kind of situations are really difficult to deal with. One thing you pointed out that we find amazing is it really does depend who's offending whom [00:27:00] as to what the result is. We've seen associations where their leader, the elected chair, was accused of pretty significant wrongdoing, basically bearing their head in the sand and saying, he's one of us. We'll talk to him, but no, we shouldn't offend him. He's one of us. A boorish vendor at a trade show booth, it's a lot easier to just throw the bone out. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Right? Yeah. I think I've, I'm aware of examples where, because of a lack of appropriate process, and I would say process and policies that specifically address the different contexts in which harassment, bullying, just poor behavior can occur. I think how you deal with it. Internally and who deals with it is very important. In other words, if it's a member to member issue, my view is that you absolutely have to have peers, members primarily leading that charge. It's usually not well received [00:28:00] when staff are seen as the. Prosecutors, for lack of a better word, similarly, if the dynamic is between a member and a staff person who, whoever is potentially the individual at fault. That's a little bit more of a tricky dance because I think you need to have some kind of a collaborative approach to it. There has to be a senior staff person, a CEO, or somebody at that level along with a member addressing it, because I think either way, if you. Turf it entirely to the membership or turf it entirely to the staff leadership. You're gonna get one party saying, Hey, that's not fair to me. Those are I, my interests aren't gonna be represented, so I Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: You made a good point about having a baseline. Yeah. Too many of these situations arise in circumstances where the association has nothing to point to. It's really not a code of ethics issue. Yeah. Not a business code issue. It's a behavior issue. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: It's a behavior, yeah. It's just you're being [00:29:00] a jerk. You're being rude, you're being disrespectful, you're being bullying. Whatever. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: More and more we are seeing associations develop a good behavior policy, having it have it approved by the board, and then have it click through for every single registrant at every single event I have read and understand the policy on behavior at this event and to move on. Everybody's gonna click through it. Nobody's gonna read it, but if bad behavior occurs, you can point to that and say, look, you agreed to follow our code. There's ample evidence that you violated our code. We have to ask you to leave. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Yeah, no, absolutely. You've gotta have those codes of conduct on both sides, on the staff side as well as the member side and the vendor side, or consultant side as well. Jerry Jacobs, Esq.: Yeah. Remember the Oscars award show a couple years ago when there was the famous slap? There was actually no code that dealt with that. Tom Arend, Jr., Esq., CAE: Unfortunately. There was something even. Awful. That happened recently at another award show that, yeah, it's, yeah, human [00:30:00] behavior always seems to exceed the battles that are set for it at some point in time. Thanks, Jerry. We've covered a lot of ground from artificial intelligence to diversity, equity, inclusion to unfortunate and bad behavior within associations. Appreciate as always your thoughtful insights and counsel. Look forward to speaking again in the future. And in the meantime, I wanna say thank you to all of our listeners for this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field. And highlight the significant impact associations have on our economy, the United States and the world. Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Please visit Associations NOW online at associationsnow.com. Thanks [00:31:00] everybody.
#19
February 26 · 34 min
Why AI Certification Matters for Association Leaders
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Dave Will, co-founder and CEO of PropFuel and host of Association Strong, is joined by Jason Oxman, president and CEO of the Information Technology Industry Council, and Amith Nagarajan, AAiP, chairman of Blue Cypress and co-founder of Sidecar, to examine the growing importance of AI certification for association leaders. They explore how AI is rapidly moving from experimentation into everyday workflows and why the real risk is not job loss to AI, but falling behind peers who know how to use it effectively. Amith discusses the challenge associations face in keeping pace with AI’s accelerating evolution, while Jason shares ITI’s practical, bottom-up approach to adoption, starting with small use cases such as meeting summaries, email drafting, and research, supported by clear acceptable-use policies and disclosures. The conversation also highlights how AI can strengthen member engagement through personalization, support board and staff education, and enable associations to develop new products and services for their industries. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/Xf3G-LmxEAM Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Dave Will: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Dave Will, co-founder and CEO of Prop Fuel, as well as the host of the Association Strong podcast. If you're listening to this, you'll love the Association Strong podcast. You can find that at associationstrong.com. Today topic's all about AI certification and whether or not it's a valuable program for association executives. Spoiler, it is. So to dig into this a little further with me, I wanna welcome Jason Oxman, president and CEO of the Information Technology Industry Council (ITI), and Amith Nagarajan, chairman of Blue Cypress, and the co-founder of Sidecar. Jason, welcome. Jason Oxman: Thanks, Dave. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on. Dave Will: Of course. And Jason, I just learned you are the host of the Download on Tech podcast as well, right? Jason Oxman: That is absolutely [00:01:00] right. We focus on public policy related to AI, so a little different than our conversation today, but a great opportunity here. Conversations about advancements in tech. Dave Will: Who doesn't wanna hear more from government officials and Amith you. That was demeaning. I'm very sorry, Jason. I'm sure it's riveting. Talking to the government officials. Amith, welcome to this podcast. So Amith, you have the Sidecar Sync Podcast. Amith Nagarajan: I do. It's a weekly podcast at the intersection of all things associations and artificial intelligence. We love doing it and the association community seems to enjoy it. Dave Will: So while we're on Sidecar, Amit, gimme 15 seconds on what Sidecar is all about. Amith Nagarajan: Sidecar is on a mission to educate the association world on ai. It's very simple. We think that the catalyst to driving transformative change in associations is all about education. If we can educate 1 million or more people by the end of the decade, which is our mission at sidecar, [00:02:00] specifically in the association market, we think we're gonna make a big difference. So our goal is to move the needle considerably on AI adoption, but AI adoption in the pursuit of driving transformational change. Dave Will: Was Sidecar originated with that intent or was, did Sidecar more or less embrace AI as it came to the forefront? Amith Nagarajan: Sidecar has been around about 10 years. It has not always been exclusively focused on AI, although AI has actually always been on the agenda for sidecar as a major item. Up until about four years ago, we had a number of other things we covered, but we decided about 2020 1 22 that we were gonna go all in on AI and do nothing. Other than ai. So that's the shift we made. But the broader theme of sidecar is how do we help associations through change, through significant change, of course. And right now, AI is the biggest driver of that. That may not always be true. And sidecars commitment is to be here for this community. Regardless of what the changing forces are at the moment, it really is about ai. [00:03:00] Dave Will: And Jason, before we dig into the AI talk too much, gimme 15 seconds on ITI. Why does ITI exist? Jason Oxman: We are the oldest and largest trade association of the technology industry. We're founded in 1916 and we represent 80 of the world's largest technology companies, policy development, advocacy around the world, the regulatory and legislative environment obviously impacts the ability of the tech industry to offer innovative services to their customers. And so the team at ITI, 60 people strong, spends all day every day advocating for public policy that helps advance innovation. Our member companies are all companies you would've heard of ranging from semiconductor manufacturers, data center operators, components manufacturers, big tech companies to the companies advertising in the Super Bowl against each other, the whole tech stack, if you will. Dave Will: Yeah. Those are entertaining. Uh, the philanthropic and going after, was it Chat GPT, philanthropic going after Chat [00:04:00] GPT for the advertising? Yeah. We could have a whole podcast on advertising and AI. That'd be interesting to talk about. All right. Let's get into the topic, Jason. I've heard that 2026 is the year that AI becomes a productive tool for organizations. I think what that means is AI has moved from this experimental phase where we're playing with it to making it more deeply ingrained in our operations. And so why the shift? What do you think changed in people's perspective of AI in the last year? Jason Oxman: I think what's interesting is AI is a technology tool, and I wanna oversimplify it. It's software that does a lot of things very well, but it is still a technology tool. So every time we have technology innovation, we have questions about what it means for jobs and the dialogue around AI as a tool. Up until this year has been, I think, a positive and one perhaps driven by [00:05:00] curiosity, what is this gonna mean for my ability to do my job? And that quickly became, what is this gonna mean for my job? And so if you look back over time, it's interesting to think about. MIT did a study on this last year. 60% of the jobs that people have today did not exist in 1940. Certainly a podcaster is a job that didn't exist in 1940, but overall, 60% of the jobs. Out there in the country right now did not exist just a few decades ago, and that's because of changes in technology and we all have to adapt to that. I think our conversation today is important because it's a reminder that. My job might not be taken by ai, but it might be taken by somebody who knows how to use ai. So I think it's more important to figure out how to use the tools to make yourself more marketable as an employee to make your organization more efficient and more effective than it is to view AI as something that's gonna cause. Such disruption that it eliminates jobs entirely. That's why this certification [00:06:00] conversation we're having, this education conversation we're having, particularly for the association community, is so incredibly important. Dave Will: Did you say when you were introducing ITI, did you say it was 1960? Jason Oxman: 1916. So we're 110 years old. Our founding members were companies that made business equipment, so IBM, which used to be called the Computing Tabulating Recording Company, founded us in 1916. Back then, they made punch clocks and scales and adding machines. NCR. Still with us today, one of our founding members made cash registers. So we used to be called the Association of Business Appliance Manufacturers. And I like the fact that you like old technology too. Dave Will: So I just pointed, if you're listening to this, I just pointed at an NCR cash register that's behind me. I'm very proud of that. Actually, my grandmother was an entrepreneur. She owned a health food shop. When her husband died, she opened a health food shop and she had an NCR and I used to love playing with that. So she gifted it to me when she closed the shop and retired that [00:07:00] 1916. So I think back and at Thanksgiving and the holidays, I have conversations with my father-in-law who was a. A developer back in the sixties and a developer back in the sixties used punch cards and yeah, it's just fascinating to think about the progress and the change. And so I take it based on what you're saying, you're not too worried about job replacement. Is that a fair summary? Jason Oxman: That's a fair summary. I'm not worried about job replacement. I'm worried about people not recognizing that jobs are changing. Dave Will: Changing. Jason Oxman: Yep. And the tools that they need to be familiar with in order to adapt are very important to learn. Dave Will: Yeah. Amith you've been working in the association space for 25, 30 years. Amith Nagarajan: Yeah, it's been a while. Jason Oxman: Yeah. And the association space is about, people are called associations because we bring people together to associate with one another. There was this idea that [00:08:00] Zoom, which we're on right now, which is a great platform, and one of our member companies was gonna kill trade shows because people didn't need to travel anymore. But there is no replacement for the in-person contact with one another. The handshake, the eye contact, the conversation. That's why trade shows continue to thrive, and the association community continues to. To thrive. AI is going to make it easier for us to develop content, to make use of that content, to bring people together, to research, to market all of the things that associations need to do. But it's not gonna replace that in-person contact. And I think it's the same with jobs. We're gonna make jobs better. We're gonna free up time, be more efficient to do the things that only humans can do, but it's not gonna replace us. Dave Will: Yeah, it's not gonna replace my warm embrace when I see you at ASAE this summer. Jason Oxman: I look forward to that. Dave Dave Will: Amith, in your decades, which, by the way, you look amazing for having spent so many decades working with association. But if in your decades of working [00:09:00] with association you've seen a lot of change, when you first started working with association's, AMS weren't around. You started Aptify back in the day. LMSs weren't around. I came out with one of the first LMSs back in the early two thousands. The rate of change though, that we're seeing with ai. It's unlike anything I've ever seen before it, it's unbelievable. How do you think the association space is responding or will respond to such dramatically fast change? Amith Nagarajan: Honestly, I'm pretty worried about it. I think the association space is looking at this as another technology for the most part. I do think people are taking it seriously now as we enter 2026, which is great. I don't think they're taking it seriously enough. So I'm probably gonna come across a little bit negative, some of my comments, but I wanted to kind of reassure people that there's time to adapt, but the issue is that the speed at which this technology [00:10:00] is driving change is the problem. It's not that we're not used to technologies driving change in jobs, and I agree with Jason, that's an excellent stat. 1940 to now 60% of the current jobs didn't exist. That should give us a lot of comfort. On the one hand, the flip side of it is that's 86 years. And the speed at which things are happening now is more like 8.6 months, right? Is driving radical change. I agree with what Jason's saying that jobs are not likely to completely go away. But first of all, I don't know that any of us really know that to be true or untrue because we've never, none of us have ever been through this type of exponential change. What I will say is these systems that we have, whether they're systems of economy, politics, social systems, there's incentive reward systems in every aspect of life, in business and in personal life. And the issue is that if you can substitute one product for another or one service for another, and one service is perhaps equivalent in value, but is dramatically less [00:11:00] expensive, or perhaps is even better in value and dramatically less expensive, you will at least seriously consider it, if not flocked to it, right? It's unlikely that people will hire the jobs. To put it in, in labor economics terms that could be fulfilled by AI or could be 90% fulfilled by AI. So you think about jobs like customer service, a favorite one to pick on and say, is customer service currently being delivered in an extraordinary way universally across all companies everywhere in the globe? I don't think anyone would say yes to that. That's why I say it in such a ridiculous way. Would most companies say that they love the customer service experience? They provide their own customers or what most associations say, they think the customer service they provide their members is extraordinary. I don't think most people would agree with that statement. And if they could do that, and it's not about hiring tons more people. Maybe it's about taking the current people they have, but empowering them and that that's exciting. But most of the time when you're talking about like businesses, if you're saying, Hey, we have 5,000 people doing call center work. I don't know that you're gonna keep 5,000 people. Maybe [00:12:00] not all the jobs go away, but a large number of them could. Now, that doesn't mean that those people can't be retrained. It doesn't mean that all hope is lost for those folks. I'm actually quite optimistic about retraining. I just don't know what those other jobs are yet, and that's what makes me nervous about this sector. Coming back to it. I think associations have an extraordinarily important responsibility to themselves, internally and to their staff, but moreover to their sector, to their profession. Associations need to lead the way in terms of AI education for everyone, for themselves, and for their industries to help people figure this out, I definitely do not have all the answers. I just think that the challenge is perhaps the steepest one we've ever faced when it comes to job retraining and readiness. Dave Will: So now a big part of that is the mission behind sidecar, and you guys have hands down, in my experience, become the leaders in AI education and now you've partnered up with ASAE there. You and ASAE are working closely on this association, AI professional certification, otherwise known as [00:13:00] AAiP. If you're on LinkedIn and you're seeing any of your peers, it's unbelievable the number of people that now have AAiP next to their name. Can you walk me through a little bit of this training? What does it entail? What's involved in the certification education process? Amith Nagarajan: I'd love to. The history behind it is we've been providing AI education in one form or another to this market for years, and about a year and a half ago, we decided that we wanted to produce a certification program so that professionals in this market could demonstrate that they have a strong level of competence in both ai, but also association use cases. How do you actually make AI practical for your association, right? Not just understand the theory behind it, but understand how to put it to work for you. And that's what the certification program is all about. It was we need to teach you the basics so that you understand not just how to prompt ChatGPT. Sure, that's important, but we want you to [00:14:00] understand why certain things work. Why certain things do not work. We want you to be able to adapt and learn over time. So we also update the content extremely frequently. Like every single month we're updating the content. To answer your question, Dave, we have seven courses that form the foundational layer of the AAiP certification, and those courses cover everything from foundational knowledge of what is AI and how does it work. We try to dispel a number of myths. We also try to provide some fundamental knowledge that we think is important for everyone to have. Not deeply technical, but it does stretch your mind a little bit. I think in terms of understanding the technology, we want people to not look at it as a magical creature or a black box or something. We want them to have an idea of what's actually happening under the hood. We've touched, I think it's something on, on the order of about 110,000, 120,000 people that we've touched in some way. Not with the AAiP program yet, that's over a thousand people now. But I'm talking about overall with our webinars, with our podcast, with our newsletters, with all the stuff that we do. We've touched a lot of [00:15:00] people. What we found is that people are both really curious, which is super cool and that the least technical association staff all sometimes are actually the best users of this technology, which I love 'cause that's not true for any other technology I've personally been exposed to. It's normally the people that are most technically adept and the reason that's the case. Is because AI is so counterintuitive for technologists, right? We're trained to think in these very deterministic ways about how software and technology works, and AI is just this weird thing. It's non-deterministic, right? It doesn't always produce the same outputs, given the same inputs, and a lot of times people that are more creative, people that have different backgrounds just find their way to getting more use out of it. In any event, the main point of the program is really simple. We want people to, number one, gain those skills and then we want them to have a valuable badge to be able to apply to their names so that they are recognized for their skills, for their knowledge, and for the value they can provide in our organization. And we were surprised last year when we thought we might have a couple hundred people [00:16:00] get certified, but it blew up. And we love the partnership with ASAE. I've been good friends with. A number of people at ASAE and the organization as a whole since the nineties when they first started using my old company software. And so I've known them forever and highly respect ASAE. And so partnering with ASAE to broaden the reach of the program is super exciting. So that partnership was launched in the fall and we're out there promoting it together. ASAE members do get a 10% discount. On the program, which is cool, and I can tell you more about it and double click on any of that if you'd like, but it's, we're very excited about it. Dave Will: A number of my teammates at Prop Fuel have been certified with the AAiP and I'd love to see the rest of my team get certified as well. Ad Read: AI is transforming associations, and you can help lead the change at your organization. Through ASAE's partnership with sidecar, A SAE members get discounted access to Sidecar's AI Learning hub, both at the team and individual level. Whether you're [00:17:00] upskilling your entire team or advancing your own expertise, you'll receive 10% off your subscription and access to the AAiP. Association AI Professional Certification. Get started today at sidecar.ai/asae and bring AI education to your organization today. Dave Will: I've been thinking about the evolution of AI usage recently, and I break it down into three tiers, and there's probably gonna be more tiers over time. In fact, I suspect you guys could probably expand on this, but the way I see it is, first it was treated like a fancy Google, one-off questions or help with creating content, writing a blog post, an email, making my email better, more concise. The next tier is bigger projects that may require an MCP or multiple systems contributing data to do a [00:18:00] better analysis. And usually that's a collection in a multiple exchanges with one or multiples. And then the third tier, and this is the part that I'm most excited about implementing at my company, which is embedding ai. Into continuous processes. And to me that's the holy grail when you've got it now baked into the way you do things. And I'm sure I could probably continue on. You guys more likely could continue on and say, then it's gonna do this, and then we could do that. But Jason first, someone working inside with that foundation, with somebody working inside an association. Where does AI fluency. Create the most immediate impact. Is it operations? Is it member engagement, strategy, governance? Like where do you see AI playing the strongest role as the CEO of ITI? Jason Oxman: The biggest challenge any [00:19:00] association faces is engaging members, and imagine particularly for professional societies that may have tens or even a hundred thousand plus members. The biggest use case that I see for AI is. The hyper personalization, if you will, of engagement with members, making sure that you're tailoring and making members aware of the offerings that are tailored for their specific use case. So I do think how members experience associations is what AI can really improve, and that's why it works. Dave Will: You would think I fed you that answer. Coming from PropFuel, you would think I set that up for you, but it actually wasn't the case. But thank you for that. Jason Oxman: It was absolute not the case. Dave Will: Totally agree with you. Jason Oxman: I'm so glad to hear that. That's how I get invited back as a guest. But I do think that's an important use case. And I also think it's important for associations to see this as a tool that can. Again, back to your jobs question [00:20:00] earlier, improve the efficiency of the way in which members interact with associations. So if you are in the customer service business and an association and you're getting dozens of inbound inquiries from members a day, you're gonna be able to respond to them more quickly. You're gonna be able to find the information they're looking for more quickly. You're gonna be able to provide them, in fact. The tools they need to find the information themselves. So I do think there are improvements, as you noted to all of the operations of an association, but I do think that hyper-personalized experience, the one that AI can do better than anything else. Think about an association like ITI that's 110 years old and think about how much material we have and how much content we've developed over the more than a century, and then think how hard it's to access that. A lot of it historically has been in a box, in a warehouse, but AI can make that all accessible in, in ways that are really useful to uh, members. So I think that's the best use case for, uh, for associations for ai. And I'm really excited. Let me just say in response to what [00:21:00] ETH was talking about, I'm really excited about the work that he's doing with ASAE's job as an organization. Its whole reason for being. Is to help the association community do business, much as associations themselves, help their members do business. The technology industry for us, and if I think back over my association career, what has ASAE meant to me? I'm a certified association executive, CAE through ASAE. Why did I do that program two decades ago? Because it helped me get my first job as a CEO and as an at an association because I could tell them that I got the education from the association of associations about how to run an association. And going to ASAE's program with Sidecar to get educated about how to use AI in an association is just a great opportunity