The Art of Association

AEI Podcasts

The Art of Association is a monthly podcast on big themes spanning philanthropy, civil society, and democracy in America – and the interplay between and among these areas. Following Tocqueville, the podcast presumes that the health of democracy depends far more than we realize on our ability to associate with each other in constructive ways. Doing this helps us solve problems we face together and, at the same time, become citizens more capable of self-government.

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6 episodes
Updated July 22

Episodes6

Newest first

July 22 · 47 min
Yordanos Eyoel of Keseb on Democracy Entrepreneurship
Yordanos Eyoel is the Founder and CEO of Keseb, a nonprofit helping to build a transnational civil society ecosystem that advances inclusive and resilient democracies. She joins host Daniel Stid on The Art of Association podcast to talk about democracy entrepreneurship, the power of taking a transnational approach to democracy field-building, and the need to defend civil society while also reimagining it. Their conversation begins with Yordanos sharing how her experience growing up in Ethiopia amid civil war and ethnic strife, and then finding refuge with her family in the United States, shaped her commitment to renewing democracy in this country and around the world. Yordanos and Daniel also explore her experience as a venture philanthropist supporting democracy entrepreneurs at New Profit, what led her to become one herself and launch Keseb, the strategy and theory of change guiding the organization’s work, and what she and her colleagues have learned along the way about what it takes to strengthen democracy and civil society across borders. Chapters (1:17): Yordanos’s early life and how her migration story shaped her commitment to democracy (4:17): New Profit’s venture philanthropy approach and support for democracy entrepreneurship (9:58): What led Yordanos to launch Keseb and its global network of democracy entrepreneurs (15:54): Keseb’s transnational strategy and theory of change (23:30): Does scarce funding spur more creativity among democracy entrepreneurs? (27:32): Why do illiberal populists and nationalists seem better able to learn from and reinforce one another's efforts than democracy advocates advancing universal values? (32:24): What Keseb has been learning from its work to date (40:23): How Keseb navigates the tension of defending civil society while also seeking to reimagine it Resources Yordanos’s first TED Talk, “Why Voting isn't Enough” and her other TED Talks New Profit and New Profit’s Civic Lab Keseb: Democracy Innovation Lab, Democracy Fellowship, and research and field intelligence Sam Alemayehu, “The Seven-Year Century,” Medium (2025) Yordanos’s writings “Public Trust Reboot: Unleashing the Millennial Civic Spirit,” Stanford Social Innovation Review (2018) “Weaving Democracy Entrepreneurship Across Borders,” Stanford Social Innovation Review (2024) “Civil Society’s Dual Mission: Surviving and Architecting,” Keseb: The Outlook (2025)
June 24 · 44 min
Hahrie Han of Johns Hopkins University on What Moves People to Act Together
Hahrie Han is the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Professor of Political Science at Johns Hopkins University, where she served as the Inaugural Director of the SNF Agora Institute and is the Faculty Director of the P3 Research Lab. She joins The Art of Association podcast to talk with host Daniel Stid about her research on belonging, civic action, and transformational community organizing. Hahrie shares how she became interested in understanding why people engage in civic life and what she has learned in her research. She also reflects on the story behind her latest book, Undivided: The Quest for Racial Solidarity in an American Church. Through years of embedded research among participants in an evangelical megachurch’s racial justice initiative, Hahrie gained deeper insight into the principles of transformational civic life — both for communities and for the individuals invested in the work. Hahrie and Daniel also consider how artificial intelligence might advance research on civic initiatives. They conclude by discussing some interlocutors upon whom Hahrie draws to challenge her assumptions. Chapters (1:48): Hahrie’s experience receiving the MacArthur Fellowship (4:37): What first drew Hahrie to study why and how people engage in civic life (10:32): Key takeaways from Hahrie’s early research, including “belonging comes before belief” and its relationship to transactional and transformational organizing (16:16): The Agora Institute’s Mapping the Modern Agora project and what it has found (20:46): The story of Crossroads Church and its Undivided racial justice initiative (25:25): Three core ideas supporting Crossroads Church’s Undivided initiative — and effective civic engagement more broadly (33:07): Hahrie’s mixed methods research and what she learned through being embedded in the lives of Crossroads Church members (36:45): The effect of artificial intelligence on civic life, and how AI could help researchers improve civil society initiatives (41:12): Some of Hahrie’s favorite thinkers with whom she disagrees but reads to sharpen her thinking Additional Resources Hahrie Han’s MacArthur Fellowship biography Mapping the Modern Agora project Undivided: The Quest for Racial Solidarity in an American Church Hahrie’s other books, articles, and talks, including her 2025 Tanner Lectures at Harvard University. Crossroads Church “AI and Democratic Publics: Bringing Politics Back into Debates about AI and Democracy,” Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University (with Henry Farrell) Larry M. Bartels (Vanderbilt University) Hélène Landemore (Yale University)
