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Transcript of Podcast Episode

Tragedy, Trauma and Mess: How a Psychologist Helped the Survivors of Grenfell

Foundations: How and why did Hannah become a psychologist?

Rosie (00:00):

Today, I'm talking to Hannah Abrahams. Hannah is an educational and child psychologist who's worked beyond the therapy room in both the public and private sector, starting out as a primary school teacher before training as an ed psych in 2005. She's been involved in projects that would seriously intimidate most of us, including setting up a school and supporting the community after the tragedy of the Grenfell Tower. Not to mention setting up and building her own private practice. Welcome to the podcast, Hannah, there's so much that I want to ask you about and so much that we could talk about. So let's start at the beginning. What inspired you to leave teaching and become an ed psych?

Hannah (00:38):

Gosh, what a big question, and what an introduction. It actually made me really emotional listening to that. I think I always knew that I wanted to work with special needs children, and in my second year of teaching, it was really made concrete. There was a little boy that I had in my class who had been diagnosed very early on with autism. And we formed a really strong bond and a really good understanding of each other. And I think that absolutely cemented the fact that I knew that I wanted to go and work as an educational psychologist and kind of work in a more systemic way supporting staff and families and working very collaboratively. Yeah, the picture of him and my mind is so clear, but I remember coming into the class one day just going, yep, I absolutely have to follow this. So I think I had an idea from very early on.

Hannah (01:35):

I also did work experience when I was 16 in a school for children who were deaf, and they taught me to sign really quickly. Obviously, I was not fluent. But I think for me it's always been about communication, and interestingly, about communication with people who find it more difficult to communicate in the neuro-typical way. So I think from a really young age, I was really interested in building relationships and building bonds. And I think that ed psychs have an incredible gift of being able to do that in all sorts of different settings. So I hope that answers your first question.

Rosie (02:09):

Yeah, it does. I mean, I was just thinking about how strong that motivation must've been. Like you've literally, I can see, the audience can't, but I can, and see like Hannah gets really animated when she's thinking about that boy. I'm thinking, was that what got you through what must've been really difficult? Because training as a psychologist is hard, especially as a second career.

Hannah (02:29):

Yeah, I think I had a real clear vision, I was very lucky because I had a very clear vision right from the start. And I'd read psychology at university with a kind of view to, I know I want to follow this. But I also think that I wanted to work with children in the sense that at that age I was probably quite naive and thinking, well, you can make a bigger difference with younger people. And I suppose it's maternal instincts and mothering instincts as well that kind of kick in. So I think that very much played a part.

Hannah (03:08):

Training to be a psychologist is incredibly tough. You will know too. It's really, really tough. And I think there is the difference of becoming an ed psych, because when I trained you had to be a teacher, and we had all these teachers who'd come in, who'd felt incredibly confident and competent being in a classroom, and then when you're training to be a psychologist you're questioning everything, and suddenly you feel like your skill base is zero, and you're looking around for validation the whole time. And it was very... What's the word? There was a very uneven feel about walking into their schools when you knew you understood a school, but suddenly you were coming in as the outsider.

Hannah (03:54):

And I think that was the part of the training as a psychologist that was the really, really tough bit, is that suddenly you just felt completely deskilled. But actually we understood how schools worked, and the pressure that teachers were under, and the pressure that families were under, and the different systems in place. So I think that plays a massive part in rebuilding your confidence when you're training.

Hannah (04:20):

I think it's interesting, because I always question, when psychologists only train others, and the meaning behind that, and what are their needs ultimately? Because being in the front line is a very different place to be. So it's political, but I've always noted it and noticed it and questioned it, but maybe that's because I'm not a lecturer.

Rosie (04:45):

That's really interesting. So is that something that would ever appeal to you to do a bit of that?

Hannah (04:50):

Yeah, absolutely. And I've done more and more of it now since I've been in private practice than I did before when I was working in the NHS and the state system. But it's not something that I feel incredibly confident at. I think that's something that I have to skill myself up with regards to working as a psychologist, and I think that's part and parcel of who we are often in our nature.

Rosie (05:19):

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think when you were talking about what it was like to retrain as an ed psych, I was thinking about just over a year ago, maybe 18 months ago, I did a course in online therapy. It made me feel like I knew nothing about therapy.

Hannah (05:35):

When you do.

Rosie (05:36):

Something I'd been doing for a really long time. But as soon as I was in that learning environment again, back in the role of the student, I started questioning everything, started thinking I was completely incompetent, felt totally deskilled, until I got in the saddle and started seeing people online, and I was like, "Oh, here are all my skills and knowledge to help me." Excellent.