for all associations to take advantage of these tools. So I'm excited about that partnership as well. Dave Will: Boards are starting. Boards have noticed AI, so boards, for better or worse, [00:22:00] I think we have in the association space. What I've witnessed in my work with associations is that boards are incredibly helpful and valuable and also very difficult and frustrating at the same time. Because essentially for staff members, you're working in the operations of the business. Probably know what you wanna do next. Now you gotta convince the board to jump on the bandwagon with you, and sometimes that's difficult to do. As the boards are starting to ask more questions about ai, how do you think the certification helps professionals lead those conversations? Talk. Maybe you don't even have to answer that question. Just talk to me about how do we convince boards. To get on board with AI and specifically the certification. Amme, take that one. Amith Nagarajan: Happy to. So I've been asked to speak to a number of boards by CEOs who believe that AI is going to drive change, but they're books don't buy it yet. And so what's Dave Will: your email [00:23:00] address Amith? Amith Nagarajan: It's Amith@bluecypress.io, just a Amith@bluecypress.io. Feel free. Dave Will: I figured that might be a good time to plug that in there in case somebody wants your help and convince you for it. But go on, tell, what do you tell? Amith Nagarajan: I love doing that, Dave. And hit me on LinkedIn too. I'm on LinkedIn a little bit too obsessively, but I've been asked to speak to a bunch of boards over time and speak at conferences and stuff, and when I do this. What I typically am sensing in the room is that the board doesn't yet really buy into the vision of their staff that they've hired that, whether it's the CEO, others, and part of that is because they don't think that those folks necessarily know that much about ai. It was a year or two ago that boards generally themselves that didn't have much of an idea of ai, but now I'm finding that boards, they're not necessarily super well educated in ai, but they have a. Much better sense of it than they did a year or two ago, but they're not necessarily feeling that their staff is prepared. And so when they bring in an outside expert to say, okay, this is the way AI can shape the association, that is helpful. But it doesn't matter how many outside [00:24:00] experts you get, we've got tons of them over here. Our business includes chewing, lots of consulting. We've got software companies that produce AI products. We think, obviously they're all great, but they will make absolutely zero difference to your association by themselves if you don't educate your own people. And so the point of the certification is to bolster confidence in yourself that you know a good bit about AI and to showcase to your community, including your board, that you're prepared to do this. And so that's just step one. Now I will say two quick things about education that are really important. And I think this is true for all education. It's extremely true for AI specifically, and that is you have to start small. You can't just start, you can't swallow the elephant in one bite, and two is you have to maintain your knowledge. You cannot assume that just because you have earned a certification, whatever certification it is that you're quote unquote good on AI because AI is changing at this ridiculously fast rate. Even those of us who spend basically all of our waking hours trying to learn this stuff, deploy it, build solutions with it, we're all overwhelmed if [00:25:00] we tell you the truth. It's extremely overwhelming. The technology is doubling in power at roughly a six month interval. So just think about that for a minute. Every six months that this technology doubles in power, that makes Moore's Law, which we benefited from and still benefit from for decades. Quaint in comparison. Moore's Law basically stated that computing would double in power relative to price roughly every 24 months. And it did like clockwork for years and years. And the compounding of that resulted in actually what. Powers ai, but it was actually a very slow curve compared to what's happening now. So the point is that knowing what you think you know about ai, if your knowledge is circa 2025 and it's 2026, you're outta date. And so from our perspective, the way we try to approach it is to get you started with small, consumable bites and then to keep feeding you over time. So our program isn't a one and done. Yes, there's the certification. Most people earn it in about six to eight weeks of time. It's about 20 hours of total time [00:26:00] commitment to earn it. But the key to it is that to maintain your certification, you have to do work every year. You have to do a certain number of additional education. This is very common in association certification programs. We provide a couple courses a year that are what we call refreshers that update your knowledge. So that you can understand what's changed every six months. And then in addition to that, we ask you to complete some additional coursework, either from us at sidecar or from anyone else that you choose, that you bring to us and we authenticate. So I think it's really important to think about both of those dimensions. It's a start small because otherwise you'll be overwhelmed by it. You won't do anything. Most people I know, they say, I really wanna get started with ai, but I haven't had time. And I ask them, okay, what about 15 minutes tomorrow morning? Do you have 15 minutes tomorrow morning? And they say, yeah, I could probably make 15 minutes tomorrow morning. I'm like, okay, cool. Do that. And then what about the next morning? You have 15 minutes and so on, right? And it's, the idea is if you carve out a small amount of time, it can take you 15 minutes. If you've got a half an hour, even better. But do something every day. Listen to a [00:27:00] podcast, play with some type of software, read a book, watch a YouTube video. There's so many resources. Obviously Sidecar has great content that's at this intersection, but if you do something consistently, that's when you're gonna become an expert. You have to stay at it. Dave Will: Jason, tell me about your experience. As a CEO there leading the charge with ai, and tell me what was relevant, whether it was your exchange at the board, or your influence of your employees, or maybe it's the interest started at the staff level and they brought you along. Tell me about your experience in embracing AI at ITI. Jason Oxman: Yeah, and I think as we've been talking about, there's some natural hesitancy to overcome because people are worried about what it means for their jobs. Dave Will: Were you hesitant or was your staff hesitant? Jason Oxman: I think the staff was hesitant. Okay. The board was certainly, and our board is not made up of technical experts. Ironically, given who we represented as an industry, the board conversation was more about [00:28:00] just making sure that the tools we use are beneficial to the membership. But we took a bottom up approach to it. We didn't take a top down approach because the board was not driving the conversation about AI usage. It was more about people on the staff being familiar with the industry. We represent all of the large model companies that are making these AI tools available. So it's obviously part of our daily life here at the organization, but not the technical side. Again, we are a government affairs policy focused organization. So that bottom up approach meant we had a staff team that we formed, a staff working group who were interested in using AI to develop the. Policies and procedures for the use. 'cause that's important to have on board the acceptable use policy. How do we use it? How, what do we disclose about when we're using AI with a membership? But also just looking at what kind of tasks were amenable to using AI to improve. So we started with use cases. Small ones that were actually pretty easy to deploy. Summaries of meetings, for example, email [00:29:00] drafting, for example, research on behalf of our members rather than trying to revolutionize everything at once and take on AI capabilities for everything. And that bottom up approach led to the rest of the organization saying, oh, I see you can actually use AI in a way that makes it more efficient. You can do minutes of committee meetings a lot more quickly and move on to something else that's more strategic. So that approach really worked to help the rest of the staff. See this as an opportunity. See the tools as something that could, IM improve the way they were able to do their jobs. Dave Will: Jason, what's the best way to reach you if people wanna connect with you? Jason Oxman: I'm on LinkedIn at J-O-X-M-A-N, Jason Oxman, or my email address is joxman@itic.org. Dave Will: Amith. Jason, thank you for the time today. Is there anything that's in the back of your mind that you wish I asked? Is there anything you wanna say before we wrap it up? Amith, why don't you go first if you have something. Amith Nagarajan: I have a quick thing, which is the question people often don't [00:30:00] ask, but are probably thinking, which is, why should I do this right now? Yeah. My answer to that is very simple. The speed at which this is moving will leave you behind if you don't get started. It is totally something you can do no matter where you're at today, but that won't always be true if you just sit on it. You have to go take action. I think every leader at every level needs to do this. This is not a thing for staff. This is a thing for CEOs. This is a thing for boards. This is a thing for everyone, and on the everyone comment I'll end with. I think that if you do not provide your staff with both the opportunity and frankly the mandate to learn AI, you're not only really underserving your own organization, but you're hurting your people. The question you should ask yourself is those who are not. Very skilled with AI within six, 12, certainly 24 months. Will they be sought after as employees by you or by any other organization? And the answer is a pretty clear no. That you will not be employable [00:31:00] if you don't know ai. So as a leader, it's really your responsibility to make sure your team's future is bright with you and perhaps beyond your organization. And so that's why I think this is such a serious topic for us to jump on. Dave Will: Amith, you said an interesting word, “mandate,” and I gotta say, at least in my company, granted we're a software company, but I don't think it's about software. We get so excited, like we get so worked up and excited about the things we're doing differently using ai. I do not need to mandate. The interest. We, I don't need to force it down people's throats. People love digging in. And the more, like most things, the more you get passionate about something, the more you want to do it over and over. And it's incredible the passion we have on our end around ai. Jason, anything you want to add before we wrap this? Jason Oxman: The only thing I'd add to your excellent questions, Dave, is the question of [00:32:00] associations thinking about how to improve their own practices and procedures using ai. We've been talking about that kind of the inward looking questions, but also encouraging some outward looking questions. Associations have customers who are their members, they represent industries. What can associations deploy these tools on behalf of their members, make capabilities available that serve their members or the industries they represent. And obviously, Amith has done exactly that with the partnership with ASAE, ASAE's customers, their community, their members are other associations. So these tools that Amith has has deployed on behalf of the association community are what ASAE is providing to their customers. But of course, there's an association for everything. So we should all be thinking about how we can help our members and our industries. Also use these tools to help satisfy the challenges that they have through AI education. Dave Will: That's a great point, Jason. Some of the most innovative associations that I've worked with in the past have built their own software companies or [00:33:00] invested in software companies or come up with incredibly creative. Tools or services for their members that drive additional revenue? Uh, yeah, that's a great point, Jason. Amith Nagarajan: I agree completely with that. I just wanna say that that's where associations looking at the industries they serve are going to thrive because those are the services and products that people want to buy from you, that they're not yet buying from your associations. And it's also. A completely achievable goal. We actually help a bunch of associations create branded, tailored content just for their industries, and there's lots of ways to go about that, but it's an achievable goal, and it's something I think associations are perfectly positioned to go after and both capitalize on and deliver extraordinarily value to their members. Dave Will: And to add to the list. I'm Dave Will, also on LinkedIn. My email is dave@propfuel.com. Thank you, Jason. Thank you Amith. And thank you to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key [00:34:00] topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world.
#18
January 29 · 42 min
Practical AI: How Associations Are Putting It to Work
In the first episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare, Director of Partnerships at HighRoad Solutions and co-host of the Rethink Association Podcast, sits down with Lance Wiggins, CEO of the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association, and Layla Masri, Vice President of Customer and Product Intelligence, AI Strategy, and Adoption at Higher Logic, to explore how associations are using AI in meaningful and unexpected ways. Lance and Layla share their professional journeys and discuss how AI is being applied to real-world association challenges—from improving efficiency and reducing errors to strengthening member engagement. Lance highlights how AI tools have reshaped technical support and training within his organization, while Layla emphasizes the value of starting small and building confidence through early, impactful wins. The conversation also addresses the importance of using trusted platforms, like Higher Logic, to adopt AI securely and responsibly. Throughout the episode, the guests underscore how thoughtful AI implementation can free up staff time, improve service delivery, and deepen relationships with members. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/T_L5q9QcfDA This episode is sponsored by Higher Logic. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to the inaugural episode of Associations NOW Presents Industry Partner series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, director of Partnerships at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot solutions and implementation partner, and your hosts of this series throughout the year. This episode today is sponsored by Higher Logic. Today we're excited to welcome Lance Wiggins, CEO of Automatic Transmission Rebuilds Association, and Layla Masri, VP of Customer and Product Intelligence, AI Strategy and Adoption at Higher Logic. Layla, Lance, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to be with us today. Lance Wiggins: Thanks for having me. Sharon Pare: Well, before we dive in, I'd love for each of you to give a quick introduction for our listeners a little bit about who you are. The organizations you represent, and since we're talking about AI today, I wanna know, this is a little bit of an icebreaker here, but [00:01:00] what is one way professionally or personally that you've unexpectedly started using ai? Layla Masri: All right, so yeah. Thank you Layla Masri. So I am a new hire to Higher Logic, but come from a very deep association marketing background. Many of you in the association space know me from 20 plus years that I ran my own digital agency. Worked with tons of different membership associations doing web and app development, interactive. Capabilities and so I'm very excited to help Higher Logic, head up AI practices, and build out what is looking to be an extremely robust pipeline for 2026 and beyond. I have used AI most recently in some really fascinating ways. I have used it. To craft jokes to send to my kids really bad Dad jokes. I have used it to create the proper ratio for hanging photos on a [00:02:00] wall. I have most recently used it. I am going on vacation shortly and I used it to help me strategize my itinerary where a couple friends were joining in the middle of a trip. So I had to optimize the key sightseeing moments, but then also build in a really robust amount of things around it. Super geeky, very helpful. Sharon Pare: Love it. How about you Lance? Lance Wiggins: I am the CEO of the Automatic Transmission Rebuild Association. I have been with this company since 1999. The company has been in existence since 1954, celebrating our 70 plus birthday here shortly. We are the only association in an entire planet Earth that does this. We are a facility that we do research training for transmission shops internationally. We have a little over 2000 shops in the United States. From coast to coast, north to south, we have rebuilder and [00:03:00] warranties that go from Canada, all the way through, the United States. We have chapters that are in Canada, chapters that are in Latin America, chapters that are in Australia, Asia, Australia, chapters that are formulating now currently in the UK as well. Primarily our goal is to help transmission shops fix your vehicle. There are billions of vehicles out there right now with automatic transmissions in them, how to diagnose 'em, how to fix 'em, how to repair 'em, how to, and also to make sure that we are servicing the customer. We are all servants here at the association, so our culture is of that. I've been a coach for 25 years, so I know how to coach people. I know how to coach other things. Believe it or not, we've actually been using AI in the automotive industry since, I'm guessing it started back in 19 96, 97 when we had adaptive strategies for transmission. So [00:04:00] adaptive strategies on any vehicle. Once you rebuild the vehicle, rebuild the transmission, it doesn't know who's the, who the driver is. It doesn't know what the baselines are. It's basically when it gets rebuilt and reinstalled, you can consider it. A toddler, it doesn't have any idea how to walk or shift, right? Or who the driver is. Some drivers are leadfoot, others are soft foot. You adapt the transmission and once the shifts start getting better and you start getting smoother, then you give it to the customer, and the customer say, it didn't shift this smooth before. I liked it when it shifted. A little bit firmer. Typically, we will tell 'em, give it a couple weeks and come back for your checkup. If in a couple weeks it's still the same way, we'll take a look at it, but more than likely, it's gonna adapt to who you are. We currently use AI for our technical hotline through Hire Logic, actually, and or one of our partners. We've, we've named our AI assistant techie go figure, and in we can ask it [00:05:00] all kinds of cool questions about automatic transmissions. It pulls everything from our 90,000 pages of data and it's really helping our association and our members gather information a lot faster than making the phone call and going through that, that, that pro, that process. Sharon Pare: I think that's incredible. Lance, in the nineties, adaptive strategies and AI existed before I think we even knew what AI was. So love to hear about this in the podcast today, and we're going to dig into the six points that Layla has shared about AI adoption that has come up again and again in conversations across our industry. So I think the perfect time to unpack them. Is today from both the technology and the association perspective. So let's kick it off. And Lance, I know you're about to just get into this here too, but there are so many organizations that are getting stuck thinking they need some type of full strategy before they can even start. So Lance Layla, I'll leave this open for both of you, but how are you identifying that [00:06:00] first meaningful use case for ai? And Lance, if you wanna dig into this phone line system, or Layla, how you help them implement this, that'd be a great start. Lance Wiggins: Sure. So we have had technical department. Since the late eighties, and typically you want to go, for those of y'all that don't know about faxes, fax mill was a big thing back in the day, right? And so if somebody would call with a problem on a vehicle, we would go through the different scenarios, fax them over a check sheet, or, or a fix, or definitions or specifications, whatever the case may be. That's how that would go. Then email became a thing, and then now with our AI, what the way we use it is actually a lot more efficient, a lot faster. It's freeing up our technician's time. Even when the phone call comes in, we actually, our technicians go to the AI assistant with [00:07:00] 90,000 pieces of material that we've done in over the course of 35, 40 years. Nobody knows where everything's at, and this is, it's literally, this is like going to a library back in the day. If I date myself at 55 years old, back in the day, you actually went to a Rolodex and you opened it up and you pulled out the card and you went over to the location where it was at. This is exactly the same thing, just a heck of a lot faster, and we found that the timing that we have to actually do more research on vehicles. It's unprecedented. We just have a lot more time to, to actually dig into real world problems that prior to that we just, we didn't have that much time. So it's working for us. Layla Masri: That's a perfect use case and a great way to dip your toe into the water is to figure out what you have already on hand and or what things you're struggling with. If there's something you're doing, your staff are doing 50 times a day or a week, [00:08:00] those are things that are just absolutely slam dunk opportunities to look and see if there's a way that AI can optimize and assist with those types of repetitive tasks. It frees up your stuff to do the more needy subject matter expertise, like really digging in with personalized service. I've found that that has been a really great way to dig in there. Associations somewhat stereotypically, I will say, have. Often been somewhat risk averse and we've seen so much technology come our way of faxes, right? Websites, apps, all of these things like I have lived through the development and creation of those things. I've helped people implement them, and I think any new technology is gonna come across initially is big and scary. You're worried. Do I have the time, the people, the budget to learn one more new thing to implement this. But there's also that balance of understanding that your members are expecting you to go places with them and to be somewhat forward thinking. So the [00:09:00] thing that is so promising about AI is that this is the lowest risk technology pilot that I've seen in 20 plus years. You don't need extra budget, you don't need extra people. You can bite off just the teens CS piece and especially using tools like Higher Logic where they're built in. And for our customers, they're free to charge as well. It's great to just test your, you put your toe in the water, test them things, and then iterate and build from there, which is exactly what Lance and the team are doing. Sharon Pare: And I know a lot of folks are still feeling really intimidated by ai, but I love that toe in the water analogy that you just mentioned, Layla. So. What does that actually look like for associations who are starting to explore ai? I know you started talking about it a little bit, but what are some of those smaller, low risk ways that they can start experimenting with it now? Layla Masri: Sure. I can give you two examples that we actually have inside of our Higher Logic Thrive software that are already going gangbusters and are gonna be built out with a lot more functionality in 2026. So one of [00:10:00] them is the idea of an ai cis. Right. We're at this point, a lot of us are using things like chat, GPT. Lots of us have already used chatbots in various ways across different websites, not just in the association space, but whether you're traveling or whatever. A lot of the kind of back and forth with a chatbot, and that's the lowest I think, hanging fruit that you can implement right now. And the wonderful thing about using an assistant. Is that you can create a closed wall garden of your content because certainly a lot of associations, of course, we're investing in our own content. We are curating, and that's part of what your membership value is, getting that specialized content that you can only get with a membership. So we don't wanna put that out into the world. You don't wanna feed that into the chat GPT and let everyone have it. It devalues the membership. It devalues the importance of that research and the exclusivity of your content. With chatbots like the AI assistant, you can actually have that [00:11:00] walled garden where you can say, I would like you to search within my, my repertoire of all of my documents Lance was saying. Go through that look and see what's available. You can send me to relevant documents. You can suggest events. You can basically pull from all of the things in your learning management system and your content management system, and you can quickly get people to places. However, we all have seen the Yeah, but you might not have the right thing that I want. And I think one of the best things that we have been implementing is this idea of. Ask my fellow human if I don't get the right answer, if I'm not seeing what I want, or, this is interesting, but I want more. That's the real value is not replacing the human being, but giving you access to information and then allowing you to pose that back to your member community, to then richen the experience and truly. Take what you've learned from that initial pass with a chat bot, for example, and then take that out into the world and see what your fellow humans are actually experiencing. So it's a really [00:12:00] nice blend of, again, trying out functionality, but also ensuring that you are getting the best of what your colleagues and your professional network have to add to that. Sharon Pare: And Lance, I've got one for you. And I know that the A TRA has been familiar with AI for quite some time here now, but was there something that made it feel. More manageable for your team instead of overwhelming that you can recommend. Lance Wiggins: So for us, it's interesting. I have to digress back to my, my history really as a coach and a football coach, I'm used to change. Literally you change every half. Sometimes you change in the quarters, sometimes you change of practice. So the whole aspect of new, to me, it's like it's, I'd live it. Our culture here is very much the same. We love technology. We absolutely thrive in technology, right? We, we looked for ways to do things more efficient [00:13:00] and to be better, to better serve essentially our members. The internet was a big deal back in the day when we launched, we actually launched. ATRA online back in the late nineties, early two thousands. It was like, oh man, look at, this is magical. And it was pages and pages and pages and nobody minds scrolling. Nobody. You'd search for something, you'd