What if a vaccine could help treat cancer?

In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore how personalised cancer vaccines are being developed, and how genomics and AI could help make these treatments more precise. Our host, Florence Cornish is joined by: Dr Victoria Goss, Associate Professor of Early Diagnosis and Translational Research at Southampton Clinical Trials Unit and head of the Southampton Clinical Trials Unit Cancer Vaccine Launchpad team Professor Lennard Lee, Associate professor at the University of Oxford, Consultant Medical Oncologist, NHS Ali Richards, a participant who took part in a cancer vaccine clinical trial Together they discuss how cancer vaccines train the immune system to recognise cancer, how genomic information can help identify the unique features of an individual’s tumour, and how AI could help researchers analyse genomic data and accelerate the development of new cancer vaccines. “The reason I said yes was because my treatment really was punishing. It was so many side effects to it. The cancer never made me feel sick, but the treatment made me really sick. So I said yes because I just wanted to help other people not have to go through what I went through.” Transcript [00:00:00] Florence: What if a vaccine could help treat cancer? Hello and welcome to Behind the Genes, the podcast that brings you the stories, research, and innovations shaping the future of genomic healthcare. Today, we're going to be talking about cancer vaccines, how they're being developed with the help of AI, what role genomics has to play, and what it could mean for patients. [00:00:23] Florence: I'm Florence Cornish, and joining me today we have Dr Victoria Goss, who leads cancer vaccine research at Southampton Clinical Trials Unit; we have Professor Lennard Lee, who is a medical oncologist and Associate Professor at the University of Oxford; and Ali Richards, who took part in the Southampton Cancer Vaccine Programme. [00:00:45] Florence: I think before we get into cancer vaccines specifically, it might be good to start with the basics. So vaccines are something most of us have heard of and probably experienced as well, but we don't always necessarily understand how they work. So Lennard, can I come to you to explain what a vaccine actually is, how it works with our immune system, maybe at the most basic level for those who might not have a scientific background? [00:01:19] Lennard: Thanks, Florence. What's a vaccine? Very, very simply, something that protects your body from disease. We've had a few when we were younger, like which protects you against meningitis or hepatitis or different types of infections that can affect children. [00:01:36] Lennard: And it really does show that your immune system is really powerful. Every day, it looks around trying to work out what's there which shouldn't be there and takes care of it. And ideally, your immune system just works in the background without causing any problems. And so what a vaccine does is it really helps the body understand something that's abnormal. [00:01:55] Lennard: And the vision here is that you can use this technology to hopefully patrol against cancer, because half the people out there will never get cancer. They are the maybe the lucky ones or maybe the ones with a good immune response. And so a vaccine is basically giving your immune system a wanted poster: [00:02:11] Lennard: "This is what threat looks like. This is what you need to control". [00:02:16] Florence: And I think you mentioned some great examples there. There are lots of common examples of vaccines people might have heard of. I think maybe the flu vaccine is probably a common one that people are thinking about in the wintertime. I think another one is maybe the HPV vaccine. [00:02:29] Florence: Lennard, could you explain a bit more to our listeners about the HPV vaccine? What it is, how it works? I think people often think of it as a type of cancer vaccine, but actually it's targeting a virus. Is that right? [00:02:41] Lennard: Yeah, that's correct. So this is now a vaccine which has been rolled out across the NHS, and it's actually worked really well to get rid of a few cancer types, which is incredible. [00:02:51] Lennard: And why is that important? Well, cancer can be caused by many, many different things. Sometimes it's because you've done things like smoking or weight plays a role or just bad luck or the genes that you've inherited. But some cancer types are caused by viruses. And so many people nowadays are getting the HPV vaccine to stop cancer types like cervical cancer, hopefully head and neck cancer, and many of the rarer cancer types. [00:03:21] Lennard: And so again, what you're doing here is you're taking the immune response, telling it the body shouldn't get this virus and hopefully prevent some of the bad consequence of getting this viral infection, like cancers. [00:03:33] Florence: Thank you. That's really helpful to understand. So we've talked about how vaccines