The Christian Past That Wasn't: Formerly Telling Jefferson Lies

Warren Throckmorton

Season Three which began April 28 is now complete. I renamed the podcast The Christian Past That Wasn't to be consistent with my book from Broadleaf Books, The Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking the Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History. This is so much more than a fact-checking book; it critiques the entire Christian nationalist project and misuse of history for political gain. Consistent with the first two seasons of this podcast, The Christian Past That Wasn't demonstrates that separation of church and state was the intention of the framers of the charter documents. We would be so much better off if we stayed true to separation of church and state in the US.

Podcast summary:

Season one of Telling Jefferson Lies chronicles how history can be hijacked for ideological and political purposes, as well as a much broader story about the surge of Christian nationalism and the misuse of history which often goes along with it. The series begins in season one with an in-depth consideration of the methods of Christian nationalist story teller David Barton. Then I tell the story of how his book on Jefferson was pulled from publication in 2012 by publisher Thomas Nelson, followed by the response of evangelicals to that rare event. From there, I broaden the scope to examine the varieties of Christian nationalism and the negative consequences of this way of thinking about church and state. The last segment examines the reasons why the separation of church and state is good history, good civics, and good religion.

Season two consists of interviews with experts on Christian nationalism and the effects of religious liberty on church and state.

For more information on books about these topics, go to http://www.gettingjeffersonright.com and http://www.christianpast.com.