scroll and scroll and scroll, and you'd finally find something, maybe you didn't. Then we decided to add some descriptions, and then that was a big deal, right? And then we decided to add just the transmissions, and then that was a big deal. Now. When you go to the internet, we the company, we don't go to the internet. We go to an ai. We either go to Gemini or we go to chat GBT, or we go to Gro or we go to Techie. So if we're inside of our higher logic profile, we go to techie. We ask that question in techie, and if he doesn't know. With a [00:14:00] few adjustments that we made because Allis want to give you an answer. They all, it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, they want to give you something, feel compelled to just give you something which we appreciate. But in our world, if we give them something that is inaccurate, that could cost 'em thousands of dollars, it could cost some customers, it can cost us thousands of dollars and customers on our end, we've worked really hand in hand with. Higher logic to, to try to finite our material because it's 275 different types of transmissions out there at any given time. Uh, 2000, if you go back to 40 years from now, and each one of 'em, while they're different, they work the same internally. The rules virtually the same. And if we don't have the information, we want them to go ask a human, along with what Layla was saying. If somebody goes on and says, I have this transmission with this problem. And our AI assistant gives them an answer, [00:15:00] but it's not what they're looking for. They can simply ask a human, and then, and now they have a chance to ask 12,000 different individuals, including our technical department and the, and now the answers that come in are. Become part of the AI as well. So it's gonna continually keep learning and learning where that did not happen before, but that wasn't even a part of our thought process. Now, to give our members an opportunity to see this, to give our own technical department an opportunity, and I want to say this, there were times where we didn't really know what question to ask, and with the formulation of ai. You're asking questions, you didn't even, because you're getting an answer, wait a minute, and then you ask another question, then it, and then another question, and then all of a sudden, four hours later you find yourself, ah, that's the answer I'm looking for. But it's a wonderful tool that we're currently using and, and I just, it's gonna enhance our association. It's gonna propel us into another [00:16:00] sector, another sector that we've never been in before, actually. Sharon Pare: I think that's a really great point, and I think this brings us to one of our next key points. It's, we're talking to ai, it keeps iterating with us. But I wanna ask this, Layla, but where do you see AI helping associations, reducing those human bottlenecks or operational slowdowns? I know that's a another key point that you mentioned has been brought up time and time again, but is there, what do you see there? Layla Masri: Yeah, I mean, there is a concern that people have that, like Lance mentioned, it is very important that you can validate that the information that people are getting suggested to them by AI is what will be helpful. It is the right answer. So that's always a key concern. Of course, knowing that the information is coming out of your system makes it a very trusted experience. But ironically, avoiding AI sometimes is often riskier than using it, presumably because it can help catch mistakes. It can help reduce [00:17:00] some of the things that human error can introduce. AI can often solve for that. But I think the real beauty of AI is that it's just, it's so fast you can get answers in seconds, and like we said, if you don't get that answer, your tools can prompt you where to go next or can ask you questions you didn't think about. That's one of the things I love about using some of the tools like GPT, et cetera. Where they all, they never just give you the information they end with. Could I help you find an event to go to that would cover this information? Or are you looking for resources? May I connect you to a Higher Logic community where this is being discussed. So it's really a lovely way to keep that conversation going. As I mentioned, reducing repetitive staff tasks that can introduce inconsistency. That's a great way. To employ ai. It can also help if you have a small staff, which many people do. You can use AI to help teams respond to [00:18:00] things faster. So actually providing better member service and then being able to funnel people that do need that kind of personal assistance, but you do help reduce that overall workload. And then really it's like having an insurance that you are providing a timely communications with people, it standardizes a lot of the delivery of that material because typically if you're reaching out to a customer service, you're getting my way of telling you this information or Lance's way of telling you this for information. The nice thing is you can have that beautiful quality control. This is how we want to talk about these things, or these are the kinds of resources that we want to offer. So it does provide a lot. Of risk reduction and it does speed up operation so that it again frees you up to do the things that humans are really good at. Sharon Pare: Lance, is there an example where AI has helped her team to work smart and avoid errors? Just digging into what Layla had just mentioned Lance Wiggins: soon. I'll say that the transmission is a very complex piece of machinery, [00:19:00] so at any given time in a transmission, he could have 500. Pieces of parts, right? Our system and the way that it uses our material is again, based on what we've loaded into, and pretty much we've loaded almost everything. It's learning our videos, it's learning our rebuilding videos. So to give you that example, we asked a question last week on how to rebuild a pump. Assembly from a 10 R one R 80 transmission, and it gave us some generic information. A week later, we asked the same question. Not only did it give us the accurate specifications, but it also gave us three sources to go and look and view for our pleasure as well. So now you can go to the [00:20:00] PDF, you can go to the video. You can see how the pump is built. So as it's learning, like I mentioned, it's like a toddler now. Maybe it's a five year old and seven year old. And the more information you give it, the fungi year it becomes, and really for us, it's just making sure that the information we're giving it is accurate. And our technicians, we've got 300 years of technical experience between everybody here, including myself. When we build things and we edit. We make sure that quality control maintains The difference is if you, if you drop that stuff into Gemini or drop that stuff in a chat, it, it pulls from all over the place. That's where you can get in trouble. Yep. You can really get in trouble. Layla Masri: If I could add one other item. As you said, it's every month, every day. It feels that the agents, these engines are getting smarter and smarter. There are things that I can do now that six months ago wasn't [00:21:00] able to do. Same for pretty much anybody across the AI universe. The half-life on improvements is just. Astonishing. And I think what we're really seeing is AI is improving in a way that allows us to get better info to answer things more accurately. And in fact, that's what Higher Logic is devoting a lot of our roadmap and AI development to do. And this is what we're focusing on right now. And then definitely for 2026 and beyond ongoing releases. And you mentioned, Lance, you mentioned adding video and that's one of the things that I am personally so excited about. Is the ability for AI to add transcription to video and to be able to search it. How game changer that is. If you like this exact podcast, being able to search for text and language and phrasing inside a video like that is. Super exciting. Sharon Pare: Our logic unifies your community marketing, learning events, and more into a complete engagement [00:22:00] ecosystem. So every member touchpoint feels connected and personal. With AI powered campaigns and vibrant online communities, members feel seen, supported, and excited to engage every day. And because everything works together, your staff spends less time wrestling with tech and more time achieving your mission. Plus you get built-in strategic guidance and support to boost retention and turn passive members into passionate advocates. See how higher logic is revolutionizing engagement by booking your demo@higherlogic.com. I wanna shift gears a little bit. See what I did there, Lance? Layla Masri: Anyway. You mean to need chat GPT or write your dad joke for that? Sharon Pare: Just ask my dad. Dad jokes of association. We talked last week and you both said that this is the first time we've all had, we've had technology that's now truly accessible to everyone. So what do you think makes AI different from some of those past digital tools? Lance Wiggins: For us, it's. [00:23:00] By far, it's the speed of searchability. It's the q and a. It's the informal formal conversation. You, as you're talking to our techie program, it's asking other questions, and then as you're having that conversation back and forth, it's like. When we have a brand new trend that we, we actually have a brand new transmission down there from Toyota. It is state of the art. It's a CVT transmission that doesn't have, uh, a belt in it. It's two electric motors that run this. It is state of the art. It is the future of CVTs. It's pretty awesome. We pulled it apart, so you got three guys sitting there pulling it apart, figuring out how to pull this thing apart. There's no videos on it. There's the Toyota hasn't released anything on it. We're all bouncing stuff off of each other, right? And so we're taking pictures and we're doing things. The motor is the same type of motor that's used in other, like Elon Musk has in this Teslas, right? Same type of motor. So I'm, all right, let's, [00:24:00] let's go to our programs and we start researching some of the programs, start finding out how the motor actually works. Now we can put it into our own words, how that works. Once that happens, we put it into our higher logic platform. Now when we do the videos where we do the shoots, we do the, anybody that gets on there when they search this transmission is gonna have an endless supply of material that they can't get. They can't get it from Toyota. That's another thing that I think is very interesting is all of the manufacturers, all of them back in the day. We used to go to a helm, a bookstore, and purchase shop manuals for every manufacturer out there. Toyota, Ford, General Motors, Chrysler. The ones you couldn't get really were BMW and Volkswagen, but we don't really have a lot of those units in the United States as much as they do in Europe. But you, that's where we purchased our library and would fill up rooms. I'd have hundreds. Thousands of books, [00:25:00] and you'd go to a book and you'd open the book and you'd go to the page and you'd find the page and you'd scan the page and you'd fax the page and so on and so forth. And then when everything went digital, now you could get it digitally, but the subscription, right? Like anything else that you purchased, there's a subscription. The subscription cost, if you don't use it once or twice a month, people start thinking, I'm not gonna really use that. We started building that into our own subscription. Like any other association, when you have material that will help your members, you build it, you research it, you build it, you put the training together, and now you have that information. So what we're doing now currently is building that information for the future. So next year when they get into, it's all gonna be accessible to 'em. That's proprietary. That's not out in the world until somebody gets that transmission and decides to throw it on YouTube. But do I actually trust that guy? I don't know. I would much rather trust the association that's been around since [00:26:00] 1954 doing transmissions since 1954, 90,000 plus technical things and 300 plus years of material. It's a game changer for us. It's just huge. It's just a, it's a great opportunity for us to do things that we haven't really had the opportunity of doing with less people. We have a saying, you can only go as fast as the slowest car in front of you. And that's a true statement, right? But when there's no cars on the road, look out, man, we could, we can get up and get to it. This is just, it's just changing the way we do business, literally right in front of our eyes. Sharon Pare: It really is, and I wanted to add something in here and throw this in. Especially as you say, you can only go as fast as the car in front of you. And I was thinking about this over the weekend, and a lot of our for-profit peers, right? Us in the tax exempt world, our for-profit peers. I think that the level playing field of AI is now, we're all behind that same curve. Do you think this is an opportunity for the association world as historically? [00:27:00] We've always been a little bit behind that curve. Is this time for us to be able to set that tone and innovate with this technology? Now, what do you, I would love, Layla Masri: I think AI tools are modular, so modular that I think it really lends itself to really. Making a jump in deciding what you wanna try so you can turn on AI for a single workflow or single campaign. You don't have to take this huge leap of faith. You can just take a leap of curiosity or a step of curiosity and say, what would it be like if we tried this one thing? Even if it's something that's just for one department of your organization, you can try that. You can try AI without making like an overarching. Commitment to ai and what that means is that there's no IT lift. You're not talking about like integrations, you're talking about staff that can run like micro experiments off the side of their desk like Lance is describing. And you can then determine what's the ROI on this? So that if you can, if you decide that this is something you wanna take [00:28:00] more broadly through your organization, then you can explain. We ran a test on it. The test took us an hour to set up in our existing tools. We ran it for this amount of time. These are the results we would like to now implement this through the rest of our organization. And assuming, of course, those results are highly positive, whether it's we've reduced staff time, we have things like smart campaigns in higher logic Thrive, where you can actually use AI to. To generate very hyper targeted micro campaigns to do the stuff that staff usually doesn't have time to do. Like encouraging people to join a committee or to update their profiles so that you can best customize experiences for them. Really important stuff. A lot of times people don't have the time to do those things, so if you can bite off these little pieces, show that they work, it's just a great way to, to jump in your staff benefits. Your members will feel it after that. And these like snowball effect of these internal winds make the innovation and the reach of [00:29:00] it and your expansion of that seem a lot less scary and gets people more excited about it. Sharon Pare: So question for you both when you are saying to just start going out there and peak that curiosity by actually using it. What defines a trusted platform for everyone to start it? And is it security, is it usability? Is there something else? What would you say is a great place to start, Layla Masri: if I can jump in on that one? Of course, higher Logic has built this into our tools and is continuing to build this into. Platform, and I think regardless of what you use working with ai, the safest way to try ai, I believe, is inside of a trusted platform. Because as Lance mentioned, if you go out and start to roll your own, you can be introducing a variety of different issues. For example, taking proprietary content and putting that out on the internet. Diminishes the value of your organization. It also requires IT assistance to make sure that you are tapping [00:30:00] into the proper agents or LLMs, et cetera, that you're able to move this content around and have it digestible and output. So that would mean like writing APIs and not like people's heads are probably like, yeah. Too much tech, right? It gets overwhelming. So anytime that you can try something, anything of a tech experiment, I think it's always best to try it inside of a platform because the data stays where you're already governing it. You are not worried about uploading many things sensitive, as I mentioned, and then. The great news is that the AI and what it does and its outputs, can also follow the same permissions and rules that you have set up in the rest of your systems. So starting where your data already lives, it means that you can just work with inside your tech stack and you don't have to do anything special to it. You're just enhancing it. I'm sure. Lance, you have some thoughts on that? Lance Wiggins: Yeah. Interestingly enough for us, the majority of the people that currently work for the association aren't. Brand new. We've [00:31:00] had a 30 year turnover, so most of the people that had worked with us had been with the company for 30 plus years. My, I've been with the company for 26. Those groups of bodies are retiring and the newer groups, which are much more. Used to working in these types of platforms are the ones that are suggesting these type of platforms. So it's, I'm a father of six kids. I understand how this goes from the age of 24 to 33. So I've got a pretty good span of technology that they use. Some things I do, some things I don. Our material is proprietary to an extent. We produce material, we do members and non-member events. We have books that we have that we sell to members and non-members. And believe it or not, there are people that scan it, put it on the internet for everybody to use. That's cheaters will be cheaters. That's how that works, right? But having something that we can. Sandbox [00:32:00] and it's our own material. You can't put a price tag on that. That's where this particular scenario and using the AI platform within higher logic, for us, it's a game changer. Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's gonna take us to a place that we probably thought if we're gonna go with some other larger companies that are out there, the price tag is. B beyond expectations. This works this and they're working with us. That's another thing. OG is a great company. They are literally partners with us. So as we give them something, they give us something back and then we collaborate and say, this is where we're at. We are very unique. We are the unicorn of unicorns. But there are no other company like ours. They are companies like. No other association like ours, you can't just put a blanket and say, this is good for all associations. Some associations are different than others, and this is the best part about this and working with them, is that we can give them our problems, tell them where we're at, and then they're creating solutions that are not only [00:33:00] helping us, but also could help other associations as well. Sharon Pare: I think this will be an interesting note to end on for our podcast. We've run out of time, but speaking of time, we talked a lot about how AI has given our staff that time back too, right? And I wanna keep this one a little bit more generic, but what do you think associations. Could accomplish if they did have 10% more, 20% more of their time back each week, because now they're using these technologies that are now in place at the organization and either one of you can jump in. Layla Masri: Sure. I'll start. So I think in terms of using AI that's giving. Time back to their staff. That's not changing. Member experiences. The, so I'll summarize the things that I think AI would be fabulous use for in terms of how we're saving time. So drafting, marketing copy, summarizing discussion threads and [00:34:00] communities, suggesting engagement messages, auto tagging, categorizing content. Those things are huge. If Lance can say to his team, Hey. We can use AI to do those kinds of things. Then what it allows his team to do, and I'll of course let you speak to this with the specifics, Lance, but like theoretically across all organizations, so you're then not asking a staffer to, Hey, pull out that generic email that you send every time someone asks you for X. Or if people are needing resources on these 10 things and we just have a list and you have to send them out. That's probably not the best use of that person's time. You really wanna use them for strategizing, for analyzing, for sitting with your membership and actually providing like real customer experience and customer input so that helping them actually problem solve and or ideate on really bold and audacious [00:35:00] things, whether it's marketing, whether it's event planning, you name it, community engagement. Those are the things where people. Are really great at doing that, and you build those relationships. That's why AI has, in my opinion, an area where it sits in helping manage, digest, and surface information, but it's never gonna replace that value, the human being. And that's why we join organizations, right? We're not just getting it for information. So much of it is about the community, about learning from your peers, sharing your subject matter expertise. That's what I think the staff of an organization. Are also best free to do when you introduce those efficiencies of ai. Lance Wiggins: Yeah, a hundred percent. For our association, it's, it's an aged association. If anybody's listening to the news, you got Ford CEO going on there saying, we, we have a technician shortage, et cetera, et cetera. That's true because quite frankly, we told everybody to go to college and been tell 'em to work on cars. So [00:36:00] it's the way that the world works, right? Like we mentioned earlier, it's the world's a different place than it was 30 seconds ago, even 30 years ago, right? The curiosity is there for our staff. We spent most of the time gathering lists getting. Dues shipped out, answering incoming calls, getting events organized. We failed miserably at communicating with our people. And to me that is the most important thing. If we don't talk to our people and we don't have a relationship with our members, there's a huge question they ask. Why am I a member? It's very simple. And if they think that we don't care. They think that we're just an entity, a body that collects dues, chances are they'll leave. And once they're gone, as any association would know, they're, it's very [00:37:00] hard to give back. So from our perspective, it's helping us with time to make those phone calls, to create those relationships, to maintain those relationships. So much so that on Wednesday before Thanksgiving. We had maybe three or four calls come in the entire day. And so I told the crew, I said, listen, if y'all wanna take off, go ahead. Just forward the calls to me and I'll take 'em for you. And a call came in as a gentleman. He said, oh, I gotta pay my dues. And I said, and I answered the phone. Thank you for calling ATRA, this is Lance. He says, who? And I said, Lance, he goes, Lance Wiggins. I said, yeah. He goes, I didn't mean to call you. I know, but I'm here. What's up? How you doing? What's going on? You about ready for Thanksgiving. And we started having a conversation that was real. It was just a true conversation. And he said, I gotta pay my due. I gave, I let everybody go home early to go visit with their families. Can we give you a call on Monday? He says, [00:38:00] absolutely. I said, why don't you take the rest of the day off as well and we'll see you on Monday. And he, you can hear him smile. You can just feel he felt like I was treating him like a human, as we all should be doing. And as I mentioned before, we're servants. We should be serving these people. And that's the part of the game that a lot of companies don't. You're not just a number, you're not just a bed, you're not just a car. You're human beings with, with families, with people. You need to get those people to those locations. You need to help the young bucks, the ones, the new blood that's coming in. They can't be afraid of failure, right? In our industry, we learned a lot By failing that was part of the game plan. Now we can learn. Gather information and reduce the failures, but also gain the valuable experience that we need sooner than later. All of our shop owners and technicians that are in their forties, when you look at a 20-year-old kid coming through the door and he's [00:39:00] got a few tools here and there, he may or may not know how to use 'em, who knows? But if you put 'em in front of the, our video programs. You put 'em in front of a, a, an AI program on our community forum and say, Hey, research something on this. And then, and when you're done, I want you to come over 'cause I'm actually working on that vehicle. I want you to see what it looks like in real life. I don't know that you can get better training in that. So it, it's a, it's an opportunity for us to, to just have more time to spend with them rather than having more time to spend. Licking stamps and sticking them on an envelope. It's just one of those things. Sharon Pare: Lance, thank you so much for sharing your story, especially CEO of ATRA, picking up the phone call on Thanksgiving and a member not knowing the CEO of ATRA is picking up the phone, but giving them that true member experience. I'd love to know any final thoughts before we conclude the podcast today? Layla Masri: I'll just say [00:40:00] that I think that speaks to the power of ai, that Lance felt confident that there were enough supports and tools to do more with less, that he felt confident that. It could hold down the fort while people were away enjoying their families and that things would continue to hum along and members would continue to be able to get service. And also the special treat of getting to talk to the CEO, that's pretty amazing. And I just wanna say thank you to Lance because. It's never a good idea to build anything, especially software in a vacuum, and being able to ideate with our customers and understand exactly what they need and how they need it oftentimes surfaces things that we wouldn't have even thought of. So it's just such a treat to be able to have that direct connection and to listen and learn from each other and to build something that is super helpful together. Lance Wiggins: A hundred percent agree with that. It's teamwork is the dream work. Yeah. I appreciate you guys for having me on. This has been great. Sharon Pare: I wanna [00:41:00] personally thank you, Lance, and thank you Layla for sharing your insights, both of your experience, your expertise for the conversation today. And that does it for this episode of Association NOW Presents Industry partner series. We'll have these special episodes throughout the year, and please make sure to join us each month overall as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the U.S. and the world. We wanna give a big thanks to our episode sponsor Higher Logic. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. For more information on how AI is transforming the way associations operate, visit associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thank you [00:42:00] everyone.