can be used to treat viruses, and I think most of us, when we hear the word ‘vaccine’, we probably do associate it with something that stops us from getting ill. [00:03:46] Florence: Victoria, could you tell us about how vaccines could be used to treat cancer? [00:03:50] Victoria: Yeah, absolutely, and it is great to be here today. Thank you. So Lennard's already sort of spoken about preventative vaccines, and when we think about cancer vaccines, we're thinking about therapeutic vaccines. So we're thinking about training the immune system to recognise the cancer as something that needs to be dealt with because cancer is really tricky because it's our own cells that have gone wrong, if you like. [00:04:16] Victoria: But that means it also is very good at evading those signals which tell the immune system that it needs to be cleared. So the analogy that Lennard has already given of a cancer vaccine sort of creating a wanted poster sort of builds on an analogy from one of your previous podcasts where they described the immune system as like the police almost trying to catch criminals, which are the cancer cells. [00:04:41] Victoria: And the cancer vaccine analogy builds on that. So you've created a wanted poster which is training and giving the police more information about what those cancer cells look like. And then when we think about building on that with sort of personalised cancer vaccines, which is an incredibly exciting step when we think about the development of how cancer vaccines can be used, sort of really individualised therapy going forward, that wanted poster gets even more specific. [00:05:07] Victoria: It's almost like giving a phone number or an address for that specific cancer type that is very specific to that patient. So the therapeutic vaccine is, is targeting the immune system. It's training our immune system to recognise the cancer as something that needs to be dealt with. [00:05:26] Florence: It's funny you mentioned that analogy because I was just about to point listeners to that episode. If anyone wants to learn more about cancer vaccines specifically, you can check out our previous Genomics 101 podcast episode called ‘What Are Cancer Vaccines?’ So Ali, I think I'd love to bring you in at this point because you have experienced this from the patient side of things. [00:05:49] Florence: Could you tell us a little bit about your journey, your cancer diagnosis and treatment, and maybe more about the clinical trial you were part of, if you feel comfortable sharing that? [00:05:57] Ali: Yeah, sure. Hi, Florence. It was Christmas 2015, and I felt a lump in my neck. And maybe because I'm a woman and we're always taught to treat lumps seriously, in the January I made an appointment with the GP, and she very quickly fast-tracked me through to the hospital. [00:06:19] Ali: And January 2016, I got a diagnosis. It was a tumour on the base of my tongue at the left, and I was told it was caused by a variation of the HPV virus. So yeah, that was all a bit of a shock. I was shocked and I was scared, but I was also really angry because I look after myself. I eat well, all those things. [00:06:45] Ali: It's just bad luck that it was a virus that my body couldn't deal with. I just, I felt guilty as well because of what I was gonna put the family through. So I had various scans and tests. I had an operation to remove my tonsils, although we soon discovered there weren't any left anyway. And they took a biopsy, which I didn't know at the time, but turned out to be important later on for the trial. [00:07:15] Ali: Then I had to have a whole load of prep beforehand because of the impact of the treatment. So I had to have restorative dentistry, audiology tests. I had a PEG fitted, that's a feeding tube, in my stomach, and I thought, "Surely it's not going to be this bad." But that PEG, that feeding tube was a blessing in the end. [00:07:40] Ali: And I had a mask made, and the mask fits you and basically pins you down to the radiotherapy table so you don't move when... because it's very precisely targeted at your tumour. So yeah, I went on to have five sessions of chemo, which felt quite easy. The radiotherapy was the really, really tough part. I had, uh, seven weeks of it, 35 sessions. [00:08:08] Ali: So that was, yeah, that was a challenge. [00:08:11] Florence: Thank you, Ali. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's always really valuable to get that patient perspective when we're talking about things like this. Lennard, I wanted to come back to you now to talk about the different types of vaccines that exist and which ones are being used specifically in the treatment of cancer. [00:08:30] Lennard: Um, thanks, Florence. And Ali, are you 10 years now down the line since your diagnosis? [00:08:34] Ali: Yeah, it feels good. [00:08:37] Lennard: Congratulations. [00:08:38] Ali: Yeah, yeah. It feels good. I really valued the follow-up checks that I had, both from my oncologist, but also I got some through the trial, and it really helped restore some confidence in myself and my body to deal with things and to be able to move on as well. [00:08:56] Lennard: Oh, well done. That's fantastic because you telling us that story just really brings it to life about how scary this can be and also the fact that you had to go through all those sessions, thirty-five sessions and, um, and now you're 10 years down the line and still talking and giving hope- [00:09:11] Ali: Yeah ... [00:09:11] Lennard: that new technology still comes, so thanks, Ali. [00:09:13] Ali: That's a pleasure. [00:09:14] Lennard: Um, yeah, so Frances, this is what's really exciting. What types of vaccines are there? Well, first thing to say is that we're really good in this country about vaccine research. If you look around the world, what are we good at? Well, everyone knows that we developed the pandemic vaccine, and actually that technology is something that we can control. [00:09:31] Lennard: We're world leaders at. It's quite cheap technology, and it's something that we are really good at bringing to patients. And Ali's our testament where she got on the trial, she helped test it and really pioneered new ways of research. So what types of vaccines are there? Well, I think we talked to the first bit where Victoria taught us that some of them can treat cancers and some of them can maybe prevent cancers. [00:09:53] Lennard: And the HPV's one which is maybe be able to do both one day, which is brilliant. What would like... what else do people know about? Well, people might know that there are different types of technologies. So if we think back a few years now, back to 2020, there are some which are viral-based, and some which are mRNA based. [00:10:12] Lennard: Both of these were new technologies which the whole population of the world came together to create and some of them are peptide-based. So there's probably three different types here. The protein ones or peptide one, which you always had, and then in the last five years, it's an incredible time to be alive, where new vaccine technology comes through, it's more effective and safer. [00:10:32] Lennard: These are the viral ones and mRNA ones, and everyone's now pursuing all of these to try and make sure that we can maybe treat cancer in future. [00:10:41] Florence: Can I possibly pick your brain a little bit more about the mRNA ones specifically? I think as you mentioned, lots of people might have heard of those during COVID. [00:10:50] Florence: Could you maybe explain a little bit more about those and how they work? [00:10:53] Lennard: Yeah. So this is going to take us all the way back to GCE biology now. If you remember - and we are Genomics England, so we, we got to work out why genomics is important, and we'll probably get to this. But remember, genes make RNA, which then makes protein. [00:11:11] Lennard: And so if you're trying to reprogramme the immune response, you could give your body a protein, the back end of it. You can maybe give it an RNA, which is a blueprint too. And so what an mRNA vaccine is, it's a way of giving the blueprint or the instructions to the body of what to recognise, what the cancer looks like, um, um, or what the virus looks like, and target it. [00:11:32] Lennard: If you want the analogy, well, for those people who had the pandemic vaccines, the ones which was mRNA based was, uh, the Pfizer one, and that worked really, really well. Cheap to make, easy to produce, and, uh, it's just a jab. And so people are now exploring that for cancer treatment now. Take new technology, which has only been developed five years ago, technology, which is just a blueprint, cheap to make, easy to update, and now we're targeting cancer. [00:11:59] Lennard: Um, so that's basically what an mRNA vaccine is, giving the body the blueprint or the instruction of what a cancer looks like and trying to target that cancer. [00:12:08] Florence: And you kind of alluded to it a little bit in your answer, but, um, it would be good to know more about where genomics comes into all of this. You know, why is it such an important part of developing vaccines? [00:12:18] Lennard: And that's a great question, and really comes back to our second strengths, which is that we're really good at vaccine research, and yet we are also world leaders at genomic research. It's a really exciting time because, um, when Victoria and me and Ally at school, we would-- we, we learnt about that race to sequence the first human genome. [00:12:38] Lennard: It was really exciting because for the first time, we can see every single genetic base in every human, and that used to cost billions of pounds to do that, and it would take many months or years to do that Fast-forward a few years, and then now Genomics England delivered the next success for humanity. [00:12:57] Lennard: I think it was about 2015 to 2017 where they, they did 100,000 Genome Project, where the UK led the world in sequencing 100,000 people, including people with cancer, to try