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20 episodes
Updated Friday

Episodes20

Newest first

Friday · 39 min
Live at Nooks Gallery & Book Shop with Scott Coley, July 30, 2026 - Bonus Episode
Send us Fan Mail On July 30, 2026, philosopher Scott Coley interviewed me at a book event at Nooks Gallery & Book Shop in Lancaster, PA. The crowd was positive and supportive of The Christian Past That Wasn't and separation of church and state as a principle. Scott covered several of the book's myths and allowed me to expand on the reasons why people are attracted to Christian nationalist stories. We covered just a few of the stories and concluded with a reading about a white man's history. If you have read the book and enjoyed it, this will be a great supplement to that experience. Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton Hosted by Shawn Smucker at Nooks Gallery & Books Shop, 112 N. Prince St. Lancaster, PA. Scott Coley's episodes in Telling Jefferson Lies: https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/2286752/episodes/15194310-ministers-of-propaganda-bonus-episode-with-scott-coley https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/2286752/episodes/14874848-consequences-of-christian-nationalism Music by Roman Candle, Jonas Fair, and Netop
July 16 · 29 min
Al Mohler vs. The Constitution
Send us Fan Mail In this final episode of the season, there are three parts which support the concluding chapter of The Christian Past That Wasn't. The first part is former Secretary of Health and Human Services Ben Carson's false telling of Ben Franklin's call to prayer during the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Carson said the delegates stopped and prayed after Franklin called them to prayer. They didn't. This is the kind of folklore which I correct in The Christian Past That Wasn't. The second part of this segment is a brief analysis of Al Mohler's admission that the Constitution doesn't acknowledge any Christian foundation. This significant admission came in a short video this week. Even though Mohler is honest about one aspect of the Constitution, he considers the lack of explicit Christian language to be an error on the part of the founders. Here is where he is wrong and I respond to Al Mohler's opposition to the American Constitution. The third and final part tracks with the Conclusion of The Christian Past That Wasn't. I discuss separation of church and state in light of the golden rule and the moral teachings of Christ. I end the podcast where I started it by examining the issue of posting copies of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms. I come down on the side that posting the Decalogue is an imposition of one faith over others and thus an improper establishment of religion. As such it violates the golden rule. If I don't want someone to impose their faith on me, I shouldn't do that to others. In the words of Texas state legislator John Bryant from the podcast, "That's not fair, and that's not American." Produced, written, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Music by Netop, Jonathan Swaim, and Dustin Blatnik To get The Christian Past That Wasn't go to www.christianpast.com for buying option. The Christian Past That Wasn't Music Playlist Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6jP94UmS5sCwoB4Ex3ini9?si=C2d_agOxTfechFztsPVXgA Amazon: https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/d7a5977b7b4543f399f70463b226f4bfsune?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_qtlquXBX7hURQO7DbA05ImNSy
July 9 · 30 min
Christian Nationalism and Public Education: The Cost of Disinformation
Send us Fan Mail The episode begins with a role play of a teacher presenting a history lesson right out of the Christian nationalist playbook. Mrs. Johnson's students try to help her with questions but she doesn't take the help. Her disinformation campaign continues until slavery comes up and then the lesson abruptly ends. Could this happen? A better question is, what do we do now that it is happening in some schools around the nation? If you have read the book The Christian Past That Wasn't or been following along with the podcast this season, you should be able to recognize the historical errors in Mrs. Johnson's presentation to her class. In this segment, I present another excerpt from the Texas State Board of Education which illustrates how Christian nationalist disinformation permeates opposition to public education. In this scenario a parent brings in David Barton's discredited book, The Jefferson Lies, as an authority and refuses to address a challenge to it. The parent appears not to know the book was pulled from publication due to historical errors. There is a long history of conflict in public schools over religious differences. However, if religion is kept out of public education, this conflict could be avoided. A robust doctrine of separation of church and state is beneficial for public schools and should be enforced. Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Classroom simulation acted out by Debbie Throckmorton and the grandchildren Music by Jonathan Swaim, Jonas Fair, and Dustin Blatnik For more information about Getting Jefferson Right go to https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Jefferson-Right-Fact-Checking-Claims/dp/B0DT9H7MTC For more information about The Christian Past That Wasn't go to www.christianpast.com
July 2 · 37 min
The Texas Board of Education and Ruby Bridges: What Whitewashing Looks Like
Send us Fan Mail This is an opportunity to observe whitewashing as it happened. The Texas State Board of Education has been revising social studies standards for students in K-12. One member wanted to remove a description of why Ruby Bridges was special in civil rights history. As the first Black child to enter an all-white school in the American South, Bridges helped open doors that are still opening. In this segment, I provide audio of the Board meeting which demonstrates the majority efforts to push aside minority concerns about the contribution of Bridges and representation in an accurate history. One of the board members who helped lead the successful effort to keep Bridges in the standards, Staci Childs Davis, joins me to talk about the meeting and her reactions to it. In the second half of this segment, I critique Donald Trump's patriotic education initiative and speak to Jemar Tisby about whitewashing on a national scale as we move through the 250th birthday of the nation. This segment is a highlight of the season. Produced, written, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Music by Jonas Fair and Netop "James Baldwin was right about patriotism" by Jemar Tisby https://jemartisby.substack.com/p/james-baldwin-was-right-about-patriotism