S2 · E17
Dec 18, 2025 · 33 min
Leading Together: Strengthening the Board-CSO Partnership
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Joanna Pineda speaks with governance experts Glenn Tecker, Mark Engle, DM FASAE, and Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE about the essential partnership between the board and chief staff officers (CSOs). Together, they break down how these roles differ, why their relationship is inherently interdependent, and how expectations shift across different types of associations. The conversation explores the competencies leaders need today, the role of trust and communication, and how associations can navigate rapid change—from the disruptions of COVID-19 to the growing impact of AI. The guests also offer practical strategies for fostering strong board–executive dynamics and close with reflections on what they hope to achieve personally and professionally in 2026. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/i5E0LcD_rhI Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Joanna Pineda: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Joanna Pineda, CEO, and Chief Troublemaker at Matrix Group International, a digital agency to associations. I'm also host of the podcast Associations Thrive. Today we are excited to welcome Glenn Tecker, founder of Tecker International, Mark Engle, principal at Association Management Center, and Jon Hockman, chief practice officer at McKinley Advisors. Our topic today is the imperative of a healthy relationship between the chief volunteer officer and the chief staff officer. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. To make sure that we are all on the same page, I'm gonna ask you all this question. Who are the chief volunteer officers and the chief staff officers? Glenn, maybe you [00:01:00] can define that for us. Glenn Tecker: The chief staff officer is the paid individual who is responsible for overall leadership and direction of the organization. The chief elected officer often goes by a variety of different names. A board chair, sometimes they're called president, sometimes they are called chief mucky muck. It really depends upon the history and the culture of the organization. Similarly, the titles of chief staff executive can change depending upon the history of the organization as well. Sometimes they're called executive director, sometimes chief executive Officer, sometimes president, oftentimes President, and CEO. So depending upon the history of the organization and the model of nomenclature, it's using the terms and the credentials can be different. Joanna Pineda: Okay, so how would you describe the relationship between [00:02:00] the chief staff officer and the chief volunteer officer? What should be the relationship? Glenn Tecker: It's based upon the expectations that member leadership has for the relationship with their chief staff executive. There are subtle but real differences. The expectations that the volunteer leaders of trade associations have for their chief staff executive versus the expectations that the volunteer leaders of professional societies have for their chief staff executives. Again versus, or different than the expectations that the volunteer leaders of cause related or philanthropic organizations have for their CEO. So there really is no one who earns that. You can put all of the answers to the question you've asked into Joanna Pineda: John. Maybe you can explain how are the expectations different between say, a professional society or a [00:03:00] trade association. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: The depiction that I would bring forward here. The pair between the chief staff and chief volunteer is the epicenter of leadership in the organization. Not exclusively, but it's the epicenter. And I think of it as a Venn diagram where those two roles have distinct responsibilities, but there's also places where they overlap. And we oftentimes talk about the metaphor of a bicycle. And the front wheel is where you set direction. And the back wheel is where the chain connects and powers the board chair, the volunteers at that front wheel. With the board setting course for the organization, the CEO, the staff committees, all the other ways that members are organized sit at that back wheel and power things forward. And so those are just very different roles, but they're obviously symbiotic to make it work. Joanna Pineda: Mark, if I'm running say a charity, a nonprofit, maybe a disease related organization versus A CEO, who's running a trade association, are the expectations different of my role and of the relationship. [00:04:00] Mark Engle, DM FASAE: I think the expectations are different, but they're based in competencies, and the competencies in those two areas are very different. The trade association execs are often a public face, so I was CEO of several trade associations. Actually, when we went to the Hill, we were leading the charges. The chief staff executive, I was, my title was president. We had a board chair, and they were the backup because they did not want to be on display for their companies necessarily. As for the industry. Whereas for a professional society, it's almost the reverse element of it where the CEO is the one who's putting in place the right ambassadors to represent the organization. So the competencies are aligned very differently on that basis. And again, with philanthropic organizations or public organizations that are out there raising money or trying to combat disease, for instance, they're trying to open doors, they're trying to support financially. The organization and moving it forward. So the competencies are [00:05:00] very different from what you're looking for a CEO in those VAs. Joanna Pineda: Wow. Our topic today is the imperative of a healthy relationship, so why the word imperative? Glenn Tecker: There's probably nothing more germane to the continuing success of a CEO than the relationship they have with their board of directors. That relationship in large measure is a model of the relationship that the chief staff executive and chief volunteer officer or chief elected officer has. It becomes the model of how the two will work together. What we have found over time is the successful relationships tend to be defined by a subtle but real understanding. That is that on the complex and often controversial issues that boards and [00:06:00] senior staff will face together, it's critical to understand which body of knowledge needs to be the primary driver of the selection of the solution strategy. If the body of knowledge is that's held by members who are sitting on the board, then staff needs to defer to the view of the members on the board. If the body of knowledge that's essential is the body of knowledge held by the staff in association management, then board members need to defer to the opinions and expertise of the staff. Asking the question, which expertise is needed for us to make a confident decision is probably the best start that you can had to sustaining that relationship over time. Mark and John will both agree. I am sure. That the relationship between a board and the CEO is as much [00:07:00] a personality that differs from combination to combination as it is in fact based upon a set of dispensable competencies that both the staff leader and the elected leader need to exhibit in their work together. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: Yeah. If I could just build on Glen's point. Completely agree. As he predicted, and. If the culture of the organization is such that supports that sort of recognition that the body of knowledge sits at the board, that's where we go. If the body of knowledge sits at the staff, that's where we go. The core culture supports that. Great. Often it doesn't, and that's where things break down or get mucky, is navigating the way through that. It could be really a wild ride. Joanna Pineda: Can we go a little bit deeper with this? Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: Of course. Joanna Pineda: I was on Facebook recently in one of the discussion groups where a lot of association execs hang out and somebody said, I'm in hell right now because my board chair is [00:08:00] micromanaging everything. That sounds like a situation where maybe the chief staff exec is thinking, this is my domain. The staff have knowledge here, but the board chair is causing trouble, if you will. How do you set the expectation about whose domain should be respected in what situations? Like the choice of an annual convention venue versus a position that you're gonna take on a government policy, for example. Mark Engle, DM FASAE: We try to move it through a policy base, if you will, so things like routine items, and I know conventions are important and people have a lot of emotion tied up into where that goes. If you can put that into a policy format, it reduces the effect development making a decision on that basis. And that really then becomes more staff driven if the board sets the parameters for it. So providing that clarity is helping define the line between board role and staff role. And that's where it comes down to the competencies. The staff has the competencies to [00:09:00] determine the profitability and the aims of that. Conference, if you will. If it's framed at the board level, then they don't have to get in that decision making loop every time and make what becomes an emotional decision. Joanna Pineda: Is that something that you teach your clients, for example, to ask the question, who's got the knowledge to be able to answer this question or provide guidance? Glen? Glenn Tecker: Yeah. There are also some systems and processes which are essential to sustaining appropriate role definition. One of them is something that we refer to as a strategic board agenda. A key to all of this is understanding that boards will talk about what's on their agenda. So ensuring that the agenda focuses on items at the level of strategy and policy rather than at the level of management on operations becomes essential. Having said that, there are still some board chairs and some board members who carry a [00:10:00] mental model with them from other places where they believe the appropriate role is to get into issues of management, staffing, and operations. In order to deal with that as Mark suggested policy that describes the expected roles of governance is an important addition to the organization's conversation. Establishing board norms as a compact between members of the board where they make statements about how they intend to work with each other as a group. And how they intend to work with staff. Having a process for planning strategically that functions like an ongoing GPS rather than a traditional roadmap, having a methodology for addressing complex issues. That involves the development of information basis, so the conversation can be intelligent and confident. All those are examples of systems and processes you [00:11:00] can put in place that will, in fact, as John has suggested, have a significant impact on the culture of leadership within the organization. Associations are weird. There's only two ways that you can affect culture. You either change people or you change people. And if you're going to change people, then the way to do that is to give them a different experience in terms of how they function than they've had before. If you can alter the work process that's being employed, you can alter their behavior. And if you alter the behavior of enough people, you are altering the culture. These are the kinds of things that we find the most successful CEOs, the chief staff executive is continually paying attention to, so that she or he is managing the functionality of their partner as along with their partner, as well as managing the organization [00:12:00] itself. Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Let's unpack that cultural element a little bit deeper because I think the one critical word in this space is trust. And it takes competence and caring to develop that level of trust, especially between the chief staff executive and the chief volunteer. And if those two have that bridge of trust, and again, based on competence and caring about each other and about the organization, then you can develop a very positive culture. Also, and as Glen said, we do have a lot of turnover in our board. You can blow a culture overnight. You can blow a culture in one conversation, but it takes a long time to build that productive culture. So save it at all costs. Glenn Tecker: There are very few instances where a chief staff executive has ever won a battle over the distribution of power. Developing the competence required to finesse whatever leadership personality you inherit becomes an essential competency of the [00:13:00] CEO. Essentially, they are operating like chameleons, Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: So I think underneath all this is strong communication. I mean, to the core question around role definition and getting on track with that all the way through the culture pieces is that both the chief staff officer and the chief volunteer officer are actively working on communicating. That's not just speaking, that's listening and truly hearing what the other is saying. All three of us run programs for ASAE around this, and at the heart of those, as wonderful as the content is, and kudos to my colleagues on that. Is the chance for them to be in dialogue with one another. A consequence of that hopefully, is a deepening of trust that Mark talked about. So I just think that you can't over, well, you probably could, but you can't over emphasize the importance of communicating with each other each to understand one another. [00:14:00] Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Yeah, I was a CEO for 30 years, various trade professional societies and so on. I always made it a point to go visit. The incoming board chair, where they work, what they do, who they work with, how they work, how they wanna communicate, and those are critical elements in developing that trusting relationship. So they develop into friendships too. Hopefully, not always, but hopefully they do. Glenn Tecker: Different individuals have a different work and communications preferences. So in the relationship, given the fact that the chief staff executive is in fact the professional. Our belief is if there is adjustment to be made, it probably is the function of the chief staff executive to make the necessary adjustments. With good conversation, both can make adjustments so that their natural thinking and working style preferences are compatible and consistent rather than in conflict or inconsistent. And as John has said, communication [00:15:00] that is continuous, that is open, that is honest, will be able to sustain trust over time, assuming that you have a partner who is mentally healthy. And that's not always the case. That's right. I think true. Joanna Pineda: Lemme ask you a question. So I've been on a couple of boards and you've talked about things like having the board charter, having open communications, defining the roles. I'm not sure that I ever saw those, unfortunately on the couple boards I was on. Where do people learn this and how do you, I don't know, how do you impart this when the board does turn over a lot? Like where is this being taught? Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Should be in starting with orientation and development, and so many boards do orientation for just their new board members. No. Every year the board changes 'cause you have new people coming on. The principles probably don't change and maybe some of the strategies don't change, but how we work together changes. When people change, [00:16:00] you're gonna have a new influx of, even if it's just one person in a 12 person board for instance, that's change. And the issues coming before you are changing. So spending time on how we do our work is as important as what is the work to be done. Glenn Tecker: There are a variety of approaches that are used to create a common information base among volunteer leaders about expectations and roles. For example, Pennsylvania now has a law that requires board members of school districts to have a certain amount of training before they're able to take their position on the board. And I share that with the podcast because increasingly we are seeing boards committing to ongoing quote, professional development. For their board members. So it's not just a single event at a single meeting, but it's continuous. As Mark and Joanna both suggested orientation is critical, and if you can [00:17:00] get the board member engaged in a way that allows them to see how an effective board functions before they take that seat, that's critical. Every new board member comes to that position with a set of mental models, expectations they have about how things should work, and oftentimes those expectations come from roles in other organizations that are not sufficiently consistent with how associations operate. It's important for them to understand the difference and to have conversation with successful volunteer leaders, particularly the board chair. Who will use previous board chairs who have been successful as a kind of mentor in the process. But our belief, and I think Mark and John would've shared this, is that those intuitive understandings need to occur before they're asked to take the role, Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: Not during it. Yeah. And just to build on [00:18:00] everything that Mark and Glenn have said, and to the extent that the organization can get a culture within the board of learning and development. So that the board is, whether through self-assessment or other assessment tools, where is there a need for learning or skill development at the board level so that once, hopefully that orientation type foundation is in place, there are other opportunities to learn and grow and be a stronger leadership body because of it. Joanna Pineda: Mark, you said that when you were a chief staff executive, made a point of visiting your board members. What are other things? Chief staff execs and chief volunteer officers, what should they be doing to promote this healthy relationship? Anything new and creative that you've seen recently? Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Not necessarily new, but creative, I think is to visit one of our programs that Glenn and John and I represent. 'cause it does bring them together to focus intently on the organization and intently on their relationship. And it gives 'em a common understanding of [00:19:00] roles, responsibilities, when to lead, when to support. And the whole element of that positive, productive partnership, that's a lot of peace. Glenn Tecker: Yeah. It's just one of those areas where there really is no best practice. That is something that works the best all the time everywhere, but there are effective practices and practices that suck and you can tell the difference. And one of the important initiatives here is that there be a common understanding of how they're going to work together. The creation of that common understanding is probably more important than what the understanding itself is. So it's through that conversation, that lasting trust, the ability to depend upon each other, to make promises and keep those promises. A colleague of mine years ago defined trust in this relationship as the residue of promises kept. Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Hmm. There's a [00:20:00] couple of trust relationships too. One is, does the board trust the board within those dynamics? Then does the board trust the staff, especially the CEO. But the third one I've experienced particularly recently was, does the staff trust the staff? And that's an interesting dynamic and you talk about a board healthy culture and association, healthy culture. And a staff healthy culture. If we don't have those three elements, board to board, board to staff and staff with staff, a culture of trust, there's gonna be a breakdown. There's gonna be a dysfunction in achieving any kind of strategy for the organization. Glenn Tecker: One of the competency areas that we find the most frequent and softest area is the ability of the group to address those kinds of conflicting behaviors when they occur. Most boards will have something like a code of ethics or a code of behavior. It's [00:21:00] attempts to shape behavior by the threat of a penalty. If you misbehave. The best boards we find have something that we refer to as board norms. That is agreements on how they are going to work together and how they will interact with their staff. And they also have, as part of those board norms, judgements they have made about how they will at the moment intervene when a violation of those norms take place. So having in place an understanding about how you will deal with. Emerging conflicts or potential violations of the judgments that have made about how that culture should work. It's an essential tool that still, unfortunately, too many boards don't have. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: Yeah, we talk about the three-legged stool of respect, candor, and trust, and all those relationships that Mark outlined it, board to board, board to staff and staff to staff. There's gotta be presence of respect, candor, and trust. [00:22:00] And it's not that hard to find respect, although it's not always present. But there's so many examples where candor is lacking and we're not having real conversation. We're not having complete conversation often because the trust isn't there. But that's not the only reason. But you can't get to good norms or good communication if you don't have the appropriate presence of respect, candor, and trust within the dynamic. Joanna Pineda: You've talked about what an effective relationship looks like between the chief staff exec and the chief volunteer officer. Give us examples of when it broke down and then how do you fix it? Glenn Tecker: There was an almost universal breakdown that occurred during the pandemic during when COVID forced everyone to go to entirely virtual communications. We observed a number. Things occurring as a result of the inability to spend face-to-face time together. [00:23:00] One thing that occurred was the bright minds that only contributed when they saw necessity to do. They were the anecdote to the bullying voices tended to become more passive in the conversations, so folks who were the loudest to talk the most often tended to carry the day rather than good thinking. The second thing that we emerged is that groups selected management level issues to deal with because they were easier to address in a virtual environment without having the ability for the continuing face-to-face conversation. The third thing that we saw that was absolutely disastrous was the kind of social interaction that occurs among board members and staff in between the sessions of the board, and in a night in between could not happen. So the ability to develop an understanding of their colleagues, which is really the [00:24:00] essential ingredient to trust growing where I can like you, even if I disagree with you, didn't have an opportunity to grow. I'm willing to drink online if I have to, but I'd much prefer to be at a bar with my colleagues. Mark Engle, DM FASAE: And the good news is they're getting back together face-to-face. Again, I think we're finding the average board is three to four times face-to-face again, which it was prior to COVID. Yeah. So that's encouraging news. Glenn Tecker: So it is encouraging. A concern that we have, although we're seeing it decrease over time, is that the cultural. Expectations of some groups have remained what they were when they joined the board during the pandemic. So working with those groups to get them to return to what we all consider to be best practice is sometimes a challenge, particularly when the members of the board have no board experience prior to having [00:25:00] joined the board in COVI. Joanna Pineda: John and Mike, give us an example of how you fix stuff when it breaks down. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: The reality is sometimes you can't fix it, and accepting that is better than trying to hang on forever, but that's not the only outcome. It goes back to communication is sitting down and seeking to understand this is a skill that is unfortunately all too absent in our society right now, and I fear getting worse. Not better. But trying to understand different perspectives, different approaches, and see if you can't find a thread that can begin to build a bridge, a reconnection. Absent that, it's hard to make progress. It's hard to write a toxic or an unhealthy situation. And I know all of us work with folks all the time who it's broken and they're just not sure where to start on the rebuilding it. But it's gotta start with conversation. You gotta sit down and talk. Mark Engle, DM FASAE: Let me build on that. 'cause I did have a personal [00:26:00] experience in this. I was this probably 20 years ago. I was CEO of an association. We had a board chair, two year terms, but you could be reelected. The first two years with this gentleman were awesome. We were like in sync, right? It was really smooth, productive. Something happened his first year of the next term between our relationship and somewhere I failed in his eyes. I could not discern it. Luckily, I had a good relationship with the vice chair who was next in line, and we had a conversation and he was able to have a conversation with the board chair. He came back and said, mark, sometimes relationships just unwind and you can't really explain them. And so I was able to dig in, was it an integrity issue? And he assured me it wasn't. So I'm like, alright, I might not know the answer. At least I'll be okay with the fact that it's not an integrity issue. And then actually the vice chair became the chair sooner than. What his normal term would've been, and we had two terrific years together. Sometimes those [00:27:00] relationships just get fractured. You don't know why, as John said, you try to communicate, but sometimes it's plan B, bring in some reinforcements that are on a volunteer to volunteer basis to help, help bridge that relationship or the gap, if you will. Joanna Pineda: You talked about the pandemic. We're now post pandemic, and now we're increasingly in an AI powered world. Have those things changed? Mark Engle, DM FASAE: The relationship between the CSE and the CVO Arc, I think they have the opportunity to, I don't know that we've experienced it entirely yet, so it's interesting. I was at a board meeting recently and they were making a decision that impacted one board member, and so you could see there was a motion tied to that. So my point was, if AI had a seat at the board table, how would AI vote? They likely removed the emotion from the decision so you could make a cognitive decision, [00:28:00] which is what the CEO was desperate for, and yet. They made the emotional decision. So I think AI can play an interesting role when you consider that voice at the table. It's really interesting Glenn Tecker: and there's a way to get the voice there that is, if the board and the senior staff have a habit of. Complex decisions being informed by background information, usually compiled by staff, but sometimes by staff with volunteers or staff with volunteers with outside contractors. That background paper is the place where the insights that AI can lead you to can be presented to the group in decision making. I have had boards now we're working with where the board members will utilize AI during the conversations to look for additional information or to answer a question about something they wish they knew more about but did not, but. Well, the other thing we are [00:29:00] finding with AI is not so much with AI as it is with the effect that the emergence and evolution of AI is having on the group's view of change. Recently, somebody authored a statement that said change itself has changed. I'm not sure about that. What I am sure about is that association leaders cannot manage change. Not like for-profit hierarchical organizations can, they can manage through change. The reason being, they don't have the same kind of line authority with a group of volunteers that you would have in a for-profit or a public agency, for example. So understanding the necessity of developing competencies in managing through change, which is the essence of agility at the personal level, has become, in our judgment, a new necessary competency for the [00:30:00] successful CEO. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: I wanna underscore, first of all, I think we're very early days on the impact of AI on the relationship, really governance overall, but certainly the relationship between the staff and volunteer leaders. But I just came from a Breakfast of Trade association leaders where an example got brought up of a group where their staff CIO, with the board's blessing and created a persona AI persona. To participate in the strategic planning process, and that person was a seat at the table as the board did their strategic planning work, own experiment. Lots of lessons learned, but I suspect that's not the end of that story by any stretch as that continues to get integrated, so much more to come. Joanna Pineda: Wow. Gentlemen, I could talk to you for hours about this because I'm a newbie at this. I know you're busy, so I'm gonna close out with a question for you and you can answer with something professional or personal. What are you looking forward to [00:31:00] in 2026? Glenn, I'll start with you. Glenn Tecker: I'm looking for surviving an assault on the truth that is occurring at a national level, Mark Engle, DM FASAE: mark. I'm looking forward to catching up on my reading list. To be honest with you, there's so many good publications out there today around especially collective decision making at the boards level and the role that courage has to play and should become a competency. So that'll be my research agenda for 2026. Courage in the Boardroom. Joanna Pineda: Wow. John, close this out. Jon Hockman, CPF, FASAE: I think 2026 is gonna be a, your extreme tumult on almost every front. And so we talked a little bit earlier about a change management. I'm. Looking forward to leaning in on what I would call change readiness. 'cause you can't manage it, but how do you get ready to deal with all the turbulence that is coming? I think that's a skill of the future and lots of juicy work to be done there. [00:32:00] Joanna Pineda: Gentlemen, this has been insightful and wonderful. Thank you for being on the show today. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals. Discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. For the full conversation, visit associations now.com. And for more information about governance, visit asaecenter.org. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And if you have a hot topic or pressing challenge that the association community would benefit from, we'd love to hear from you. Please contact ace's Michael Ross at mross@asaecenter.org to propose a thought leadership sponsorship opportunity on a future [00:33:00] episode.