and understand what caused their cancer, what the risk factors are. And why is that relevant now? Well, it's because if you know what a cancer looks like, then you know what the abnormality is, well, then you can vaccinate against it. [00:13:22] Lennard: So we've now gone from this amazing arc of discovery here, where when we were at school, we worked out what the human genome looks like. We can sequence it end to end and see in all its detail. Then a, an amazing organisation came out the ground called Genomic England, which shows that you can run it in the NHS. [00:13:39] Lennard: 100,000 people could do it. And now we're making the next big jump now, which is it's not just going to give you a diagnosis, but maybe becomes a drug and a vaccine in future. And actually, probably it already has because Ali's that example, a success example of it happening. [00:13:54] Florence: Yeah, I wanted to actually ask you about that, Ali. [00:13:56] Florence: So just as you were saying, Lennard, it kind of... The cancer vaccine sounds quite futuristic, but as you said, it's, it's sort of already happening. So Ali, do you remember kind of how you first heard about the cancer vaccine trial? [00:14:11] Ali: Yeah. I had a bit of an unfortunate time because after all that radio and chemo, my cancer still hadn't gone, and I had to have an operation to remove lymph nodes. [00:14:22] Ali: But my oncologist at Poole Hospital, who's a fantastic woman, she had been involved, unknown to me, in the some of the thinking behind the trial, and particularly that she could recruit people because they were sat in her office. So she asked me if I'd like to take part, and without knowing anything, I said yes. [00:14:49] Ali: And the reason I said yes was because my treatment really was punishing. It was so many side effects to it. The cancer never made me feel sick, but the treatment made me really sick. So I said yes because I just wanted to help other people not have to go through what I went through. I didn't really understand it, if I'm perfectly honest. [00:15:16] Ali: I didn't really know what was going on, but then I'm not, you know, a super brain like Lennard and Victoria. I knew that I just wanted to do something to help people going forward, not having to deal with the same. So yeah, I put my hand up and there I was on the trial. [00:15:37] Florence: So you mentioned there the, the really horrible side effects that you got from your original treatment. Did you have, um, what was your experience with side effects with the vaccine? Was it similar? Was it different? [00:15:47] Ali: Oh, no, the, the vaccine was like a holiday compared to the treatment. Absolutely. At, at worst, in the first few treatments, you felt a bit like you had a cold, bad cold coming on, maybe slightly flu-y, but you took, you were given Ibuprofen at the same time as you had the vaccine. [00:16:10] Ali: So no, it, the treatment with the vaccine was an absolute breeze. Which is kind of like, yes, this is what I want for people. You know, not, not the radiotherapy, not the chemo. So yeah, it was, it was really very easy by comparison. [00:16:29] Florence: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that that was your experience. I'm just curious now also, was there anything that surprised you about the trial? [00:16:35] Florence: You said there that you didn't really, like, have an understanding of cancer vaccines. You, you agreed to it straight away. Was there anything that maybe, like, you weren't expecting or surprised you? [00:16:45] Ali: I think it surprised me that it was really quite easy. [00:16:48] Florence: Yeah. [00:16:49] Ali: Uh, I was delighted to have the team I had looking after me because they were fantastic. It all felt very simple. [00:16:59] Ali: And how nice that was. You know, if I could've had that instead of all my previous treatments, um, it would've, it would've made everyone's life so much easier. And I guess, I don't know about the cost of drugs, but I guess the cost to the NHS would've been less because I wasn't in and out of hospital, I wasn't having to have all these extra things done, and all this extra support like dieticians and so on because I had to have my feed tube replaced. [00:17:35] Ali: So all of that is impacts on the NHS, whereas this was very simple. [00:17:40] Florence: I wanted to come to you now, Victoria, and ask you about the outcomes of this trial that Ali took part in or other trials like it, and whether we know yet what the broader implications of, of these advances might be. [00:17:55] Victoria: So I think what we need to think about when we're thinking about developing these treatments and sort of evaluating the treatments at each stage is that it goes through a very clear pathway of progression, and Ali was involved in one of the, the earliest stages of that progression. [00:18:09] Victoria: And it's, it's always amazing to me to hear your story, Ali, and to know that patients are willing to take part in the research and that's what allows us to develop these treatments. So the trial that Ali was part of has now gone on to develop into a, a larger scale study which will be evaluated again. [00:18:27] Victoria: And that all starts to form the evidence for how these treatments can be shown to be effective, and also how they can show... Also, you know, Ali's already touched on there about the cost implications, so how we can show that that can be beneficial as well. And then we can start to think about how they can be taken up and become part of routine standard of care for patients like Ali, as she was describing. [00:18:50] Victoria: And all of that evidence comes together, which then gets evaluated and then it, and then it moves forward through that progression. But it's-- we have very clear, um, you know, a, a route that each new, new treatment has to go through, um, to be able to, to become part of standard of care. [00:19:07] Florence: And Victoria, you also play a key role in the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad. [00:19:12] Florence: For any listeners who might not be familiar with the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad, could you maybe tell us a little bit more about it? [00:19:18] Victoria: Absolutely. So in its simplest terms, the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad is designed to help find patients who might be eligible to take part in trials like the one that Ali was part of. [00:19:30] Victoria: It's an incredible project. Cancer Vaccine Launchpad is quite long, so we tend to abbreviate it to the CVLP, which I'll do from now on, if that's okay. The CVLP to me really demonstrates the power of collaboration because it's brought together so many different teams that have been necessary to make sure that, that what we're trying to achieve, so finding as many patients as possible for these trials, is possible. [00:19:52] Victoria: We deliver this project on behalf of NHS England. I know that Lennard was involved right from the start as well. The reason that we need the CVLP is because one of the biggest challenges in research of these new treatments is finding the patients who might be eligible. So one of the reasons for that is because when we are running the trials to test these new treatments, there's a lot of different infrastructure that's needed to support the delivery of those trials. [00:20:19] Victoria: So you need special pharmacy services, special research nurses. All of that has to come together to be able to deliver trials of new treatments. And actually, that means that actually those studies can often only take part in a small number of hospitals. So historically, you only had the opportunity to take part in those trials if you lived near one of those hospitals, which is, you know, like Ali did. [00:20:42] Victoria: So what the CVLP is, what, what it has done, it has created a formalised network which enables referrals to happen from ... we're opening 83 hospitals now across England. We've just expanded out to the devolved nations as well, which is a really exciting development, and it creates that, that network which allows patients who might live further away from a hospital delivering one of those vaccine or immunology trials to be able to be referred in to see if they might be eligible. [00:21:09] Victoria: So essentially, it's a bit like creating a big funnel. So you're finding all of the potentially eligible people that could take part in that trial, and you're funnelling them into the trial site to find those patients who are eligible. [00:21:22] Florence: And what impact do you hope that this could have for the NHS and also for, like, individual patients as well? [00:21:29] Victoria: So we've seen such positive results from the CVLP so far. The first study that we worked with was for a colorectal cancer vaccine trial. Before the CVLP started working with this trial, only 17% of the eligible patient population in England had the opportunity to take part because they lived near one of those hospitals delivering the trial. [00:21:52] Victoria: After the CVLP started working with it, we had increased that to over 60% of the eligible patient population. So you could really see how it has expanded out access, and that's just a fantastic opportunity to be able to bring, to bring patients. We also were able to show that the UK was screening, so looking for patients at three times the global average. [00:22:14] Victoria: So we really were able to see how the CVLP is supporting and accelerating recruitment to those trials I think the key thing for me has been the patient enthusiasm that we have seen though. So when we open up to a new trial where, that the CVRP is working with, we are always inundated with people who contact us to find out how they can be part of this network because they want the opportunity to take part. [00:22:40] Victoria: We know that some patients have travelled for two hours to a trial site to find out if they could be eligible because actually they want the opportunity. So the CVRP has really sort of enabled that patient choice, which is a fantastic thing to be able to do. But it also builds on what Lennard was talking about earlier, which is the UK is really good at this research and actually what the CVRP is then doing is showing how we can really support recruitment to these trials to accelerate these trials and that only brings more trials to the UK which again creates more opportunities for patients which is exactly what we're trying to do. [00:23:14] Victoria: We're trying to create more and more opportunities for patients to take part in these studies if they want to. [00:23:20] Florence: Yeah. That's really incredible. Thank you for sharing that with us. I wanted to ask you a question now, Ali, because I think when we were talking about trials and projects like this, as Victoria said, we often think about kind of the high level impact, but also it's an opportunity to create connections as well between patients and families and, and I know that you, you had a patient's family reach out to you about advice as to-- about whether they should take part in a trial. Is that right? [00:23:47] Ali: Yeah. I think it was the wife of a guy up in Liverpool who had throat cancer, and, um, she must have done some really good research on the internet. I'd done various bits of publicity both for Southampton Uni and cancer research around the trial. So she obviously found me and then stalked me on Facebook , which was absolutely fine. [00:24:13] Ali: I didn't have a problem. So her husband was down to go on the trial, which is the next stage that Victoria had spoken about, and she just wanted to know, would I recommend it, would-- what was it like, that kind of thing. So I said to her, "I would absolutely recommend it, of course," and told her what my experience was. [00:24:35] Ali: I couldn't guarantee his would be the same, of course, because things might have moved on. But it was a really, it was a kind of a nice feeling that I could say to her, "Get him to have it done because it's got to be the best outcome." I think his stage was much further on than me. So yeah, it had to be the way as far as I could see for him. And as far as I know, he went on the trial. Which is great. [00:25:05] Florence: How, how did it feel to kind of make that human connection, maybe not something you were expecting to come out of a trial? [00:25:13] Ali: No, it was really, it was really nice. I am a bit of a, a fangirl for, for Lennard and Victoria and all the team at Southampton. [00:25:22] Ali: If anybody asks me about vaccines and cancer vaccines, I'm like, "Oh, yes." And you-- So yeah, I'm, I'm a bit of an evangelist. So to, to have somebody real- [00:25:33] Florence: Mm ... [00:25:34] Ali: ask me about that was great feeling. [00:25:37] Florence: I think that's a, a really great example of how research can have impact far beyond, uh, one individual. And I think another great example of this is also artificial intelligence or AI as a potentially transformative force in, in healthcare. [00:25:54] Florence: Lennard, when we come onto this topic, I wanted to hand over to you because I know that you've recently received funding for a project exploring AI, and how it could support cancer vaccine development in particular. Could you tell us a bit more about this project? [00:26:08] Lennard: Thanks very much, Florence. And I also want to add, I feel very proud about what Ali did just there, where she's able to bring through opportunity for other people, too, which is amazing. [00:26:19] Lennard: The NHS is there to not just do the technology of today, but also be one of the best healthcare systems in the world to bring through new technologies. And it's just really exciting about people wanting to help the NHS, advocating for new technologies to be tested, and actually that's what Genomics England i there to do, make sure the NHS gets new technology in there so that patients will get new treatments. [00:26:41] Lennard: I just wanna just reflect what Victoria noted In the NHS, in their Cancer Vaccine Launchpad, patients are getting in at three times the rate of other countries. [00:26:51] Ali: Mm-hmm. [00:26:52] Lennard: That's really special. And also she's increased coverage to, uh, did you say 60% of population? That's 42 million people have potential access to this. [00:27:01] Lennard: So that is huge, and I think it's really a passion project for so many people out there, PICT trials units, the research nurses and doctors, and also patients who make this all happen. So it is quite impressive. It is very impressive. Oh, yes, and AI. I probably should cover that too. Just beyond what's special about the NHS and Genomics England. [00:27:22] Lennard: Well, AI I think is changing everything. I went to a garden party, and actually everyone's talking about how they're using AI to make their lives simpler, make them do things that they've never been able to do before, get the information instantaneously there. And I think that there's technologies which come through every so often in our lifetimes, which changes how we think, how we communicate, and actually makes us better in many ways. [00:27:47] Lennard: And so the great opportunity here is what happens if we take that third strength now? So we've already said we're really good at vaccine research in the UK. The UK invented vaccines. We also are world leaders at genomics. We did the 100,000 Genome Project. What happens if we use this new technology now? [00:28:06] Lennard: And what's a problem that we can solve? Well, let's say we did a whole genome sequence on someone, which is what Genomics England does every day for the NHS. Well, that creates a lot of data. Um, I tried to do the calculations before we went online. It's about 100,000 photos. You know, when you take on your phone, that's a lot of data. [00:28:25] Florence: Wow. Yeah. [00:28:26] Lennard: And that's a miracle what's happening in the NHS and Genomic England, and we need to make a cancer vaccine out of that. And so you need to process that. So that's time-consuming. It could be automated. And so what AI could do now in future is that we could use the supercomputer we built in the UK. [00:28:43] Lennard: In fact, we are doing this already. We've built supercomputers in the UK, and we're going well beyond other tools out there and designing cancer vaccines. And the AI scientists which can do that can do it at weekends, at nights, and help design the drugs. And so what it does is it heralds a future where every patient can contribute into a model that's created in the UK, stored safely in our supercomputers. [00:29:07] Lennard: It can now be made into drugs, and the UK will start to make things again, which will hopefully change cancer care across the world. We can deliver that legacy whereby our three strongest strengths come together - vaccines, AI, and genomics. It then super powers the NHS and everything that Victoria's done in the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad, so many millions of people around the world can get access to trials. [00:29:31] Lennard: And people like Ali can also help hold up the NHS even further. So people once again look back to us and say, "If you want to get things done, come to the NHS because it provides world-class care for patients." And so that's a big initiative now. Use AI to make better drugs, safer drugs, more effective, more precise in the UK. And it's only possible because of everything that we've built here with our funders, ARIA, MRC, Cancer Research UK, people raising, raising money through cake bake sales to make this happen. [00:30:02] Lennard: So it's very exciting. [00:30:04] Florence: Yeah. I think AI can be a topic that people often have very strong opinions about. When it comes to AI in, in your line of work, are there any misconceptions you think people might have, or are there any benefits to using it that maybe people might not be aware of? [00:30:21] Lennard: Oh, that's a tricky question, isn't it? I think you're right. Any tool that comes through can be used for good things and, and things that people will question because maybe we don't want to cross those boundaries. And yet I think what we're doing here is really special because we want to - as long as your heart's in the right place - we want to give more people like Ali hope so that she knows that one day the drugs in the NHS will be much safer so you don't get all those side effects, much more effective, much more precise. [00:30:52] Lennard: And on top of that, people like Victoria will be able to bring even more trials in the UK which will change lives and change practices around the world through an amazing working launchpad. So I think that's the right use of AI, make people's lives better. I think there are other uses of AI which I probably scratch my head and say, "Well, should we be doing that?" [00:31:10] Lennard: And that's what I think it's really special that we do think about these and talk about these things here, and then bring the public with us because I know that people reach out, and Ali's been reached out in the past before, and I think we need to have this discussion here. Is AI right to develop cancer drugs using capabilities from Genomic England to go through the NHS Cancer Vaccine Launchpad? [00:31:31] Lennard: I say cautiously, yes, and we should do more of this. And I think the most important thing is there's a lot of people starting to use AI for benefit, and you know my views, Ali, and I don't know if they're right. Um, I'll be a bit cautious, but I do want to ask you, Ali, is this the right use of AI? Should this be what we develop? [00:31:50] Lennard: I don't know what you're going to say. [00:31:52] Ali: For me, I think it is. I do think AI is a bit if you put rubbish in, you get rubbish out. But if you- If you ask the right questions, if you give it data analysis and experts like you have set up the protocol in the first place and it makes everything faster and reliable, then it's got to be the right thing. [00:32:16] Ali: It gets used and abused for things, that isn't what AI should be doing, in my opinion. It should be used to do-- to help us, to supplement the work that we're doing, uh, and make it even faster than you're already making it. [00:32:38] Florence: Well, we've covered so much today from how vaccines work to the role of genomics, NHS trials, and of course, what all of this could lead to. So before we wrap up, I have two final questions for each of you. What do you think is the most important thing for listeners to understand and take away from personalised cancer vaccines? [00:33:01] Florence: And what are your hopes for the future? I think we'll start with you, Victoria, if that's all right. [00:33:08] Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. It's been a great conversation. Uh, there's so much to think about. I think when I think about what I'd like listeners to take away, I think it's that cancer vaccines, and particularly personalised cancer vaccines, really support and represent this paradigm shift that we're seeing towards a much more personalised, uh, treatment pathway. [00:33:27] Victoria: You know, like we've described, generating a cancer vaccine that has come from the patient's tumour, so the, the, the vaccine is, is designed to recognise mutations that are specific to that patient. It is such an incredible thing to be sort of witnessing and to see how that's developing through into sort of really changing patient care, and that's, you know, we've spoken about this so much, but that's been due to such incredible collaboration across scientific disciplines, across the NHS, pathologists. [00:33:58] Victoria: Everyone has come together to make all of this possible, and that's, that's an amazing thing to be a part of. In terms of my hopes for the future, well, I would like the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad to be open in every hospital across the UK to really sort of underpin that acceleration and to provide that opportunity for patients. [00:34:17] Victoria: You know, I'd just like to give a, a final shout-out to everybody who has been part of the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad from its very start, who's enabled this to happen and, you know, it's just been fantastic to see how this has, you know, supported patient choice for trials. And I guess if there's one tiny other thing, perhaps we could see how this, you know, this, what we've put together could be applied to other disease areas as well. [00:34:39] Victoria: But yeah, that, that would be my hope for the future, is it's open everywhere one day. [00:34:43] Florence: And Ali, I'll come over to you next. [00:34:45] Ali: I think what I'd say to any patient that was asked to go on a trial is, is just go for it. [00:35:02] Ali: And you know, Victoria, Lennard, all the rest of the team, you know, you are not doing jobs. You're leaving a legacy in my view. That's such an important thing. So yeah, if you're offered a trial, get on it. And my hope for the future is that everybody can have kinder, gentler treatments. The radiologists and chemo nurses I came across were lovely, lovely people. [00:35:31] Ali: But yes, I'd like to see them out of work and doing other things within the NHS because they don't need to do that work anymore. That, that's my dream. [00:35:40] Florence: Mm. And Lennard, any, any final thoughts? [00:35:44] Lennard: Thanks, Ali. I mean, your words gave me goosebumps about the amazing stuff that the whole community's doing for cancer vaccines, AI and genomic research. [00:35:51] Lennard: It's so powerful. Um, okay. What's the final thing? I think it's hope. Look, the country's in a new place now. You've got brilliant scientists running clinical trials, like the Cancer Vaccine Launchpad, which is reaching out to every single hospital. You've got patients who are building up the NHS again to deliver future care, and scientists using AI and genomics to make cancer vaccines. [00:36:11] Lennard: That is a good reason to be hopeful. When lots of things are going in other places of the world, great things are happening in the UK. [00:36:20] Florence: This has been such a brilliant conversation. [00:36:25] Florence: A huge, huge thank you to our guests today, Dr. Victoria Goss, Professor Lennard Lee, and Ali Richards, for joining me in our brilliant discussion about cancer vaccines. [00:36:50] Victoria: Thank you so much for having me. [00:36:55] Ali: Thank you, as always. I've learnt a lot. [00:37:00] Lennard: Thank you very much, Florence, too, from me. [00:37:10] Florence: If listeners have enjoyed this episode and you'd like to hear more, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. [00:37:16] Florence: I've been your host, Florence Cornish, and Behind the Genes is produced by Deanna Barac, Sharon Jones, Sophie McLachlan, and Patrick Wallace at Bespoken Media. Thank you for listening.