Hannah (05:57):

It's funny, isn't it? I mean, I think we ping pong between kind of a safe space to a, "Oh my goodness me. How can I post a be know what I'm doing?" I mean, I had a really interesting experience a few weeks ago when, I've started going into more work settings, you know, working with lawyers or people who are in more corporate settings. And the feeling of imposter syndrome as I walked into these beautiful buildings, kind of thinking, "Do I know what I'm talking about? Have I got a clue?" And then watching people's eyes and knowing that actually, I know what I'm talking about most of the time and I'm still learning so much, but actually they gained, and I gained from them as well. And it's very much about perception, isn't it? And there's another psychologist I know who always talks about, just remember what you can do. And it has to be this constant little narrative in our heads, doesn't it? So yeah. It's about confidence.

Rosie (07:01):

Yeah. And that feels like the model of growth to me. You have to go through that feeling of feeling totally deskilled in order for your skills to come out and help you and to see how it all integrates and turns you into the psychologist that you can be.

Hannah (07:14):

Yeah. And I think that that's part and parcel of being a good practitioner is to be reflective as much as you possibly can, and be able to pull the positives as well as the bits that you know that you need to adapt and change and learn more about. So I think in the world of private practice, the gift that I've been given is that I've met incredible people and I've been given the space to become much more creative than I could in other situations.

How Hannah found a psychological way to help the survivors of Grenfell

Hannah (07:43):

So for example, when I was working at Grenfell, we had to listen to the community. I was doing things like going into cooking sessions and learning how to make amazing tajines. I was sitting in sewing groups. I was making slime with 30 children whilst we were talking about setting up a memorial for the children. And I wouldn't have had the capacity to do that in my old day job to the extent, because I had to be literally in the streets with the community and building trust. And that's a very different part of psychology that I've learned about and that I've embraced, and that has given me a heck of a lot really.

Rosie (08:31):

Yes. I think that this is part of your story that people are going to be really fascinated about. Because I know when the tragedy happened, I'd actually just recently given birth, and although I wasn't living a million miles away actually, I felt like I couldn't do anything, I couldn't help. But I did receive an email saying, "We're looking for psychologists, skilled in trauma therapies." And I remember feeling very bad about the fact that I was just breastfeeding around the clock, it just wasn't going to be possible. But there was also another part of me that, a bit like we were just saying, was like, "How could I possibly help?" Couldn't figure it out. So could you talk a bit about what that process was, how you got involved, and then the things that you were able to do to support that community?

Hannah (09:17):

So probably about eight years ago now, I learned about an incredible charity called Grief Encounter, which basically works with bereaved families and children. I mean, I think probably others would have heard about CBUK and Winston's Wish, and Grief Encounters sits within that realm. But they're a smaller charity. And I went on a six month training with them, and it was incredible. And I worked with a lot of the children that they were working with, and I ran groups, and I went on retreats with the families, and I became very much a part of the charity in terms of the support I was offering as a psychologist.

Hannah (10:08):

And when Grenfell happened, I mean, I live relatively close, but also the first school that I ever taught in is around the corner from Grenfell. So the little boy that I was talking about earlier is, he grew up around there. And there was something very much inside of me that kind of was lit in terms of, okay, I work in trauma. I don't work in trauma every day. But if I have a team around me, we can do something here, we can do something tangible, and we're not going to go in and wave magic wands... I often hear and I often observe in crises in school that we suddenly have 10 counselors around on a Monday morning after there's been a tragedy on Saturday. It's like, no, we're not doing that.

Hannah (11:02):

But I did meet with Grief Encounter and they said to me, "Hannah, can you do it?" And I waivered, because the enormity of this situation is beyond comprehension. But I agreed, and with a lot of trepidation and a lot of fear, we went down there. And we had connections with the other charities. And I also had connections with the council as well. And slowly but surely these meetings starting to happen about, what can we do and how are we going to make a positive mark, and just ultimately be there? And there was a lot of watchful waiting that happened.

Hannah (11:47):

And I built these connections with people who ran, I don't know whether you would have heard of something called Grenfell United. So a lot of the survivors formed together to build this community. And there are other communities that were kind of popping up. And I worked, I also built relationships with the heads and the deputy heads of some of the schools that were literally right in the vicinity. And there was a lot of listening, and there was a lot of watching, and there was a lot of changes made along the way. So you can't go in with a perfect plan. There isn't one.

The importance of waiting and learning

Hannah (12:30):

And there was and still remains incredible mistrust. So I think about six months of my work was about building trust. And that was being on the ground. So working with people who were going into the community centers, going into the children's centers, being with the staff, playing in the sand, all of those things. And slowly but surely all of these different groups came together and we built the trust in these families, and we knew when they wanted to talk to us and when they didn't. And that changed on an hour by hour, day by day, week by week basis.

Hannah (13:15):

But eventually the Metropolitan Police came to us and said, "We want to do something." Because their need was so great as well. If you can imagine the level of trauma, you can almost describe it as ripples of the waves against the shore. It just kept coming. And I think, obviously it's still going, but at that point it was so tangible. The liaison officers were working directly with the families who were not living where they had been, obviously, or where they wanted to be. And ultimately what we did is, the families started to say, "We need a space to memorialize what's been going on. And we need a safe space." So we had a couple of very private areas where we used to meet...