#16
Nov 20, 2025 · 22 min
Powering Advocacy: Why PACs Matter for Associations
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE, president and CEO of the Ohio Society of Association Professionals, is joined by Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE, Chief Public and Governance Officer at ASAE; Dawn Mancuso, CEO of the Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry; and Mark Falzone, President of Scenic America. Together, they dive into the essential role Political Action Committees play in advancing association advocacy. The discussion breaks down PAC compliance requirements, why PACs matter in today’s legislative environment, and how associations can more effectively engage their members and leaders in political action. The guests highlight recent advocacy wins—including efforts to halt costly tax reforms—and underscore the need for consistent participation to ensure the association community’s voice is heard. The episode closes with a clear message: advocacy is a shared responsibility, and association leaders must stay active to protect and advance their missions. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/k8Ys7y1lB_M Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Jarrod Clabaugh, President and CEO of the Ohio Society of Association Professionals. And this month I'm lucky to be the host of this podcast. Before we begin, I would just like to thank our three panelists for being on the call today. Thank you, Dawn, Mark, and Mary Kate today. We're excited to welcome Dawn Mancuso, the current chair of ASAE PAC, and also the Executive Vice President and CEO of Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry. And the immediate past chair, our friend Mark Falzone, who is the president of Scenic America. And Mary Kate Cunningham, who most of you likely know, ASAE's, chief Public Policy Officer and governance officer. Friends, let's jump right into the questions. We have a lot to cover. Mary Kate, thank you for the great work you do and the rest of the team and the public policy department at ASAE. Would you mind [00:01:00] providing our listeners with a quick overview of what a PAC stands for and also what missions of PACS often are? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. So PACS are Political Action Committees and we're gonna talk about PACS at the federal level that are formed by trade associations, professional society and other membership organizations. And the goal is to support candidates that align with their policy goals and interests. The PACS are funded by voluntary contributions by individuals, so they have to be by eligible members. Again, individuals and not corporations. There's a lot of restrictions around giving and around reporting to the federal government. So federal ballot prohibits associations from using dues or general funds for contributions to candidates. It's really just from your individual members. Also must have a designated treasurer for compliance. They also must register with the Federal Election Committee and follow very strict reporting and disclosure requirements. That includes regular filings and contributions and expenditures. [00:02:00] And for solicitation, they can only solicit from their restricted class, which is members, executives, and certain employees. For trade associations, they have to follow prior approval where they get specific approval from companies to solicit their individual members there. So the Federal Election Committee is what they have to follow the rules for, and we say sometimes in PAC world, FEC jail is real jail. So PACS are a great tool for advocacy. There’s very strict reporting that you have to follow. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Sexy stuff. Mark and Dawn, would either of you like to share any examples of PAC victories or PAC experiences the two of you have been involved in? Dawn Mancuso: I will say that in a prior life I ran a small trade association where we did have a Political Action Committee and had to deal with those regulations where we had to get permission from the CEO in order to solicit or even talk about the PAC in many ways with their employees at different [00:03:00] levels of the organization. Which can be challenging if you're trying to reach the advocacy folks at a particular institution, but it is doable and there are strategies you can employ to make sure that you can speak to as many of the individuals at the member organizations as possible. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: What about you, Mark? Mark Falzone: PACS are a part of the political ecosystem. And so if you're not playing in that field, then you're not taking advantage of the entire range of tools available at your disposal. And I think that SAE has done an amazing job with their PAC under Mary Kate's leadership and Michelle Mason's leadership, and making sure that they have every tool at their disposal when they're using the pack versus lobbying. Direct lobbying versus grassroots lobbying. This is just another tool in the tool shed that every organization should really make sure that they have at the ready for them to use. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: I would throw this next question out to all of our [00:04:00] panelists. When you think about turbulent times, what kinds of challenges come to mind for PAC leaders today? Mark Falzone: I think that this year, ASAE has been the most turbulent time that it could be in my memory. Literally, associations were on the chopping block when it comes to taxation and tax treatment associations were about to get taxis levied against them where all of a sudden nonprofit statuses were in question. For some associations, this would be the equivalent of a death penalty, and for other associations it would certainly mean cuts. I would say that this year, 2025 has been very turbulent in terms of the association world, but Mary Kate with her leadership and Dawn as the ASAE PAC Chair has done an amazing job in navigating ASAE through these turbulent times. And, I would defer to Mary Kate to speak a little more on the amazing work of what ASAE had [00:05:00] to do in order to make sure that the tax bill ended up okay. And associations still are not subject to taxes because of Mary Kate and ASAE's work and Michelle Mason's work and Don Mancuso’s work. Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: Thank you so much, Mark, and thanks to all of our members who helped to make this big victory possible. But about a year ago, we were preparing for tax reform like everyone else in Washington, knowing associations are always a target. Our non-dues revenue specifically, and this was not our first rodeo show with tax deform, but this was a much more serious threat because two major, well-respected Think Tanks called for. Taxing nonprofits across the board at the corporate rate, which is 21%. So all told there were 6.5 billion in additional taxes on nonprofits that were introduced this Congress for the tax reform bill. So through all of the advocacy of ASAE members around the country, we were able to defeat all of those 6.5 billion over the course [00:06:00] of the legislation taxes. Specifically the biggest taxes were the nonprofit parking lot tax. That would be the tax on employee transportation costs that associations give the first time that we would be paying a tax, an excise tax on an expense. So that was also a potential constitutional issue. And then a huge other source of taxation that was introduced in the house was on royalty income. So on that tax revenue, it would be taxing our revenue on royalties that are received that are part of unrelated business income. Those are, in addition to the across the board tax that was floated and never introduced because lawmakers support associations. I think that's the main focus over the last year that we're really proud of. But we know we're not out of the woods, so it's something we're continuing to engage on. And I would say PACs are a great tool, as Mark said in your advocacy strategy to elect candidates who share your association. [00:07:00] Positions on these important issues and on your legislative priorities. I'll also note, I think we really take a nonpartisan strategy for our work, and most PACs are nonpartisan supporting candidates from both sides of the aisle that support their positions. Dawn Mancuso: Thanks Mary Kate. I really applaud the work you've done, your whole team as well as the leadership at ASAE, Michelle as the CEO, because you saw the handwriting on the wall and you took action at a time when we had to get prepared, we had to put the resources in place and ASAE made the commitment to do that and marks. Very sweet to pose me as the leader of the PAC, but during much of this work, he was the chair of the pac. I was the vice chair and learning as voraciously from him as quickly as possible. So it's been a real team effort and I really appreciate playing a role in this. We're right. Politics are very contentious right now. ASAE characterized the tax threat that took place this past [00:08:00] year as the biggest one that we've ever faced since the creation of the tax code back in 1913. So we've got a lot of concern behind this, and that has helped to mobilize people. But when you've got this kind of winners versus losers framework happening in the larger environment, people are divided and they may respond by saying. They pull away from the public arena or altogether, or disengage, or alternatively, they become tribalized. They really only wanna support one team, and these are the times when PACs can make a big difference. There is a critically important tool to help educate legislators from both sides of the aisle about the value of associations to American society. PAC leaders are challenged to break through all the noise. To make sure that our value is understood. I think we will continue to play a very important role in ASAE's advocacy efforts in the future to come. Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: Jarrod, your point [00:09:00] also brought up a another issue for me. When you're thinking about turbulent times for associations and association PACs, I think the candidates that are not taking association PAC dollars is also something interesting. I've noticed, it seems, like these candidates are more likely not taking corporate PAC dollars. Sometimes they're actually saying encouraging, giving through the association PAC instead. But as he talked about with the FEC Regulations Association, PACs are some of the most regulated ways to engage in the political process. There's so much sunlight. So I think that telling that story and that I think is important too. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: It sounds like a lot of this is tied to education and getting. The association leaders educated, getting members educated, and then also going out and making sure you're actually educating members of Congress. And as somebody who participated in the fly in this past year and in other years, many of the approaches changed when we started telling our stories and when our members started telling our stories. How [00:10:00] then do you think we can work with leaders within our own, maybe membership or just within the space to help them engage more and to get them excited about delivering those messages to lawmakers? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: One idea we just had, what I think. We realize that the top percentage of members are always really engaged in advocacy, but there's so much room for growth for people who are newer members to the association. So just putting on more, as you say, Advocacy 101 or Your Association Advocacy 101 sessions, I think is a great way to make it feel approachable so people realize that. I think if they're not, if they don't have a background advocacy, they might be a little more hesitant too. Go to hill days, and when we make it more transparent, I think that people realize that they are the experts really talking to the congressional staffer, they're the ones bringing the wisdom and that it's, it isn't really less scary than it may seem at first glance. Dawn Mancuso: I think the ASAE PAC has a particular challenge in that so many of our members who are politically [00:11:00] inclined or advocacy inclined are focused on the needs of their member organizations or their member professionals. And so they use their time and energies to put forth the messaging that their members need. Oftentimes forget about the ecosystem they work in, right? As we've learned this past year, that ecosystem we've taken for granted, and it's not something that will survive without the support of everybody in the community. And that not only impacts our own organizations as our own associations, but affects our members, and we all need to get behind this. Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: In terms of educating candidates, we know so many states are strongly considering or moving forward with gerrymandering this year. So congressional districts will change and there can be a lot of new faces that we need to educate. So I think the pressure just is continuing for telling the story. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: What factors do you think contributed the most to the successes A SAE had earlier [00:12:00] this year? Mary Kate? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: I think it's waving the flag early. I think getting on everyone's radar really early before the tax cuts and Jobs Act provisions expire, I think was very helpful. But we know, like Dawn said, our members have to focus on their own members first. That's their day job and it's really ASAE's job to care for the advocacy issues for the whole community. So I think because we were able to stand up our Community Impact Coalition early, it really helped people say, I'm gonna support the coalition. I've gotta focus on my own members, but here's this support to help you guys tell the story better. So I think that's one of the main elements. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Mary Kate, I know one time I heard you say it's easier to blow out a candle than it is to put out a forest fire, and I think that's really one of the things that ASAE excelled at in the past year. And as Dawn has said, and as Mark has said, bringing everyone together no matter what our members' interests are, but defending the industry as a whole. [00:13:00] Given that and given these successes, what should we be on the lookout for moving forward? Do you think there are more turbulent times ahead? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: Absolutely. We know just last month, the Ways and Means Oversight Subcommittee held a hearing on the tax exempt status of some nonprofits, and there are, or members of Congress on the committee recommending removing exempt status, asking are they truly earning exempt status? So I think this is not going away. We have to continue to tell that story. We've also done it through polling, especially using. The pollsters of the members of Congress that we really wanna influence so that they can, they feel like they're trusting those numbers, the percentage of voters in their district that would oppose taxes on nonprofits. That was really helpful. But I think we've got a lot of work ahead in just really telling the story on how we drive the economy and train the workforce, and that increased taxes on associations means less community benefit. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: How do you feel we can maintain momentum and make sure [00:14:00] that leaders keep telling this story not just to their communities, but also to their boards and to their peers? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: I think it's people like Mark and Dawn that take time out of their extremely busy days to engage in ASAE advocacy, and we are so lucky. I think we have the best members in town, and so more association professionals putting their name in the hat to engage in advocacy, I think is the most useful because once a member of Congress can hear from a constituent about how their association is improving their community, I think that's the best proactive measure. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: So you guys have all made some great points in the right direction to lead our members and to engage our leadership. I'm gonna direct this question to all of you. Many association execs struggle to inspire leadership level giving. What approaches typically motivate CEOs and board members to contribute? Dawn Mancuso: The ASAE PAC's mission is an easy one for CEOs and association professionals overall to give, given the [00:15:00] magnitude of the challenge we are facing. But I think there are some tools that. PACS use, one of which is a scorecard that you can keep track of board members' contributions and engagement with the PAC as well as other activities of the organization, I believe uses that approach. Right, Mary Kate? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: Yeah, absolutely. We know board members would like to have all their checks, especially in something that's primarily displayed in the board book. So I think that when the leadership starts at the top, especially. Having a host committee has always been really helpful to us as well, because those key leaders wanna see their name among everyone else on the host committee. Those are two elements that really work for us. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Great insights. Can you share an example of where a partnership that your organization has or collaboration that your organization has done, whether that's internal or external, significantly boosted visibility or your fundraising results. Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: So this is the coalition that we stood up in tax reform, and [00:16:00] it's more than 115 organizations, all different types of nonprofits around the country. And I think the great part about this coalition is that congressional staff knew our goal was simple to stop additional taxation on nonprofits. They knew we weren't picking winners and losers. We wanted across the board to keep the tax code treatment of exempt organizations the same. So I think having all those different really diverse groups from associations to disease advocacy organizations, law enforcement organizations, all kinds of nonprofits, I think that really helped us be effective. And then also if we had a lot of silent partners, orations that are, were. Influential in the space that we just shared. Information, intelligence, talking points so that we could try to again, sing from the same song sheet. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Great perspectives. What common misconceptions do you encounter from time to time when it comes to pacs? Dawn Mancuso: I think probably the number one misconception I've encountered is that people [00:17:00] think they can use the organization money as a contribution to the pac, and I think it just means we have to do a better job of educating people what a PAC is and how they work that. Contributions need to be from an individual or contribution from another PAC. So from time to time we've been able to get contributions from another organization's pack, which is really gratifying. It means that we're sharing, we have a common goal in mind. Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: I think to Dawn’s point is that association PACs are somehow dark money, quote unquote, and I think that's absolutely a misconception. All contributions over $200 are reported to the federal election committee and are listed on the website. So there's so much sunlight here. This is a really ethical way to support the legal process and candidates, and I think that's one misconception. Mark Falzone: Yeah, I agree with that, Mary Kate. I think that a lot of people think that, like you said, that there is something wrong with doting pac and oh my goodness, I could never do that. And the truth is, this is [00:18:00] just another tool in the toolbox, like I said earlier, for your association or your group. And it's really important to leverage all the tools at your disposal and that not only from an association level, but from a personal level. If there is a cause out there, you want to support, giving to a causes PAC can really further that organization's mission. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Unfortunately, our time has come to a close. We've flown through the questions we had and we shared a lot of good insights today. Thank you to all of you for being on the panel. I would like to ask before we conclude our conversation, do you guys have any nuggets of knowledge that you would like to provide with our listeners to help them motivate either their members, their board, their leadership, or the communities that they operate in to get involved and to make sure that their voices are being heard? Mary Kate Cunningham, CAE: I think the often quoted phrase in DC is, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And that's absolutely true. So get involved in your own association’s advocacy, get involved in ASAE's advocacy because there are real kind of threats [00:19:00] ahead, frankly. And we really have to be diligent about telling our story for our community. Mark Falzone: Yeah, PACs are just, like I said earlier, just one tool in the toolbox, but it's an important one. And to me, if somebody is a seasoned professional or wants to really be active in advocating for their association's work or something that they just care about, you want to be making sure that you're leveraging everything that you can. So, being active in the PAC, contributing to a PAC, being active in lobbying, direct lobbying, being active in grassroots, lobbying, making sure that you're actually doing everything that you can. A lot of people think, oh, I can't do that, or I just think that that's a little weird. That actually couldn't be further from the truth. What's weird is not doing it because it means you're not advocating for yourself. It means you're not actually participating, and it means you're not contributing to your mission and it means you're not doing your damn job. So make sure you do your damn job, get off your butt and work [00:20:00] tirelessly for your PAC. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: Dawn, any last thoughts my friend? Dawn Mancuso: Our membership organizations are based on the same premise that our democracy is, that everybody needs to be educated, choose to engage, and take the time to get active. And I think as association executives, there's a moral imperative. We have to walk the talk and we need to do what we ask our members to do by serving as a role model. By doing what we can to educate others so that they can play as active a role as they would like. I think we are demonstrating to our members and to society and to our members about what the options are for engagements. We are not association executives just from nine to five. We do it throughout our lives, and as Mark so aptly said, PACs are an important tool in that engagement. Jarrod A. Clabaugh, CAE: I would just throw out there, condensing everything we've talked about today. When you stay silent about the work that you're doing, you are the only one to blame when no one hears your message. [00:21:00] So I would thank all of you. I'm lucky enough to serve on the PAC Committee with Dawn and Mark and many other wonderful people, and to have great public policy advisors like Mary Kate and her team, and the great work that Michelle does on behalf of the association industry. So I want to thank you for your time today. I want to thank you for your engagement. I wanna thank you for, as my good friend Mark said, get off your damn butts and do something, because otherwise you really shouldn't be complaining about what happens. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy. In the United States and throughout the world. Again, we'd like to thank our guests today, Mark, Dawn, and Mary Kate. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on the great work being done in the advocacy space, please visit Associations NOW [00:22:00] online.
S2 · E15
Oct 14, 2025 · 27 min
Beyond the Buzz: How AI Can Empower Every Association
In celebration of National Hispanic Heritage Month, guest host Camille Sanders, CAE, director of chapter operations and programs at ISACA and host of LeadHERship Bytes, sits down with Carlos Cardenas, CAE, AAiP, senior strategic advisor at DelCor and co-founder of Association Latinos, for a forward-thinking discussion on the future of AI in associations. Carlos shares how his personal journey with AI began during retirement planning and evolved into a passion for helping associations—especially smaller ones—use AI strategically to thrive. The conversation explores practical concepts like the “quarterback agent” for task management, the value of experiential learning, and aligning AI tools with real business goals. Together, they highlight how associations can embrace AI innovation while ensuring inclusivity and equity for Latinx members and beyond. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/rw3813NLPe4 This episode is sponsored by the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Camille Sanders: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm your host today, Camille Sanders. In addition to my role as director of chapter operations and programs at ISACA, I also host LeadHERship Bytes, an independent podcast highlighting the career and personal journeys of inspiring women across industries. You can find it on any major podcast platform. Now, before we dive in, we would like to thank this episode sponsor the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau Now. Let's get into the really fun stuff. I'm very excited for today's conversation where we're talking about the future of AI in associations with Carlos [00:01:00] Cardenas, the senior strategic advisor at DelCor, and a co-founder of Association Latinos. Welcome, Carlos. Carlos Cardenas: Hi Camille. How are you? Thanks for having me. Camille Sanders: You are very welcome. We're excited to talk with you today. So I just want to be fully transparent with our audience that I know Carlos personally and I know about. Some of your exciting writings and the things that you've been doing in terms of educating associations around experimentation and adaptation of ai. And I know that journey started for you with something really personal around your retirement planning, and that's a really unusual journey. That's not where most of us start. So can you talk to us a little bit about what sparked that idea for you? Carlos Cardenas: Sure. No, I will say just like everybody else, right? October, 2022, OpenAI dropped chat GPT version 3.0, [00:02:00] and it shook the world. It shocked the world, and so everybody started to experiment and say, how does this relate to me? How can I use this? How can I leverage it? I wrote a LinkedIn article in January talking about the directions that it could go. One of 'em was a travel advisor, one of 'em was a strategic advisor. A couple other things as well. Fast forward a couple years, right? And so I'm, I'm relatively young, I won't say my age, but I like to think about the future. I like to think about financial independence, not necessarily retirement, but financial independence. And so I started to go down the road of what does retirement, or what does financial independence look like for me? And you've got your traditional 401k in the workplace and you've got your employer match. Outside of that, you might do Roth IRAs, you might dabble in crypto, you might have some other investment vehicles, and so I do a lot of the work myself. And so [00:03:00] I look at websites, I look at market trends, but I'm like, how can I leverage some of these tools to help me so I don't have to do a lot of the heavy lifting? I like to experiment. I downloaded open source models of my own. I purchased an NVIDIA graphics card. I've got that installed on my home desktop computer. But I run these models and experiment with them, and I use generative I to help me build agents. So I can have one agent that does it all, and you might get to that later on, but I felt I wanted to build an ecosystem of agents to help me with these various aspects. So what I've been able to do so far in terms of retirement or financial independence is build an agent. I'll say it's probably 70% of the way done, but it goes to the marketplace. It looks at the s and p 500, and it comes back and it gives me that information, and then it builds a dashboard for me. So I can look at my financial portfolio and I can have it send me emails. [00:04:00] And so basically it's my assistant to say, how am I doing? The market took a downturn, or it's doing, it's on fire, right? What does that mean? What does my five year-, what does my nine year-outlook look like? Do I need to make adjustments in my 401k? So that's kind of surface level. We could talk 60 minutes about this, but I'll stop there. Camille Sanders: Yeah. No, I love that and I thank you for that example because I think it's a really practical example to show how people can use AI in our personal lives, right? To help us with future planning. And I, for one, had never thought about that. So thank you. Thank you again for that, and I think it leads nicely into something bigger. That you've talked about in a recent article that you wrote and published, you talked about the fact that AI isn't at this point really about innovation, it's more about survival, especially for smaller [00:05:00] associations, and you even called it this moment, a breaking point for associations, and that's a powerful. Really strong message and I'm curious about what makes you feel that sense of urgency right now? Carlos Cardenas: I think it's clear if you follow investments, if you follow the big, the tech bros, so to speak, right? In terms of what they're doing. Generative AI is not going anywhere. People use it on a personal level and they've been able to multiply their cap capabilities. But when you go to the association level for us, you look at association membership and, and I'll say for ASAE membership, since we're on this podcast, I believe something around 80% of all associations, and I don't know if they're specific to ASAE, but they're small staff associations. Their annual revenues are somewhere between, uh, I'll say a million or [00:06:00] less. And that's a wide range. So people wear multiple hats. And so now you've got, you're bogged down into the tactical things. You don't have opportunities to take that hat off and be more strategic. And so administrative overhead comes front and center and, and I think these agent AIs or these AI systems perfect candidate to be able to offload some of those administrative burdens, so to speak, to free you up for the more strategic aspects of it. And so that's why I feel like it is critical. It's critical now, right? People are stuck in the mud, so to speak, and maybe I see it as a consultant. Their technology posture is not where it needs to be, and so I feel like this is a perfect opportunity for leadership boards to be looking at these technologies to say, how do we leverage it in the workplace? Again, we can use it on a personal [00:07:00] level, but. How do we bring that into the workplace and bring ourselves into the future? How do we experiment? How do we build that culture of learning? Camille Sanders: Yeah. Carlos Cardenas: So again, that surface level answer, but that's how I thought about this. Camille Sanders: That's really good. And in that same piece, you introduced this concept of a quarterback agent, which I think is really timely. It's football season, and I liked the concept because again, it makes AI feel more approachable. Can you break that down a little bit for us and talk about what exactly is a quarterback agent? And why is orchestration so much more important than just having this one catchall tool? Carlos Cardenas: I'll start from the model perspective, and you've got your chat GPT version 5.0. You've got from Anthropic, you've got cloud version 4.0, 4.1. You've got these