June 24 · 29 min
Did Thomas Jefferson Base the Declaration of Independence on the Bible and Christianity?
Send us Fan Mail The claim that the Declaration of Independence was based on the Bible is common among those who believe America was founded as a Christian nation. Recently, Tim and David Barton are promoting the idea that the exact wording of parts of the Declaration was taken from sermons delivered in the early 1700s by Congregationalist preacher John Wise. They add that Cornell University history professor Clinton Rossiter taught that Wise influenced the American struggle for independence. This is supposed to bolster their argument about the Christian basis for the Declaration of Independence. In this segment, I assert that the exact language of the Declaration is not in Wise's essays, nor does Rossiter say Wise was critical to American independence. A review of the primary sources shows that the Bartons' claims are false. This leads to a discussion of why the Bartons assert such easily disproved falsehoods. Produced, written, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Music by Netop, Jonas Fair, and Dustin Blatnik For more information about the book, The Christian Past That Wasn't, go to www.christianpast.com.
June 16 · 18 min
The American Way is Separation of Religion and State with Freedom of Religious Expression
Send us Fan Mail Randall Balmer joins me for remarks about why he believes America is not a Christian nation and why separation of church and state is the American way. This is the topic of chapter 6 in my new book The Christian Past That Wasn't. In the book, I cover the topics in this segment as well as the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, The Church of the Holy Trinity v. the United States, and the views of James Madison. Christian nationalists have significantly distorted the history in this area to reframe and redefine separation of church and state. I go to the primary sources to show readers what the framers said about this important principle. To purchase or learn more about The Christian Past That Wasn't, go to www.christianpast.com. Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Music provided by Roman Candle, Jonathan Swaim, and Netop. For a playlist of music used on the podcast, see this link: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6jP94UmS5sCwoB4Ex3ini9?si=0C7Woza2QRaKrIsvvJ_l7g
June 3 · 28 min
Examining a White House Video on the Faith of the Founders
Send us Fan Mail During the America 250 celebration, the Trump administration has partnered with Hillsdale College to produce various educational resources to promote a view of America's founding which is slanted toward Christian nationalism. In this segment, I take on Mark David Hall's video on the faith of the founders. You can watch it on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5J4S5LPeWM. This segment thematically corresponds to chapter 5 in my book The Christian Past That Wasn't (christianpast.com). There is material in the podcast not in the book and much more material in the book than in the podcast. In today's segment I have help from Gregg Frazer, Dean of humanities at The Master's University, Greg Forster, professor of theology at Trinity Divinity School and Michael Coulter, professor of political science and humanities at Grove City College. In the video, it is important to point out that Hall speaks about the time of the founding as if African slaves and Indigenous people were not in the United States. I don't mention it either in the podcast episode, but I plan to do so when I get to the relavant chapter in the book. The music today is provided by Netop. You can stream these tracks in full by going to https://artists.landr.com/991043708780. Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton
May 26 · 32 min
Is America a Christian Nation Because States Once Required Religious Tests?
Send us Fan Mail Chapter 4 of The Christian Past That Wasn't takes up the question of this episode. This episode cites the book and expands on it as well. In sum, I take the position that the experience of colonial and state governments are historically interesting but not directly relevant to our secular system of Constitutional government. What the framers did in the Constitutional Convention is what is relevant. In the book, I fact check claims about what the states required for office holders and I examine the ways different states handled church and state relationships. There was the Williams Way (Rhode Island and to some degree the mid-Atlantic states) and the Winthrop Way (Massachusetts and everybody else). This is not to say that America is a secular nation culturally speaking. If anything, the nation became more culturally Christian after the founders passed from the scene. One of the reasons the founding era was reframed as a Christian founding was due to the heavy influence of Christianity in the expanding nation. Produced, written, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Slippery Rock University history professor Aaron Cowan and Dartmouth College religion professor Randall Balmer make appearances in this episode. Music by Jonas Fair, Jeremiah Lawson, and Netop. Netop is the name for my instrumental music project. Learn more about it at https://salemgrovepress.com/netop. Book ordering options at www.christianpast.com.
May 19 · 20 min
America is Not a Covenant Nation - The Christian Past That Wasn't Launch Episode
Send us Fan Mail Today is the official publication date of The Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking the Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History. Although it has been available for a couple of weeks at Amazon and Barnes & Noble, today it goes on sale everywhere. This segment continues to be guided by the contents of the book. Today, I focus on the first myth: America is a covenant homeland for European Protestants. The claims are persistent on this one and it undergirds most of the rest of the myths. In this segment, I discuss clips of VP JD Vance, Eric Metaxas, and Sen. Josh Hawley making various covenant oriented claims. Produced and written by Warren Throckmorton Book website: www.christianpast.com