May 27 · 1 hr 2 min
Liz Joyner of The Village Square and Ash Hanson of Department of Public Transformation on “An Invitation to a New Civic Future”
Episode Summary Liz Joyner is the Founder and President of The Village Square and Ash Hanson is the Creative Executive Officer for the Department of Public Transformation. They join Daniel Stid to talk about “An Invitation to a New Civic Future,” a public letter that the three of them co-signed with nine other colleagues earlier this year. The invitation focuses on shifting from top-down, technocratic interventions to bottom-up civic renewal that is more participatory, proximate, relational, generational and alive. Liz and Ash describe their work and the importance of irresistible, creative, place-based activities to connect with neighbors and cultivate a more enduring sense of membership and engagement in one’s community. Liz and Ash also explain the need for and promise of practicing the letter’s principles and give examples of how they have applied them in their own organizations’ work. Chapters (01:45): Background on The Village Square and Department of Public Transformation. (06:27): The uniqueness of communities across the country–including rural America. (11:45): The process that led to “An Invitation to a New Civic Future” (22:25): A diagnosis of our current problems (31:01): Five design principles for a new civic future: (31:47): Participatory (34:30): Proximate (38:26): Relational (42:56): Generational (45:44): Alive (52:22): Why artists and creatives have an essential role to play in civic engagement (58:32): How curating organic communities is key for sustaining long-term change Additional Resources An Invitation to a New Civic Future letter The Village Square (Liz Joyner) The Department of Public Transformation (Ash Hanson) Warm Cookies of the Revolution Warm Cookies’ Tax Day Carnival The Upswing: How America Came Together a Century Ago and How We Can Do It Again (Robert D. Putnam with Shaylyn Romney Garrett)
April 22 · 28 min
Heather Gerken of the Ford Foundation on Supporting Democracy and the Rule of Law
Heather Gerken is the new President of the Ford Foundation. She joins The Art of Association podcast to discuss her leadership journey and her vision for how the Ford Foundation and other philanthropic organizations can promote democracy and the rule of law. Addressing critiques of large philanthropic organizations for being overly political, Heather emphasizes that philanthropies must be allowed to be independent in their giving decisions and guided by their mission-driven “North Star,” while also remaining open and responsive to criticism. Drawing on her years of experience in election law, Heather stresses that philanthropy must remain nonpartisan, adhering to not only the letter but also the spirit of the law’s ban on electioneering. She and Daniel close by discussing the importance of ideological and viewpoint diversity—and how engaging with people who see things differently strengthens one’s own judgment and helps one become a more effective leader in civil society. Chapters (01:46): Heather’s work as a legal scholar on federalism, democracy, and elections (05:14): Leading Yale Law School at a charged moment in time (07:51): What drew Heather to her role as President of the Ford Foundation (09:23): Drawing on early guiding principles and the historical legacy of the Ford Foundation (14:00): Responding to critiques of the Ford Foundation—and philanthropy more broadly (19:51): Supporting liberal democracy, elections, and the rule of law on a nonpartisan basis (23:21): Engaging across the ideological spectrum and cultivating viewpoint diversity Additional Resources Heather Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press, 2009) MIT Election Data and Science Lab, Elections Performance Index Report of the Trustees of the Ford Foundation, September 27, 1950 Heather Gerken, Why the Ford Foundation Has Committed $60 Million in New Funding to Protect Elections, The Chronicle of Philanthropy, April 14, 2026 Heather Gerken, A New Progressive Federalism, Democracy: A Journal of Ideas, Spring 2012 David Schleicher, From Here All-The-Way-Down, or How to Write a Festschrift Piece, Tulsa Law Review, Spring 2013
March 25 · 45 min
Brian Hooks of Stand Together on Practicing Pluralism in Philanthropy
