松茸龙门阵｜从禅宗、AI到泥石流：对谈现代正念之父卡巴金教授

9月初，我很幸运地与乔恩·卡巴金教授进行了一场线上对谈，这也是卡巴金教授第一次做客中文播客世界，以往他多在一些国外的电视访谈、专业会议或顶流播客——例如与奥普拉·温弗瑞的多次对谈、PBS特别专题、CBS《60分钟》的专访等节目中现身。我们先保留了珍贵的英文原音，如果大家感觉中文听起来更方便，我们稍晚会尝试制作一期中文配音的版本。 卡巴金教授在正念领域的地位和贡献不需要过多渲染了，可以说，今天遍地开花的各种以「正念」为关键词的产物，都是来源于他上世纪70年代所创办的正念减压疗法MBSR。有些人会称过去几十年这个领域的发展为「正念革命」，从刚开始从零起步到如今全球数以亿计的人学习并投身其中，卡巴金教授与他遍布全球的合作伙伴们是当之无愧的开拓者。 在这场谈话中，我们聊到了禅宗的传承，聊到诗歌和散文，聊到中国在正念推广中的重要地位，聊到中文和英文在构成上的区别以及它们如何影响我们思考的方式，聊到AGI，聊到里尔克、卢梭和赫拉利的作品，聊到《社交困境The Social Dilemma》这部影片，聊到正念的商品化风潮，聊到「地球是一个有生命的整体」；谈到兴头上，教授还亲自领着做了一段6分钟的正念冥想练习，对我而言是十分宝贵的体验。 相比于按某个清晰的大纲去有来有回地采访，我们双方都更希望这场对话是自由流动、自由生长的，就像是一边在森林中散步，一边自在地、缓缓地聊天，不带任何功利心，只是抱持着对彼此、对生命以及对这个世界的好奇和善意。我当然也想将更多的时间留给他的宝贵见解，所以，在收听或观看这期节目时你可能会发现，包括从整理好的时间线上你也可以看出来，这并不是一场我们通常所熟悉的采访，而更像是慢慢地读一本各个章节交相呼应的书，你可以翻到任何一页开始读，并且，也不是所有问题都有唯一的答案，我想邀请你一块专注地聆听卡巴金教授的话语，也许从中我们每个人都能获得不同的启发。 引用卡巴金教授在视频中的一段谈话来结束这篇节目详情：「一个正念的时刻，能够让人们从这一切业力轨迹中解脱出来，以一种对世界、对社会有贡献的方式去活出我们独一无二人生的可能性；实际上，这反过来也有助于个人自身的健康、福祉和快乐。」 时间线： 00:03:07 开场&简单介绍卡巴金教授；正念的禅宗传统之根，以及「正念革命」在今时今日的必须性 00:11:45 《松茸的世界》三周年契机，以及教授对正念播客的看法 00:16:16 教授从21岁开始每日正念冥想，坚持60余年未间断；没有「好的冥想是怎样」、「我该从中感觉到什么」的标准答案 00:18:41 当下这一刻是我们唯一能活着的一刻，正念冥想是一场与生活的爱恋 00:26:52 教授写作时，一些无法用语言表达的东西，通过类似音乐的方式呈现出来；他非常期待机械工业出版社推出《此刻是一枝花》30周年纪念版的中文版本 00:29:44 正念减压疗法MBSR的种子已经成长为枝繁叶茂的参天大树，其中唯一真正重要的就是「正念」二字 00:34:02 以「正念」为关键词的科研成果汗牛充栋，教授肯定了这种繁荣或复兴的意义，但也提示我们：不要忘记真正重要的事情 00:36:49 中国文化在全球正念推广中独一无二的重要地位 00:40:19 正念的商品化潮流 00:43:07 人工智能领域从业者格外需要正念，我们不应轻易地将自身的美丽才能拱手让位技术 00:53:03 卡巴金教授亲自带领进行正念冥想；让生命本身成为正念冥想练习，每个人都拥有通向正念的大门，只需要打开它 01:04:11 当今人们所面临的自我价值实现危机以及各种令人分神的干扰，很难做到「无为」，但也愈发需要正念训练 01:09:37 「不评判」是正念的基石之一，但当今面临紧迫议题时，保持「非评判」是一种智慧，还是有可能导致人们滑向一种危险的冷漠？正念的「全然接纳」与行动的「介入」应该如何平衡？ 01:17:00 正念实则关于解放、关于自由、关于治理，对各国政府以及个人都有意义，人类作为生存在这颗星球上所有生灵共同体中的一份子，正念是值得我们探寻和挖掘的共性；喜马拉雅冰川融化引发的吉隆口岸泥石流灾害正是悬在我们头顶的警钟之一 01:23:54 尾声与告别 In early September, I had the great fortune of having an online conversation with Professor Jon Kabat-Zinn. This was also the first time Professor Kabat-Zinn appeared in the Chinese-language podcast world. Professor Kabat-Zinn's contributions in the field of mindfulness need little embellishment. It is fair to say that many things flourishing today with "mindfulness" as their keyword all trace back to the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) program he founded in the 1970s. Some people call the development of this field over the past few decades a "mindfulness revolution." From starting from zero to the hundreds of millions of people around the world who have now studied and devoted themselves to it, Professor Kabat-Zinn and his partners across the globe are true pioneers. In this conversation, we talked about the Zen lineage, about poetry and prose, about China's important place in the spread of mindfulness, about the structural differences between Chinese and English and how they shape the way we think, about AGI, about the works of Rilke, Rousseau, and Harari, about the film The Social Dilemma, about the commodification of mindfulness, and about "the Earth as a living whole." At one point, Jon personally led a six-minute mindfulness meditation practice—for me, a most precious experience. Rather than conducting a back-and-forth interview according to a clear outline, both of us preferred this conversation to flow and grow freely, like taking a walk in the forest while