May 14 · 5 min
Evidence the American System Was Not Founded on Christianity - Bonus Episode
Send us Fan Mail America as we celebrate it today was founded in stages. Independence came via the Declaration of Independence and the Revolutionary War. Our current system of government came later via the Constitutional Convention in 1787. In this short episode, I focus on the system created by the Constitution as amended by the Bill of Rights. For more information see www.Christianpast.com. Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton
May 12 · 38 min
What Draws People to Christian Nationalism? An Interview with Jeremie Beller
Send us Fan Mail In my book The Christian Past That Wasn't (Broadleaf Books), I spend two chapters on the factors that make Christian nationalism attractive. In this segment, I interview Dean of Oklahoma Christian University's College of Bible, Jeremie Beller on the subject of terror management. This theory provides a powerful, research-based account of what makes nationalism attractive to people. Jeremie's theological expertise provides a novel perspective on the application of terror management to Christian nationalism. I go into this topic in depth in chapter one of the new book. Chapter two discusses the role of deception by Christian organizations and how ingroup bias keeps people loyal to the overall group goals despite the deception. To order the book go to www.christianpast.com. Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton
May 5 · 25 min
The Christian Past That Wasn't - An Origin Story
Send us Fan Mail Why did I write The Christian Past That Wasn't? Answering that question requires me to revisit season one of the podcast and reflect on the rise of Christian nationalism in the African nation of Uganda in 2009. More recently, my work in fact-checking started with a pundit named Bryan Fischer who once broadcast on the American Family Association radio network. As I contended with Fischer, I found out that most of his material came from David Barton. Ultimately, my views changed from an inconsistent combination of Baptist distinctives and American civil religion to where I am today -- a strong supporter of separation of church and state. I wrote the new book to shed light on the heritage of religious tolerance and pluralism in the United States. You can now order the book at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Other options can be found at http://www.christianpast.com. Music by Roman Candle and Earl's Taco Shack Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton Journalist Jonathan Larson makes an appearance via the replay of season 1, episode 11.
April 28 · 21 min
This Present Moment - Interview with Todd Allen
Send us Fan Mail Today I interview Todd Allen, Founder of the Common Ground Project and administrator at Messiah University (PA). Todd and I talk about his work in civil rights education and history. We also discuss my forthcoming book, The Christian Past That Wasn't. Todd is an enthusiastic endorser of the book and makes a good case for why it is needed as the administration is manipulating history of the founding era. Written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton For more information about The Christian Past That Wasn't, go to www.christianpast.com. To contact Todd about the Common Ground Project, go to the christianpast.com and use the contact function to send me an email. I will make sure he gets it.
April 21 · 4 min
The Christian Past That Wasn't - Trailer Season Three
Send us Fan Mail On April 28, the first episode of the podcast series The Christian Past That Wasn't is scheduled for posting. This is a continuation of the podcast formerly known as Telling Jefferson Lies. TJL gets a new name in recognition of the publication of my new bookThe Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking the Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History. On May 19, Broadleaf Books will release this book and I plan to post a segment of the series that day as well. This brief segment is a trailer for the 2026 series. I am glad to have Todd Allen, Jeremie Beller, and Jemar Tisby with me on the trailer today. Keep up with new developments at www.christianpast.com and warrenthrockmorton.substack.com.
Aug 7, 2025 · 41 min
The Value of Religious Freedom: An Interview with Roger Finke
Send us Fan Mail Roger Finke is distinguished professor emeritus of sociology and international affairs at Penn State University. Roger is also the founder of the Association of Religion Data Archives, which is an online archive of the best religion data available, a standard research tool for social scientists. He is the author of several books including the subject of today's interview: The Price of Freedom Denied: Religious Persecution and Conflict in the 21st Century (2011) co-authored with Brian Grim. In this book, Grim and Finke found that as religious freedoms are denied in a society, both by government and by social groups within a society, religious persecution increases. Given the quasi-establishments of evangelical Christianity developing throughout the land, it is important to be aware of the potential consequences of these church-state alliances. The Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) - www.thearda.com. The co-directors are Andrew Whitehead and Christopher Bader. Regular listeners will recall my interview with Andrew in episode 5. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. Artwork provided by Sarah Eshelman Produced and hosted by Warren Throckmorton The series will be on hold throughout the remainder of August while I complete The Christian Past That Wasn't, due out next year. You can pre-order it anywhere books are sold. The Amazon link is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0FCCCP71V The next episode will post sometime in September. Thanks for listening!
Aug 2, 2025 · 24 min
Does Christian Nationalism Work? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part Two