multiple [00:08:00] flavors that try to do it all. If you look at the open source market, you've got specialized models, more lightweight models, maybe from an energy standpoint. They do not consume as much energy. They do not need as much computation, and so rather than thinking about one person, one agent to do it all, I like to distribute that workload and think about specialty agents, and I can have multiple specialty agents. If I'm managing, I'm at the center of them all and managing them all. I feel like I'm just perpetuating and repeating a current problem. And so therein comes the orchestrator or quarterback agent. The, it's, think of it as a digital twin, a mirror of you that you're trying to train this particular model, and that quarterback agent can work with the other one. So let me give you an example. Now, let's just say you've got a project, project a, we'll call it. You maybe have a [00:09:00] statement of work or project deliverables, and so you could have a specialized project manager agent that can think about all of the deliverables that need to happen. Some of the project outcomes, some of the timelines. You might have a business analyst agent where you feed some of the brick requirements from. Think of your discovery meetings. Think of a communications agent that is specialized in outreach. Drafting emails and writing letters and drafting RFPs and writing executive summaries. And so they each have their own specialty and the quarterback agent essentially activates them all. Doesn't have to be linear, right? It could be like non-sequential, but it can say, Hey, project manager, I need you to tap into Microsoft Project to create X, Y, Z task communications. You take that output as input. Draft a letter to the client or to the internal executive leadership team. So you can see how [00:10:00] the coordination aspect of it frees you up. Obviously there's always a human component to it where you have to have that human oversight, but conceptually, I think as the tools and the technology evolve, so too, do organizations have to evolve to figure out how do I leverage this? And I think this is one aspect in terms of Agentic AI that we're gonna hear more and more about. Camille Sanders: Yeah. So if an association leader had to just start with one of all the agents that you described as possible, which one do you think gives the most impact right away and why? Carlos Cardenas: Yeah. I'll say before you even go to the agents, right? Start with yourself, make sure that you're experimenting and learning. And so I think of a series of concentric circles. With you at the center. And then I think once you master that or get comfortable with it, you can go to that next layer. And that might be the team, eventually you'll get to the organization. But I [00:11:00] think it's important to take a step back and think about what is our organization, what is the mission, and what is the vision? What are our business goals? Instead of chasing a bright and shiny tool, and you just leave the stuff that you just bought and you put it on the shelf. What do I, what problems am I trying to solve? Gotta make sure that you align it to the business goals. Otherwise you're just tinkering and experimenting on a personal level. That's good. On an organizational level, I think that's detrimental to the organization. There's gotta be some experimentation, but make sure it's focused experimentation. Make sure you have some concrete examples or deliverables that you know you want your team. I think if you can do that. And the tasks you find are repetitive in nature, instead of prompting each and every time to do this, I think that brings the use case for an agent to help you. And so again, I think start with that concept. Make use of that first agent. I can't [00:12:00] tell you which one makes the most sense at in the beginning, but I feel if once you understand that and you leverage it, and then you realize those outcomes, proof of concept, then move on to the next one. It is a process. Yeah. You can't just jump to Step Z and say, let me get a quarterback agent without doing the other ones. Camille Sanders: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Now, one thing that. I love about your writings and your guidance on this is that you have really been adamant that associations not get caught up in the hype, and you just alluded to that. Really tying things back to business goals and back to strategy for leaders who might be feeling FOMO, that fear of missing out. On the big push around AI right now, how would they really know where to start without just chasing the shiny new thing that's happening? Carlos Cardenas: Yeah, I would [00:13:00] say start somewhere. You've gotta take that first step. I think. Don't let fear prevent you from taking that first step. I can tell you to use a specific tool, but I don't think we wanna do that. I think find a tool that speaks to you. Start to experiment with it, start to learn from it, and then I think you'll get more comfortable with the tool, and then I feel like eventually you'll realize what the capabilities are. Obviously with some training, you've gotta always be learning, because this tool constantly changes and evolves. Technology is moving at a breakthrough speed. So rather than be overwhelmed with trying to chase each and everything, try to get good at a core three concepts. Try to get good at aligning it to your specific role. Maybe you're a marketer. Maybe you need help with social media posts. Maybe you're a tinkerer, a creator and experimenter, and you need an ideation partner. Try [00:14:00] to focus on some of those things, and then I think you'll realize what the capabilities are and then harness those capabilities. Towards the business outcomes. Sitting on the sidelines at this point is not an option. And if you are a leader, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and say, am I stifling? Not just the innovation, but the advancement of my association, my organization? And most times you won't see it, right? If you are the problem and lean on your team, have conversations, have open and honest and frank conversations. I feel like the more you can bounce ideas from your team and off of your team, the more that you can help shape and think about the direction that your organization needs to be going in. Ultimately, I think we all need to dip our toes into generative AI in one form or another. I know we have different on-ramps, whether you have a policy or not inside the organization, guess what? Your [00:15:00] teams are using the tool. At work, at home, they probably know more than you do. If you're an advanced user, you probably know a little bit more, but I think sitting on the sidelines, it's just not an option. At this point. You do not wanna be left behind and three years later, finally come to the realization, oh, how do we leverage this? You'll be behind at that point. Camille Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. I very much agree with that. And speaking of just. Moving forward and thinking forward. You have developed this very interesting concept called Innovation by parts, which you've also trademarked and. I think it's amazing how that frames AI as something that's both incremental and manageable and for smaller associations, which you've alluded to. And I think honestly, this might be practical for even medium and large associations that have not yet [00:16:00] leaned into adapting the technology. How can they apply the innovations by parts approach in a low risk and practical way? Carlos Cardenas: I'll give you a little bit of background in terms of the genesis of innovation by parts. And so I go back to calculus two. Differential calculus, and so integration by parts was the concept where you take trigonometric functions as an example, and sometimes you're multiplying them and sometimes you're integrating them and it's so complex, right? And you'll probably fill pages and pages with these equations. But there is a tool called. Integration by parts where it lets you break that down. It lets you simplify these things into additional variables to integrate that a little bit more. That's one part of it. The other part is I'm hyper visual. If I could turn my camera, you'll probably, you'll see a whiteboard on this side here. I've got an extensive series of whiteboards, so I'm visual. I feel like if you are trying [00:17:00] to articulate, I mean, name your concept, if it's a project, if it's a mission, if it's a vision, I can talk to you about it. The message may get warped depending on how you receive it, but if we're looking at a picture and we're looking at a diagram, then we could walk through that diagram and talk through it, and I can provide you more clarity. Maybe I'm not gifted at the gift of gab, but I think I've been blessed with being able to articulate visually. So that's the genesis of it. Behind that is you've got this complex idea, which can be daunting to some people. Look at any project, right? Whether it's an AMS implementation, sometimes you're just like, whoa, there are too many pieces to this. But if you can break it down into smaller pieces and analyze and evaluate, then I feel like it's less daunting. It's more approachable. You can plan around those things. You can set milestones. So I guess in simple terms with maybe [00:18:00] the long-winded answer to your question, that is innovation by parts. How can organizations use it? Go to the whiteboard. Don't assume that people understand what you're talking about. You know, whatever that project is, if you can draw it and you can understand it, then I feel like you know what you're talking about. And if you know what you're talking about in your organization, your team would be able to see your vision as well. And don't just draw it once and look at it once, but use it as a visual tool, visual aid. As you progress along that project timeline, Ad Read: Let's take a quick break for a word from our episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Atlanta is a leading convention city providing an exceptional environment for a wide range of events, meetings, and trade shows. The destination strength lies in its highly accessible and walkable convention district, which is [00:19:00] seamlessly integrated with its entertainment district, home to the world's number one airport, Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta International Airport, and a substantial inventory of more than 113,000 hotel rooms in the metro region. The city is well equipped to accommodate small and large scale gatherings. In Atlanta, your success is our top priority. Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau and our close-knit hospitality community, don't just serve as a resource, we become an extension of your team. For more information, visit discover atlanta.com. Camille Sanders: And so now Carlos, I want to shift gears. And look a little bit down the road. If associations get this right five years from now, what do you [00:20:00] think the workplace will look like? And on a personal note, what excites you most about that future? Carlos Cardenas: I had the privilege of being the immediate past chair of the tech council last year. We were talking about what does the IT team of the future look like? So we had a bunch of ideas in terms of what are the skill sets, what are the psychological profiles that an IT leader, but IT team members need? And the missing piece was agents, again, as agentic AI comes into the picture, how can it not be part of the future as these tools become more available and readily accessible? Again, it's natural language processing, and so it's very accessible. You don't have to be super techy. How can that not be part of it? And so again, from the administrative overhead aspect of it, even on the board perspective in terms of, you know, strategic planning, I still hear stories [00:21:00] where boards are expected to look at 20, 30 page documents to prepare for a board meeting. So how can you leverage these tools to be able to evaluate, analyze, and synthesize complexity? Into more simple terms. And so the board members can focus on strategy from a volunteer perspective. Associations, you know, manage various committees. I'll say you're taking meeting minutes and I think those are the simple ones. I think we're past that part of. But in terms of keeping people organized, people are busy, right? If they're volunteering, they've got a full-time job, they've got a family, how can we lean on some of these tools? To help us with the repetitive, to help us with the mundane, to help us prepare for our next meeting, to help us look back and reflect on previous meetings, to help us look for trends and say where are we going? Where did we come from? Are we aligning with the three year strategic plan that we created a couple years ago? Do we need to [00:22:00] pivot? Times are changing, do a landscape assessment. So all of these different tools, and even from an internal perspective, again, if I can go back to the small staff. You're wearing multiple hats. Maybe you don't have the budget to get a technology leader. In comes your agents, and I'm not saying they're commercial off the shelf, but you might be able to train it best practices Microsoft documentation if you're a Microsoft shop. But I feel like it can augment your staff and the capabilities and maybe you don't fall behind on technology. Maybe you can stay ahead to some extent of that technology curve. But it's a competitive advantage, and so if you don't take advantage of it, your competitor will. And what does that mean for the future of your business, your organization? Camille Sanders: Oh, Sage advice. Sage advice there. Thank you Carlos. And I have one more question for you. Since it's National Hispanic Heritage Month, [00:23:00] I wanna close on what I think is a really important point in this conversation, and that's that AI systems are only as good as the data. They're trained on how can associations ensure that Latinx perspectives and experiences are included so that AI outcomes are both equitable and inclusive for everyone? Carlos Cardenas: Great question, Camille. Thank you. As I think about Hispanic Heritage Month and how associations. Can make sure they're inclusive and think about the bias of these large language models are inclusive of their Latino members, Latinx members. Some of the things that they can do, uh, and maybe I'll take a step back and say again, bias is relative. Bias is a reflection of humanity. If you think about public libraries, they're full of bias at one point or another throughout the history of time. But people have written their perspectives. Those [00:24:00] are, think about it. Some of the models are trained on some of that data. Maybe they've been transcribed and they're digitized now, but these large language models, you'll scrape these sites and scrape these articles, and they're trained on that. What associations can do to make sure that Latino voices are heard are accurate. You cannot take the human out of the equation. So I give an example of let's say you want to cater a Hispanic heritage marketing campaign and you wanna make sure you have an authentic voice. You've got some choices to make. There's Spanish, the dialect, the language itself, but there are different dialects. Are you speaking to Mexican, Spanish, Argentinian, Spaniard. So I feel like it is incumbent upon the association. To be that filter to make sure that you are speaking directly to your audience. Maybe you know the differences in terms of dialect of your members, and maybe you do some extra member segmentation.[00:25:00] I am privileged to be the incoming board president for Association Latinos. We're a local nonprofit 501(c)(3) here in Chicago. We're about four and a half years old, and so I think about exactly what I was talking about earlier. Small staff associations. Wearing multiple hats. How do we get rid of the administrative overhead? How do we have these tools augment? And so as I assume the role, I want to incorporate some of these tools, some of these agents, some of the training, some of the upskilling into the work that we do as an organization. I think about where we are as a small nonprofit in the, I'll say ecosystem or economy of associations in general. We're small, we've gotta outcompete, we've gotta out hustle. And so I look at these tools as a competitive advantage. I also look at it as an opportunity to train our volunteer committees, our board, [00:26:00] so that they can learn some of these tools, not just to deliver to our community, but they can take back into their own workplaces. So if I can make 'em a stronger leader, and if I can. Get them to leverage these tools. I know that they'll go back to their organization, to their association, to their leadership roles. They're going to incorporate some of these tools and inherently make their association a stronger association. Camille Sanders: Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you so much Carlos, and this has been such a really insightful conversation, and I do just wanna thank you for sharing your perspective and really giving us a roadmap. On how associations can approach AI with purpose now and in the future. And also a special thank you to our listeners and viewers for tuning into Associations NOW Presents. Each month, we bring you the conversations that are shaping associations today, [00:27:00] highlighting the challenges, the opportunities, and the real impact. That our work has on the economy, the U.S. and even the world. And a special thank you again to our episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. To learn more about planning your next event in Atlanta, please visit discoveratlanta.com. And be sure to subscribe to associations now presents on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And for more stories and insights, visit us anytime at associationsnow.com.
S2 · E14
Sep 25, 2025 · 46 min
The Next Chapter: What's Ahead for Future-Ready Associations
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Sharon Pare, director of partnerships at HighRoad Solutions and co-host of the Rethink Association Podcast, is joined by two dynamic leaders: Christina Lewellen, MBA, FASAE, CAE, CEO of the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools, and Preet Bassi, CAE, CEO of the Center for Public Safety Excellence. Together, they explore how associations can thrive in an era defined by disruption and opportunity. Drawing on new themes highlighted in the upcoming fifth edition of the Professional Practices in Association Management, the conversation dives into the rising importance of governance and trust, building human-centered workplaces, and the skills association leaders need for the future. Lewellen and Bassi also share insights on the role of AI, the next wave of professional development, and how associations can adapt to create resilient, attractive, and future-ready organizations. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/V_j94oIM_IM This episode is sponsored by the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript ASAE_ep14 Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. Before we begin, we would like to thank this episode's sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. I'm Sharon Pare, director of partnerships at High Road Solutions, a HubSpot Agency “associafying” the way associations go to market with, well, their marketing. I'm also the co-host of our monthly podcast, Rethink Association, where we talk about how to reimagine the way you association, which is the perfect lead in to today's discussion. So enough about me. Today, we're excited to welcome Christina Lewellen, CEO of the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools, and Preet Bassi, CEO of the Center for Public Safety Excellence. Welcome to the show, Christina and Preet. Hey, good afternoon. Thank you, Sharon. Thanks so much for having us. Absolutely. Welcome to the show. [00:01:00] Before we get to introductions, I'd like to level set before we get into it. On this podcast today, we'll be talking about the future of associations, evolution, innovation, and leading through change. We're also gonna talk about some of the new themes in the fifth edition of the Professional Practices and Association Management book, but we'll talk about some of the insights that challenge business as usual. And also this podcast is for you if you're leading a small but mighty team like Christina is, or a schmedium association, like Preet likes to call it, a national organization. Or if you're simply just curious, there are some pop tracks in this podcast that you don't wanna miss. Preet and Christina are two leaders bringing deep experience in the field and fresh thinking on where associations are headed next. Well, they certainly need no introduction. I'm excited to give them the floor for a quick hello. So we'll start with you, Christina. Christina Lewellen: Hello everyone. I'm Christina Luwellen and I am the president and CEO of ATLIS. As you mentioned, [00:02:00] ATLIS is technology leaders in independent schools, which basically means that we are CIOs and tech teams, tech directors that serve private K 12 schools primarily in the states. And we are growing really fast. We're a relatively young organization, about 10 years old. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary, but we are growing between 30 and 35% year over year, so we're definitely adding. Lots of new schools to our community every year. Preet Bassi: Hi everyone. I'm Preet Bassi, the CEO for the Center for Public Safety Excellence. Been in that role. It'll be 11 years this September, and our organization has gone through a fix it phase and also a grow it phase, and we're in our grow it phase right now. We work with fire departments all around the world, helping them and the professionals that work in those fire departments establish continuous improvement methods to make sure that they're serving their communities better. Sharon Pare: That's amazing. I'm really excited for today's conversation. And just from what you said, [00:03:00] Christina, you're at a newer association being there for about 10 years, and then Preet, you've been at your organization for 11 years, so I think that's amazing. Today we'll be chatting on topics we're all grappling in the space, so without further ado, let's jump in. So associations built around people, knowledge and exchange, creating a collective knowledge. I know you've both contributed to shaping where associations are headed. Christina, let's start with you. What do you think will be foundational in the next era? Christina Lewellen: As we think about that, I like to boil things down in terms of associations and what they are, and I love this very simplistic way of thinking about it that Peggy Hoffman offers us, which is that the formula's pretty simple. Associations are simply a combination of content. Community, and I feel like that is likely to remain the foundation of associations, but how we build on that foundation is probably going to have to change. There's a couple ways that I envision this happening, one for sure is that I [00:04:00] think that how we redefine and evolve the. Workplace of associations will likely become foundational to how associations succeed. We have great opportunities there, but I also think that a lot of associations have some governance cleanup to do, and that is something that will really amplify this idea of the foundation being content and community. Because if organizations are struggling to either clean up their components or wrestle with some unhealthy governance practices that have gotten into the mix, it's tough to stay really true to the mission and to deliver on that value proposition of content and community. So there's some opportunities there for sure, and I think that we'll continue to unpack that as this conversation goes along. Sharon Pare: Preet, is there anything you'd like to add or something shifting even more dramatically? Preet Bassi: I completely agree with the content and community comment. I would add connection to that, how we bring it together. [00:05:00] But my perspective on associations and CPSE is 28 years old, and about eight years ago, right as we were becoming a true adult at 21, we had a conversation in our board meeting about needing to self disrupt. If we were Blockbuster, we needed to figure out how to be Netflix, not have some other Netflix come in and overtake our market. Historically, associations haven't needed to worry about competition, startups, mergers, acquisitions, bankruptcy, right? Those are common terms that we think about in the private space, but not in associations. But if you look around over the last five, 10 years, there have been associations that have started up because they did not feel. They had a home, they had a voice, they had a space. You've seen associations that unfortunately have dwindled, those that have been friendly, merged, or perhaps hostile takeover bought out. And [00:06:00] in looking at that, some of the things that we've been trying to do at CPSE is. How do we diversify who we are, how we're formatted to make sure that we're very agile and we're adapting as those societal, technological, economic, environmental, political changes come in. We've launched a subsidiary, we've started a new program. We are incubating an association. Those would be words that you typically would hear, once again, in the private sector, but you wouldn't hear for associations. I think that the time has come for associations to not take their membership market for granted and make sure that they're scanning the entire market and how they best conserve it. Sharon Pare: Yeah, that's great. Preet, and being on the industry partner side of things, we've seen that, of course, in the association side and seeing some of these hostile takeovers, if you will, or some of these mergers. But I'm seeing it on the industry partner side too. Almost on the monthly, maybe on the weekly, you hear some new news of [00:07:00] some of these larger conglomerates in our for-profit side of our association business, the industry partners respectively, where they're doing these mergers and acquisitions and they're creating this monolithic corporation, if you will, within our own space. So this brings me into my next question. What do you think will fade or transform in terms of roles and skills and the futurescape of associations? Preet Bassi: I believe that we'll have a few doer roles that consist and event coordination. We have an amazing staff member that makes sure that the sponsor booths are set up and all the way a few of those will stick, but those that have historically been in thinker roles. If they can grow that particular skillset, I see that as a kind of a skillset that is going to shift, whether it's because you're gonna do some automation through AI or even some outsourcing of things that are related to your [00:08:00] mission, but not core to the mission and just really don't need to do it. And it's interesting. InCPSE, we do outsource a lot of core back of house tasks: finance, IT, legal. And thank God for partners in the private space that work with associations specifically on it, on legal. We are also thinking about how we outsource some front of house operations, events, communications. But what we're not considering is our very core programs, which are accreditation and credentialing. And so that is more about associations. So I think we'll want to retain the skill sets and the roles that directly touch the member, but those that support the touching of the member, which sounds very weird, is I think where we'll see. A lot of change, whether it's through automation outsourcing or even potentially sharing of resources. Christina Lewellen: If I could just draw an underline under [00:09:00] what Preet said. I think that you're right. The job functions and skills that are core to the strategy are likely to be the ones that really stay home at the association, but I'll just note that can change. So it could be that if you're launching a new program or something that is really high priority on your strategy. You might need marketing and communications to be on your team, but then once it becomes rote, once it becomes the chug, a chug of work that we always do, just trains leaving the station, then you might reevaluate that. And I would say that it won't be that those skills are no longer needed at associations, but I think it's gonna be. The chief staffing executive's job is to take a pause, take a beat, and go, okay, I understand why eight years ago we needed the marketing team because we were launching this new thing, or we went through a merger. But now that we've got that settled down and things are a little bit more business as usual, do we still need that function in house? I think that's where you'll see some of these fringe [00:10:00] tasks like accounting or HR, but even some member programs and services like what Preet was saying that they're considering, that is likely to possibly shift just depending on where it falls in your strategic plan. Organizations that can be fairly nimble are probably gonna be the ones that really leverage having the right skillset in-house. And then I'll just note that I think the AI right now is. Clickbait. The headlines are just getting our attention, getting us all wound up, and there is some voice coming through the clickbait noise right now that is bringing a certain amount of pragmatism and levelheadedness to the conversation because we have not gotten to the point where generalized intelligence is going to be able to connect the dots on all the content, community, and connection that we create for associations. We still need to do that as humans putting those pieces of the puzzle together. But any jobs that do require those conclusions to be drawn and those dots to be connected are very likely to stay a part of [00:11:00] our kind of landscape for a while. Preet Bassi: Yeah. And connecting with that, we've said we don't mind if AI proprietary tools are automating very rote tasks for us, but we don't want AI being the. Connection point for our members. It's like AI can touch our members stuff and because we're a conformity assessment body, we're accrediting fire department's credentialing fire professionals. So there's a lot of checking of their application, verifying, ensuring that it's correct. Sure, the AI can do that, but I want to make sure that the person, the humans are central to the ongoing engagement because so much of what people are coming to associations for. Isn't just, oh, I have money in my budget that I need to spend on an annual conference. They're looking for community. They're looking for connection. The content they could get anywhere, but those other two pieces do require that there's a human on the other end. [00:12:00] Sharon Pare: Putting AI aside, are there any new skills rising that maybe we're not talking about enough in the space? Christina Lewellen: I think that there's a lot of emotional intelligence that we are going to need because of AI. I'd love that we could just set it aside or set it on a shelf, Sharon, but that's not the reality we're living in. But I think that to your question, I understand the point of what you're getting to, and I think that we're gonna need humans who are super. So many, you know, we need good emotional intelligence. We need to make sure that our workplaces are bringing balance and flexibility to the humans who work at them. And I think that all these things are possible, and it's not just because of ai. We should have been doing that anyway before ai. But I do think that in the emerging generations of leaders. We're hearing about how emotional intelligence can be the antidote to burnout and how it can really create healthy culture. So I think that having some of those soft skills, having resilience to get through hard things is probably, [00:13:00] I don't know if they're skills, but they're at least a characteristic of the future workforce that we're going to need to develop. Preet Bassi: Christina must have been in an amazing conversation we had at our all hands staff coordination meeting. We meet