chatting unhurriedly and at ease, simply holding curiosity and kindness toward each other, toward life, and toward the world. Naturally, I also wanted to leave more time for his valuable insights. So when you listen to or watch this episode, you may notice—and you can see it from the timeline we've prepared—that this is not the kind of interview we are usually familiar with, but more like slowly reading a book whose chapters echo one another. You can open it to any page and start reading, and not every question has a single answer. I would like to invite you to listen attentively to Professor Kabat-Zinn's words; perhaps each of us will take away something different. Timeline: 00:03:07 Opening & a brief introduction to Professor Kabat-Zinn; the Zen roots of mindfulness, and why the "mindfulness revolution" is so necessary today 00:11:45 The third anniversary of Songrong's World and the professor's views on a mindfulness podcast 00:16:16 The professor has practiced mindfulness meditation daily since age 21, without interruption for over 60 years; there is no standard answer to "what a good meditation is like" or "what I should feel from it" 00:18:41 This present moment is the only moment we are ever alive; mindfulness meditation is a love affair with life 00:26:52 When the professor writes, something that cannot be expressed in words is conveyed in a music-like way; he very much looks forward to China Machine Press publishing the Chinese edition of the 30th-anniversary edition of Wherever You Go, There You Are 00:29:44 The seed of MBSR has grown into a thriving system, and the only thing that truly matters in it is the word "mindfulness" 00:34:02 There is a vast body of research with "mindfulness" as its keyword; the professor affirms the meaning of this flourishing, but also reminds us: don't forget what truly matters 00:36:49 The uniquely important place of Chinese culture in the global spread of mindfulness 00:40:19 The commodification of mindfulness 00:43:07 People in the AI field especially need mindfulness; we should not lightly hand over our own beautiful capacities to technology 00:53:03 Professor Kabat-Zinn personally leads a mindfulness meditation; let life itself become the practice of mindfulness meditation—everyone has a door to mindfulness, and only needs to open it 01:04:11 The crisis of self-actualization and the various distractions people face today make it hard to "do nothing," yet mindfulness training is ever more needed 01:09:37 "Non-judging" is one of the foundations of mindfulness, but when facing urgent issues today, is maintaining "non-judgment" a form of wisdom, or could it lead people to slide into a dangerous apathy? How should mindfulness's "full acceptance" and the "engagement" of action be balanced? 01:17:00 Mindfulness is in fact about liberation, about freedom, about governance—meaningful for governments and individuals alike. As human beings, as members of the community of all living beings on this planet, mindfulness is a common ground worth exploring and uncovering; the debris flow triggered by melting Himalayan glaciers is one of the warning bells hanging over our heads 01:23:54 Closing and farewell - 主播：松茸怪🧘‍♀️ 制作人：臀总🧘 欢迎添加松茸怪个人号拉你进入听友群：songrongguai（备注「松茸的世界」） 一起分享练习心得，更欢迎给我们提出建议和反馈。