Brian Hooks is Chairman and CEO of Stand Together and the President of the Charles Koch Foundation. He joins The Art of Association podcast to talk with host Daniel Stid about Stand Together’s efforts to advance pluralism and human flourishing through a vibrant, entrepreneurial civil society. They reflect on Brian’s long partnership with Charles Koch and a new edition of their co-authored book, Believe in People: Bottom-Up Solutions for a Top-Down World. The conversation also explores Be the People, a major new initiative that Stand Together is launching with a broad network of partners. Timed to launch during the nation’s 250th anniversary, Be the People will be a ten-year campaign. Its goal is to strengthen and highlight bottom-up civic renewal. Brian also discusses his cross-ideological collaboration with fellow philanthropists on what he calls “Team Liberalism” to defend pluralism and philanthropic freedom from illiberal critics on both the Left and the Right. Chapters (0:58): Stand Together’s vision, mission and methods for using philanthropy to empower people (3:53): How and why Brian came to work at Stand Together (9:03): Brian’s working relationship with Charles Koch and their principle based approach to management in civil society (13:28): Why Brian and Charles Koch wanted to bring out a new “America at 250” edition of Believe in People (21:20): Purpose and plans for the Be the People initiative and problem-solving platform (31:13): Brian’s spirited defense of philanthropic freedom and pluralism – and the growing threats to them from illiberalism on both the Left and Right (41:32): Whom Brian has learned from in his work Additional Resources Stand Together’s overview of Principle Based Management Charles Koch and Brian Hooks, Believe in People: Bottom-Up Solutions for a Top-Down World, America’s 250th Anniversary Edition, with a new preface by the authors and a new foreword by Martin Luther King III Heather Templeton Dill, Kathleen Enright, Sam Gill, Brian Hooks, Darren Walker, and Elise Westhoff, “We Disagree on Many Things, but We Speak with One Voice in Support of Philanthropic Pluralism,” The Chronicle of Philanthropy, April 13, 2023 Brian Hooks, “In Defense of Philanthropic Freedom,” Stanford Social Innovation Review, June 17, 2025 Larry Kramer, “Listening to the People Who Think We Are Wrong,” Hewlett Foundation blog, January 10, 2019
February 24 · 45 min
Charlie Brown on Supporting Civic Life in Rural and Small Town America
Charlie Brown, Executive Director of the Trust for Civic Life, joins The Art of Association podcast to talk with host Daniel Stid about the Trust’s work. Three years into this initiative, the Trust is off to a great start in pooling funds from national philanthropic funders and in turn regranting them to support bottom up civic renewal efforts, with a special emphasis on rural and small town America. The Trust’s support for “civic hubs” in communities across the country in the form of flexible, multiyear grants makes a point of keeping the initiative with local leaders. These leaders and their organizations are uniquely positioned to use their local knowledge, networks, and accountability to determine priorities, expand participation, and help solve problems in their communities in ways that national funders cannot. The Trust holds that durable civic renewal grows through collaborative action, focusing on small practical wins while avoiding national controversies that have limited local salience. This approach holds great promise for improving our communities and ultimately, as progress accumulates, the civic life of the nation as a whole. Chapters (00:35): The Trust for Civic Life’s mission, origins, funders, and initial development (11:00): Why the Trust focuses on rural and small town America (15:20): How the Trust goes about its work (21:19): The aspirations and career path that brought Charlie to the Trust (23:47): The Trust’s work to navigate divisions and address shared priorities (26:30): What the Trust is learning from its work to date (32:00): How the Trust shares promising ideas and approaches across its network (34:49): How the Trust is fine-tuning its efforts (40:37): Charlie’s vision for the Trust’s impact over the long run (42:56): Who Charlie learns from Resources “Our Common Purpose: Reinventing American Democracy for the 21st Century” (American Academy of Arts and Sciences) Trust for Civic Life website Investing in America’s Civic Hubs (Trust for Civic Life’s 2025 Annual Report)

The Art of Association

Yordanos Eyoel of Keseb on Democracy Entrepreneurship

Hahrie Han of Johns Hopkins University on What Moves People to Act Together

Liz Joyner of The Village Square and Ash Hanson of Department of Public Transformation on “An Invitation to a New Civic Future”

Heather Gerken of the Ford Foundation on Supporting Democracy and the Rule of Law

Brian Hooks of Stand Together on Practicing Pluralism in Philanthropy

Charlie Brown on Supporting Civic Life in Rural and Small Town America