periodically in person and we looked at ASAE's, Drivers of Change around the more human humans to ensure that we were doubling down on that. Another skillset that I would add, and I think this has historically been something that's been reserved at the director C-suite level, but it may now need to promulgate the entire organization, is continuous improvement, creativity and small eye innovation. Am I doing the right thing? Is there a better way of doing it? Not just can I do more of it? And whether that's a staff member that feels empowered to bring that idea forward. Obviously managers, directors, who should be looking at it, and the CEO, who should be creating that culture where that's the expectation [00:14:00] around to just improve it. We actually redid our entire. Staff competencies list and there were core competencies for the entire organization. Some were considered to you. Gotta be aware, proficient and expert customer service was expert throughout emotional intelligence, was expert throughout, even for the most junior member of our team. Sharon Pare: I think that's a perfect lead in to how we think about learning itself. Christina, maybe we'll bring it back to you, but how do you see professional development evolving? Christina Lewellen: Look at the surface level. If we can get generalized content easily from ai, then associations have this imperative to do the deeper dive. I think we're gonna have to do more customized professional development because members can go find information on. You know the chat bot du jour, right? So what we need to do as associations, as we think about learning and PD and [00:15:00] how we're gonna deliver that, is that we really should get in a place where we're offering specialized guidance to help them, the member, stand out in their shifting marketplace. It's not just that associations are going through these changes, our members. To navigate them too. As far as how we do this, it is very likely that we're going to incorporate AI bots and gentech AI into our associations the way that we eventually embedded the internet into our delivery system in the late 1990s and early two thousands. It's very awkward in adolescent right now, but it's maturing quickly, so we're going to have to walk this path, but we probably need to do so at varying rates to hit all of our members where they are and make sure that they're getting the delivery mechanisms that they need at the end of the day. In the education sector, when the internet was widely available, there was this massive fear that the end of school, as we know it was upon us. And as it turns out, lo and behold, we still have [00:16:00] school. Right? So I don't think that AI is going to, in any way, hold. Fully eliminate association generated content or standard setting in particular, super customized, super niche, right? And even like our in-person gatherings, in fact, we may see that there's a greater need to have in-person or virtual communities of humans getting together because of these AI shifts that are taking place. So. I feel like there's a lot of concern about what AI might do to disrupt us, but at the same time, if we lean into it, there's a lot of opportunity for us to get the the surfacey level stuff out of the way so that we can do a deeper dive, and that's what we're very well equipped to do. Preet Bassi: I think for me, the greatest opportunity is if whatever format the professional development it is provides actionable insights, go do this. Here's the tips for replication, here's why it would be a good idea. Provides flexibility for engagement and really understanding people like to consume information in very different ways. [00:17:00] I think about the subsidiary that we're launching as we've looked through delivering content in a handbook, in an in-person workshop through onsite facilitation, reading short case studies, searching through an LLM on your own. But also picking up the phone and talking to an expert. That's the range of the ways that you could engage with this content. And I think then if you are able to provide some flexibility in the way that the engagement is your in-person experiences, no more lecture, leverage those for real good engagement. Use that time together, let them read the stuff ahead of time. And there's always this sense of wanting to lead to the lowest common denominator. We send them the pre-read and we told them to after the pre-webinar video, but they didn't. Too bad. So sad. If the in-person experience is focused on [00:18:00] engagement, they'll keep coming back Sharon Pare: Preet, you mentioned accreditations just a moment ago, so I'd love your take on this, especially considering some insight from Foresight Works. Some skepticism around the credentialed experts. Would you be able to share what that might mean for certification in the future? And also for the listeners, if you could explain Foresight Works just a little bit too, and what their role is in sharing with us their insights. Preet Bassi: Absolutely. So at CPSE, we accredit departments. Credential professionals, and it's not a requirement that they be connected. They're two separate programs. There's significant overlap. We are well aware that rejection of expertise is a societal threat and it's no different for us. There is this unfortunate bifurcation within the fire service of the progressive responsive data informed departments and [00:19:00] individuals are going in one direction and the traditional, don't move my cheese or in a different direction, and it's becoming a culture war. Much pick a topic. You could have a culture war around it. Foresight works. It has quite a few drives of change, and so this is an annual effort through the research foundation, one of ASAE's subsidiaries that tries to identify. Those things that are happening that are going to cause an impact to associations. We already mentioned the more human humans is one of the drivers of change that's out there. There are a few related to rejection of expertise, but also this impact on credentialing programs. And it has to be said like the workplace today is a challenged one. A lot of requirements can become barriers to entry. For individuals. I know that we've actually been supporting a lot of work on how to create [00:20:00] a more. Open and equitable fire service that doesn't require somebody on day zero to pay an application fee and be able to do the physical tasks. Let's look for the attitudes that we want, that they have an aptitude to learn, and through an academy they can get to that point where they're able to do those tasks. But at some point there is a line in the sand that has to be drawn that shows is there an industry standard? How are we performing to set industry standard and is that standard changing? So I think about this even in an environment where credentials, experts, there's public skepticism about it. CPCs credentialing program is growing. We grew 44% in the last five years, and there were a couple of ways that we've done that. One, we've diversified our offerings. We don't just have a single credential. We historically had, it was the chief fire officer. We've added six for [00:21:00] individuals that are more junior in the organization. That's the fire officer, and also five specialty ones with two of them being typically held by people who don't wear a uniform. They work in the fire department, but they aren't a uniform member of the fire department. So that's been really interesting. The other is, how are we making it? Easier to go through the credentialing process. So we've done significant technology changes in the application process. We also wanted to make sure that our credential was pushing for excellence. Our mission is to lead the fire and emergency service excellence, so we wanted to make sure we did that. We do have some industry standards that we've historically relied on to pull technical competencies out of. We realize that. Scope of update was too narrow and not frequent enough. We then conducted an analysis of what are the skill sets that future leaders in this space need, and we added those to [00:22:00] our credentialing model. Mental health and wellness. Health for the firefighters was really important as was data and technology because there weren't other standards out there today that were requiring those. We removed our own barriers to entry. We historically asked the supervisor to attest to the application. Unfortunately, if there was a relationship that wasn't great or. In some cases, if the member who was seeking the credential was in a more traditional setting, but they wanted to be a little bit more progressive, and especially if they were from an underrepresented group, they weren't getting that. We've now removed that requirement. We've also started offering scholarships and once every five years, we take every single one of our programs through our business process plan to make sure that. We don't have any unintended breaks in what we're doing, so the rejection of expertise is there. It is a threat, but some thoughtfulness about how the credentialing programs are built and [00:23:00] how they're delivered can really go a long way to overcoming some of that initial pushback that may be rooted in an access barrier that then becomes a rejection of this credential. Christina Lewellen: If I could just add Sharon. I'll throw a hand grenade kind of into the room or drop a truth bomb, whatever analogy you want is that, yeah, associations are facing this trust issue, both in the realm of certification and credentialing, but in other realms as well. But we also have a branding issue on our hands. It's not just a trust issue, right? It's not just that folks are more skeptical of what we offer. I think that we need to shift our mindset from the sit and get certifications. Because anyone could leverage an LLM and get the answers out of a textbook. It's the same thing we're seeing happening in education. Done credentials and certifications are likely to become very devalued in short order. So I think the important opportunity here is in those scenarios and experience-based [00:24:00] credentials, I think that's where the value will come into play because they demonstrate. That human centric and that human dependent expertise. So if we're facing skepticism around our credentialing programs, I think that associations are gonna have to challenge the status quo of those programs. They're cash cows, right? They've been designed, and who really has the appetite to just chuck it out the window and start again, but equally important to making sure that the content is there and it can't easily be replicated by an LLM. I think that we're gonna have to elevate our messaging and our branding around these programs to help the end user, whether that's from a safety perspective with fire departments, or whether it's someone trying to hire a technology director for an independent school. We need to focus on those aspects that are really unique and uniquely human, and I think that's where some branding and messaging might need to be elevated as well. Sharon Pare: I think that's some great insight and you mentioned Don't Move My Cheese, and it really feels like [00:25:00] a big throwback to decades ago. Ad Read: Let's take a quick break for a word from this episode. Sponsor the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. Atlanta is a leading convention city providing an exceptional environment for a wide range of events, meetings, and trade shows. The destination strength lies in its highly accessible and walkable convention district, which is seamlessly integrated with its entertainment district, home to the world's number one air. Court Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta International Airport, and a substantial inventory of more than 113,000 hotel rooms in the metro region. The city is well equipped to accommodate small and large scale gatherings in Atlanta. Your success is our top priority. Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau and our close-knit hospitality community, don't just serve as a resource. We become an extension of your team. For more information, [00:26:00] visit discover atlanta.com. Sharon Pare: I wanna move into the future a little bit, and so if we imagine someone thriving in the association world in 2035, what does that look like? Preet, I'll start with you. Preet Bassi: Oh, first, acknowledging that everything is changing everywhere, all at once. Sounds like a movie, right? It is. It’s burned from a movie. I think the shift from, and I hate this phrase, being member-driven, I think it's being member-informed, board directed, staff executed, and that being a constant cycle, not a one-off, not just every five years, we're gonna do a strategic plan, which nobody should be doing that. Really looking at it from the back of house standpoint, the association and Christina mentioned it earlier about how technology, the internet joined associations in the late nineties, and it had to be that every company today needs to be a technology company. Your systems and experiences need to be [00:27:00] just so seamless. You have to effectively use your volunteers. I think the industry subject matter experts have to remain core. To what we do and we can't over index on staff 'cause that's why we're here doing my best. Oprah, everybody gets a KPI like if you're not measuring every single program, whether it's KPI, OKRs, pick your system, your metric format, you have to. And I think at the end it's definitely seeing grounded in the mission, adapting to that change that's happening everywhere. Everything all at once. If those ingredients hopefully will set up the association to thrive if the board and senior staff are willing to do so, if they're willing to change, if they're willing to accept and if they're going to be an emu that puts their head in the sand. This too shall pass. And a lot [00:28:00] of that disruption and hostile takeovers that we talked about are just going to occur Christina Lewellen: If we're looking 10 years down the road. I'll just amplify what Preet said, that we have to include healthy governance, whatever that looks like. It's the thing that sets us apart from corporations and government bodies. Associations have this powerful partnership between the board, our industry experts, and. The staff are operational experts, and if we're looking long term, there are some organizations that we all know of that could probably do with a bit of a governance overhaul, and some organizations were ahead of the curve on this and trying to revamp things to be more innovative, to be more responsive to the need. So the member, but if that hasn't happened already, I think that's what's gonna set apart the good from the great is when that one plus one equals three on the governance side, that it's boring, but it is essential and key to who we are and how we operate. It's what makes associations [00:29:00] really different and special. And I think far too many associations just don't. Wanna bite that elephant. They just don't wanna tackle it. But I think that's gonna be an important way in which associations can thrive moving forward. I also think that there's an opportunity for us if we don't exactly know where a lot of technology and content is gonna go. I would imagine that 10 years from now we become the distilling experts. If there's an overabundance of information, then being able to connect the dots and being able to sift the macro factors and how it affects the industry you serve. I would anticipate associations are gonna play a more intricate analysis role when it comes to all this content and. I guess I would just add that the community side of things with associations, we've always helped people find their people. That's not gonna change, but I would imagine in 10 years we may have to help our industry's voice stand out again with. So much information, the evolution of AI, we're [00:30:00] probably gonna have to help our industries navigate their own shifting landscapes and make sure that their voices are coming together to get that critical messaging and or work out in the public sphere. So I would imagine that there's also something, and not just bringing community together for the sake of community, but for amplifying voices in a really noisy room. Sharon Pare: As you're talking about helping the industry ship that landscape, and we're talking about thriving, we also have to talk about value, right? So what will make associations truly desirable to future members? Christina Lewellen: More than we do right now? We have to understand the nuances of our members because there's a really wide variety of jobs to be done by associations. So too often we segment our communities either by the positions that they hold or the certain. Stage of their career that they might be at. But they come to us to do a job. Each member, each individual member comes to our association looking for some kind of job that we [00:31:00] are gonna do for them, and we might need to revisit that jobs to be done methodology in the context of a really unsettled and evolving landscape. The job we're supposed to do for them yesterday is unlikely to be the job they're gonna pay us to do in the future. And whether that's onboard to my new career or help me get a new job or. Help me make connections in my industry. Whatever those jobs were yesterday, they're likely to change tomorrow. So I think that we need to stay tapped into that on the value side for members. And I also think that we may wanna talk more about the emotional connection that members have with our associations. So it's not just that we're gonna be their special library, that they go to pass a certification exam or that we’re their voice on the hill or their. In person conference of choice. I think that increasingly humans are gonna seek other humans, and we have this opportunity to evolve our role in making that connection, maybe making more personalized connections, smaller cohorts and things like that. So [00:32:00] I think there's a couple of ways that we can not upend the apple cart entirely, but maybe tweak the values that we're bringing to the market today to be more responsive and flexible in the future. Preet Bassi: I wanna pick up on one of the comments that Christina made actually to the previous question that it was about helping our industry, and I'd add sometimes when they don't even know that they need to be. So are we a trustee for our members or are we a delegate? The trustee acts in the best interest of the members, but perhaps doesn't do exactly what we want them, they would want us to do. The delegate does and a lot of that is looking at trying to predict what's gonna be in the future. A phrase that I'm sure my team is quite sick of using recently is just in time. So what are the “just in time” solutions, but also what is the “just in time” volunteering? I actually would love to hang out with this organization for the next three months and do a thing, but I'm really not interested in doing it every single day. [00:33:00] So how are we building our programs in that way? I think also there's gonna be this sense of brand connection and is this an organization that you want to belong to? Does it speak to who you are? The governance comment, I only, my only addition to what Christina had is I wish we were in Zoom and I would've put the 100 underline emoji on what she said 'cause it's so true. Radically transparent governance. If the members can't figure out why the organization made a change, whatever said changes, you have a problem. So they don't necessarily need to know how many people voted X versus Y, but every decision needs to be done in this really transparent way. And I also think there's, for associations, like there's perhaps a number of associations that a member interacts with. They might want you periodically to collaborate but not necessarily partner with the other associations. Like it's fine for you to do your [00:34:00] own thing, but. Really looking at how do you collaborate on those big issues, those once every five year big efforts, they're gonna want to see. That was an industry-wide effort and not just a you association effort and from a member, their ability to buy, whether that's driven by the point in their career, beginning of their career, end of their career, or do just what they want. I think we need to be okay selling them margarine, but also butter. So if we're like, we always want the best in class offering, we want this high touch, really glossy educational deliverable. Wonderful. Also, are you delivering similar content in a boring on-demand webinar that they can buy for $29? If you aren't delivering at both of those price points, you are going to make it so that you've automatically isolated some of your members. So those are some of the things that really came to me, but I think that big one is, are you. Able to act as their [00:35:00] trustee. We got your back versus we're just gonna do what you tell us to do so you'll buy more from us. And that's going to require some guts on behalf of the board and the CEO to be willing to make that shift. Sharon Pare: I think that’s some really great coins. And that's one side of the coin. And of course there's the other is who will wanna work for associations. So I'll keep this open for both of you, but what does an attractive association employer look like in the future? Christina Lewellen: This is my favorite topic because I really think that associations have this opportunity to stand out when it comes to designing the workforce and the workplace of the future. And we have what a lot of people are looking for. We have mission, we have this purpose, and a lot of folks are trying to connect. If I'm gonna spend this many hours of my life working at a job. What in the world is it all for? So I think that we have a great message to sell, but I also think that we can shape what a workforce looks like and be an example for our members. [00:36:00] Companies like whoever joins your association, you can be the one setting a great example. That's one of the things that Atlas tries to do. I have my way of doing things as a CEO, it. Pretty well known at this point, so I'll just run the laundry list really quickly. We do not send internal emails. We have zero internal emails. We are entirely based in a project management system. I run a permanent four day work week. We have unlimited PTO. I'm even entertaining some really creative additional offerings to my benefits package that are really out there, and I don't wanna go on public record saying it yet because I gotta get my budget passed. But I basically, my whole goal. My whole lens for all of this is that my members, Atlas's members, deserve an effective, efficient, and inspired workforce. Simply put, it's good ROI for them to have a ridiculously loyal and happy staff. I believe in that. And so I think that your employees certainly deserve a healthy environment, and we might as well go [00:37:00] about removing obstacles to their continued excellence. Let's put them in a position to succeed. Not everybody is going to do it my way. Not everybody's gonna do a four day work week. Not everyone's gonna be decentralized. I understand that. But I do think for the associations who choose to accept this mission, both in terms of attracting and retaining the staff that we get, but also like influencing all of the industries that we serve. Can you imagine the fingerprint? We would leave. The associations decided tomorrow that we were going to create best in class workplaces, and then our members started following suits. Think about the influence we would have. So this is an area where I have a lot of passion and it's not just because it works for Atlas, I'm seeing. So many of our peers take these nuggets. Well, Christina's kind of crazy and she'll try these things. Maybe I could try 'em too and see what that does for our team. And I think that the benefits have been really incredible. So I know I get worked up and really excited about this topic, but I think it's not just for the sake of being recognized as like somebody cool [00:38:00] to work for. I don't care about that. It's not what it's about. I don't care if they wanna work for me. What I want is I want employees. Who are obscenely committed to our mission, and that's what I believe our members deserve. Sharon Pare: Preet, is there anything you wanna layer onto that? Preet Bassi: All the praise that Christina is well known for all of those amazing things. And to say how she has been an inspiration, speak to it. So we've done the basic. We're remote first. We outsource where we need to. We contract where we need to. We're creating new and additional world, but we have our 2024 to 2027 strategic plan, and one of the four tenets of that is to be people focused. Christina Lewellen: Yay. That's really cool. Tell me we are about that and it's, wait, hold on. We're taking over. Sharon, I wanna hear about this. Sharon Pare: No, please do a deep dive. Preet Bassi: We want a people-focused organization, and I can't even begin to quote all of the great statements, but it was something that came through in, in a given year. 700 people between [00:39:00] our volunteers, contractors, and staff do a thing that. Add something to the board. So if they're reviewing a application, they're conducting a site visit, thinking about our volunteers, contractors, the world that they do and the staff. So what would it look like if we thought about being that best in class? We've been doing org culture surveys that are actually not terrible for a while with our contractors and staff, and making some actionable changes based on that. We're currently engaged with a project with a. Volunteer expert to do a complete overhaul of how we manage our volunteers, which we have about 650 of them, and it really is knowing that on any given day, any of them have a choice, whether it's the volunteers, many of our contractors are soon to be retiring. Chief fire officers, so they've got a retirement, they're looking about giving back. They're sure [00:40:00] everybody likes an extra dollar, but they're not motivated by the monetary. They're looking about how they continue to continue to commission, and I actually believe we've extended. Many of our fire professionals, livelihood and contributions by giving them a place within CPSC and those that are and have been progressive, continue to be. So I think that people first concept, we're early in it. We're only a year and a bit into our strategic plan. But there's some seven or eight strategies underneath this focus area, multiple objectives, and really wanting to succeed through our people. We know that it doesn't matter what tech, doesn't matter what systems. There is a human at the center of everything. So if they feel that we are the best place and we bring out the best from them, and so much of it is about culture in an organization, but I think you know that adage of culture, eat strategy for breakfast. I saw a better version of culture and strategy eat breakfast [00:41:00] together. I think that is really true and. I was so happy recently. One of our team members, she'd been out on maternity leave and came back and just sent us this message of how she felt so supported and she had never been in an organization that truly embodied family first and didn't just say it, but then. Are you sure you need to go to that graduation? Are you sure you can't make the time? So it really was important, and this is not an ego trip, but at some point I think the association needs to be attractive to A CEO to want to come to, and especially A CEO that's gonna have some positive results for the organization. So that then falls to the board. We've talked about a lot of our staff and how we're gonna help them, but how does the board enter into this partnership with their CEO that makes it a place that the good CEO actually wants to work? Sharon Pare: That's awesome. Preet, and I know we've gotta wrap up soon, but there's a common theme that I'm starting to [00:42:00] see in our conversation, A sense of belonging, connection, collaboration, humane, I love that word too. People first, but we painted a really forward looking picture here. So where does the journey begin? Christina Lewellen: Look, we're in an era marked with change, so we have to lean into time proven like change management techniques, right? And so whatever model you pick, I think that we're at this era where some of us might be concerned about change, and so some of us might feel like we need to double down on the way that things work. COVID gave us this opportunity to be in a change mindset, and the associations that took advantage of that and continue to take advantage of it are gonna be in the best position to make the transition. So if we think about where this should go or what the first step should be, we are. Very good at setting a vision. Associations are good at that. We are good at saying, where do we wanna go? Let's be proactive. Let's clearly define what we're gonna be able to do to add value to our community, and then let's pursue that vision with the intensity that we always have. So I think you know [00:43:00] where to start with all this is just to be comfortable with discomfort and the fact that we are in a change management cycle and then we can really stand out. I truly believe associations have. This opportunity to stand out more so than private or public companies. We're not driven by the dollar or shareholders. We've got the space to think about long-term investment and commitment to our goals, and now we need to do that. Preet Bassi: I love what Christina said, and we had a board member who really helped our organization at a time when we were moving from our fix it phase to our grow it phase, and he talked about runway, not-for-profits, associations, we've got a runway, we can make a plan and we can see it through. Are we willing to do? That's the fortitude piece. And for an association that's trying to figure out how to change, I think you need to get good at doing the simple things so that there's trust, because all the changes and all the ideas. So if you aren't good at returning emails, phone calls, messages internally, externally. If you [00:44:00] don't consistently deliver on your commitments, there's no trust there for you to make the next set of changes. That someone will be like, I don't know, that sounds a little weird. Are you sure we're going to do that? And I comment often about CPSE having had our fix it phase and now we're in our grow it phase. It's not just, we're not just growing in numbers, we're growing in evolution of who we are. Like who do we wanna be when we grow up? Kind of growth. But what paved the way for us to be able to do that was consistent delivery commitment to what we were saying in the smallest ways. So that people knew we could do the next crazy idea that we came up with and that we were going to walk them along, which from a change management standpoint, just as Christina said, that's so big. But I think the trust and how do you begin to measure the trust? How do you start going after those areas that there is potential, some distrust. It is the currency that any change is gonna need, and if it doesn't exist, [00:45:00] a great CEO, A great system, any number of great ideas just aren't gonna go anywhere. How you do that takes communication takes. Calling the baby ugly when it needs to be called ugly, and making those small, but also big swing changes that do get you where you need to go. Sharon Pare: I think that's a great way to round out this podcast. I appreciate you both being guests on today's show. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Association NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals. Discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US and the world. We would like to give a big thanks again to this episode sponsor, the Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau. For more information, visit discoveratlanta.com. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, [00:46:00] and wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Or go to associations now online at associationsnow.com. Thanks for listening.
S2 · E13
Aug 28, 2025 · 27 min
Scaling with Purpose: Inclusion, Innovation, and Impact
Season 2 kicks off live from the ASAE Annual Meeting & Exposition in Los Angeles! Guest hosts Ben Muscolino, Gretchen Steenstra, and Jake Toohey of The Association Podcast sit down with Bobbie Racette, founder and president of Virtual Gurus. Bobbie shares her inspiring journey as an Indigenous queer woman in tech, from launching Virtual Gurus in 2016 to scaling it into a thriving, values-driven company. She opens up about overcoming challenges, securing funding, leading through COVID-19, and the critical role of company culture. The conversation explores how Virtual Gurus is integrating AI responsibly, Bobbie’s vision for global expansion, and audience questions on building inclusive workplaces and communities. This episode is sponsored by Destination Canada and Visit Denver. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings. Transcript Ben Muscolino: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to the Associations NOW Presents podcast live from the show floor here at ASAE 25. I am Ben Muscolino with Brezio, AMS Geek, and Data Sangria. I'm here with my co-hosts of The Association Podcast. Jake and Gretchen. We are so excited to be bringing our format and our passion for the industry over the Associations NOW Presents podcast. We have an incredible guest today and I'm gonna kick it over to one of my co-hosts and we're gonna get that going. So glad you're here with us today. Gretchen Steenstra: So I am Gretchen Steenstra, the permanent/temporary guest co-host. I think I came for five episodes and I don't know how many, maybe 50 now. My day job, I work at DelCor, a technology consulting company, and one of my passion projects is I'm a founder of AWTC, which supports women in tech and part of tech council and [00:01:00] all the association families. So I'm really happy to be here and nice to meet you today. Jake Toohey: Hey, I'm Jake Toohet. I am the director of the association practice at Adage Technologies. We're a digital strategy, web development and design firm, and, work with all associations. And we are thrilled to have Bobby Racette, Virtual Guru's, former CEO, now president, founder. So thrilled to have you. Can you start by just talking a little bit about what you do and your background and just kick it off from there. Bobbie Racette: Yeah. Hi. Thanks everyone. This is amazing. So founder and CEO of Virtual Gurus. So I started Virtual Gurus in 2016 because nobody would give me a job. I was looking for work for, I don't know, close to a year, and nobody would give me a job at all. So I actually started it just to create a job for myself. And at the time, I had no idea I was gonna scale into this big thing. It was gonna go where it went. I had no idea that it was gonna be AI eventually, and that there'd be thousands of people working in the [00:02:00] platform. But here I am and happy to be here. Ben Muscolino: Hey, Bobbie. We're storytellers in the association space. Your story is so incredible. We wanna talk with you about several things today, but to get things kicked off, talk to us about what you've been up to this morning and the session that you led. How was that for you? Bobbie Racette: I've been traveling a lot talking about my story. I actually just flew in from Japan and I was speaking out at the World Expo, which has been amazing. Such an amazing experience. Just to be saying that I'm speaking and I'm out at the expo. I was there on a trades mission and just really telling the story, but this morning it was really just about telling my journey and about culture and my journey of being an indigenous queer woman in technology and how hard it's been to get to where I am today, and meant to raising millions and millions of dollars to run the company and to build the AI. Now we're scaling globally, and I was actually in Japan meeting with senior leaders like the CEO of Mitsubishi to try to get our AI out [00:03:00] there a little bit more. So it's been a pretty crazy ride these last few weeks. Ben Muscolino: Bobbie we have so many things that we wanna learn about you, but I'm very interested in what was the turning point where you realized that you wanted to start virtual gurus? What was that catalyst? Because you kind of talked a little bit about the need to want to create work for yourself. Was that really the catalyst moment? Talk to us about that. Bobbie Racette: Yeah. I was working in oil and gas in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where a lot of people are working oil and gas. But layoffs came like when the gas prices dropped, and I think 37,000 people were laid off within one day, and I was one of those people. But when everybody went into the city and was trying to find work. By the time I got there, all the jobs were either being taken up, but all of the people that were more qualified or maybe fit their culture more got the jobs over me. And so I was looking for work for so long and nobody would hire me at all. I don't know what it was. I'd like to say maybe it's just 'cause of who I am, [00:04:00] but a queer woman in tech and nobody would hire me. So I actually created a job for myself. I was the virtual assistant. I wasn't actually planning to scale it, I was just doing it to create a job for myself and. I had 19 clients, so I started with $300 in my pocket and I bootstrapped it to 1.8 million in revenue. And then I realized I needed to hire, and then I needed to raise money and there's a lot of work to do. And so I closed my first funding round in 2020. The light bulb went on, why don't I start this platform to create work for people like me? And then all of a sudden, the platform just went wild. Ben Muscolino: So the serendipitous timing. Where everyone that maybe got to the jobs before you did and then you raising money in 2020 and scaling when you did. What an incredible twist of timing for business being in 2020 when everything went virtual. Right? Bobbie Racette: Everything went virtual, and then I closed three funding rounds during [00:05:00] COVID, which nobody was investing at the time because they were so scared to use their dry powder. But I was like, let's go and, and it worked well. We scaled 300% year overgrowth through every year and through COVID through three years. Gretchen Steenstra: So you were describing how difficult that was. Were there assumptions you made and had to adjust throughout these cycles? Like you said in the very beginning, you didn't know how to raise funds and people were turning you down. But as you matured and evolved, what are the assumptions you're facing now that you assume when you're going out for funding or building your company, that you have to adjust and. Bobbie Racette: Yeah, I guess the landscape has changed so much from COVID. Before COVID, it was scary. People weren't really interested in the freelancing platforms and it wasn't as well known. And then COVID hit and then everybody went remote and everybody was laid off their jobs. So people started going to platforms like ours. All the administrative people were getting laid off and then they came to me and so I was picking them up and recycling them back out and cold calling [00:06:00] the companies that were laying people off during COVID. And I'm basically saying. Your company still needs to open and function, so we got E four back office support. The thing for us was just assuming that we were gonna be bigger then, and we were just gonna scale and we leveraged COVID for that and I was quite surprised with where it went. During that time. We built out a people over profit program. So all the startups that were struggling to pay the bills, we gave them free virtual assistants. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. Right after I closed my first finding round. So I'm like, thanks, invest. Or by the way, I'm gonna give free service those away Jake Toohey: There's one of the things that I took away from your session this morning was the culture thing. Yeah. The kind of culture that you built at the organization. And I think, you know, one of the things that I, I remember is you saying that you used to hear the resumes hit the bottom of the trash can. You never wanted to make anybody else feel like that. Can you talk about that involving culture and what's driving that? Bobbie Racette: Yeah. This was back when you used to go to the offices and hand in your resume 20 16, [00:07:00] 20 17. And like I said, nobody would hire me and I would literally go to leave the office and I could hear a piece of paper hitting the trash can and I knew that was my resume and it just made me so angry and sad. And essentially that's almost what powered my thesis on if we provide more work to marginalized communities, then. We can't let people shine if we're gonna keep doing that. 'cause surely if I'm feeling that, then how many others were feeling it. But it did was inspire me and fuel me to keep going and to create this. I guess some will say I created it out of anger, but I really just created it out of spite. I thought “you all told me no so many times that I'm going to take my own control now.” Gretchen Steenstra: Yeah. But I, I don't even know if it was spite you were just so passionate about. I found this, and a lot of the things you do, which I think is really interesting is you formed it into repeatable like almost products. So I'm looking at your culture cleanup toolkit. And so in addition to running a company, raising [00:08:00] money, growing the company, taking care of your employees, you also seem to have packaged some of these thesis statements and ideas into tools. I've never seen that with a founder who's doing all of these things. And creating, you know, actual artifacts to help with people. Bobbie Racette: It's all tell you much when you go to an office or a startup or tech company or a business, any business, and people talk that their culture is good. But then you go in, you're like, whoa, this thing's about to explode. And so I, I see a lot of that and I'm a firm believer of if you're gonna talk the talk, then you gotta walk the walk and you gotta show it, right? So the culture toolkit was more on, based on. We had some toxicity go through our company. And during COVID, when toxicity comes into your company, it's like a snake that just doesn't stop and you have to do a lot of work to fix it to right side it. And so I really built the toolkit based on how do I make sure that I'm creating an [00:09:00] open and honest, happy space for all of the employees? How am I making them safe? How am I allowing people to understand the culture and what is allowed and what's not allowed, and what kind of a culture that we wanna have in the office. And so it really helped with that. Gretchen Steenstra: What made you say, whoa, so a minute ago you just, you said you walk into an office and you feel this, like, what are a couple things that people don't notice that you noticed? Bobbie Racette: Like male leaders, for example. And when you go into, also say it like, tech bros, let's be real. I love tech. I'm in tech, but tech bros. Can be a little bit hard to handle. And if there's women working and those, they're mansplained in weight. I'm not saying it's everybody. 'cause believe me, I have a lot of tech friends that are males because I'm in the tech community and they all treat me like I'm their little sister. They treat me really well, but you can see it and it can really shut down your business. I've seen it shut down some successful startups. Gretchen Steenstra: We joke a lot at AWTC. We're advancing, empowering women, but men are welcome. You know, like it's not [00:10:00] excluding men, it's. Making sure that we're all being respectful of each other. And Jake and Ben are two of the biggest champions we have at AWTC. And I think that's been interesting with us as people ask, can we join you? They're like, of course you can join us. Just don't be a jerk. You know? I mean, it's not hard, right? Yeah. So there's a lot of men in part of our organization that are great. Bobbie Racette: Our new person taking over my role, I won't say too much just 'cause it's going out, but is male and I'm happy for it. We're a woman led indigenous business. 90% of my VPs are women. I have an all female board and I'm proud of it. I'm proud that we have a male taking over as my successor. Very good. Ben Muscolino: Alright, so we're gonna keep going here, but we're gonna take a quick break and just hear from one of our sponsors. Quick note from Destination Canada. From the rugged Rocky Mountains to Sparkling Ocean Shores, Canada offers world-class venues and visionary leaders like Bobby Rossett. It gives you a sense of [00:11:00] belonging, the ability to unlock new ways of thinking, and a place where great business minds come to open their minds for business events that inspire, naturally build partnerships, drive transformation, and leave a meaningful legacy visit. Business events canada.ca. So we had the pleasure of having Magic Johnson join us yesterday and he mentioned DEI being a thing, not being a thing, whatever's going to do with that. However you normalize that for, for yourself and, and any of the listeners businesses. But basically what he said is, let's just start being good again, right? And however you label it or don't label it, let's get back to just doing right by each other. And I think that resonated with the room because. It's on a lot of people's minds and how that's gonna impact funding and culture and all these things. And it's a topic in our industry related to, you know, how are people financially gonna put things together, what's their reliance on, you know, what can I have associated with my business and can't [00:12:00] I, in order to get certain funding or when certain business? And I think it gets best to the core of doing the right thing and working with the right people and building that culture. And so I guess what I'm trying to get at is talking about culture. Like where does all that resonate for you? Bobbie Racette: Well, my mom always told me, treat people the way you wanna be treated, right? Like it is common sense. And I think every company should have that. And I think big things can happen if you treat people the way you wanna be treated. Just 'cause I'm a CEO, it doesn't mean I treat the customer service rep in my company or the sales person any differently than the COO or the CTO, I treat them all the same. Jake Toohey: Can you talk a little bit about adversity and the adversity you've faced? Talk about. How you got to the point of actually getting the funding that you needed to, to grow and scale? Bobbie Racette: Yeah, so I bootstrapped virtual gurus to about 1.8 million in revenue, and it was then I realized that I probably needed to start raising money, but I had no idea what to do. I was like, oh man, this is gonna be crazy. I literally [00:13:00] started the company with $300 in my pocket to go to having to raise out of valuation to raise millions. And so I set out to start pitching and I pitched all over North America. I went through 170 investors saying no, and I knew all it took was just that one. Yes. But I was like, when am I gonna get the yes, yes. Yeah. The first yes, was the hundred and 71st pitch, and it was a cold email, reach out to an indigenous funding company, and five minutes later they called me and then they led that round. And then Telus Ventures led in second round and Telus Ventures coming on and they have MassMutual here in the US on my cap table now, and some pretty big names. Now. Jake Toohey: You talked also about giving people feedback. I mean, as you had to kind of evolve your pitch over 171 different pitches. But I really liked hearing about your methodology with making sure that you're getting people feedback, even if there's some rejected attached to it. Can you talk a little bit about that? Bobbie Racette: Yeah. I like to tell people that it [00:14:00] was probably quite annoying to people, but when somebody says no to me, other than the initial kind of jab to the heart where you're hurt and you're like, what? You don't wanna invest in me? Like why? Once that goes away, it's the, okay, but tell me why. Okay. And here's the funny thing about investors is they all say the exact same thing when they're just saying no. And it's an easy way out of you don't fall in line with our thesis, although I do, and the company did. 'cause I wouldn't be pitching if it didn't or you're not scalable, right? And so I started actually going back to them and saying, look, you can't say I'm not scalable and you can't say this. Tell me the real reason. Tell me the real, and putting the ball back in their court, holding them accountable. It's the fact that. Maybe they just didn't have enough space in their hearts for me because of who I am, like a woman with tattoos and queer, it really scared a lot of people, especially in the VC world. And so I really had to learn what I needed to adjust. What was it that really made me not get [00:15:00] those investments? And really at the end of the day, none of them had an actual reason. But I was able to tweak and build the company still while I was going through that. Gretchen Steenstra: Yeah. And once you have a few, then you have some evidence Bobbie Racette: that other people invested in. You're right. And then once you get the one investor though your first round, then it's easy getting investment after, right? Yeah. 'cause then you're like, Gretchen Steenstra: it's real. So when you were out, like you have just, so in your multifaceted CEO role is you are scaling financially, how are you balancing scaling your staff? Back at the office who was doing the work that you were pitching? How? How did you do that? Bobbie Racette: It is hard because you hire based on how much money you have. We're really lean team 'cause you gotta protect your burn and we're very lean. So at the time during COVID, I only had five employees. At the end of COVID I had 60, almost 60 employees, 59 employees, and then thousands are working in the platforms, but succeed in the actual office. And then after COVID and the technology started going and working, we [00:16:00] did a series of layoffs, and that was probably the hardest thing for me was laying people off. But we're about 30 employees now. Ben Muscolino: My reflection point is that, I guess instead of conforming, you really tried to force feedback out of them and keep your identity. And I want to ask, how is your identity and owning your identity as indigenous LGBTQ plus leader informed the way you actually lead? And, and think, Bobbie Racette: I was really scared to talk about this story of me, my indigeneity and my queerness especially. I was really scared about that. And I was also really afraid about my parents, like ruining my mom's story as an indigenous woman that her parents were residential school survivors, and it's a really touchy subject, so I was really afraid of living that and telling it. But once I did, and once I talked about it more. Uh, virtual gurus scaled. I'm out here talking in Japan, talking in Singapore, all these places in Portugal, [00:17:00] everywhere, and virtual gurus is just scaling and a lot of that is 'cause of the brand, which is me being the brand of the company. So I think through all of it, I've learned that if you just tell your truth, the world will open up for you. Yeah. Gretchen Steenstra: And I know you, you have this announcement of changing from being the CEO and the founder. But this is common with a lot of leaders that they build a brand and then they wanna sustain it, so they hand it off to somebody. But you're the brand. What are some of the things you would advise people that you protect your brand, but you also let the next generation take the brand in a different direction? You know what? Clearly you plan this because you wouldn't have done it, just, you know, spontaneously. Bobbie Racette: Yeah, no, it's been in the plan, in the works. I think the number one thing is respecting and understanding that. It's your story when you're kicking it off. But for me it's really important to that all the other people in the platform, especially all the folks that are transitioning genders, the neurodiverse community in our platform [00:18:00] to the veterans, the single stay at home moms, the retired folks that working on our platform, it's now their story. And I want their stories to be heard more than mine now. So it's changed, but the Bobby Rossett brand is ongoing. 'cause now I'm, I've actually started a coach cast similar to this. But it's called Take the Seat with Bobby because it's about taking the seats that we were never given as women entrepreneurs. And so that starts right away actually. Gretchen Steenstra: What are a few of those seats you're gonna start with? Like are there specific areas? Bobbie Racette: Yeah, it's gonna be pretty predominantly well known woman in Canada to start with. 'cause I'm gonna do it in person like similar to this and then we're gonna travel and do it. Ben Muscolino: We're gonna take a quick break and just hear from one of our sponsors very quickly. If you're talking about the top meeting destinations in the country, you have to include Denver with its incredible Rocky Mountain views and 300 days of sunshine. The brand new 16th Street includes dozens of restaurants, patios, art installations, and free [00:19:00] shuttles, all within walking distance of 52 downtown hotels. It's a lot of hotels. Very convenient. And there's the newly expanded Colorado Convention Center. The 80,000 square foot Bluebird Ballroom is a game changer along with a 20,000 square foot outdoor terrace. Come check out the mile high city where you'll meet uplifted. Jake Toohey: I wanted to ask about how you evolved the company. Uh, can you talk about how the company changed one, the availability of artificial intelligence and it just becoming so wide scale? Bobbie Racette: AI is everywhere, right? AI is not going anywhere. And about eight months ago, we were like, you know what? It's not gonna be long before AI agents, like virtual assistants are gonna overtake actual human agents. And so the best way to deal with that was to jump 10 steps ahead and start building our own agent. So we built an ethical 24/7 AI virtual receptionist that's actually now being built into a full AI agent. So it can do [00:20:00] demos for startups, it can do outbound SDR sales, it can do calendar booking. And so what we're gonna do is use that AI to create more work for the actual human side. So we're combining AI and human experience together. So we launched it in January and it's flying hard, like it's probably a stickier product than our human side. But it's a cross sell opportunity. So some of our biggest clients are MasterCard, alis, and it's a huge cross sell opportunity. Get them signed up to the AI agent and then provide them a human Gretchen Steenstra: right. But you said ethical. So how are you training your agent to be ethical? Because that's one of the things we've heard for underrepresented people is AI can actually hurt them because the large language models are. Flawed. And so you're just doubling down on bad data, which is why I have a love-hate relationship with ai. So I just circled ethical. Bobbie Racette: Ethical AI to me is obviously is that, but one of the main things for me is how are you creating more employment versus taking away employment? And I think every single [00:21:00] company is gonna have to have AI eventually. It's just the way it's going, sadly. And so it's really on how are you building and training your ai and what is your AI able to do? For us, we focus on making sure we're training our employees to use AI the best way that they can so that they're not going offline. You know what? Use it for content. Use it for this if you want, but don't use it for things that are not in your ability. Don't use it for that learn Still, it's ethical AI for us, but our AI is, it speaks 44 different languages and we've gotta fine tuned right now. But we're creating employment with it. Gretchen Steenstra: Right? But I love that you're cross-selling, like I think that's the way they use it, the right way is you're educating people. This is where the AI is an effective tool and this is where the other staff is a good tool, right? So I think that's very important nuance that you're focusing on Bobbie Racette: the it can imagine if you are going into a store or a salon and you're called and it's a twenty four seven AI receptionist answers your phone. And you [00:22:00] really need to talk to a human, press one to talk to human, then it will go to our humans, right? So there's still the work creation side of it, but the difference is we want all the businesses to put this AI on their sites and let the AI learn and go from there. Gretchen Steenstra: And I think people are okay with that. You know, like we're all kind of trained to go through a couple prompts for efficiency, so I think that's fine. Ben Muscolino: Well, and sometimes depending on the person's style and how they want to be supported. Or maybe the situation they're in, like, I'm distracted with something else. I need to talk to a person. Right? Versus I have my speakerphone, I'm multitasking. Let me go through the prompts. I can, you know, multitask and do that. So you're catering to situationally where they are in their journey of their day or their business, or their need or their urgency. Gretchen Steenstra: And I think another really important thing that you underscore is neurodiverse. And so I think that just having all these different facets. Like you were saying, Ben, people communicate very different ways and so some types of people prefer to have a just much [00:23:00] more streamlined in ai does that. You ask it a question that answers you, they don't really need the interaction, the conversation. They just need to get what they want. Yeah. And others need a different interaction. Bobbie Racette: One of the other things that human virtual assistant platforms in North America are not doing is teaching their virtual assistants to be strategic by using the ai. And that's what we're doing. So therefore we're creating more productivity. So some would argue then you're taking away more billing time for you and it's, yeah, but our number one goal isn't the billing time. Our number one is how do we save clients time and money? So our VAs are billing, let's say 30 hours a month. I'd say, let's say they're working on one client for 30 hours. Do you know those hours were full productivity hours based on how much work they were able to do? Jake Toohey: So I think we’ll take questions from the audience, if there's any, but, I did want to kind of end this. Section of the discussion with what's next for virtual gurus. Bobbie Racette: I think we just closed a fun round a couple days ago, so I was working on that. It's much easier this time around. [00:24:00] I think the next thing is Virtual Gurus wants to go global, so I was just in Japan pitching Virtual Gurus on the global stage out at Expo and meeting larger partnerships. Ben Muscolino: I think we've got some questions coming in from the live audience here at A SAE annual in la. Let's check 'em out. Colleen Gallagher: Hey, I'm Colleen Gallagher with OnWrd & UpWrd. I, I'm sorry I'm losing my voice, but I love your story and it's really incredible, like this growth and, and how far you've come. And I know you said this is your first time here at a SAE. What do you think the association community could learn from this kind of growth and like, what could they take in, in terms of the community building? And so many associations I talk with right now are really struggling with engaging the next generation and growing and instead of losing members, so what, what would your advice be to them? Bobbie Racette: That's a great question. I don't know. There's so much to it that I could answer. I think it would be is don't be afraid to learn. Right? Learning from anybody that is in your community or the communities you're building or the people, it's [00:25:00] all about being able to learn what their needs are and then being okay with being uncomfortable with it. Like we have a massive community and every day I'm learning from them. I'm, I get on the lines and learn how they're billing by the minute and how uncomfortable that is. Yeah, I think it's just don't be afraid to learn and take all that knowledge and soak it in and be a knowledge keeper because that's what they need. Ben Muscolino: So I have a final question, selfishly, right, and hopefully everyone can get something out of this, but I wanna ask this because I run multiple tech companies, I guess I one of those tech bros with the ambiguity around formality. Uh, around DEI and I think everyone in this community believes in just being great to each other. Going beyond DEI statements to create workplaces where people can truly feel like they belong. What advice would you leave people with? And let's talk a little bit about that. Bobbie Racette: I think, I know like the US is going through a lot of the DEI stuff right now, and I think you should just let that make you. Shine even more. I think you could [00:26:00] still talk DEI with talk talking DEI, right? Like it is more about showing it instead of just talking about it. So we can all still say, I choose how to have my business show up every day. I choose how to have my employees show up every day. But you could still do it underhandedly without actually saying, we're JEDI, DEI, right? So you just gotta lead by example. If you are doing it, then everybody else is gonna follow. Ben Muscolino: Well, it's been a real treat to sit down with you and steal a little bit of time out of what is a very busy day already for you and a very busy time for you in business. And congrats again on your round. What round was that? Bobbie Racette: We're gonna call it a Series A today because we're gonna work on our series B, which is about 40 million. Okay. Ben Muscolino: Well, I want to thank everyone again for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact [00:27:00] associations have on the economy, the US and the world around us. I'm Ben Muscolino from The Association Podcast. Joined by Jake Tooey, Gretchen Steenstra, and a huge thanks again to Bobby Racette. Again, before we leave you, we want to thank our episode sponsor Destination Canada, and Visit Denver. For more information about our sponsors, check out the links in our show notes. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. For more information on this topic, visit Associations NOW online at associationsnow.com.

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