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Dancing with Systems · August 5 · 42 min

S1.E2: How Technology Is Shaping Every Global System Transition

AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of key systems transition. AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at. Guests Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility What We Cover Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies Key Quotes "We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower "AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt "Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt References Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net Climate Collective: climatecollective.org Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy" Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems This Episode's Dance The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers. Next episode: The Food System Transition

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AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of
key systems transition.

AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at.

Guests

Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business

Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility

What We Cover

  • Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment
  • How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short
  • Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments
  • The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines
  • What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals
  • Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies

Key Quotes

"We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower

"AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

"Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

References

  • Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net
  • Climate Collective: climatecollective.org
  • Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy"
  • Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems

This Episode's Dance

The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers.

Next episode: The Food System Transition 

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