Send us Fan Mail Today's segment is the second part of my interview with Paul Matzko, historian and senior program manager at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. Paul is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Our topic today is Paul's answer to the question: has Christian nationalism ever worked? Listen in to find out. As a part of addressing the question, Paul tells the story of Quaker martyr Mary Dyer. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair. Artwork by Sarah Eshelman. Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton
Jul 27, 2025 · 38 min
What is Christian Nationalism? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part One
Send us Fan Mail Paul Matzko is a historian and senior program manager for AI and emerging technology at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. He is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and host of the Unintended Consequences podcast. Today, he joins me to discuss how Christian nationalism differs from citizen engagement with politics. Often Christian nationalists complain that they are simply living out their faith in the public square. However, Paul teases out the differences between policies which benefit the common good and those which are designed to benefit mainly or only Christians affiliated with the regime in power. This is part one of a two-part interview. Next week, I will have the conclusion where Paul talks about the bitter consequences of Christian nationalism and addresses the question: Has Christian nationalism ever worked? Topics today: What is Christian nationalism? Christian nationalism and the ideology of South African apartheid Christian nationalism and Geralf L. K. Smith Billy Sunday and the Klan MAGA as the modern America First movement Christian nationalism is a different faith than orthodox Christianity Christian nationalism and public schools and much more... Music today is provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonus Fair, and Dustin Blatnik. Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton Artwork by Sarah Eshelman
Jul 18, 2025 · 29 min
The Crisis of Christian Nationalism: An Interview with Jemar Tisby
Send us Fan Mail This segment includes a significant amount of a recent interview with historican and author Jemar Tisby. Although I interviewed Jemar in the spring, the content is incredibly timely and relevant now. In this discussion, we cover the Trump administration's war on due process, diversity programs, and foreign aid. A recurring theme is the grift, greed, and cruelty of the Trump administration's Christian nationalism. Jemar challenges listeners to speak the truth and act to preserve our freedoms. From the segment: "To put it in Christian terms, White Christian nationalism is wrong on a lot of levels, but if you want to talk about a very basic level, it's a violation of the third commandment: thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Which of course doesn't refer to to cussing or using bad words. It's fundamentally about not doing things in God's name that God would never condone." In response to the interview and recent events, I ask: Why is an administration which claims the US is a Christian nation known for its cruelty rather than compassion?" SHOW NOTES: Jemar Tisby's Substack: http://jemartisby.substack.com Non-violence training with the King Center, July 19, Noon-3pm (et): https://jemartisby.substack.com/p/train-in-nonviolence-with-the-king The Spirit of Justice: https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/ Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Dustin Blatnik, and Jonus Fair.
Jul 7, 2025 · 49 min
Money, Lies, and God: An Interview with Katherine Stewart
Send us Fan Mail Today I feature an interview with Katherine Stewart, the author of the New York Time bestseller Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy. The segment is timely in that we discuss income disparities accentuated by the passage of the recent Trump budget. The dominance of Christian nationalism in the current administration isn't helping many of the foot soldiers who helped bring Trump to power. Katherine discusses her new book and much more. Here is a sampling of topics: The uneasy coalitions in Christian nationalism and MAGA world The lifeblood of Christian nationalism: bad history Religious liberty means the freedom to do what Christian nationalists want to do Religion is a tool of autocratic leaders The threat of the New Right to American governance Power is what unites the religion of the New Right David Barton (Where's Waldo) is still active The rank and file are ultimately victims of the theology of power CREDITS: Music is provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. Artwork is by Sarah Eshelman.
Jun 29, 2025 · 39 min
The Fears of Christian Nationalism: Interview with Andrew Whitehead
Send us Fan Mail Why are Christian nationalists angry about the New York City Democratic mayoral primary victory of Zohran Mamdani? They surely are. Many are blaming "unchecked" immigration for his win. White Christians nationalist fear they are being replaced by too many non-Christians and too many black and brown people. In light of this event and the overall attacks on immigrants taking place in Trump's America, have I got a segment for you. We also hear from a founding father on why Muslims should not be discriminated against. In contrast to prior episodes, this one features one guest: Sociologist Andrew Whitehead. Andrew is associate professor of sociology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, where he codirects the Association of Religion Data Archives at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture. He is also the author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church (2023) and co-author with Samuel Perry of Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States (2020). The focus of the episode is what Christian nationalists fear, which is almost everything. Andrew does a wonderful job of breaking down what Christian nationalists fear and how fear is related to Christian nationalism. We also discussed why the Christian aspect of Christian nationalism isn't enough for Christian nationalists. It is good and proper to discuss the deficits in Christian nationalist history, but it is also important to understand the psychology behind the Christians who seek comfort in nationalism. This isn't all about psychology; there is some history too. We hear from James Iredell, an early Supreme Court justice who has a good word for us today. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Dustin Blatnik. Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton