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Fallthrough · Yesterday · 1 hr 12 min

The Tortoise and the Agent

On this week's episode, Kris and Matt are joined by Fred Hebert and Reid Savage from Honeycomb to talk discuss building products with tiny teams, why code reviews are a useful bottleneck that we should keep around, and how AI mandates make a mistake in risk management. Fred discusses how his team uses vibe-coding to create false work that gets a new product standing on its own. Then the panel discusses having forgiving environments, why production isn't great place to learn, ensuring that worst case scenarios aren't avoided, and why the best use of AI is for personal tooling, not the stuff your team uses. Do you hear that? Yes! That is the sound of supporter content! This week that includes Fred's admission that AI has made his life as an engineer worse, Reid's argument for why managers are definitely sticking around, why we're still going to be buying technology instead of just vibe coding it, and Fred and Reid's must-read book list. Not a supporter yet? Become one today by going to https://fallthrough.fm/subscribe, you'll get extra content in Fallthrough, bonus discussions in Continue, and higher quality audio-only editions! If you prefer to watch this episode, you can view it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/m52ef550Fpg. No episode of the aftershow this week. We'll have more aftershow episodes soon! In the meantime, catch up on previous episodes at https://break.show. Thanks for tuning in and happy listening! Table of Contents: Prologue (00:00:00) Chapter 1: Team Tenant: Don't Be a Poison Pill for SaaS (00:00:47) Chapter 2: False Work: We Pretend That Releases Work (00:02:31) Chapter 3: Meant to Be Thrown Away (00:05:54) Chapter 7: Vocal Critics Because They're Heavy Users (00:07:36) Chapter 8: Substrates of Different Speeds (00:09:46) Chapter 9: Dogfood, Kibble, and a Forgiving Environment (00:13:02) Chapter 10: I Can't Build on This (00:15:07) Chapter 11: Prod Is the Worst Time to Learn (00:18:21) Chapter 12: Blocking Because It's Important (00:21:44) Chapter 13: Five Teams of One (00:23:55) Chapter 14: You Can't Eliminate Incidents (00:27:22) Chapter 18: If It's Not Broke, Don't Fix It (00:28:52) Chapter 19: Who Do We Kill in Space to Save on Earth? (00:30:29) Chapter 20: Carrots and Sticks (00:35:23) Chapter 21: We've Been Bad at Risk Management (00:37:41) Chapter 22: The Problem Isn't Code Review, It's CI (00:40:46) Chapter 24: Get Some of the AI Budget (00:42:45) Chapter 25: The Garbage Cloud (00:45:59) Chapter 26: Put It Behind Auth [Extended] (00:48:59) Chapter 27: Personal Software, Organizational Software (00:51:54) Chapter 28: Workarounds Are a Signal (00:53:58) Chapter 29: Restructure the Puzzle (00:57:54) Chapter 30: Blowing Through the Process (00:59:30) Chapter 31: Learning Out Loud (01:02:49) Chapter 32: An Oversized Sink (01:04:04) Chapter 34: No Novel Problems (01:07:04) Chapter 35: Reading Old Books Is Good (01:08:15) Epilogue (01:10:12) Hosts Matthew Sanabria - Host Kris Brandow - Host Fred Hebert - Guest Reid Savage - Guest Socials: Website Bluesky Threads X/Twitter LinkedIn Instagram TikTok Changelog Zulip Gophers Slack (00:00) - Prologue (00:47) - Chapter 1: Team Tenant: Don't Be a Poison Pill for SaaS (02:31) - Chapter 2: False Work: We Pretend That Releases Work (05:54) - Chapter 3: Meant to Be Thrown Away (07:36) - Chapter 7: Vocal Critics Because They're Heavy Users (09:46) - Chapter 8: Substrates of Different Speeds (13:02) - Chapter 9: Dogfood, Kibble, and a Forgiving Environment (15:07) - Chapter 10: I Can't Build on This (18:21) - Chapter 11: Prod Is the Worst Time to Learn (21:44) - Chapter 12: Blocking Because It's Important (23:55) - Chapter 13: Five Teams of One (27:22) - Chapter 14: You Can't Eliminate Incidents (28:52) - Chapter 18: If It's Not Broke, Don't Fix It (30:29) - Chapter 19: Who Do We Kill in Space to Save on Earth? (35:23) - Chapter 20: Carrots and Sticks (37:41) - Chapter 21: We've Been Bad at Risk Management (40:46) - Chapter 22: The Problem Isn't Code Review, It's CI (42:45) - Chapter 24: Get Some of the AI Budget (45:59) - Chapter 25: The Garbage Cloud (48:59) - Chapter 26: Put It Behind Auth [Extended] (51:54) - Chapter 27: Personal Software, Organizational Software (53:58) - Chapter 28: Workarounds Are a Signal (57:54) - Chapter 29: Restructure the Puzzle (59:30) - Chapter 30: Blowing Through the Process (01:02:49) - Chapter 31: Learning Out Loud (01:04:04) - Chapter 32: An Oversized Sink (01:07:04) - Chapter 34: No Novel Problems (01:08:15) - Chapter 35: Reading Old Books Is Good (01:10:12) - Epilogue

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On this week's episode, Kris and Matt are joined by Fred Hebert and Reid Savage from Honeycomb to talk discuss building products with tiny teams, why code reviews are a useful bottleneck that we should keep around, and how AI mandates make a mistake in risk management.

Fred discusses how his team uses vibe-coding to create false work that gets a new product standing on its own. Then the panel discusses having forgiving environments, why production isn't great place to learn, ensuring that worst case scenarios aren't avoided, and why the best use of AI is for personal tooling, not the stuff your team uses.

Do you hear that? Yes! That is the sound of supporter content! This week that includes Fred's admission that AI has made his life as an engineer worse, Reid's argument for why managers are definitely sticking around, why we're still going to be buying technology instead of just vibe coding it, and Fred and Reid's must-read book list. Not a supporter yet? Become one today by going to https://fallthrough.fm/subscribe, you'll get extra content in Fallthrough, bonus discussions in Continue, and higher quality audio-only editions!

If you prefer to watch this episode, you can view it on YouTube: https://youtu.be/m52ef550Fpg.

No episode of the aftershow this week. We'll have more aftershow episodes soon! In the meantime, catch up on previous episodes at https://break.show.

Thanks for tuning in and happy listening!


Table of Contents:

  • Prologue (00:00:00)
  • Chapter 1: Team Tenant: Don't Be a Poison Pill for SaaS (00:00:47)
  • Chapter 2: False Work: We Pretend That Releases Work (00:02:31)
  • Chapter 3: Meant to Be Thrown Away (00:05:54)
  • Chapter 7: Vocal Critics Because They're Heavy Users (00:07:36)
  • Chapter 8: Substrates of Different Speeds (00:09:46)
  • Chapter 9: Dogfood, Kibble, and a Forgiving Environment (00:13:02)
  • Chapter 10: I Can't Build on This (00:15:07)
  • Chapter 11: Prod Is the Worst Time to Learn (00:18:21)
  • Chapter 12: Blocking Because It's Important (00:21:44)
  • Chapter 13: Five Teams of One (00:23:55)
  • Chapter 14: You Can't Eliminate Incidents (00:27:22)
  • Chapter 18: If It's Not Broke, Don't Fix It (00:28:52)
  • Chapter 19: Who Do We Kill in Space to Save on Earth? (00:30:29)
  • Chapter 20: Carrots and Sticks (00:35:23)
  • Chapter 21: We've Been Bad at Risk Management (00:37:41)
  • Chapter 22: The Problem Isn't Code Review, It's CI (00:40:46)
  • Chapter 24: Get Some of the AI Budget (00:42:45)
  • Chapter 25: The Garbage Cloud (00:45:59)
  • Chapter 26: Put It Behind Auth [Extended] (00:48:59)
  • Chapter 27: Personal Software, Organizational Software (00:51:54)
  • Chapter 28: Workarounds Are a Signal (00:53:58)
  • Chapter 29: Restructure the Puzzle (00:57:54)
  • Chapter 30: Blowing Through the Process (00:59:30)
  • Chapter 31: Learning Out Loud (01:02:49)
  • Chapter 32: An Oversized Sink (01:04:04)
  • Chapter 34: No Novel Problems (01:07:04)
  • Chapter 35: Reading Old Books Is Good (01:08:15)
  • Epilogue (01:10:12)


Hosts


Socials:
  • (00:00) - Prologue
  • (00:47) - Chapter 1: Team Tenant: Don't Be a Poison Pill for SaaS
  • (02:31) - Chapter 2: False Work: We Pretend That Releases Work
  • (05:54) - Chapter 3: Meant to Be Thrown Away
  • (07:36) - Chapter 7: Vocal Critics Because They're Heavy Users
  • (09:46) - Chapter 8: Substrates of Different Speeds
  • (13:02) - Chapter 9: Dogfood, Kibble, and a Forgiving Environment
  • (15:07) - Chapter 10: I Can't Build on This
  • (18:21) - Chapter 11: Prod Is the Worst Time to Learn
  • (21:44) - Chapter 12: Blocking Because It's Important
  • (23:55) - Chapter 13: Five Teams of One
  • (27:22) - Chapter 14: You Can't Eliminate Incidents
  • (28:52) - Chapter 18: If It's Not Broke, Don't Fix It
  • (30:29) - Chapter 19: Who Do We Kill in Space to Save on Earth?
  • (35:23) - Chapter 20: Carrots and Sticks
  • (37:41) - Chapter 21: We've Been Bad at Risk Management
  • (40:46) - Chapter 22: The Problem Isn't Code Review, It's CI
  • (42:45) - Chapter 24: Get Some of the AI Budget
  • (45:59) - Chapter 25: The Garbage Cloud
  • (48:59) - Chapter 26: Put It Behind Auth [Extended]
  • (51:54) - Chapter 27: Personal Software, Organizational Software
  • (53:58) - Chapter 28: Workarounds Are a Signal
  • (57:54) - Chapter 29: Restructure the Puzzle
  • (59:30) - Chapter 30: Blowing Through the Process
  • (01:02:49) - Chapter 31: Learning Out Loud
  • (01:04:04) - Chapter 32: An Oversized Sink
  • (01:07:04) - Chapter 34: No Novel Problems
  • (01:08:15) - Chapter 35: Reading Old Books Is Good
  • (01:10:12) - Epilogue
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